BMW 3-Series 2005 and earlier

leenelsonmd

BMW just extended my warranty on the 2003 M3 for the engine to 6years/100k. This is a standard policy now because of the unexpectedly higher failure rate in the 3.246 liter engine.

I applaude the performance package on the new 330, but $9k seems very little to pay for the thrill of getting the 333 horses. There are few cars that can generate the kinds of smiles you get when you are really laying on it in second and third gears in the M3. You only live once. If you live a disciplined life and money is not too important to you then just pull the trigger and get the M3.

I will again say that there was something beautiful and unique about the 5 speed in the 330 that I loved. I wish the performance package didn't take that 5 speed away. (I liked it more than the 6sp in the M3)

BTW: you must all go and drive the Z4. Unbelievable. It generated the same feeling for me as my M3 for a lot less. I loved it, but I need a more practical car (We take family trips in the M3--put the kid seat in the back and pack the trunk full--it is great).

bmw323is

Didn't I read the the Perf. Package on the 330i only added 10 HP? If correct, how does that get you closer to an M3? IMO, nearly crossing the $40,000 mark for a base (performance) 330i is pushing the limit.

markjenn

Well, if hp is the only measure of a car's goodness, a 310-hp Z28 is a lot closer to a M3 than a 330i PP.

The PP brings the 330i to about the same power as an E36 M3. That was sufficient level of power three years ago to have a lot of fun and still is. And the price of an E46 330i PP is about the same as an E36 M3 sedan.

Sorry, I don't understand why folks these days are so obsessed with more power. $9K for 100 extra hp? Why not? We're headed for the next generation M3 making 400-hp and weighing 3800 lbs.

- Mark

mseals

The $500 goes straight to the person who has no fault insurance by their insurance company. If they are not insured, then they get nothing. But, like I said before, the insurance you buy pays only for you car, not the other guys car. It is against the law for an insurance company to raise you rates for a non at fault accident, even though they are the ones who have to pay to fix your car. But hey, that is the gamble they take by taking your insurance premiums. They do however get around that sometimes by saying that they raise your rates for other reasons. Or, better yet, they will raise rates all around because of losses (i.e. claims they have to pay) and if you don't have any accidents then they might give you a discount. I got a $100 discount on my 528i because they said I haven't had any claims in the 3 years I have had them. I pay $760 every 6 months for full coverage, that includes: personal liability up to $100k, property damage up to $300k, collision w/ a $500 deductible, glass, theft, natural occurences and fire w/ a $500 deductible. I didn't opt for what is called broadform collision, which is more expensive, but with that, my car gets damaged in any way and I am not at fault, they will pay for the repair of the car with no deductible.

soverypoornow

FWIW, soverypoorwife loves her '99 318ti and is anxiously awaiting the 1-series to replace it.

bing330i

thanks for the info.

i ended up going to new century where i bought my car from, though a bit far. first, they had earliest opening and gave me a loaner. second, they all speak my native language chinese. anyhow, i may try crevier next time - oil services is just 1200 mi away...

aldubya

markjenn: PP on 330i bumps HP by only 10 to 235hp. From the flyer: "This thrilling 3 Series combines an aggressive new camshaft, specially tuned exhaust, and more aggressive engine programming. As a result, output is boosted to 235hp..." I'm not sure worth extra $9K

markjenn

The $9K bump we have been discussion is about the cost delta between a 330i PP (235-hp) and a M3 (333-hp). The PP is about $3900, but because it negates the need to get the sports package and 18-inch wheel options, it's actual cost delta between a 330i with SP/18's is about $2K. I think the small hp bump and the other stuff in the PP is reasonably priced at about $2K.

