Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause

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Comments

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    The ins co have been involved with gvt collusion here in Cda for years, so it could be way worse for you.

    We have a mandatory charge for every vehicle with a VIN, which includes, bikes, snowmobiles, ATV's, boat, PWC etc etc.
    It's called Accident Benefits and if your policy costs 2000 bucks, 1750 of that will be just the Accident Benefits.
    Well lets say you work in a factory or any other place of work that has Accident Benefits built into their packages (representing the majority of the work force) And let's say you are unfortunate enough to be in a crash and make a bodily injury claim. Well for starters, guess which insurance plan pays out first even tho your car crash was on vacation and not even within 3000 miles of your workplace? That's right...the AB from your work place. If for some reason your claim gets exceeded (very rare) THEN they take from the auto AB part of your policy. But that is far from the very corrupt, crooked end of it. Remember, you have to pay for that AB portion on every single VIN you own. And you can only drive one at a time right? So u might say, well what if someone uninsured drives that vehicle and gets in an at fault crash? Well guess what? We ALSO pay what is called an "underinsured motorist" fee on every one of the VINS also. Like so much 'legalized' taxation in Cda, we pay redundant fees over and over again. This country has redundant charges down to a fine art. And to ad insult on injury of course they charge all the other taxes we pay including our 13% HST. (a tax on basically every expletive thing)

    And you might ask why I say they are collusive with gvt? Well because you can't renew a lic sticker or anything else without showing proof of insurance.

    So add up all those AB's on just a very realistic average family that might have
    2 cars, a motorcycle, one or two snowmobiles, a boat and a PWC, and BAM, you just racked up SEVEN AB charges. And remember they represent (depending on your policy) the largest percent hit of your policy by a long shot.
    As for my personal costs, I think my AB chg is close to 800. on a policy total of 1200. And that is with a low risk customer with no claims beyond the odd windshield, no tickets (for over 20 years) no accidents etc etc for over 35 years.

    And of course I just love paying the underinsured motorist fee as an insult on injury. Gotta love paying the way for the criminal. And guess who pays his 5000 fine if he is actually caught driving without insurance? Yup, not the criminal. You can't get blood out of a stone. And when we send the lowlife to jail...guess who pays that also, to the tune of about 70 thousand bucks a year??
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    It's even worse in most of the U.S., I'm afraid to say. What you have described is only half of what California puts me through.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I guess in CA i am not all that surprised, but i know for a fact that Texan's have what i feel is a pretty fair system (altho i don't know all the ins and outs beyond 2 car ownership. I asked, but she wasn't sure). They get a big break on the 2nd vehicle (here we get 5%) even with two drivers.
  • frankok1frankok1 Member Posts: 56
    Ya I'm sure Saylor freaked out - still hard to believe he wouldn't or couldn't dislodge a stuck floor mat if it was stuck. The passenger who made the 911 call could have helped as Saylor "toasted" the brakes.

    Brake override would have been the solution even in panic - as he pressed the brakes. Nissan commercials say they have had it for 6 years - Toyota's defense is now that one has to press the brake pedal for brake override to work - claiming other cases are from old farts like me pushing the accelerator in panic. Maybe for parking lots but not for the many high-speed incidents - still a possibility for the YOUNG cop, Saylor.
    http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/green-tech/advanced-cars/lawyers-try-new-ang- le-against-toyota-in-sua-lawsuits
    "Brake override only works when your foot is on the brake," a Toyota spokesperson was quoted as saying in the LA Times story.

    Back to contest extension request - what about it Mr. Shiftright? - I doubt there is a winner or else you would have told the NHTSA to save lives as I did with my remote possible cause. EDMUNDS could get more publicity with a new contest as NASA now says it will be later for their Toyota report and the other group of gurus say a report on all vehicles will be done in June:
    http://www8.nationalacademies.org/cp/projectview.aspx?key=49236

    The contest could be that the cause has to be as described by NASA/NESC team tests. It can't be nebulous such as "due to a computer code glitch". The computer code error needs described. I believe that is why NASA asked for an extension - see the report on the code checker MISRA I passed on to them - hope they have it or something better. See:
    http://www.oregonsae.org/Meetings/misra_C.pps
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited January 2011
    "...Brake override would have been the solution.."

    Not if the throttle were mechanically stuck wide open..!

    Or any other of a veritable myriad of SUA causes.

    A true brake override would need to be a method of shutting the engine off, open the fuel pump circuit, say.

