BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

killer3

I am moving down from a 2002 528i (which I love) and thought I would get a 325i, which I test drove and rreally liked; but the salesman called and said that with the current leasing terms the 330i is very do-able, and therefore should consider getting a 330i. However, since the 330i has the sport suspension, it will be stiffer than the 325i, which might make it uncomfortable for a daily driver in pot-holed New England. Also, when I did the Ultimate Test drive a couple of years ago, I remember preferring the 325 to the 330. I really like my 2000 528i without the sport suspension. What do you guys & gals think? Also will changing to a 16" tire soften up the ride a little? I do not want to make major changes because I am leasing, but wheels are a definate possibility if they will soften the ride a little.

Thanks for your thought!

brave1heart

kominsky - LOL! You can't blame me for trying, though. I would've loved to get away with a $50 fuzzy dice al least ( Yes, I have the ECIS CAI and RD front strut brace. I'd like to have the M3 steering wheel too but I think that having an M3 badge in a 325 is pretentious, esp. considering that it will be in front of me at all times.

doctor - If I had an E46 M3, I would not touch it. It's supposed to be perfect as it is. And there's something else about mods too - they can be very addictive. Worse, they can make you like your car less sometimes because the more you change the car, the more you become aware of its imperfections ;o)

No turbo BMWs for me, thank you.

killer3 - the more rubber your tires have, the cushier the ride. Then again, I honestly can't understand why you're buying a BMW. FWIW, I've been driving in pot-holed New England for 12 years and I've only had a bent rim once (going through the Big Dig).

leenelsonmd

killer3: Ive never heard anyone criticize the 330 suspension. The M3 is pretty stiff, true, and the 330 is stiffer than the 325, but it is perfect for almost any kind of driving. It is even better on the potholes.

getz2: I'm PGY5 in neurosurg. Good luck with your residency.

seivwrig: The stealth of the M cars is terrific. I love the fact that they pack such a punch, yet they look so unassuming.

I think I will leave my car untouched, but I would like to get a colgan bra for trips. Someone said go to autoanything.com -- I plan to do this.

ryoken

Personally, I thought the sport suspension of the 330i did an excellent job of absorbing bumps, better than some other non-sport suspensions. However, if ride comfort is important to you, you probably will prefer the 325. Also, I think you owe it to yourself to try out a few of the competing models (Volvo S60, Audi A4, Cadillac CTS, etc.) Whatever car you pick, you'll definately have a smoother ride if you get 16" wheels and touring tires as opposed to 17" wheels and performance tires.

I'm curious why you'd move down from a 5 to a 3. I'm not getting a BMW because the 3 is too small, and the 5 is too expensive.

erickpl

Take a look at this article...

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/347/nation/

NASA_develops_more_efficient_catalytic_converter_for_cars+.shtml

This may help ALL cars around here in the US.

-Paul

brave1heart

erickpl

yeah, I work with NASA (they are a customer of my company) and it is nice to see the government putting science (whether it is aviation, space, etc) and making the technology transfer to the commercial market.

-Paul.

fl330i

While driving my 2001 330i on two different long hwy trips I experienced an odd jerking from the transmission. The car was in cruise at 75 mph for about 2 hours when I could hear a pounding noise; felt the car lurching at two-to-three cycles per second and lost power to the wheels (engine would rev, but no increase in speed). The pounding and lurching ceased after I turned the cruise control off. It resumed when I pressed on the accelerator. After coasting for a few seconds I was able to press on the accelerator and send power to the wheels (as if nothing had happened).

The second instance was the same, except that I had to pull off the road, stop and place the vehicle in park, before it would send power to the wheels again.

The on-board computer did not register the event, according to the dealer -- now what?

joes230

I think your question was 325i non-sport vs 330i non-sport (which nonetheless has the sport suspension, just not the tires and seats).

I think you'll do OK as long as you don't get the 330i sport package. I have a 330i SP and I like it. But I've driven a 325i non-sport, and it's a very big difference.

The 330i SP has more responsive handling, and less body roll than the 325i non-sport. But it rides quite firmly and tramlining (steering kickback due to road imperfections) is very noticeable. A lot of this is due to the low profile, wide performance tires.

