To be honest, I didn't have a chance to test drive the Ody before I bought my T&C Ltd and I didn't want to buy or wait for a car that I can't even sit in (I would if I am buying a Ferrari or a Lambo). I did have a chance to drive one 3 or 4 months after I bought the T&C. Over all the Ody was ok (maybe I am used to my T&C). Anyway, if a Ody was avaliable back then it would be a tough decision. It might not sound right but I do buy cars based on their styling more than any other things (safety included). Hopefully, Honda or Toyota will make some better looking vans in the future.
Most of the people that I know base their car buying decisions by first determining the style of vehicle that they want and then the rest is determined either by looks, price, or reputation. Unlike many of the readers here, most of these people are not very informed on vehicle specs, safety, reliability (other than if somebody told them one brand was good or lousy), or trade-in values. Even many on this board who are fairly informed tend to take things like crash tests ratings at face value without looking at the stats behind them. For them 5 stars is 25% better than 4 stars when in reality it could be as little as 1-2% difference in some specific measurements. The public is getting more informed about car buying but the fact is that the type of people that read these boards are a small minority of the buying public.
I would hate to get into a big fight with your or say something that might offend you because I doubt you would ever live it down. You and alot of people have been "burned" by Chrysler in the past. I repeat, in the past. Did I say in the past? Fifteen years from now you can continue to use your past experience with a company which has obviously improved its quality as a way not to buy their product. But that's your loss.
And yes, I do quote Edmunds when they share my opinion and then disagree when they don't. What would you expect? Many of the complaints they have of Chrysler minivans are totally ridiculous, and even false. They slam the Town & Country Limited for being too expensive when it has more luxury and convienence features than any other van compared. At the time, the Odyssey didn't even offer a leather interior when the T&C is covered in it. And then in their "spin around town" of a 2001 Grand Caravan EX they go on and on about how their vehicle didn't come with a left side power door. When in fact, most Grand Caravan EX models ship from the factory with dual power sliding doors as an option, which Edmunds failed to mention.
I'll curse the day when the boxy, bland, boring Honda Odyssey outsells Chrysler minivans. It will really be horrible. I don't think I could stand seeing the road covered with cookie cutter Odysseys in that dull, lifeless gray color. At least with Chrysler you can choose from about 12 different models and two wheelbase sizes which all look slightly different. If Honda matched Chryslers production, they might be able to outsell them. But I would hardly look to a survey done by Edmunds to determine that.
4aodge says: the Odyssey didn't even offer a leather interior when the T&C is covered in it. There you go exaggerating again. For your information your DC van and EVERY other one as far as I know are just the seating surface is in leather. That means from your shoulders down to your hinny is leather, the sides and back of the seats, headrests, door panels and 3rd seat are vinyl. Even on the great Odyssey is this a fact. Now on my 01 I got aftermarket leather from Classic Soft Trim and ALL the seats including the 3rd are in leather, including the door panels. This also included hi/lo heated seats. All for $1600 which isn't anymore than the factories charge.
So how much does aftermarket leather add to an 01 Odyssey's resale? Nothing, it isn't in any major pricing book, and so a dealer will never give you credit for it. On an 01 Dodge van leather adds between $627-$827 to resale, and costs between $783 and $1250 to add to a new van. That's a little better then $1600 to install and get no credit for later. This is a reason why sometimes vans originally sold in Canada can be a good deal. My brother has a 96 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE that is really loaded. The books don't show any such thing as a Voyager LE in 96 only the Dodge. It also has the 3.8 which supposedly wasn't available on the Voyager that year. So the best they could show for a book value was a loaded Voyager SE which gave him a bunch of stuff like the 3.8, infinity sound, power seats, etc. for free. Now he will face the same problem if he trys to sell but as the van ages options end up worth very little.
My problem with this whole thread is that I feel most fans of the Chrysler fans can see that both vans are a good van that you really wouldn't go wrong either way in buying. The only reason I ever started engaging in these discussions was way back in late 2000 when all the Honda owners were really "trolling" the Chrysler forums spewing hate and discontent. It seems many of the Honda fans just will not admit that the Honda has not lived up to initial quality expectations, and that the Chrysler van is a great van as well, especially now that it has been re designed. I would have no problem if my motor bought an Odyssey, I'd think she got a good van, as long as she checked out all options and made her decision based on facts then it obviously would be the best van for her. It seems that that kind of attitude is rarely turned the other way by the Honda crowd. You should have seen these boards back when hardly anybody actually owned the new Honda, they were just 59th on the list or something. They were just absolutely certain of their choice even though many had never even seen one in person, let alone drove one! Now I feel many of those same people, even if faced with a horrible sting of problems, would never admit they were a little let down by their decision. At the time they could only compare it to a Chrysler van that was a 5 year old design, now that there is a redesign on the Chrysler a bunch of them have got to be questioning their decision, they will never admit it, but they have got to be.