    Oh, and that Nissan commercial is just flat out misleading, or lying in the sense of the Saylor incident.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not my department, but you could forward that request to the Help Desk and they are good about channeling that to the right party:

    http://www.edmunds.com/help/
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited January 2011
    I recommend wiring in a click type toggle switch (the type you'd see on typical old vacuums and the like that require 10lbs or more force to operate) between your car's computer and the battery. If something goes wrong, just turn the power off that way. If it doesn't have a physical key and a hard-wired power lead to it, it's you hoping that some software interprets your desire to shut the thing off correctly.

    If you're even more handy, you can also just wire up the injector solenoid(s) or fuel pump relay to the switch. No fuel means no go in as little as a couple of seconds. On most vehicles, though, the it's under the hood, and is a bit trickier to wire up. On mine, it's a 2X3 inch brick near the brake booster. (interestingly enough, the same type of 30A relay "module" also is used to power the air suspension and the ABS - nice cost-saving measure as in a pinch you can sacrifice one to keep the car running.

    EDIT - this also is a nearly fail-safe anti theft device if it's out of plain sight.

    I also do the same with every car that I've owned concerning the annoying door buzzer. When I resell the car, I flip it back on and notify the new owner of the modification/choice in the matter.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    hmmm...not so sure that this so-called "myriad" of SUA causes is much more than grains of sand sifting through fingers at this point in the investigation---or ANY UA investigation for that matter.
  • carguyfrankcarguyfrank Member Posts: 11
    Lets cut out all the mumbo-jumbo about what caused the unintended acceleration, all the driver needed to do was put the vehicle in NEUTRAL and put on the brakes... Yes, it's really that simple!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    It's pretty obvious that Saylor did "put on the brakes", rather seriously so. And there is NO evidence that he did, or did not, put the shifter into neutral. But simple logic tells us that more likely than otherwise he tried shifting into neutral.

    Have you ever tried to move a manual shifter "out of gear" without the clutch and with the gears under HIGH torque..?

    Under high torque loading, WOT and FULL braking, the transaxle clutches may/might not have disengaged even if the ATF pressure was removed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    I really don't think he did, or he'd probably be alive today. Logic tells us, I think, that in such a panic situation, the vast majority of people would first hit the brakes, then try to turn off the key---the last thing we'd do is try to put the car in neutral, because we are taught that this is a pretty stupid thing to do under normal circumstances---to put a racing engine into neutral. It's completely counter-intuitive. whereas BRAKE means "stop" and OFF means off.

    Shifting into neutral with WOT should be no harder than shifting from 2 to 3 or 3 to D under WOT. Cars do it all the time.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Obviously you have never driven an old non-synchromesh fully loaded 4- speed dump truck downhill, steep downhill, and tried to downshift without using the clutch.

    "..Cars do it all the time..."

    I don't know of anyone who has intentionally laid on the brakes, HARD, with simultaneous WOT (FWD) and tried to shift up or down or even into neutral. Not exactly a commonplace event, that.

    Think of the inner and outer splines on that transaxle clutch set. Would the spring return really be able to push the clutch disks apart with so much side torque applied to those splines...?

    I rather doubt that being something the design engineers even considered in selecting the clutch return spring force.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    pure speculation :surprise:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You are a kick sometimes. You come up with the most extreme examples....now, c'mon...we aren't talking about a dump truck--lol!

    Many people, everyday, shift an automatic gearbox at WOT throttle through the gears. You can do it with one finger.

    But we're on the same page on one matter---it is not intuitive to shift a car into neutral during a UA event.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2011
    Obviously you have never driven an old non-synchromesh fully loaded 4- speed dump truck downhill, steep downhill, and tried to downshift without using the clutch.

    And, this relates to Toyota UA in what way?

    None at all, since its a MANUAL transmission.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    What I was trying to say is that the torque on a set of gears, gearteeth, can be so great that it becomes virtually impossible to disengage them absent removing at least some of the torque load, loading.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes I understand and with a 5 speed manual dumptruck hurtling down a mountainside, you could be right---but----but it seems that ordinary automatic tranmission cars do this all the time without difficulty. Go try it on a freeway on ramp....put the automatic trans in "1" or "L" or whatever, go WOT, then manually shift up a gear.... I don't want you to ram it in neutral of course---but if it can go from 1, 2,3 to 4 without difficulty, I don't see why it can't go into neutral.

    Now then---if you're gonna come up with an idea that some defect allows you to go through all the gears in WOT but prevents you from going into neutral, I'm going to roll my eyes, I promise. :P
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Methinks you're missing one of the two MAIN points. WOT...and......

    ..Simultaneous SEVERE, HARD, braking, as much as one of us could muster given our family at RISK, imminent RISK.