Personally the 325i non-sport was too soft for me, and my 330i SP is very slightly too firm (although I've gotten used to it and now like it). From a pure ride/handling standpoint, I'd probably have preferred the non-sport 330i, but I just love the sport seats and overall look of the sport package.

The 330i has significantly more power, especially noticeable if you have an automatic transmission.

If you can afford it, I'd highly recommend the 330i over the 325i. With the non-sport tires, I don't think the suspension will cause you any problems. However -- try before you buy.

Also as ryoken said, try out the competition. I'd especially suggest the Infiniti G35, and Audi A4.

-- Joe

killer3

I have tried almost all the competition to the 3 and 5 series. I have a problem in that I am 6'6" tall, with a 37" inseam, so most cars do not offer enough legroon, especially any vehicle made by nissan. (Which is too bad, the M45 and G35 look really cool). I am moving down from the 5 series to the 3 series simply because of costs. I have a temporary reduction in income and the $150 a month I expect to save will make my budget more comfortable this time. Also, Massachusetts has relatively high excise taxes, so taxes are also reduced with the 3 compared to the five. I kinda liked a few cars that I test drove, the Audi A6 was nice, but the BMW has a better suspension, and better proportioned torque band (I grew up driving GM cars with lots of low-end torque, the exact opposite of the VW high revving engines.) I also liked the Saturn LS300 (but it was a little unrefined, the engine is not quite right yet, interior has evolved very nicely.) and the IS 300, which I liked better than the A4 mainly because the interior is nicer and it is RWD. I decided I really prefer RWD,and that has led me to the 3 series. By the way the A6 interior is really great, now if we could only get a few of their engineers (and maybe the guy from Dodge who is in charge of cup holders) to defect from Ingolstadt to Munich.....

aldubya

I have a 2001 325xi auto transmission with approx 19+K miles on it. Noticed a left front wheel tire "hum" when decelerating from 40 to 25 MPH or at very low speeds. Returned to my dealer who said that the tires have some uneven wear, perhaps related to the 4 wheel drive. They moved the rear tires to the front. Less noisy in front but more noisy in back. The tires are
all-season "ContiTouring Contact" Continentals. I do not have a sport suspension. Any thoughts or comments?

killer3

I have the same style Continental tire on my 528i, andnoticed a similar effect, after about 20k miles the tire degrades and creates lots of NVH. This has probably less to do with AWD versus RWD, but instead with the way we push these BMW's through the turns, scalloping the edges and doing other damage. I understand that these H+ rated tires do tend to degrade faster than the lower rated tires we tend to have on lesser cars, and 20K is typical of most different tire brands. Rotating your tires frequently should get slightly longer life out of your tires. The Continental is a great tire, and is economical in that you should be able to get new ones for around $100, which is way less than most other brands (especially Michelins). Consumer Reports even said in its latest comparison of all-season tires that if you want good handling this Continental is the way to go. (of course they did not survey a whole lot of tires). There are plenty of other great tires to consider.. I found the BF Goodrich KDWS to be a similar good deal. If the noise bothers you replace the tires now, it is a small investment for peace of mind.

aldubya

Thank you killer3. Appreciate your comments. I may go ahead and put new tires on. Will check out some pricing. Spoke to my salesperson at Erhard BMW who said that he experienced similar problems with Pirellis, and Michelins and found Continentals to be the least noisy. He drives a 5 series BMW.

thel

Its got an automatic (yuk) and about 110,000 miles. How reliable are older BMW's? If it was an Accord with this many miles I wouldn't worry, but I don't know much about BMW.

kdshapiro

Heck I would worry about any car. I'm continually amazed at the people who run their car into the ground without taking car of it. I had two high mileage, high age cars, one American, one Japanese and both nickeled and dimed and dollared me to tears. I would expect the BMW not to be so fussy.

Although I have to say it both were reliable, I was tired of replacing all the parts that started to fail from age.

jb_shin

For an H-rated tires, I would expect them to last much more before becoming noisy or having to replace them. Granted they were not on BMW, but I got 60,000 miles out of V-rated tires on my Integra and H-rated on Accord. Michelins I had on both were quiet and performed until I replaced them. For a RWD with negative camber and softer compound w/y/z tires, perhaps 20,000 is about what you can get.