I disagree on the 01's with aftermarket not getting anything extra for the leather. I have purchased many many cars/trucks/RV's (at least 50)and has always got extra for those add ons. If that was the case then those stripped down vans that they use for conversions would only bring what the orginal stipped down van cost. I just sold a GEO Tracker a while back that I added a hardtop to, and they gave me $800 over book as they said it cost them about 1200 to put one on the new Trackers.
hersbird, I totally agree that both vans are great in their own respects. And I too first engaged in these discussions after seeing how many Honda Odyssey owners here trashed DC vans and made them seem like worthless pieces of garbage But I also realize the Honda Odyssey is far from perfect in the areas of reliability (for a Honda), comfort, and convienence at least when compared to the competition, namely the Town & Country. In fact, if I had to buy a van and Chrysler did not exist, the Odyssey would be the only viable alternative for me.
This is not to say DC minivans are perfect, as I've said many times in the past. They have a troubled reliability and safety history which some might find concerning. Although I have tried to show that they are improving in both of those areas.
dmathews, when I say the Town & Country Limited is covered in leather, I am not exaggerating. Not only does it have leather on the seats, doors, and side panels but it also has suede accents as well. None of which were offered on the 2001 Honda Odyssey and in some cases aren't even offered on the 2002 model. And on a personal note, I would much rather have factory leather installed than your after market leather, which in the case of paying 1600 dollars as you did is more expensive than it would be to get it stock on a Dodge Grand Caravan.
The leather package on the Grand Caravan EX includes heated leather seating, leather wrapped steering wheel, and steering wheel audio controls all for 1,060. And as hersbird has pointed out, your after market leather won't do much to your vans resale value.
Amen! At least all I have to worry about is the little bit I may or may not lose on my aftermarket leather when the DC people have to worry about all the big bucks they lose on their van, or they have to drive it into the ground since they won't get much out of it at trade. Then again running it into the ground will come a whole lot sooner than in an Odyssey. Hey, maybe thats why DC sells so many vans, everybody has to buy two to last as long as one Odyssey.
MSRP of a Town & Country Limited - $36,850 Residual after 36 months - 42% - $15,445 Money lost from MSRP after 36 mo. - $21,330
MSRP of a Honda Odyssey EX-L - $28,710 Residual after 36 months - 56 % - $16,078 Money lost from MSRP after 36 mo. - $12,632
Clearly from MSRP, the Odyssey beats the Chrysler, almost by $10,000!
But wait a second, people don't buy Town & Country Limiteds for sticker price. They can buy them for $30,600 like in all the news paper ads I see. Hmmmmm, lets recaluclate this...
Haggled price of T&C LTD - $30,600 Residual after 36 mo. - 50% - $15,445 Money lost after 36 mo. - $15,115
Real comparisons shows the Odyssey still beats the Chrysler by $2,813 in the residual department and about $500 in the price you can buy it department. Does that make the T&C an awful value, though? No, because it does also come with features that aren't available on the Odyssey.
Does the Odyssey have great reasle? You bet, and from MSRP! But is the T&C THAT awful? No, from a haggled price, it's okay; not great, but not the $20,000 people make it seem like you lose.
Never owned a Dodge/Chrysler though I have driven quite a few (rentals, fleet cars, test drives, etc.) Would I ever buy one? Sure, if I was in the market for a Viper or a 68 GTX or Road Runner (make mine a Hemi please!). Of the DCs I've driven the 80's and early to mid 90s were &*@% boxes. They have since make great strides in quality but IMO still fall short of Honda and Toyota in terms of reliability. Time will tell with the newer models. As for DC bashing before Honda Odysseys were even popular, I speculate that the people doing the bashing have had their tastes soured on U.S built autos, in which case it will take a lot for them to come around again. Honda and Toyota Corp. make approximately $3,000 on average, for every vehicle they sell. That's an average and it certainly doesn't always hold. It is also profit for the corporation, not the dealers. DC and other U.S. auto makers (I'll call DC a U.S. auto maker for now I guess) in some cases make zero profit on their vehicles. That's due to all of the customer incentives they need to pay out in order to make themselves competitive in the eyes of the consumer. How long do you think that can last? I sincerely hope that somewhere along the way, the U.S. auto makers figure it out. If they don't we'll have a lot more to worry about than who makes the best minivan!
dmathews, you can't be serious here! I see many DC vans on the road that are 10+ years old & have YET to see a 20 year old Odyssey! :-) Seriously though, even though DC's reliability in the past has been less than stellar, any assumptions on the Oddysey's long term reliability is purely based on speculation and on Honda's reputation. The Odyssey is already showing that it is not up to Honda's record of quality, who knows what the future holds?
You want to talk about lowering the bar? Honda certainly did just that with the Odyssey. Take a nice long visit to "Honda Odyssey Problems." The posts on that message board speak for themselves.
Before you throw any stones, please step out of your glass house. Look at the DC boards. Gee, even a separate group on the great wonderful lemon of a transmission. Or the many other DC van boards that get plenty of complaints. But then again DC has the board so low an ant couldn't crawl under it.