- Mark

riez

markjenn... Concur. Will be interesting to see exactly how many are made. And who buys it. Will groups like BMW CCA consider it "special" or unique? Will this car be of any special interest in the future due to limited production? Not sure it will, but it will be more than a "run of the mill" 330i Sport. But think things will really depend upon whether there will be any further engine enhancements during remaining life of E46 platform, when its replacement comes out, and the engine & transmission combinations of the next generation 3 Series.

topspin627

My bet is it's to put some "juice" into sales of the sedan. It seems that the coupe is hotter in sales these days and when I was shopping approx. 15 months ago, they wouldn't deal on the coupes but would on the sedans. If it's somewhat limited in production, then they should be able to get full sticker. Earlier it was posted by leenelsonmd that the 5 speed manual was preferred to the 6 speed. I was curious as to why you feel this way?

brave1heart

I think a more likely reason is that they don't want to cannibalize M3 sales. 10 HP doesn't sound like much but combined with the more aggressive gearing, it will make the car noticeably faster and it might lure some coupe buyers away from the M3. It's all about marketing - they don't offer a sedan on the M3 so they won't cannibalize M5 sales.

paul325xi

My 2002 325xi which was less than 1 yr old got rearended by a tractor trailer in upstate NY last weekend!!! We're in North Carolina and were up visiting family. Fortunately my wife and I are relatively ok. The same can't be said for the car but it is repairable. I'm having it fixed at Gault Autosports in Endicott, NY.

If anyone has any comments about Gault I would appreciate hearing that. Also if there are any watch fors or questions I could put to the body shop personnel to make sure everthing is checked out properly, that would be appreciated as well.

Finally, I had the misfortune of having a Canadien truck driver responsible for the collision (he was cited with a ticket). If anyone has any pointers on dealing with the Canadien/NY liability insurance laws, I would want to hear that. I think this is going to end up costing me money (deductible, rental cars, etc) even though we were entirely not to blame (We were at a standstill due to an accident ahead of us)

Any comments you have would be helpful. Thanks.

redfive2112

with Edmunds long term 3er? They've had it 6 months and have only logged 4500 miles. In comparison, the Mini they've had just as long has almost 14,000 miles. Their A4 has 17,000 miles in 8 months. Even the Ferrari has 2300 miles on it, and that thing is always in the shop.

Also, every other car reports on drivers' personal experiences in the car. The 3er's is always very vague and generic - "This month we'll talk about the beautiful lines of our long term 330...". Thanks, but I'd like to know what your 45,000 dollar ride is like to drive on a daily basis. Isn't that the point of the long term test cars?

I wrote the editors asking to explain the difference in reporting style and they ignored me. Am I the only person who's noticed this?

Thanks,

Scott

rwong1998

I noticed the same thing about the mileage and lack of details on the long term test of the 2002 330i. If you want a lot more information on a very similar vehicle, check out the long term test on Edmunds on the 1999 328i.

leenelsonmd

The 5 speed throws easier and is more definitive in its feel. I have almost 6000 miles on my 2.5 month old M3 so I have been out there driving it alot, but I still had a slight pref for the feel of the 5sp. The gates on the 6sp are small and it sometimes feels a little sticky. You have to drive it precisely and with determination. You can't just take it easy and throw it through the gears. I still love the M3 and would purchase it again and again, but I loved the 330 5sp as well.

In some ways the 330 was easier and possibly even more fun to drive. I found it very responsive and it communicates with the driver very well. Having less horsepower it was easier for me to take it through the tight turns and it would always give good feedback and warning as the rear tires would let go. In the M3 it has so much power that with DSC on you frequently feel the computer kicking in and saving you, and with it off you have to be easy with the throttle in the turns. As Brian Herta said "The M3 is a car that wants to be driven sideways." I have found that to be true. I love it but sometimes it is a beast to control.

topspin627

Thanks for the data. It's interesting the differences you perceive. I have a 330I auto and drove my friends M3 convertible with stick and found it to be not as "relaxing" to drive as other sticks. It might be too much car for me.
As for the Edmunds long term test on 330, I too noticed the lack of substance in their reports. Maybe they lost the keys for a few months and were too embarrassed to mention that! I hear that this month's report will focus on they way the sun gleams off of the paint when the car is positioned at a 45 degree slant in the driveway!
Get with it guys!
Has anyone out there tried to come off lease early recently. I'm halfway through a 36 month lease and I suspect that the rates have dropped substantially since I made my deal. I was wondering if it would be close to a wash to roll into a new model.