BTW, H-rated tires are used on most cars these days, V and above are on so called "performace oriented" cars. I believe BMW with SPP have w-rated tires, which is even softer than the V-rated ones.

mseals

Wow, sounds like there is another Michiganer in the house. Aldubya, could you tell me if you get all your maintenance done at the dealership? I have a 1998 BMW 528i and it is up for its inspection 2. I called Erhard BMW in Farmington Hills, since they are 3 miles from my job. They told me that an inspection 2 would cost me $1200. That is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. I called around and found out that the Auto Doctor, a repair shop that works on European Autos exclusively, will do it for $500. That is much more reasonable if you ask me.

erickpl

Slightly OT, but I lived in Farmington Hills and was born in Livonia...

Been a while tho.

-Paul

mseals

Where do you live now, somewhere warm I hope. I keep telling myself I will move to a state where there is no snow, but in a sick sort of way, I love seeing all 4 seasons. I hate winter the most, but I do like to ski if I get a chance. I would love to move to a warmer climate, i.e. California like my best friend, but I am too cheap. Even though I know I would make more money, I couldn't justify spending so much for a house, and gas, and clothes and other things. Call me a cheap skate, but hey, I like the thrifty midwest.

erickpl

I live in SoCal now, but in the mountains where I get snow. I want to take the 3er skiing (I have an xi), but I suspect we will end up taking our Jeep - more space and a higher clearance.

-Paul

fjm1

Copy of letter sent to BMW NA

To: BMWNA

From: Frank Miller

Dear BMW Representative,

I respectfully request that you buy my 2000 BMW 323i VIN# back from me. It has been very problematic.

February 2000: Rear differential replaced twice for a whining noise.

May 2000: Right Front window rattle, seals replaced.

June 2000: Left Front window rattle, seals replaced.

July 2000: Airbag light went off three times, dealership must have replaced about 10 miles of wires.

September 2000: Left Front door seal leaked soaking rear carpet, seals replaced.

November 2000: Right Front door seal leaked soaking rear carpet, seals replaced.

February 2001: Front windows rattle and the airbag light is on again, both fixed.

April 2001: Same Right Front door seals leak for a third time, seals replaced.

March 2001: Airbag light on again, dealer fixed.

At this point in time I moved from the Army base in Heidelberg, Germany to Oxford N.J. In Germany, the dealership that serviced my car was called Auto-Kocher, Am Taubenfeld 39, Heidelberg Germany 69123. I have some of the service records for after the one year Euro warranty ran out. The first year they kept all the records of the failures.

When I get back to the U.S. with my wonderful souvenir from Germany it continues to fail regularly. Now the servicing dealer is either Hunterdon BMW of New Jersey or Allentown BMW of Pensylvania. Here is the list:

October 2001: Front windows rattle, seals replaced

November 2001: Engine will not accelerate properly, VANOS sensor replaced

November 2001: Windows still rattle; dealership says they can’t fix it.

December 2001: Right rear window goes down and refuses to go back up, more wires replaced.

December 2001: Engine stalls repeatedly, VANOS controller replaced again

February 2002: VANOS failed again, replaced

April 2002: VANOS failed again, replaced

August 2002: VANOS failed again, replaced

December 2002: VANOS failed again, major engine repair work done, entire top end rebuilt.

Please feel free to contact either or both of the dealerships to corroborate these fixes. The car has been fixed so many times I probably lost track of a few.

As you can plainly see, this car is a lemon. I cannot, in good conscience, sell this car to some unsuspecting individual. Therefore, I feel it is your duty to give me fair market value. I have spoken with an attorney who specializes in automotive lawsuits and he assures me this is a fair request.

Regretfully disappointed,

BMW NA called and after swearing they would look into it stopped returning my calls.

Beware new buyer, check epinions.com and read some of the poor reviews.

riez

mseals... You should ask that dealer exactly what all he is doing. My local BMW dealer, Markel BMW, also quotes a high price. But when you look at what they are doing, they are doing way MORE than either Schedule 1 or 2 service as recommended by BMW. You see a lot of BMW dealers doing this, or at least I see the complaints about such behavior in letters to publications like Roundel, Bimmer, etc. And not just BMW dealers. Lots try to do this. Even for simple LOF.