Plenty of complaints? The Chrysler problems and transmission boards haven't received posts in a number of days. Even then, most of the problems being discussed are how much is paying too much for a DC minivan. Hardly what I would call serious problems. Meanwhile, Odyssey owners are dealing with chronic alignment problems, transmission failures in 99 through 01 models, rattles, squeaks, and malfunctioning power sliding doors.
And that great wonderful lemon of a transmission out performed the Odyssey's in the last comparison test. Can anyone say downshift? I know Edmunds, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend can.
Anyone else like to play in here? I think we're all pretty clear on where 4aodge and dmathews3 stand. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I actually think there is proportionally more traffic from Odyssey people due to the amount of time they spend researching, Honda reputation, and D/C owners are just used to problems and don't complain as much.
I'll take a slightly rougher shift over a transmission from a company that has such a bad history of early failures. Don't forget that D/C never got serious about making the transmission better until they had compition from Honda and Toyota. How many years of bad trannies is that? It took Honda just two years to change their transmission. You would hope that after nearly 20 years of making mini-vans D/C's trannies would at least be smooth since their reliabity is still questionable.
Five years from now odd1 and dmathews3 will still be telling us not to forget about Chryslers past reliability problems, most of which in five years will have been resolved for almost a decade. Don't forget, don't forget, don't forget, right? Let's bash Chrysler because of problems they had five years ago, but have since been resolved. That makes alot of sense. It seems to me you guys are just searching for more reasons why you think you shouldn't buy a DC van rather than making sense and being reasonable. I think some doctors might even call it denial.
Face it, playing the reliability card with Chrysler is getting very old, very quickly. Chrysler isn't the same company it was five or ten years ago, and neither is Honda. In fact, from a quality standpoint, Honda is probably worse now than it was ten years ago.
-Adam (17/M/CA)
dmathews3, is your screen name here at Edmunds an abbreviation of your name or are you a fan of the Dave Matthews Band? In that case, at least we have something in common.
who? Seriously, I could change the spelling if he would give me a few bucks. Than I could buy something for more $$$$$$ and bash Honda and DC. As far as bashing DC 5 years from now, don't worry I will have something beside the Honda. If we're still in the need of a mini van and DC is as relieable as you seem to think, I would give them another chance and buy one. But I'm not ready to admit they have improved yet. Maybe over the short term but lets see if it holds up for 5 years. You had better print a copy of this post cause I doubt you will ever see me say this again for a long while. :-)
I now have 65k om my 98 GCS, aside from the battery which was replaced by the dealer in 98 I have not had one problem, it still drives like new. I purchased mine after driving my managers van. He has leased 3 of them with no problems Even C.R. which goes out of its way to find faults with domestic vehicls has recommended DC vans for the past 4 or 5 years.
If D/C can go 10 years without the problems of the past and match Honda and Toyota safety. I will consider them again and that is with being burn twice by D/C.
I seriously doubt Honda will let their quality slip in the years to come. Sure, the 99-01 Odyssey has had some problems - what new model hasn't. But Honda seems to have taken every effort to resolve some of the earlier glitches (new 5 speed tranny, higher H.P. V-tec engine, etc.) Not bad, considering they've been making this particular minivan for all of 4 years now. Even if they are only on par with DC, they've done an admirable job considering DC has had almost 20 years to get their van to where it's competitive with another entrants 4 year old model.
A co-worker of mine is in the market for a Pilot or MDX. He has a 98 Dodge Durango with 68K miles. He has already spent by his estimate, over $3,000 in repirs now that his SUV is out of warranty, (new serp. belt tensioner, ball joints, oil leaks, tranny problems - you name it). It might just boil down to too little too late for DC.
Honda and DC should pay you guys for defending their products. I didn't even let my dealer install their license plate frame on my car.
bdaddy, if your friend really want a Honda please ask him to buy an Ody instead of the Pilot or MDX, those SUVs are the worst looking (especially the Pilot) in the market.
TomTom, I'm not defending any product - just trying to balance out the bias on this board. This is especially true in some folks who base their opinions on what they read and what from that, they chose to agree with.
As far as the SUV debate, I'll stay out of that one. I like the looks of the Pilot and MDX. They're a lot better looking than the dated look of the Cherokee and Liberty:-) Besides, the guy is single and I'm sure he finds all minivans somewhat demasculating.
Like many other Chrysler products, I think the Jeep Grand Cherokee is one of the best looking SUVs on the market. It hasn't been redesigned since 1999 and I hope they don't plan on updating the exterior any time soon. Once again, Honda comes out with another supposedly safe and reliable yet painfully boring and dull vehicle in the case with both the Pilot and the MDX. I'd much rather have a better looking, more luxurious, more powerful Jeep Grand Cherokee (also more capable off road) than either the Pilot or the MDX. What a surprise, huh?
As for single people not being seen in a minivan, whatever. I feel secure enough about myself to not be concerned with what other stupid people think of me because of the car I drive. Besides, it's good to break stereotypes every now and then. Although I didn't choose to buy a minivan, if someone offered me any car in the world for free, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least consider a Inferno Red 2002 Grand Caravan ES. Minivans are some of the most practical cars on the road, not to mention the safest and most environmentally friendly, at least for their size.
