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Comments
May I suggest you use that line on your "know it all" "godlike" oncologist should you ever have need of one.
You don't ever need to use the power button to shut off the Prius's engine. That stops automatically as you slow down, or you can merely flip the little lever into neutral. The button is just to turn off the electronics. And of course you need your pocket key to do any of this.
"..You don't ever need to use the power button to shut off the Prius' engine. That stops automatically as you slow down...."
Provided you're not UA.....
"Asked about problems with the rest of the meters, Aman said, "The majority of the people who complain about high water bills have some issue that is not associated with the meter. Many, many of them have either leaks, or increases in usage through irrigation or pool filling that they didn't fully understand the impact of, but that's not to minimize the fact that we do have some cases of meters that aren't functioning properly. And we're addressing those on a case-by-case basis and giving people their money back. To me, the story here is there has been a complete loss of trust between the city and its citizens and its customers."
The city has not found issues with meter manufacturer Neptune Technologies Inc. or Systems and Software Inc. which installed the billing software, Aman said. Executives at both companies declined interview requests. Two other contractors that installed meters at commercial locations did not return calls.
"We have not found a smoking gun, if you will, in terms of a system problem," Aman told CNN."
and it continues ...
"That doesn't convince residents like Wilda Cobb, who is astounded at a water bill that now totals $10,071.
Her bill spiked to more than $1,200 in November, then skyrocketed to $6,879 in December.
"I am furious, I am upset, I'm confused," Cobb said. "I can't get an answer from the city because they won't admit there is a problem."
A city official reviewed Cobb's bills, and said the unusually high usage for the two months would normally mean there was some kind of leak, possibly with the irrigation system. The city installed a data logger meter that tracks usage during each day.
Her latest bill is down to just $34."
So no leak or human error, just a new data logger meter, and the problem goes away. But there is no official, recognized problem? Right.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/01/water.bills.war/index.html?hpt=T2#
Hey, I've never tried throwing the key out the window with the car running. I must try that sometime if I can think of a safe way to do it. I'd hate to lose a friend's key.
I do know that if you leave the car after you've parked and don't shut it down with the button, it'll stay on all night.
Non-driver error UA is not a "normal" operation.
Now do the Prius test again, as an example of what simple failures might do, with the brake light switch disconnected.
Or mechanically block the throttle plate wide open...will the ICE controlling ECU still provide the right fuel mixture to sustain high RPM/torque or will it "recognize" the anomaly and use fuel cut to alleviate a UA..?
"Throttle blocked open..."
Was that what happened with the guy that drove the car all the way to the dealer with the engine UA...? No codes set, the dealer "shot-gunned" a solution, replaced probable failure components based on pure guesswork
You need a real target in order to hit something---so whatever he shotgunned, it fixed something, and it wasn't the car's computer.
Besides, human error explains that incident better than anything else---the guy forgot to shut the car off.
again, the ol' scenario
driver has problem
driver can't cope
driver is rescued, or not
no technician can find any similar problem, ever again.
We don't know if the "shot-gunned" parts fixed the car or not.
Does anyone know the history of this car post this incident...?
"..the guy forgot to shut the car off..."
No, the "guy" knew he was close to the dealer and he made the decision that he wanted to get the car to the dealer for an "expert" analysis. Apparently the dealer service personel made the same call, they didn't want to shut the engine down prior to an analysis of why the engine continued running at an elevated RPM.
I mean, would YOU....now, really....a screaming WOT throttle car with smoking brakes lurching through traffic and you decide to drive crosstown for the sake of scientific inquiry in order to make the world a better place for future Toyota drivers everywhere?
Er......no. I'm definitely not buying that.
My guess would be that the engine over-rev had occurred previous and this was the best way to get it analyzed for certain.
Doesn't anyone do any research on these cases before making assumptions and comments???
The articles are readily available...
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-witho- ut-floor-mat.html
From the article...
Toyota Avalon displays unintended acceleration without floor mat By Mark Kleis Friday, Jan 15th, 2010 @ 3:26 p.m.
In a rather bizarre instance, a driver reportedly began to experience unintended acceleration from his Toyota Avalon and was able to drive the car to a nearby dealer with the vehicle still displaying wide open throttle, despite having the floormat removed. Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.
