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Comments
Going to visit him tomorrow after work, and back again with an old friend on Sunday too.
-Colin
You can't beat Hyundai's price and warranty.
I'm going to go over the BMW 3 series discussion and claim the Hyundai Elantra is better than the BMW 325; of course I don't believe such a claim, I just like to what kind of rebuttal I get.
To put it bluntly, you are Trolling, we get too much of that around here as it is.
Bye!
My Acura dealer sell new for $27.5 So I bet he'll sell TSXs under $25.
I'm going to go over the BMW 3 series discussion and claim the Hyundai Elantra is better than the BMW 325; of course I don't believe such a claim, I just like to what kind of rebuttal I get.
I suppose my earlier posting was to unbelievable to stir up any thought, I'll try again later.
Chris
I bought a 6 year old 318i a few years ago. It had about 80,000 miles on it. The thing was in beautiful condition inside and out. Since it appeared to be in such good shape, I didn't go over the mechanicals the way I should have since I thought all cars were as reliable as the Acura, Toyota and Nissan that I had also owned, I was gullible.
Soon after I bought the 318i, I had an engine overheating problem. I had the car towed to the shop only to find out it had a cracked cylinder head. That cost a great deal of time and money to fix. The car had many electrical system problems, alternator and switches went bad. The windshield wiper motor burned up during a rain storm 300 miles from home and cost around $600 to replace. The power steering system leaked. The car had to be towed 3 times while I owned it.
I only owned it for 9 months, I traded it for a used Prizm and had no more problems.
I learned the hard way that BMW stands for big money waster and I encourage buyers to consider the Japanese nameplates as fine alternatives to Bavarian style.
My BMW had a great ride and fine handling, the tranny was great. But reliability is what I remember most of my Bimmer experience. If you buy a BMW, buy new or lease with an extended warranty.
- Mark
Keep in mind that one bad experience with a used car (regardless of whether it is a BMW or a "Toyonda") is not enough to call all cars of that ilk unreliable.
Best Regards,
Shipo
your 318 was probably owned by someone who just wanted to get into the BMW name (as you might have also been motivated) and was not properly maintained. seen it a million times...
so go on then, you had a bad experience that was directly the result of insufficient dilligence with a used car and are never coming back. big deal! remind me again what value you're going to add to our discussion?
-Colin
According to Consumer reports, BMW, Mercedes, and VW all have more problems than Japanese counterparts.
As for me, I stay away from high mileage used cars, regardless of manufacture.
2. When buying a used car, always, ALWAYS take it to a trusted mechanic (if there is one ;-) for evaluation before buying.
Thanks Jay!
You posted:
According to Consumer reports, BMW, Mercedes, and VW all have more problems than Japanese counterparts.
Just exactly where/when did consumer reports say that?
Best Regards,
Shipo
330xi
STEP
PP
CW
This is my first BMW. What would be a fair price in relation to invoice? 3%? 5%?
Thanks for the help,
-Jay
And my unreliable 330i, with the styling cues and engine beat by a Hyundia, hasn't even seen the dealer in almost a year.
I did see that the 530i was rate their best car of the year, I can't disagree, I'm sure they have improved in recent years. This guy I work with has always had good luck with many bimmers.
-kdshapiro: The part about Hyundai styling was only a joke.
Thanks,
Richard
Back to the orginal question. In general, what's the best deal I can expect on a 3 series, in relation to invoice.
-Jay
Story #2, before buying the Lexi we had a 97 528i & a 95 M3, the 97 in less than a year went through 3 radios, glovebox would not open and the sunroof quit working. The 95 on the other hand NEVER had one single repair.
jay108, so based on this I should not buy either make of car? Right?