Most importantly, can you take seven friends to a concert or other function in a cramped MDX? I don't think so.
Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are not the same. Cherokee (IMO) really look outdated and I believe (not sure) the Liberty is the replacement of Cherokee. I do agree with you about the flexibility of having a minivan. That's why I bought a T&C LTD but I still prefer to drive my coupe.
Just to stay in the subject...I think DC vans are better looking than Ody, MDX and especially, the Pilot.
if someone offered me any car in the world for free, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least consider a Inferno Red 2002 Grand Caravan ES They didn't use you for that commercial of the kid driving his girlfriends Dads Viper, did they?
Well the Liberty did replace the Cherokee this year but not sure why you would feel the look is "dated". I guess the look of the PT Cruiser is a bit "dated" as well. Some people call that "retro" though... The Liberty is a good deal for the price though new, but I wouldn't buy one. For that much ($22,000) you can get a really nice used Grand Cherokee that is much nicer. Give it 4 years and they may be worth buying for $12,000. I've never seen a Pilot, is it the Honda version of the MDX? That would be good for those who really don't want the true off road capability of a Jeep. Personally in this one area I think Toyota is superior to Honda. The Rav-4 seems much better then the CRV, and Land Cruiser crushes the MDX, the Highlander seems nice as well, is that what the Pilot will compete with? In every car line I'd take a Honda over a Toyota any day but Toyota just is better at little trucks.
I'll be the first to admit I'd rather have an Acura MDX vs. a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I'm probably going to the Acura after my Chrysler lease is up based solely on the fact that
A. It's a Honda B. It's safe C. It's a change after 15 years of minivans D. Offers fold away 7 passenger seating when needed E. It drives very much like a car
Look, I've always defended my Chrysler vans because they've been luxurious and reliable for me, but it's time for a vehicle that I know doesn't have a 7 year built in obsolescence and a car that is extremely safe. The fact that I'm ready for a change doesn't hurt either.
The Acura is all that, plus it has the navigation system I've always wanted, and I'm sorry, if I wanted to go to the mountains, I might buy a Jeep, but here in Illinois, the only place the MDX will be going is the mall and 2-94 expressway. I'll gladly give up the "Jeep toughness" for a smooth riding AWD capable SUV that could get me through a little snow and slick weather.
But till then, I'm still loving my 2001 T&C LTD, and let me tell you, if Honda could dress up the Odyssey a little more in the luxury department or come out with an Acura version of their minivan, I would have said bye bye to Chrysler a long time ago.
I just got back from a trip to the store today in my 02 Odyssey and have to write about my experience.
My dad once said, "you don't look for trouble, trouble seems to find you." Leaving the store lot I was pulling on to a very busy 4 lane road with a center turn lane. After waiting quite a while for traffic to clear I pulled into the center turn lane to wait for oncoming traffic before pulling into my left turn lane. The van that approached me must have thought I was going to pull right out into them. I proceeded to get flipped off by two young guys driving their dad's Dodge Grand Caravan EX. After I made my turn I came up next to them at a stop light. They proceeded to laugh at me and flip me off some more. They started inching up as the light was ready to change to amber. I also inched up my van to the crosswalk. As the light changed to amber I made sure TC was off and turned off the air. I checked the intersection both ways. On the green, I floored it, unleashing 240 V-tec horses. The tires let loose and the V-tec revved while the 5 speed tranny took over the shifting. I continued on this way for 7.9 seconds or so reaching 60 mph. The kids in the Dodge unleashed their 3.8 liter "torquey" Mopar powerplant, only they were nowhere to be seen, even during the crucial 0-30 burst. I started coasting because there is a hill a mile or so down the road where the cops like to take pictures.
The kids in the Dodge flew past me a few seconds after I got off the gas, smug in the fact that they thought they had blown away my "rice burner". I caught up with them a mile or so down the road. A cruiser was pulling them over for what I imagine was exceeding the speed limit. The look on their faces said it all.
I should know better, but I kept seeing Adam and the torquey Mopar with the 3.8.
Love Magic Seat, space in 2001 Odyssey EX. Easy haul large items. Now worry many Odyssey owner report many problems. bdaddy: Odyssey 240 HP not at start until 5500 RPM. High rev engine 1st gear transmission not last. Want race buy Honda S2000.
What an exciting trip to the grocery store that was for you! I wish mine were just as exhilarating. I hope your too quick to downshift 5-speed transmission and high reving 240 horse Vtec engine didn't blow up racing to whatever outrageously high RPM it took to "smoke" the Grand Caravan EX.
We've been through this a thousand times. Your Vtec engine may be faster, more efficient, and smoother than my pushrod Chrysler V6, but they both have situations where they are better than the other. The 3.3L V6 engine in my Town & Country barely works compared to your high reving Vtec engine. I only have to rev to 2k RPM when accelerating from a stop to keep up with traffic. How high does your Vtec engine rev to?