seivwrig

riez, I think Brave has a point, but BMW is walking a tight line. The new package is probably limited. But considering when the next 3er is coming out, BMW probably are just creating some excitement. WIth everyone and their grandmother trying to increase HP, BMW has to make their cars look exciting. At the same time, the 330i cannot come too close in the numbers. In real world driving, the 330i is a fine and powerful car. I have never drove or ridden in a M3, but it seems like power on tap, if you can handle it.
I think that with the new 5er been here at the end of 2003, start of 2004. BMW might inject some more excitement at the end of the E46 run (maybe one of the new inline-6 engines from the 5er). I just wish that BMW would give us the Individual program, even our neighbors in the North have it.

riez

seivwrig... I concur. [Me, I just want LSD as standard, and failing that, as an option. For all BMWs! If LSD is good enough for the M5, then it is good enough for rest of line.]

bgt1

I just bought a 330i and find it very fun to drive. has quite a bit of power and love the way it handles.

I have never driven a M3 but would almost be scared too. The 330i suspension already feels very tight for a daily commuter.

I would think the M3 is a blast to drive but not make as good as a daily commuter with its tighter suspension and tons more hp.

mbarto

Hopefully someone here on the forum can answer or possibly direct me to answers to my questions.

I'm currently a contractor working in Qatar (Middle East). Since a 330ci was one of the vehicles I may be interested in buying, I recently stopped by a BMW dealer here in the city of Doha and looked at some 2003 models. What I noticed was a different set of exterior paint colors, upholstery colors and trim colors. I was really impressed with a paint color of light yellow metallic, with light yellow nappa leather and birch wood trim. So rich looking. Obviously the color options are different for "European" spec models, the kind they import here. I verified the colors by surfing the BMW Germany web site.

Here are my questions:

1) If I decided on either ordering a 2003 U.S. model back in the states directly from the dealer or via European delivery, am I able to request/order these special "European only" colors?

2) If I went the other route of purchasing the vehicle here in Qatar or flying directly to Germany and doing the same thing, can a European model vehicle be optioned with U.S. emission so it will pass inspection? If so does anyone have experience or knowledge of the cost of this option or the costs of doing that once it is back in the states?

I welcome any input, especially from dealers. I won't be buying a vehicle till late summer, but any help I can get now can possibly lead to a 100% cash sale for any of you sales representatives out there. ;-)

Thanks!
Mark

leenelsonmd

I second that. An LSD should be standard on every BMW.

BTW: M3 makes a great daily driver. Its suspension is great. You can hit speed bumps at 45mph that would rip the bottom out of most cars. (I do not routinely do this). (I am talking about speed bumps in the middle of the road, not in a parking lot--I do not drive 45mph through a parking lot). My wife loves it. We drove up to Austin twice this past week with the kid (200miles from Houston) and had a great time. It is virtually silent at 85-95mph in 6th gear and the distance melts away. The V1 comes in handy too at those speeds which are not unreasonable on the empty stretches of road down here in Texas.

brave1heart

I would LOVE to have an LSD in my 325i but it won't happen. Let's face it: for 98% of BMW owners, DSC is safer than LSD. Those that really demand performance (of which LSD is an integral part) will opt for the M models. It's way too expensive to have both DSC and LSD on the non-M 3-series and why force 98% of the buyers to pay for something they don't need?

riez

brave1heart... Lexus IS300 can have it as an option (which it does), so should 3 Series. If Nissan Maxima SE can have it as an option (which it does), then it is a must BMW option! If it comes with M5 (which it does), then it should at least be an option for 540i. My old G20t had it as part of that package. Back then you could get it with a 318i. Traction and stability controls are NOT acceleration enhancers. LSD is!

brave1heart

<<< Traction and stability controls are NOT acceleration enhancers>>> But 98% of the drivers out there don't need acceleration enhancers, do they? It would be great if they made it an option on all 3-series - I think we are all in agreement on this!! BTW, do the IS300 and the Maxima have anything like the DSC?!?