My initial criteria was my next car had to be AWD because I drive alot, in all weather. I never stay home because of weather. That's one of the reasons I've been driving the LC for the pass two years ( it's a great vehicle). When you think of it there are not to many mid range choices. I didn't want an Audi, the Mercedes E won't have 4matic until the fall and whatever Jag has AWD is not appealing to me. The 3 series seemed like the best choice. It's probably more personal choice than anything but if I don't need AWD to navigate the winters here than I may buy a 5 series or maybe a 2 year old 7.
Shipo and Brave1heart, have I been looking for the wrong car?
-Jay
Let's don't go down that path. It's not topical, jay108 has had several responses and there is no reason to carry this on any further.
Let's just let it go now.
Thanks.
Best Regards,
Shipo
VW Golf: 50% below average
VW Jetta: 60% below average
MB SLK: 30% below average
Audi TT: 80% below average
BMW 5-series: 10% above average
Audi A6: 25% below average
MB S-class: 50% below average
BMW 3-series: 25% below average
Audi A4: 45% below average
MB C-class: 50% below average
MB M-class: 80% below average
BMW X5: 100% below average
The 5-series is the ONLY German car above average.
Conversely, with the exception of the Mazda Tribute and B-series trucks (which are built by Ford) not a single Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura, Nissan, Infiniti, or Mazda is predicted to have below average reliability.
I love German cars, but you are definitely swimming upstream to say they are as reliable as a Japanese car.
- Mark
...with that said, I am feeling the need to post some thoughts that are somewhat contrary to many of my earlier posts of the last couple of winters. As some of y’all might remember, I had posted fairly frequently that I felt the recommendations made by many of our peers for winter tires were, at best, over-rated. Well, I am now going to (at least in part) contradict myself.
As a point of reference, I graduated from a 1999 328i 5-Speed, PP, Xenon, Harman-Kardon, CD and Metallic Paint to a Sapphire Black/Black Leather, 2002 530i 5-Speed, PP, SP, Premium Audio and Xenon via a wonderful ED trip last April. Shortly after taking delivery of my 530i last May, my wife and I engineered a transfer to the Boston area, and we bought a house in southern New Hampshire. Needless to say, this has been an interesting winter.
Our first snow came on 23-Oct-2002, and even though it was only about two inches, I was hard pressed to get up my driveway! Throughout November we had a few more dustings and driving up my driveway sideways became the norm, not to mention "white knuckling it" while driving along at only 5MPH or so. So, I caved in, and ordered a wheel/tire package from TireRack.com that consisted of four Michelin Arctic-Alpin tires (225/55QR-16) mounted on four Borbet Type H (16x7.5) wheels, total price including shipping $1,007.11. My first chance to use them came on Christmas day, during what turned out to be an eighteen inch snow fall. My first indication that there was something special about these tires was (of course) going up the driveway. Even with over 4" already on the ground, I went right up with without so much as a single flash from the traction control light on the dash! Once on the road (not yet plowed, very rutted and a little slushy as well), I found myself passing cars that were failing in their attempt to climb the various hills around here, and driving right past MANY other vehicles off in the ditch, including TWO police cars! Within a couple of miles I reeled in a conga-line of 4WD vehicles where I made up the caboose. All of this was on a very hilly/winding/heavily crowned two-lane road, and the SUVs and other sundry 4WD vehicles in front of me were having a much more difficult time that I was. Go figure!
Since Christmas, we have had just over four feet of snow which consisted of two eighteen inchers, along with various dustings, ice/freezing rain, and general dumpings, through it all, my 530i (the one that I am no longer driving) has yet to put a paw in the wrong spot. All in all, that is quite amazing for a car that couldn't get out of its own way (literally) prior to mounting the Arctic-Alpins.
As for dry/wet road characteristics, the Arctic-Alpins perform very much the same as did the Michelin MXV4-Plus tires that I had on my 328i. That is to say, quiet, reasonably competent grip and comfortable at highway speeds. Please note if you feel the need to drive over 100 MPH, then you will need to spend an extra $23.00 per tire and get the Michelin Pilot Alpin tires, which carry an "H" rating.