Wood grain dash kit for Honda Odyssey? Oh common. Who are you trying to fool? We all know the Odyssey is as far from a luxury vehicle as you can get. Do you also have the Honda Odyssey logo on the back of your van in gold? If you want a true luxury van, buy a Chrysler. I like to see the envious look on the faces of Odyssey owners when I roll past them in the Town & Country with the polished champagne paint contrasted with the sparkling 16 inch chrome rims shinning in the sun. Now that's a truly "priceless" look.
Unless you are in a jag or rolls or the like IMHO.
Adam you comparison of engines is apple to oranges. These are different technologies designed to work in different ways. The engine isn't "working harder" it is working the way is is designed to work. I'm sure you don't try to get on the Porsche board and tell Porsche owners that it is an inferior engine because it runs well at high RPMs and only has four cylinders.
Come these are mini vans not luxury vehicles. I'd take you for a ride in my Bimmer if you want to know what a luxury vehicle is like.
The MDX and Pilot were never designed for serious off road use. Anyone who buys one for such use is an idiot. As is anyone who buys a Cherokee who wanting road car handling and ride. What is the percentage of SUVs that are never driven off road? 90 percent? Once again Adam you comparing apples to oranges.
The priceless look I love is; D/C owners faces when I tell them I'm approaching 75,000 miles with only fluid changes and a fresh set of tires.
I'm not trying to fool anyone with a wood grain dash kit. Mine fits nice and is made from real wood. I'm very happy with the look - its subtle and subdued, matching the interior quite nicely. Who is DC trying to fool with chrome rims? If anything, it falls under the "all show, no go" category. I guess it all boils down to preferences. Truth be known, I like the look of the DC vans. I almost bought one but the decision maker in the family wanted the Honda. I'm glad because truthfully, the Honda is a much easier vehicle for me to enter and exit. I'm 6'4" and the damn A pillar in the DC kept banging me in the head whenever I got in or out. It was right next to my temple in the driving position. I felt like I should be wearing a crash helmet if I was ever in an accident with it. I'm glad we made the choice we did. I also like the look of the Odyssey and some of the Winstar trim levels. But as my dad once said, "Son, looks aren't everything."
Incidently, my Honda accelerates nicely under moderate driving conditions. The 5 speed tranny shifts smoothly and I loaf along at 65 mph with the engine doing about 1,800 rpm. I don't live in the mountains, so I can't comment on the "too quick to downshift" opinion you've obtained from reviews of previous models. I have not observed that phenomenon.
You're right, Honda doesn't know how to make a tranny to handle the high revs of their V-tec engine. That's why they've dominated the racing circuits for so long.
I had an Acura Integra that saw redline on a regular basis. 150,000 miles, original clutch and no tranny problems. Good luck with your Nissan minivan - finding one that is.
If I am comparing apples and oranges here than so is every car reviewer when comparing the powertrain of the Town & Country to that of the Honda Odyssey, including Edmunds. Yes your right, Chrysler and Honda utilize two different engine technologies to achieve power in their minivans. That does not meant that they cannot be compared and contrasted. Nor does it mean that a comparison between the two should be dismissed as irrelevant.
ody01, I don't think I understand why you are thinking of getting rid of your 2001 Odyssey. Hasn't it it been a trouble-free mode of transportation for you and your family? Just because others here at Edmunds are having problems with their Honda vans doesn't mean you will. Besides, most of the problems Honda has had with their vans were in the 1999 and 2000 model years.
bdaddy, your dad sounds like a very wise man. The kind I'd like to meet someday. But I don't see how chrome wheels, especially when they don't look cheap, falls under the category of "all show, no go." DC minivans have good performance and look great at the same time, especially the Town & Country Limited with side ribbing and chrome rims. I know the 16 inch chromes on our 2000 Town & Country look very nice and really compliment the champagne paint. But as you said, I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
add some curb feelers and you're all ready for the ghetto.
Yes, they are very different technology that work differently. I was just trying to point out that the higher RPMs isn't "working harder" for this engine. High RPMs on that ancient technology push rod of your parents may be bad but, it is what the Honda engine is designed to do. If it is so hard on the engine why do so many Hondas and Acuras go well over 200,000 miles? Why is this engine a top choice of street racers? And as said before why do Honda engines dominate formula racing if they aren't able to run at high RPMs?
Maybe you need to stick to facts like the T&C has chrome wheels, average crash test results WITH airbags, that it has 25% less horsepower than Odyssey, and get lower gas mileage and resale. Since you've tried recently to say the 3.3 has more torque and that higher RPMs are bad for the Vtec engine.
In less you've been in a 2002 EX-L and a 2002 T & C You should possibly stop saying that the interior is vastly better in the T&C. I spent time in both at the auto show last month and there isn't a lot of difference.
It is really amazing how this topic has changed from a comparison of the features and capabilities of these two vans to some sort of macho man-check. The Honda people want to limit the discussion to strictly the 240hp 2002 van while beating the reliability issue of 15 year old DC vans. The DC people attack the issue of Honda styling looking like a box and the fact that Odyssey reliability has not exactly been up to par with the Accord and Civic.