On the other hand, 98% of drivers don't need RWD and 50/50 weight distribution. Now I'm arguing with myself )

div2

98% of drivers are brain-dead morons who have no business behind the wheel of ANY motor vehicle. I've seen some posts on Edmunds where idiots tell how they bought an AWD or 4X4 because they have to drive in the rain a lot. Candidates for mandatory public transit, if you ask me...

denk

I think you're being a little harsh on us brain dead morons who believed the BMW 3-Series brochure which states in its description of the AWD system that "it also helps tame hydroplaning-the very dangerous situation when the tires ride on water instead of the road surface. The instant that wheelspin is detected, engine power is immediately and automatically diverted to the wheels with traction". And on the next page the brochure talks about the usefullness of AWD in different road conditions and even includes a picture of a wet road. So I guess you are saying that BMW's statements are a bunch of bs or marketing hype. Perhaps so, but those of us who opted for the AWD option did so in the belief that it provided an extra margin of safety in all weather conditions.

bmw323is

I've been following the release of the new RX-8 from Mazda. With the six speed manual, you get sport tuned suspension, 50/50 weight distribution, 3,000 pounds even, RWD, LSD, 250HP (at 8,200 rpm on the way to 9,000) and 18" rolling stock. And for an extra $1,100, you get xenon's, DSC, traction control, fog lamps and a couple other goodies. Total MSRP for all of this is $28,800.

Hmmm...the competiton continues to come.

kdshapiro

Drive it and come back and say it has the total package. BMW could produce a $25,000 killer, but then it wouldn't be a BMW, it would be a Mazda6.

Car companies don't give anything away, it you want a scrappy little car get an EVO, but don't expect the "total BMW package", that is not their market. The same for the RX-8. Xenons/DSC/LSD are becoming standard on a lot of cars, and I'm sure it'll have a dynamite drive, but it will fall short where BMW excels, if not it wouldn't be $28,000 loaded, less than the G35.

dave330i

That reminded me of something I saw last week while visiting my folks back East. It had been lightly snowing for an hour or so, and as I was turning onto a major local road guess what I saw? An SUV stuck in the center divide curb. I usually don't laugh at other people's misfortune, but made an exception in this case.

riez

kdshapiro... So I guess you have serious reservations about the 1 Series? Forget if it is in latest issue of Roundel or one of the big auto magazines, but saw an estimate of 1 Series price as being less than or around the Golf. BMW has also had some less than successes: 318ia, 318ti, 8 Series, Z1, etc.

div2

I sure am- and I stand by my comments. And I'm certainly not saying AWD doesn't have some real advantages over RWD. For example, if your goal is to maintain high average speeds in inclement weather then AWD IS the hot ticket-though I'd prefer a C4S or a 4.6is over an E46. My point is simply this: If your driving skills are so weak that you need AWD to feel "confident" driving in the rain you really should just take the bus.

div2

LOL! A couple of years ago I was driving my wife's 318ti in the middle of a pretty good ice storm. The 3er was fitted with Artic Alpins so I switched off the ASC to see how it would cope without the Bavarian elves modulating the throttle and brakes. It turned out that the ti got around quite well, though you did have to pay attention. I grew up driving two ton American RWD sleds year round, so you either learned how to drive or stayed home.

bluebeast

leenelsonmd, Don't you just love the open roads in Texas?

brave1heart, your statement "98% of drivers are brain-dead morons who have no business behind the wheel of ANY motor vehicle"......AMEN

dave330i

It's amazing how many people think they are invincible because they drive a SUV, AWD, or FWD. Try to convince them that tire choice, driving technique, and sound judgment are more important than which wheels get the power, and you might as well be talking to a rock.

brave1heart

I'd love to take credit for that statement but I have to give it to div2 ;o)

denk

Just as dangerous imho are those drivers who think they are invincible because they think they have superior driving skills and therefore do some really stupid things on the road.

locke2c

bailey doesn't think he's invincible, he just knows his limits. I'm sure he can drive well within those abilities and easily exceed any posted speed limit.

I know the dangerous sort who thinks they're the next coming of Senna. trust me, THEY fit into that 98% too.

-Colin

mschukar

those of us who opted for the AWD option did so in the belief that it provided an extra margin of safety in all weather conditions

Every accident I've been in, my foot was firmly on the brake, not the gas. How would AWD have helped me avoid those accidents?