So, to all of those who have been carrying the "Winter Tire" banner all along, please accept my sincere apology, I am sorry I ever doubted you. ;-) For those of you who are still braving slippery roads on summer rubber, or for that matter on all-season rubber, you will be genuinely amazed by the grip afforded by winter tires. In a word, the feeling is "Uncanny".
I hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, make that quote of the month for the "fine alternatives to Bavarian style." part, lol...
I don't know you and your driving preferences but judging by what you've told us, I'd [non-permissible content removed]-ume that you place more weight on luxury, image and status and you are unlikely to be taking your car to the track or drive it aggressively on daily basis. Audi has the best AWD capabilities and MB's are worse than BMW's. To an average driver seeking luxury, they will all be good enough for everyday use. Me, I'd take a RWD with snow tires over an AWD any day. You get better handling, and esp. braking in a lighter, more nimble car (the AWD adds ~ 250 lbs to the 3-series' weight). I somewhat regret getting an A4 Quattro for my wife because the AWD has numbed her sense for the road by giving her a false sense of security, and since it takes at least as long to stop as a FWD or a RWD (all else equal), she's come close to getting in trouble a couple of times. The tires matter more than the drivetrain - think how you'd feel running in snow with your boat shoes during the winter or running with winter boots during the summer.
Two weeks later at the car wash, my distributer flooded and the car had to be towed. A year later the gas guage had to be replaced. Later the gas port separated from the tank and gas started leaking. All these items were immediatly corrected by my dealer at no charge. At 75K miles I drove from Red Bank NJ to Albany NY round trip. I averaged about 85 miles per hour hitting speeds of 110 MPH most of the way. When I returned home I was leaking coolant. Since I was no longer covered under warranty, I had the water pump and timing chain replaced through a non-BMW mechanic at my cost. We found out it was actually a blown head gasket causing the problem and moved the car to the original BMW dealer. A head gasket repair can cost well over $3000 if the head needs to be replaced (aluminum heads sometimes melt or warp) and about $1800 for just the gasket replacement. The dealer did the job for about $1000. I found that blown gaskets with some 318 and 325 MYs were common defects.
My point is that I had only one regret with my BMW purchase. My only regret is not originally buying the 325 which was $6000 more. I still own the 318i (It's my daughters carin my name. At 110K miles, it is still a fantastic car and looks showroom new (Except for the M spoiler my daughter hooked on). I offered to buy her a new Jetta and she said "No thanks Daddy, you and I will save for another BMW". I own a 2001 Acura TL and it is a great car but I still love to jump into the 318 and toss it around. The Acura is fine but the 318 handles considerably better and is much more fun to drive. I am awaiting delivery next week on a new Orient blue/gray 330i and my plan, God willing is to buy a 530i three years from now. In my opinion, a BMW can't really be compared to a Hyundai, KIA, or too many other cars for that matter. Some japanese and American cars are a great value. But, there is something about the German car, personified through the BMW, that is so life affecting, delivers such a pride of ownership, a classic value, a memory maker and a fun car that will never bore you (like I do).
Dan
Now, about the Infiniti QX4 that my wife drives now, CR stated in April 2002 that it is the "most reliable vehicle on the road."
FWIW: Consumer Reports 4/2003 says to avoid 2000-2001 BMW 3 series; they also say to avoid Chevy Venture which my wife drives and its been pretty good.
Probably the main reason I don't have a luxury car at this point is my small kids might scratch it getting bikes and toys out of the garage, that phase will pass in a few more years.
BTW, I'll be putting 4 snow tires on even with the AWD. I guess after 47 winters in New England I'm not willing to take any chances.
Thanks again for the insights,
-Jay
Chris
My BMW hasn't seen my dealer for an unscheduled visit in nearly a year (slightly less). So while CR might have their methodology to predict reliability, I do agree anecdotally that Japanese cars are more reliable, in my case however, I haven't seen it.
bigorange - Most people I know do not put reliability first when buying a car. If they did, buying patterns would be very different. Predicted reliability is one part of the overall equation. Honda would have gone into bankruptcy if people really took the transmission issue as legend and gospel. While we may debate overall reliability from model to model, people I know ensure their future car is not a clunker. They don't look to see if CR rates it #1 overall in reliability and then makes a decision based on that.