Let's face it, these are actually both really good vans. The Odyssey is typical Honda. They wait for the market to decide what it wants in a vehicle and then offer a package with the most desirable features. They spend their money on engine design and get by with very conservative styling. This has been true with generally late market entries of the CRV, Odyssey, and Pilot. That is why Honda usually scores very well on the first try. They waited 15 years to decide to enter the minivan market so they had a lot of history to study.
DC tends to go for more aggressive styling while saving money by refining existing drivetrain technology. It is a long standing American car concept of trying to offer more features to keep sales up while simultaneously trying to increase quality to where it should have been in the first place.
As I have said before, the only fair comparison is to take vehicles of equal price and compare features and performance, or take vehicles of equal features and performance and compare price. Edmunds did neither in their comparison.
Yes, I am a DC owner but I am willing to admit that the Honda is an excellent vehicle. I did not buy it because I was looking for a used vehicle and the Odyssey is not a good value used. Also, the Magic Seat does nothing for me at this time as I will always have child seats in the rear for the next few years and would not be able to fold it down.
Sorry for the long post. Pick the one that fits your needs and budget best and enjoy it. If you are worried about your manhood buy a sports car.
Ok, let's back up a bit here. Alot of what I said about not liking how Honda Vtec engines have to rev to ridiculous RPMs just to get peak power comes from my personal preference. I don't like having to rev to 3.5k+ RPMs just to keep up with traffic, which I don't have to do with our pushrod 3.3 V6. I'm sorry that I did not take into account in my posts how Honda engines are made for high reving.
I never said the 3.3 V6 has more torque than the Odyssey but I'm pretty sure it would feel like it. The 3.3 delivers its 203lbs of torque at a very low RPM of about 3k, which is really nice for large minivans. I've never seen a pre 2002 Odyssey get off the line with such power as my Town & Country. Although after about 3k RPMs the power in the 3.3 begins to fade, which I'm sure would not be the case in the Odyssey. However, the 3.8 V6 does have more torque than the Odyssey 3.5 and delivers it at a lower RPM, even though it only has 3 more lbs.
Also, let's not forget that the "ancient" pushrod technology used in the Chrysler 3.8 was rated higher by Edmunds than was the high-tec, advanced, wonderful 3.5 V6 found in the 2001 Odyssey. It was smoother and quieter than the Honda 3.5 V6. Also, the Chrysler engines are reliable and proven, especially the 3.3 V6. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
Although I've only sat inside a 2001 Honda Odyssey with aftermarket leather at a local dealership, I have driven a 2001 Town & Country Limited with the 3.8 engine. It would be a lie and an insult to Chrysler to say the interior of Odyssey is even similar to that of the Town & Country. Even my friend who is a die-hard Honda fan and owns a 2001 Accord Coupe EX thinks the Town & Country interior is more plush and luxurious than the spartan Odyssey, not to mention more attractive. When you sit in the Odyssey you feel like your sitting in a Honda. Period. When you sit inside a Town & Country LXi or Limited you feel like your ridding in the lap of luxury.
When was the last time anyone called the Honda Odyssey a luxury vehicle?
Of course Chrysler was using that "high tech" OHV type motor a long time ago on their minivans. Remember the 3.0 v-6 that was the mainstay for so many years of Chrysler vans. I had that motor in 3 or the 4 Grand Caravans I've owned but would take the 3.8 over it anyday. The pushrod design is just more reliable. All OHV motors will ultimately have problems with the valve guides, and also warpage on the aluminum heads. Our highest mileage caravan did do well, but I feel if it had the optional 3.3 pushrod motor it would have been in better shape at 145,000 (with only fluid changes and tires no less). Yeh there are lots of Accords out there with 150,000 miles on a OHV motor, but there are lots of them out there smoking as well. It's just not as common with iron headed, push rod motors. Both designs are actually about equally old so I really don't consider one "high tech" and the other "outdated". Besides winston Cup cars make 850 HP with those old pushrods on a 5.7L motor with no power adders. They can ONLY spin to 10,000 rpm doing it though...
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And yes, I do quote Edmunds when they share my opinion and then disagree when they don't. What would you expect? Many of the complaints they have of Chrysler minivans are totally ridiculous, and even false. They slam the Town & Country Limited for being too expensive when it has more luxury and convienence features than any other van compared. At the time, the Odyssey didn't even offer a leather interior when the T&C is covered in it. And then in their "spin around town" of a 2001 Grand Caravan EX they go on and on about how their vehicle didn't come with a left side power door. When in fact, most Grand Caravan EX models ship from the factory with dual power sliding doors as an option, which Edmunds failed to mention.
I'll curse the day when the boxy, bland, boring Honda Odyssey outsells Chrysler minivans. It will really be horrible. I don't think I could stand seeing the road covered with cookie cutter Odysseys in that dull, lifeless gray color. At least with Chrysler you can choose from about 12 different models and two wheelbase sizes which all look slightly different. If Honda matched Chryslers production, they might be able to outsell them. But I would hardly look to a survey done by Edmunds to determine that.