Think the key is to get the price quote after telling the dealer you only want exactly what BMW specifies for Schedule 1 or 2. No additional services. For example, if it says "Inspect" something, just inspect and not automatically replace.

riez

fjm1... Why not include your comments from the Edmunds forum here, the one titled BMW 325 vs the World? BMW might want to know about all the flogging of that sucker. Maybe the flogging contributed to the problems? Is one reason I don't flog automobiles. (Isn't it Paul Harvey who talks about setting forth "the rest of the story"?)

aldubya

mseals...mine is a leased BMW. So far, maintenance has been covered by BMW. Have had the car serviced at Erhard BMW at their dealership at Telegraph Rd and Maple in Bloomfield Township. Actually, I've only had the 15K oil chg & maintenance done to date. They're expensive though. They quoted me a fee of $110 to rotate and balance the tires. Belle Tire wanted $10 per wheel. Good luck.

aldubya

fjm1...what a horrible story. Surprised you've lasted as long with this "lemon". Will be interesting to see what or if BMW NA says or does anything.

getz2

Yeah, because flogging your 323i would surely be responsible for the umpteen airbag lights, and of course the leaky door seals. Good lord, give the guy a break, he shelled out decent cash for a lemon. Every company makes one, just some more than others.

-getz

fomentar

Has anyone opted for the BMW alarm system? If so, did you include it in your negotiations or buy it afterwards? Thanks.

killer3

I did not even know that BMW made a dealer installed alarm, my BMWs have come with a factory installed alarm that is more than good enough for my purposes; but if I wanted more security, I would get a vehicle tracking alarm, the most popular in the Northeast is Lojack, but I think others also make one that uses a GPS & cell-phone to track a stolen car. I think Code*Alarm may make one of these, but it was more costly than Lojack. Unless you are in a high crime area, I am not sure I would bother with extra alarm... all you end up doing is bothering the neighbors.

div2

Sadly, lots of BMW dealers will try to hose you on service costs. My local Indie BMW shop performed the Insp. II on my 528iA using Mobil 1 and in addition replaced the front pads, a tie rod, and did an alignment for about $450. Insp 1 on my ti was $155(including front pads). More than a few wanna-BMW owners like to trash our cars with unfounded sour grapes comments about BMW reliability and repair costs. That's THEIR problem. I just returned from a 210 mile interstate trip in the ti-a 1995 with 74000 miles on the clock. The weather was miserable-a flood warning was in effect- but the ti never gave any cause for concern. It simply drilled through the rain at speeds of 75-85 mph. No rattles, no squeaks, just the pleasant sound of the 1.8 revving along at 4000+ rpm. In seven years of ownership I've shelled out less than $120 dollars for unscheduled maintenance- a set of front pads, wiper blades, and drive belts(which I replaced as a precautionary measure). Unlike a lot of the wanna-BMW owners, I don't lie awake at night wishing I'd bought something else...

fjm1

Riez, as I've clearly stated on that other message thread I do not treat the 323 any worse or better than my '92 Acura Integra. One breaks the other doesn't.

aldubya and getz: thanks for a little sympathy. It's been very upsetting to make the financial stretch to obtain a dream car only to have it fail miserably. My wife an I love our Bimmer when it's working well, that's why it's so hard to part with.

Div2: I own a BMW and lie awake at nite wishing I bought something else.

riez

fjm1... Guess I don't mind too much your constant complaints about your own car and your experiences. It is unfortunate. But believe you go over the top when you criticize BMW in total. And I think it is only fair that you should explain to people that you self admit to "flogging your sucker". BMW builds hundreds of thousands of 3 Series annually. A few bad apples are bound to be in any such huge bunch. But I suspect that owners that flog their suckers are bound to experience more problems than those who don't. I haven't flogged either of my BMWs. Both have been pretty enjoyable experiences to own and drive. (Not sure one can compare the driving experience of an early 1990s FWD 4 cyl Acura Integra to the 3 Series. Was that Acura based on the Honda Civic or Accord platform? Can't hardly imagine there was any fun in flogging the Acura. Might be scary to get it near its limits. But I can imagine how much more fun it is to push the 3 Series. They can bring out the beast in drivers.)

Do you have an active BMW CCA chapter near you? Are you a BMW CCA member? They might have been able to assist you in dealing with your dealer or BMW NA.