I was? I didn't know that. What I was trying to say is that regardless of how reliable CR thinks Japanese cars are (an issue that I have yet to be convinced of); CR gave the 530i their highest ranking ever. Indirectly that seems to imply a fairly reliable car because I am sure that if the 530i wasn't reliable, CR would never have given it the ranking it did.
In a separate issue regarding how CR ranks the 3-Series, I have to wonder what they are thinking. It seems that due to the 2001 Aux. Cooling Fan issue (Siemens AG delivered a faulty series of cooling fans to BMW and caused all sorts of havoc, which has since been rectified) CR has removed the 3-Series from their list of recommended cars. In a separate development, in spite of Honda's 3+ years of transmission problems (my neighbor has two affected Hondas that collectively have suffered three transmission failures), these cars are still recommended.
From where I sit, I am more than happy to stay with my "Unreliable" German cars, which have been almost totally reliable (I am currently on my fifth one, and the only one that had any issues was my limited production 1982 Audi Coupe Quattro). As for "Reliable" Japanese cars, my one and only example was such a pile of junk that I had to dump it (at a substantial loss I might add) after only 19 months. Guess what I replaced it with. Yup, a German car.
Best Regards,
Shipo
That doesn't imply that at all. It only has to be relaible for a few days to get through their test. The test has nothing to do with reliability.
As far as their list of recommended cars, that's a subjective thing that I don't put as much stock in as I do the actual data. Fortunately the recommendation is based on the data but tries to take it and put it into a summary. I like to go by the red and black circles because that is the ACTUAL data. Their OPINIONS about test drives are good but should be taken with many others. Everyone has an opinion and they are all different in some way. If the criteria is handling and performance and you want to know before you buy, read many test reviews and then take a test drive yourself. These things can be very subjective. CR's red and black cirlces on reliability are just factual data that require no subjective interpretation.
I disagree with that assertion, that a vehicle is rated the "best ever" based on a couple of days worth of testing and it only has to not break down in 2 days.
I do agree that reliability is one component of CRs overall rating, however, one could rightfully assume, an overpriced unreliable piece of junk is not going to get crowned, the "best ever". Even if other venues may be "more reliable".
Best Regards,
Shipo
I cannot imagine that CR would be so supportive of a vehicle if they had reservations regarding its reliability. It just wouldn't be logical when considering their fundamental reason for being.
On the last point you make, I suspect you and shipo are more in alignment than you think. I agree with you that the empirical data is the only thing one can "bet on", but I also agree with shipo (if I understand him correctly) in that one needs to consider *what* problem(s) the empirical data is reflecting. If we know that the black circle is because of problem 'X' and we also know that problem 'X' has since been fixed, then it stands to reason that we can derive for ourselves the expected reliability of a vehicle that is built today.
Thanks for listening.
And I agree that CR's data is at the 50K level. It is based on how many "problems" are reported by owners and in the first few years, 90% of problems are with electronic gizmos and accessories. So if Mercedes has an endemic problem with window switches that fail early, or VW/Audi ships a lot of cars with bad coils, then their ratings get dragged down big time even though the problem may be minor or isolated. The trouble associated with replacing a couple window switches or coils during warranty may be noise level to the ownership experience, but it will drag down ratings.
As an example, my 98 Lexus GS showed only average reliability when it first shipped, which is doing poorly for a Lexus model. It turns out that this was almost entirely driven by virtually every GS shipping with bad window pin switches. Within a few months of the car shipping, Lexus recalled them all, replaced all the switches, and gave every owner a $100 check to cover their trouble. It was a complete non-issue, but someone might have looked at the data and thought that the first-year GS was some kind of lemon, which statistically it was. A few years later, this one-time thing has gotten lost in the noise and the car now shows excellent reliability.