My problem with this whole thread is that I feel most fans of the Chrysler fans can see that both vans are a good van that you really wouldn't go wrong either way in buying. The only reason I ever started engaging in these discussions was way back in late 2000 when all the Honda owners were really "trolling" the Chrysler forums spewing hate and discontent. It seems many of the Honda fans just will not admit that the Honda has not lived up to initial quality expectations, and that the Chrysler van is a great van as well, especially now that it has been re designed. I would have no problem if my motor bought an Odyssey, I'd think she got a good van, as long as she checked out all options and made her decision based on facts then it obviously would be the best van for her. It seems that that kind of attitude is rarely turned the other way by the Honda crowd. You should have seen these boards back when hardly anybody actually owned the new Honda, they were just 59th on the list or something. They were just absolutely certain of their choice even though many had never even seen one in person, let alone drove one! Now I feel many of those same people, even if faced with a horrible sting of problems, would never admit they were a little let down by their decision. At the time they could only compare it to a Chrysler van that was a 5 year old design, now that there is a redesign on the Chrysler a bunch of them have got to be questioning their decision, they will never admit it, but they have got to be.
This is not to say DC minivans are perfect, as I've said many times in the past. They have a troubled reliability and safety history which some might find concerning. Although I have tried to show that they are improving in both of those areas.
dmathews, when I say the Town & Country Limited is covered in leather, I am not exaggerating. Not only does it have leather on the seats, doors, and side panels but it also has suede accents as well. None of which were offered on the 2001 Honda Odyssey and in some cases aren't even offered on the 2002 model. And on a personal note, I would much rather have factory leather installed than your after market leather, which in the case of paying 1600 dollars as you did is more expensive than it would be to get it stock on a Dodge Grand Caravan.
The leather package on the Grand Caravan EX includes heated leather seating, leather wrapped steering wheel, and steering wheel audio controls all for 1,060. And as hersbird has pointed out, your after market leather won't do much to your vans resale value.
-Adam (17/M/CA)
Residual after 36 months - 42% - $15,445
Money lost from MSRP after 36 mo. - $21,330
MSRP of a Honda Odyssey EX-L - $28,710
Residual after 36 months - 56 % - $16,078
Money lost from MSRP after 36 mo. - $12,632
Clearly from MSRP, the Odyssey beats the Chrysler, almost by $10,000!
But wait a second, people don't buy Town & Country Limiteds for sticker price. They can buy them for $30,600 like in all the news paper ads I see. Hmmmmm, lets recaluclate this...
Haggled price of T&C LTD - $30,600
Residual after 36 mo. - 50% - $15,445
Money lost after 36 mo. - $15,115
Real comparisons shows the Odyssey still beats the Chrysler by $2,813 in the residual department and about $500 in the price you can buy it department. Does that make the T&C an awful value, though? No, because it does also come with features that aren't available on the Odyssey.
Does the Odyssey have great reasle? You bet, and from MSRP! But is the T&C THAT awful? No, from a haggled price, it's okay; not great, but not the $20,000 people make it seem like you lose.
And that great wonderful lemon of a transmission out performed the Odyssey's in the last comparison test. Can anyone say downshift? I know Edmunds, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend can.
Anyone else like to play in here? I think we're all pretty clear on where 4aodge and dmathews3 stand.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Face it, playing the reliability card with Chrysler is getting very old, very quickly. Chrysler isn't the same company it was five or ten years ago, and neither is Honda. In fact, from a quality standpoint, Honda is probably worse now than it was ten years ago.
-Adam (17/M/CA)
dmathews3, is your screen name here at Edmunds an abbreviation of your name or are you a fan of the Dave Matthews Band? In that case, at least we have something in common.
have not had one problem, it still drives like new. I purchased mine after driving my managers van. He has leased 3 of them with no problems
Even C.R. which goes out of its way to find faults with domestic vehicls has recommended DC vans for the past 4 or 5 years.
A co-worker of mine is in the market for a Pilot or MDX. He has a 98 Dodge Durango with 68K miles. He has already spent by his estimate, over $3,000 in repirs now that his SUV is out of warranty, (new serp. belt tensioner, ball joints, oil leaks, tranny problems - you name it). It might just boil down to too little too late for DC.
bdaddy, if your friend really want a Honda please ask him to buy an Ody instead of the Pilot or MDX, those SUVs are the worst looking (especially the Pilot) in the market.
I'm not defending any product - just trying to balance out the bias on this board. This is especially true in some folks who base their opinions on what they read and what from that, they chose to agree with.
As far as the SUV debate, I'll stay out of that one. I like the looks of the Pilot and MDX. They're a lot better looking than the dated look of the Cherokee and Liberty:-) Besides, the guy is single and I'm sure he finds all minivans somewhat demasculating.
As for single people not being seen in a minivan, whatever. I feel secure enough about myself to not be concerned with what other stupid people think of me because of the car I drive. Besides, it's good to break stereotypes every now and then. Although I didn't choose to buy a minivan, if someone offered me any car in the world for free, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least consider a Inferno Red 2002 Grand Caravan ES. Minivans are some of the most practical cars on the road, not to mention the safest and most environmentally friendly, at least for their size.