-murray

dave330i

And what do you think are superior driving skills for us mere mortals? It's the stuff between our ears. It's knowing how to stay out of trouble, and knowing what to do if you get into trouble.

nerd

I would appreciate comments on leatherette vs. leather seats in a 2003 3-series. I am trying to keep the cost down so I can afford one. The dealer in Shreveport, LA told me that the leatherette does not get any hotter than leather and that it is more durable than leather. I would be particularly interested in hearing from you folks who live in hot climates.

denk

I couldn't agree more. What I had in mind was the people who follow too closely at high speeds, change lanes with insufficient space causing one to have to brake, passing on highway shoulders, driving the speed limit regardless of weather conditions,etc.etc. I think we would all agree that a bad driver is a bad driver regardless of what kind of car or how it's equipped.

sddennehy

Pardon for sounding dumb, but what are the advantages/disadvantages of a 5 vs 6 speed transmission.

mseals

sddennehy: The one advantage that I can think of it that with a 6 sp, you can split up the gear ratios closer so that acceleration can be increased a little bit but still allowing the final drive good fuel economy. It is almost like the best of both worlds. The first 3 gears are a little shorter than that of a 5 sp thus allowing the engine to rev quicker into its powerband while not having to work as hard. The 4th and 5th gear could be higher speed gears for top end acceleration and 6th gear as an overdrive for cruising. It basically will give you one more gear for the initial acceleration. Anyone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the same principle applies to automatics. That is why we are starting to see a lot of cars with 5 sp automatics rather than the common 4 sp autos.

bmw323is

kdshapiro - your logic would suggest - "buy the most expensive car you can - because at the higher cost it must be better." Maybe, maybe not.

I sometimes wonder why BMW is more profitable than any other car company besides Porsche. It's a great car - no doubt, but it isn't the only car. I owned an RX-7 15 years ago, and it handled as well as my current 3 series.

butmywife1

I have an '02 325xi with leatherette. It gets pretty warm here in the summer (85-100 degrees) and I noticed a couple of times I'd sweat in the 'ette when wearing shorts. They were short rides, though, and I've not regretted putting the dollars into other options.

ButMyWife

kdshapiro

I owned a Toyota Celica GT-S. In terms of the 0-60 the Celica couldn't touch the 3 series, but on the twisties, this car could out-handle most anything, because it was low and the tires were very wide and would grip. Does that mean it was a better car, yes for me at the time. My friend had a 318i. My Toyota could still outhandle this thing on the twisties. Which car do you think was better in the aggregate? Well you guess. I would have given up the Toyota for the Bimmer anyday. With the 318s small engine, it still could outperform the 2.4L in the Celicia.

I would like to say more expensive is usually better in the aggregate. Does that mean a $100,000 CLK is better than a Crown Victoria. Yes, it probably has a better fit and finish, better engineering, better safety, better materials. But if you can afford the car but can't use it car because you need a people hauler, it doesn't fit your needs. Therefore it isn't better for you. This dichotomy of a subjective "better" arises when our wants and prejudices are not in-line with our needs/requirements. And this leads to all sorts of things, like a perceived marquee image. (you pick the marquee)

kdshapiro

Sweating in the car with shorts on a hot day, is not a unique thing. I used to sweat in my car with cloth seats, except the cloth seats absorbed the persperation.

In the summer I sweat in the car with leather seats, I'm not sure why sweating in a car on a hot day is unusual with any seats.

imadrone

We'll be picking up a 2004 325iT ED in mid-October (SP, manual, HK,). From what I've read, the $1450 leather option is overpriced, less durable, and harder to maintain. However, my honey is insistent on the steel blue metallic with gray interior, and BMW does not offer leatherette in gray. Anyone know why? Any possibility of gray leatherette for 2004?

Thanks, Richard

butmywife1

Thanks. Your comments should give Nerd his answer. If sweating is common with both leather and leatherette seats, he could save money and buy the leatherette (which are really comfortable, by the way).

ButMySweatyWife

innerloop

Two questions --

Has BMW released the EPA MPG estimates for the performance package yet? I'm curious to know if it's below the gas guzzler threshold -- if so, that's equivalent to another $1000 of savings compared to the M3. I really wish BMW could tweak the economy of the M3 since its just barely over the limit and it would be nice to save $1k rather than pay it to the gov't. I would like to pull the trigger on an M3, but the extra taxes and insurance makes it a bit less attractive. Perhaps the PP will be cheaper to insure as well?

Also - Can anyone say definitively which 3 models will have the SMG as an option and when? I've seen occasional mentions but nothing definitive.