Another issue is that CR "predicts" reliability for a new car based on previous data. It's just a prediction and the car may do better or worse. They're predicting below average for a 2003 3-series because 2000, 2001, and 2002 models have been in the shop more then average. But maybe BMW has fixed this stuff and now the car will do fine. We don't know.
A final issue is the CR has a "binary" judgement on reliability. If a car is below average, it is not recommended, if average or above it is. An informed buyer might factor reliability in their decision, but it seems arbitrary to exclude a truly great car that is heads above all others just because its statistical reliabliity is a couple points below an arbitrary bar.
Having said all this, if trouble-free operation out of the box is really important to you and/or you get really annoyed with a new car having any problems, one should avoid the German cars, especially Audi/VW. And BMWs have had some real nasty problems over the past decade: the Nikasil issue with the small V8s, the plastic water pump impellers, the bad thermostats, the M3 rod bearings, and cracked E36 rear shock towers. I don't think Honda's auto tranny issues rise to the level of any of these problems.
So I recommend German cars to people who place a little higher priority on the driving and are willing to roll with the punch a little with a few issues, especially early-on electrical and electronic issues. But if you want something with the best chance of working cleanly right out of the chute, get a Toyota or Honda. IOW, there is no way I'm going to recommend a German car to my mother-in-law. And I think customer support at the premium Japanese brands (Lexus and Infiniti) is in a different class from any German car, even BMW and MB.
For me I make CR's reliability prediction another factor to consider. I'm shopping between an Acura TSX and a 325i right now. I fully believe the TSX will be the more reliable car and that is something in its favor. But it is only one thing to consider and since I think the 325i will be "reliable enough" it isn't a huge factor.
- Mark
I cannot imagine that CR would be so supportive of a vehicle if they had reservations regarding its reliability. It just wouldn't be logical when considering their fundamental reason for being.
On the last point you make, I suspect you and shipo are more in alignment than you think. I agree with you that the empirical data is the only thing one can "bet on", but I also agree with shipo (if I understand him correctly) in that one needs to consider *what* problem(s) the empirical data is reflecting. If we know that the black circle is because of problem 'X' and we also know that problem 'X' has since been fixed, then it stands to reason that we can derive for ourselves the expected reliability of a vehicle that is built today.
Thanks for listening.
We live within a few feet of each other. I am in the red brick townhomes on Maroneal.
We are neighbors.
I am a resident too. I just couldn't wait any longer and pulled the trigger on the M. I finish in
6/2004.
Drop me a line and we will go for a drive.
The "most satisfying" data is taken from their annual questionnaire in which they ask subscribers this question: "Considering all factors (price, performance, reliability, comfort, enjoyment, etc.) would you buy this car if you had it to do all over again?" (page 9) The two top cars are the BMW 3 Series and the Lexus ES 300!
I think probably a novice reader researching this issue to make a car buying decision could come away somewhat confused about the BMW 3 Series!
While I don’t doubt for a second that less well equipped Japanese cars with much less electrical components, will seem to be more reliable than a $50,000 German car, I’m not sure a $50,000 German car will be any less reliable than a $50,000 Japanese car in 5-10 years. While some can open CR and say: “See, see, you’re wrong”, I think all of these high end cars will ultimately succumb to their high end electrical components no matter where they were manufactured.
For what it is worth, my current German car, is the poster child for the JD Power initial quality survey. Unlike my last 3 Nissans. The issues that I brought the car to the dealer for, were: 1) the radio crackling and 2) damage to the one of the rims. The dealer could not fix the radio, as it seems to be part and parcel of the BMW Business Class radio. The damage to the rims were suspicious, but the dealer replaced the rims. That was it, almost a year ago.
I hope BMW wakes up and smells the cam-shafts. The competition is getting stiffer. Where is valvetronic?