Where was your 3 Series made? Mine is South African. Just curious.

div2

You wrote:
>I own a BMW and lie awake at nite wishing I bought something else.<

Well, just sell the bloody thing and find another topic to post in; your constant whining is becoming tiresome to the large majority of participants who DON'T have problems.

mseals

Erhard is high, there is no doubt about that. I knew they were high when it came to buying cars, but I figured with they might not be so bad for maintenance. My mistake, their $1200 quote for an inspection 2 is evidence of that. I don't think I will be taking it there for anythign other than warranty work from now on. That is almost insulting if they tried to add on a bunch of stuff without even looking at the car. If a customer asks for the cost of an inspection 2, should the price vary or should it be static. I could see if they found something wrong, like brakes for instance. But that is after the fact. Could they be quoting me high incase something like that occurs. Isn't there some law that the price for repairs can't be higher than the estimate or can only be so much over the estimate.

div2

Well, I DO flog the ti; drivers schools, autocross, and "spirited" street driving. The only thing I've noticed is that the M42 four banger consumes a bit more oil under track conditions. And I did manage to hot spot a rotor once because I didn't get to do a cool down lap after an instructor session.

kdshapiro

"Flogging" is different from abusing. Some people abuse their autos by:

1. not following recommended maintenace especially when flogging
2. driving with low fluid levels and parts in need of repair
3. not following manufacturers break-in recommendations
4. driving the car hard while the engine and drivetrain is warming up, especially in freezing weather
5. overreving the engine in neutral
6. driving with your foot on the brake and accelerator at the same time
7. using the clutch to hold the car on a hill
8. doing a lot of high rev torque starts with an auto tranny.

Have fun flogging, even with hard driving and track racing you should get many years of ownership from a car provided it's taken care of.

jb_shin

I realize you are passionate about your BMWs, but as a 95 Integra owner (for the record, I own 2002 530 as well), I must point out a couple of things.

1. fjm1 did not compare the driving dynamic between the 2, but reliability based on his experience.

2. Have you driven an Integra? I brought mine to Germany after putting about 127,000 miles in DC metro trafic and the powertrain still pulls hard, cruises at 100+ mph for hours on autobahn. Sure it is not as quiet nor stable above 120 as my 530, but handles well, and is fun to drive. It is built on Civic chassis, and there are a few squeaks, but no rattle. In fact, it is holding up so well that I may take it back to the states and keep it as my commuter.

Please do not generalize and make comments like "Can't hardly imagine there was any fun in flogging the Acura. Might be scary to get it near its limits". There are other cars that can be quite fun, even if they do not have the roundel on it.

riez

jb_shin... I readily admit my bias against FWD vehicles. I've owned FWD and RWD. I much prefer RWD for performance applications. And I know there are a ton of great cars from a lot of marques. I love great cars. Not just BMWs. (I had fun driving my old '96 Infiniti G20t but from a driver's perspective it doesn't compare to my wife's 323iA.)

Was the Integra based on the Accord platform? Civic? Some other platform? Decent car.

riez

div2, kdshapiro, & jb_shin... I would refer you to read fjm1's comments posted at the Edmunds BMW 325i vs the World board. I did try to get fjm1 to define his terms.

fjm1 wrote his car was a "spirited vixen that begs for trouble" and "so heck yeah I flog that sucker". He also wrote "flogging = opposite of 'driving as intended'".

Believe his original main beef related to VANOS units on 2.5L.

I concur that BMWs can be driven appropriately hard as long as the driver maintains the car and knows how to drive well on the right road surfaces & settings (e.g. race track vs 25 mph residential area). But that to me seems like it could be different than "flogging" or getting into "trouble".

The MidAmerica Motor Sports track isn't too far from me. My local BMW CCA chapter has come out twice for weekend driving school and spirited track time. I went out once to watch and spoke with participants. (Is a bit pricey to participate.) They had a blast. That is the right place and under the right conditions.

jb_shin

I agree that RWD cars are generally more fun to drive and easier to control once it gets out of hand. I had a heck of a time when I started sliding on a slippery surface in our Accord. I just could not get it to straighten out.