According to a report from The Safety Record, on December 29, 2009, the driver of a 2007 Toyota Avalon experienced a bizarre case of sudden and unintended acceleration while driving on the highway, just miles from a local Toyota dealer. The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.
The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.
This incident was apparently not the first for the driver, either, who had been to the dealer before about the problem. The first time the unintended acceleration occurred, the driver was able to slow the vehicle with the brakes and switch the vehicle into neutral – where the engine continued to hit maximum rpms. At the time of the first incident, dealer diagnostics revealed no problems in the computer.
The dealer eventually offered to replace the throttle body, accelerator pedal and associated sensors free of charge for the driver after the second incident.
Hmmm...I guess that blows your theory that it would be impossible to "slip into neutral", eh?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
IMO, that makes the mose sense of all possibilities. Especially, when something like that has happened to an owner multiple times... owner frustration quite often over-rules common sense.
Who hasn't had an experience at the dealership ending in "Well, we couldn't duplicate the problem...".
I tend to agree.
No, not at all. There is no factual reason to believe this engine UA had the same causative factor as others. Second, did this driver by chance figure out that he had to release the brakes momentarily in order to shift into neutral...?
But I agree, if the engine RPM were actually rising to the rev limit when in neutral I think I would have switched the key off and called a tow truck.
Wonder what they did with the parts they removed - may be a subject of the emails that they are trying to protect for lawsuits.
Wonder if the model had an easy gear shift sequence from drive to neutral unlike some other stupid sequence.
If it wasn't the floor mats, "live lock", sticky pedal, or driver error, what was it ?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Early, different, inception of "livelock"..?
Otherwise I haven't a clue.
Good answer !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The throttle body was replaced and it appears that we can assume there was no further repetition of the event.
So my answer is...
Mechanically stuck throttle plate, or faulty TPS sensor that made the ECU think the throttle was at idle when it was really ~50% open. But we should disregard the latter since there is an indication pushing the gas pedal did not result in a rise in engine RPM.
So back to...
Stuck throttle plate..
Damn..but that would have recorder a fault.
So...guess what..?
What we're left with is Dr. Gilbert's experiment.
Dr. Gilbert proved that no code would be set if the two sensors in the gas pedal were shorted together.
Just a Dr. Gilbert proved, short BOTH gas pedal position sensors to the 5 volt supply and the engine would go WOT and no code will be set...!
No one can know if anything Dr. Gilbert showed "has or COULD" happen in a real world scenario.
There was no one under the hood of any of these cars "shorting" sensors together, and nothing that showed NASA or NTHSA or anyone else that anything like his tests ever occurred in a LIVE car.
My guess would be that the engine over-rev had occurred previous and this was the best way to get it analyzed for certain
If you had bothered to look the incident up before making judgments, no guesswork would have been involved.
But, to be fair, you aren't the only one here that does that.
And, that's where I personally take issue with posters that simply opinine without doing even the smallest amount of research on a topic.... Especially in cases where folks have lost their lives.
IMO, it shows a gross disrespect to the victims of these tragedies...
Still, its an opinion forum, and that's just the way some folks roll....its a free country.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/dr-gilbert-explains-his-research-into-toyota-el- - ectronics/
Key quote: What I have done is, I have shown that in the fault detection strategy of the Toyota systems, there is a window of opportunity where [an error] could occur and not be detected.
I actually had read the article but quite some time ago and not necessarily this exact same one.
So, was my guess really a guess or simply something buried so far back in my memory that I had no "conscious" memory of same..?
I think I will try that excuse on my wife sometime when she has me cornered !!
Be honest now, are you really Bill "Slick Willy" Clinton ? And please, just what does "is" mean?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Re: Post 1750 (Feb 16, 2011):
Can you refer me to the official police report wherein Barnard was interviewed.
There's only One official police report.
If you had read it, you 1- would know how to access it, and 2-remember such an important section of the report.
But, again, I say that you aren't the only one with that viewpoint.
Both event documents could easily be found via Google, yet it seems some feel no need to actually know the details about the events they are talking about. Finding the information is not rocket science...
I don't know about that, but its a cost that will be eventually passed on to the buyer, and it removes any concern (or it should) that a potential owner might have about UA.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/dr-gilbert-explains-his-research-into-toyota-el- - - ectronics/
Key quote: What I have done is, I have shown that in the fault detection strategy of the Toyota systems, there is a window of opportunity where [an error] could occur and not be detected.