    At WOT throttle the transaxle would have been in the lowest gear possible under the shift pattern "rules". WOT, engine driving the FRONT wheels, wheels that are your primary resource for slowing/stopping the vehicle.

    So you have the two MAIN sources of HP, the front brakes and the engine, trying to MIGHTILY overcome the other. Pick one of the "engaged" transaxle clutches and think about just how much geartooth TORQUE is applied under those circumstances.

    Obviously only a theory....
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    edited January 2011
    "Methinks you're missing one of the two MAIN points..."

    "Obviously only a theory"


    :P Hahahahahahhahahahahahha :P
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Putting an automatic into neutral, while at WOT is easily done.
    In the 70s, we had many times where the throttle spring would snap and the vehicle went to WOT and you tossed it into neutral and shut it down.
    Since it was something that you learned about, it wasn't too much of a problem.
    As for dump trucks, they usually run a 9 speed or 13 speed transmission and while it can take some effort to kick them into neutral under load, it can be done. That is a case of comparing apples to oranges.
    Lack of proper training accounts for a percentage of these problems.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2011
    You'd know better than me, but drive by wire throttles and transmissions likely don't have any springs. The theory bandied about in here is that the software hung somehow so that moving the shift lever had no effect on the transmission itself.

    Software is weird. Sometimes great members can't log on here and we can't figure out why. :D
  • carguyfrankcarguyfrank Member Posts: 11
    I've been saying this since the forum first started. Just put the vehicle into neutral..
    The shift lever is physically connected to the transmission
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Lexus ES has an electronically controlled automatic transmission I think.

    No physical connection, other than the wiring.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Thank you for saying "I think" rather than "methinks".

    (It's just one of those pretentious, in-vogue, cliches that bugs me) :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That word is about as archaic as shift linkages. :-)

    You might enjoy this discussion here:

    Grammar and the Peeves that Pet It
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2011
    Nope, it looks like shift cable activated, at least from the diagram. :(
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You mean Wikipedia is wrong? I can't believe it. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it might SHIFT electrically but that's when it's in automatic mode, shifting itself through the gears. When you move the lever, though, it looks like a cable does that. I'm looking at a 2009 350ES so maybe the victim's car was different.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's been a long time since I owned a pinball machine, but those solenoids can get sticky too.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..it can take some effort...."

    My point, EXACTLY....

    In an automatic transmission the drum clutch gear teeth sets are "unmeshed" using a relatively light return spring. Is the spring design strong enough to unmesh those clutch disks/plates if on one side the engine, WOT, 200+ HP, is driving, and on the other side the front brakes are "restraining". 400+ HP across the input/output of the automatic transaxle.

    So yes, that dump truck gear tooth set can be de-coupled with enough elbow grease appled, on the end of a long lever for multiplying the effort.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Oh give up already. Dump trucks use manual transmissions with...are you paying attention?? a CLUTCH! Imagine the concept..push it in and just what amount of torque, besides gear oil drag, is going to be on the gearsets you so vehemently are suggesting have torque lock on?
    And I have driven dump trucks, and trailer dump trucks and I have even driven automatic tranny dumps, and I can definitively inform you, that there is so much free wheeling that takes place when you back outta the throttle it is disconcerting to say the least. If you're looking for any engine braking, you'll find more in your run-of-the-mill auto-equipped family minivan.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited January 2011
    Even if you shift lever IS somehow connected directly to your automatic transmission all it does is move a hydraulic valving spool within the valve body. If the torque converter happens to be operating at "stall" torque, as it would likely be at WOT and HARD braking, the drum clutch disks may not "unmesh" even with the release of hydraulic pressure.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'll try this out if I get a chance but really I have no way to prove it right now. I just feel confident that a baby could do it---but you know, I don't know for sure.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If it weren't for the distinct possibility of "toasting" an already questionable transaxle ('01 RX300 F/awd, 80,000 miles) I would go out, put it in drive and WOT to the point of converter stall, brakes FULL ON, and shift into neutral just to see.

    It isn't a matter if a baby could do it, it's a matter if the drum clutch piston return/release springs are strong enough to unmesh the drum clutch disks with so much side torque, 400+HP, on their gear teeth.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    There are some electronically controlled transmissions out there, so it is possible that a malfunction in the computer programming could keep it from shifting to neutral, but there would have to be 2 malfunctions. 1 malfunction in the throttle control and 1 malfunction in the shift controls. While it is possible that happens, the likelihood is pretty slim.
    The other possibility is that the program froze and locked everything out. While that shouldn't happen, it is a possibility.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Another possibility is that there is a mean little gremlin residing somewhere in the transmission. He is about 6 inches tall, green, with a very bad disposition. To complicate matters further he is also invisible. :confuse:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I like to refer to arguments resting on invisible elements as the "god of the gaps" argument, wherein the absence of something is the proof of it.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I like to refer to arguments resting on invisible elements as the "god of the gaps" argument, wherein the absence of something is the proof of it.