Once I started to really enjoy driving the car, I told myself that it would have to be RWD for me. However, Integra Type-R (one of very, very few FWD that can be steered with throttle) or the new Mini handle so well, that I may have to give them another chance.

jb_shin

For those looking to buy:

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000116215.cfm

John

kdshapiro

Excuse me while I wipe away the drool. Tnanks for the link. This should put to rest any more comments the vehicles are underpowered. With the EVO pulling 5.3 to 60 with a turbo, BMW has done a great job with this engine. Can't wait to see MSRP.

locke2c

div2 posted that last week! maybe a different news site, but same car.

he was talking about not trading his '95 318ti Club Sport for it...

-Colin

mg330ci

Anything outside kdshapiro's list should be considered normal driving conditions for a BMW. If not, I want my money back :-D

fjm1 Sorry to hear about your experience. Let us know about the outcome.

Performance package: Nice. I feel better about leasing now.

BMW dealers: They want your money, of course, one way or the other. Some might deserve at least a fraction of what they charge, some don't deserve a nickel. As with everything else, shop smartly.

riez

They say "cars arrive in showrooms in April". No pricing data.

bmw323is

I don't want to start rumors, but I read (from what I think is a reliable source) that Auto Week reported the 330 will get 10 additional HP and a six speed with a new short throw shifter, along with a couple of other goodies. I don't get Auto Week - can somebody confrim or deny this?

mg330ci

-6-speeds: I can care less

-Short throw shifter: Definitively a plus. The current one has a lot of room for improvement!

-10HP: As long as fuel economy and engine reliability don't suffer, then its an engineering victory and welcomed (although weight reduction would be more appreciated).

-18 inch wheels: What! are they serious! This is certainly a liability in the package. Although I agree they look cool and improve handling on a race track, the low profile tires will definitively increase the harshness of the ride to M3 levels, which is not for everyone but the more hardcore drivers. Being one myself, the line most be drawn somewhere, and real life drivability in our less than perfect roads has to be weighed. I like to have the 18inch option, and they look gorgeous, but not as a package with the rest of the improvements. Also consider the increase chance of punctures that the lower profile tires has!

markjenn

The PP sounds like a great deal for people who have been wanting something like the old four-door E36 M3. It's got about the same power as the old car, I love the cloth interior, and the six-speed should keep highway revs reasonable, yet allow great gear spacing. The 18-inch, I could take or leave, but the wheels set the car apart.

To me, this is a four-door, cheaper M3 without the problematic 333-hp engine which offers way more performance and juvenile bragging rights than I need.

I'm hoping they leave the sunroof off, keep the option list reasonable and make sure it is under $40K base MSRP. If they do, sign me up for ED in the late spring!

- Mark

brave1heart

The High Performance package stirred a lot of excitement on all BMW boards when it was announced a couple of weeks ago. The 330i HP is as close to an E36 M3 as the E46 will ever get and most likely the most factory power that will be offered in an E46 sedan. Frankly, the only two things that I care about from the HP package are the 10 extra ponies and esp. the shorter gear ratio. Oh, and the more aggressive exhaust sound. I don't care about the 6-spd or the 18" wheels or the aerodynamics and I have not seen the alcantara cloth interior, although I suspect it will look nice. The package will cost ~4-5 grand and although it's nice to have the factory warranty, you can achieve the same performance gains for a lot less money - a CAI & a good performance exhaust should be ~$1,000 and a differential should be another grand or so.

fjm1

FEEDBACK.

Div2: Your opinion is precisely why I have chosen to post. These boards are loaded with enthusiast, as I once was. The opinions are not representative of the entire BMW owning population/experience. A newbie comes in and thinks "Wow BMW's are perfect!" As BMW NA has treated us poorly it is now my MISSION to dissuade potential buyers from making the same mistake I did.

I love my freedom of speech!

seivwrig

I kind of feel the same as mg330ci. i don't want to come across as a whinner but I really think that BMWNA might want to reconsider who they sell cars in this country. I really would like to pick my options a la carte like the rest of the world. Package this and package that. I don't need the additional stuff. I would like to get the sport suspension and sport steering wheel without sport seats. i would like a short throw shifter without 18" wheels. I would like the different camshaft. I guess if all BMWCCA members started a letter writing campaign to BMW AG and BMWNA about having the Individual program and options a la carte, maybe this too could change. What is interesting is the following: This performance package is for the 330i sedan and North America only. Also, this car in going to look (physical) the same as a 330i sport (UK) or 330i with M sport package II (Germany)(no chrome)