The problem, once again, with Dr. Gilbert's study was that it failed to show how the "window of opportunity" could actually occur in the real world.
That doesn't make the study any less important, but think about it this way...
I can easily demostrate how your hair dryer will electrocute you while you are taking a bath. The problem is.... I must also show how the hair dryer ends up in your bath with you.
That is why Dr. Gilbert's study really didn't go anywhere, because he has yet to demonstrate how the "causation" event can occur in the automobile...without tampering with the circuitry...
It's Bernard if that helps any in the search. And he was interviewed in the Saylor police report (there's not one for Bernard).
busiris, "Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause" #877, 20 Jun 2010 5:51 pm
I got this (along with a picture) in an email today...
Monica Lewinsky turns 44.
Has it been that long?
Well....No, not really...she's 37.
It pays to "fact-check".
Still... I feel old!
Oh, and I agree that answering a question by posing a question is generally considered an "evasive" move... "What is 'is'?"
Last thing I want is a gravestone that says "nonetheless, I was right"
What I said turned out to be true regardless of whether or not I remembered at the conscious level or at the "ID" (Forbidden Planet) level.
"..try that excuse...
Only works if you're 70+
It turned out that I had read that report at least twice previously but didn't remember that Barnard was interviewed....
And no, while I am from Arkansas I am NOT Bill.
What I said turned out to be true regardless of whether or not I remembered at the conscious level or at the "ID" (Forbidden Planet) level.
I dunno....
In my opinion, a guess is always a guess, even if one gets lucky and the guess happens to be right...
I certainly wouldn't want my doctor simply guessing... I'd want him to process the available information and come to an educated decision for his diagnosis.... not a guess.
Guess not, Asimov, 1942...
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
If the Toyota were "found out" by technicians, that might threaten its existence.
I HAVE IT----UA is a "conscious" action!!
So, did it burn open, over-current, or did the spot welded "whisker" from the silicon die to the terminal post come open...due to manufacturing defect or vibration spike?
Are the 2 hall effect sensors for detecting the gas pedal position on one silicon die or two? With a single die it is entirely possible for a substrate fault to result in the two sensor outputs being shorted together...substrate biased at 5V..?
Even with two separate dies a short is entirely possible.
Any that undetectable "short" (no codes set) is the most likely cause for the aforementioned engine UA.
Toyota's robots, like the NipponDenso engineers, are too dumb to "know".
Join me in a chat over at facebook..?
What? Say he didn't do the testing - I would bet the rate of recalls, repairs, brake override installation and thus drop in incidents would have been 1/10'th - the NHTSA hearings with his testimony and Toyota/Exponent rebuttles were that important last year. All the publicity also taught many how to overcome UA and not to drive with your left foot.
There also may be tweaking of pedal designs - although Toyota's were not worse than others - so that doesn't explain differences as was the case with Audis.
Toyota has many fewer complaints now - still more than others - see:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/02/special-report-toyota-acceleration- - -complaints-drop-following-recalls.html
and were much worse before the Saylor incident and recalls - AND Gilbert's tests. See:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua- - -analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
I think you misunderstand me. I completely share your opinion on the effect that his testing got. If nothing else, he put the issue out, front-and-center. Again, there is no disagreement coming from me here.
What I attempted to say was that the actual mechanics and engineering of his tests really didn't go anywhere. In other words, no one took his results and built a substantial case for electronic failure probability within the system.
And, in a way, I would be willing to bet that he might do the whole thing a bit differently today if he had foreseen how his tests results were mis-used, mis-applied and mis-construed by the media, critics and proponents of UA.
A lot of folks got a lot of free "press" coverage at his professional expense.
Bet he still is checking if tin whiskers or another cause could cause the double fault.
I also wonder why the NHTSAA never insisted that all install engine codes for WOT - there were (and are?) questions with Toyota's black box.
But I imagine there would have to be another check in engine codes to show it wasn't an intentional WOT i.e. passing a speeding empty dump truck. (I despise those drivers).
What good is an after-the-fact analysis of "why" the throttle went WOT..?
That doesn't get your broken limbs healed nor does it allow you to arise for the grave.