    Ahh, yes....

    The mantra of all conspiracy theorists...

    Prove it didn't happen....
  • la4meadla4mead Member Posts: 347
    >"Another possibility is that there is a mean little gremlin residing somewhere in the transmission. He is about 6 inches tall, green, with a very bad disposition...."

    And in this case, the angry gremlin does not recognize it's actions as the cause, therefore accepts no responsibility.

    The driver must still be using the correct pedal to stop (if the car is not stopping, check your right foot).

    Speaking of Gremlins however, I remember experiencing the broken accelerator spring when I was unexperienced with cars. Cars of that era (70's and before) often ran at WOT when the accelerator spring broke. I had that experience when I was 16 driving my dad's Hornet. The pedal just went to the floor and prying it up with my foot only revealed it was no longer connected. By then I was moving three times the speed limit through a school zone. The non-assisted drum brakes could not begin to overcome the engine's torque. I quickly learned I had to get it into neutral and turn the key off. The runaway design of the accelerator cable was a sign of the times... cars weren't really designed to fail safely. It is possible, but not very likely, that DBW could do the same thing.

    But somehow I doubt that '70's era issue of safe design costs too much money now. Auto manufacturers now consider fail safe designs important enough to spend $ on because they are wary of the costs if their design is flawed and someone gets hurt. Still the driver has to carry responsibility for operating the vehicle and stopping it as soon as possible, even if a failure occurs.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Still the driver has to carry responsibility for operating the vehicle and stopping it as soon as possible, even if a failure occurs.

    Unfortunately, far too many today don't see it that way. If something bad happens, then it MUST BE SOMEONE ELSE'S fault, and some amount of money should be paid to "correct" the condition...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You are required to be in control of your vehicle at all times, but you're right, some juries don't seem to understand this.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..You are required..."

    But with so much electronic wizardry, "black magic", between the driver and "control" it is completely understandable why juries are granting more and more leeway.

    My own expereince, TWICE, was that I would have been able to stop safely before rear-ending, VERY lightly rear-ending, the car in front had not the ABS kicked in on a perfectly dry and highly tractive surface thereby extending my stopping distance just ever so slightly.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But there again, you are supposed to leave lots of room for unusual circumstances. Maybe you pumped the brakes? That decreases ABS efficiency (you probably know that).
  • tz2026tz2026 Member Posts: 26
    How can anyone possibly be in control of their vehicle at all times if there are complex mechanisms overriding or second-guessing what they are doing? If it takes several seconds to turn a vehicle off, I'm not in control.

    The problem with juries and black-box-wizardry is NOT that the juries aren't capable of understanding, but that the manufacturers don't want to actually show what is inside the black box - and maybe for good reason. If everything was coded to critical safety system failsafe standards with full traceability, then the juries could trust it. Right now it is "yea, it's like your old computer running windows 95, but trust us that it works perfectly".
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Good point, but additionally, pumping reduces vacuum assist in the reservoir which increases pedal effort, thereby also contributing to longer stopping distances. And the higher the engine is revving, the less vacuum is available from the get-go.

    I'm sure that in whatever cases there truly was a jammed computer or gas pedal, that pumping and freak-outtedness, was compounded by this lack of power assist.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing redundant vacuum assist electric motors that would take over in event of poor manifold vacuum presence.
    Diesels use such a system since they don't provide natural manifold vacuum.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But do you *really* believe that? I mean, would you really get in a modern car if you were convinced that you cannot be in control of it, without impediment of weather or other drivers, I mean.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited January 2011
    Well, once a vehicle is in motion, you are never 100% in total control... due to the laws of physics.

    So, I agree with your earlier statement. You are responsible for making sure you create a sufficient "window of opportunity" that will allow you to avoid an accident.

    If not so, then no one would ever be cited for following too closely in a rear-end collision. The accepted defense would then be "I can't be in control of my vehicle when it is in motion, so therefore I am not responsible".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You often see this attitude expressed in the language used:

    "My car hit a tree"

    "The key got lost"

    Somehow the individual got lost in translation.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    A recent one from my wife, "That dish just fell from my hand".

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well that at least was scientifically correct. Had the claim been that the dish flew out of her hands and into your forehead, that would arouse suspicion in a court of law.
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