Most importantly, can you take seven friends to a concert or other function in a cramped MDX? I don't think so.
-Adam
Just to stay in the subject...I think DC vans are better looking than Ody, MDX and especially, the Pilot.
They didn't use you for that commercial of the kid driving his girlfriends Dads Viper, did they?
A. It's a Honda
B. It's safe
C. It's a change after 15 years of minivans
D. Offers fold away 7 passenger seating when needed
E. It drives very much like a car
Look, I've always defended my Chrysler vans because they've been luxurious and reliable for me, but it's time for a vehicle that I know doesn't have a 7 year built in obsolescence and a car that is extremely safe. The fact that I'm ready for a change doesn't hurt either.
The Acura is all that, plus it has the navigation system I've always wanted, and I'm sorry, if I wanted to go to the mountains, I might buy a Jeep, but here in Illinois, the only place the MDX will be going is the mall and 2-94 expressway. I'll gladly give up the "Jeep toughness" for a smooth riding AWD capable SUV that could get me through a little snow and slick weather.
But till then, I'm still loving my 2001 T&C LTD, and let me tell you, if Honda could dress up the Odyssey a little more in the luxury department or come out with an Acura version of their minivan, I would have said bye bye to Chrysler a long time ago.
My dad once said, "you don't look for trouble, trouble seems to find you." Leaving the store lot I was pulling on to a very busy 4 lane road with a center turn lane. After waiting quite a while for traffic to clear I pulled into the center turn lane to wait for oncoming traffic before pulling into my left turn lane. The van that approached me must have thought I was going to pull right out into them. I proceeded to get flipped off by two young guys driving their dad's Dodge Grand Caravan EX. After I made my turn I came up next to them at a stop light. They proceeded to laugh at me and flip me off some more. They started inching up as the light was ready to change to amber. I also inched up my van to the crosswalk. As the light changed to amber I made sure TC was off and turned off the air. I checked the intersection both ways. On the green, I floored it, unleashing 240 V-tec horses. The tires let loose and the V-tec revved while the 5 speed tranny took over the shifting. I continued on this way for 7.9 seconds or so reaching 60 mph. The kids in the Dodge unleashed their 3.8 liter "torquey" Mopar powerplant, only they were nowhere to be seen, even during the crucial 0-30 burst. I started coasting because there is a hill a mile or so down the road where the cops like to take pictures.
The kids in the Dodge flew past me a few seconds after I got off the gas, smug in the fact that they thought they had blown away my "rice burner". I caught up with them a mile or so down the road. A cruiser was pulling them over for what I imagine was exceeding the speed limit. The look on their faces said it all.
I should know better, but I kept seeing Adam and the torquey Mopar with the 3.8.
MacNeil bug deflector for Honda - $125.00
Wood grain dash trim kit for same - $175.00
The look on the kids faces in the DC who the cops pulled over for speeding, after I smoked their a$$e$ at the stoplight....
Priceless!!!
bdaddy: Odyssey 240 HP not at start until 5500 RPM. High rev engine 1st gear transmission not last. Want race buy Honda S2000.
We've been through this a thousand times. Your Vtec engine may be faster, more efficient, and smoother than my pushrod Chrysler V6, but they both have situations where they are better than the other. The 3.3L V6 engine in my Town & Country barely works compared to your high reving Vtec engine. I only have to rev to 2k RPM when accelerating from a stop to keep up with traffic. How high does your Vtec engine rev to?
Wood grain dash kit for Honda Odyssey? Oh common. Who are you trying to fool? We all know the Odyssey is as far from a luxury vehicle as you can get. Do you also have the Honda Odyssey logo on the back of your van in gold? If you want a true luxury van, buy a Chrysler. I like to see the envious look on the faces of Odyssey owners when I roll past them in the Town & Country with the polished champagne paint contrasted with the sparkling 16 inch chrome rims shinning in the sun. Now that's a truly "priceless" look.
-Adam
Adam you comparison of engines is apple to oranges. These are different technologies designed to work in different ways. The engine isn't "working harder" it is working the way is is designed to work. I'm sure you don't try to get on the Porsche board and tell Porsche owners that it is an inferior engine because it runs well at high RPMs and only has four cylinders.
Come these are mini vans not luxury vehicles. I'd take you for a ride in my Bimmer if you want to know what a luxury vehicle is like.
The MDX and Pilot were never designed for serious off road use. Anyone who buys one for such use is an idiot. As is anyone who buys a Cherokee who wanting road car handling and ride. What is the percentage of SUVs that are never driven off road? 90 percent? Once again Adam you comparing apples to oranges.
The priceless look I love is; D/C owners faces when I tell them I'm approaching 75,000 miles with only fluid changes and a fresh set of tires.
Incidently, my Honda accelerates nicely under moderate driving conditions. The 5 speed tranny shifts smoothly and I loaf along at 65 mph with the engine doing about 1,800 rpm. I don't live in the mountains, so I can't comment on the "too quick to downshift" opinion you've obtained from reviews of previous models. I have not observed that phenomenon.
I had an Acura Integra that saw redline on a regular basis. 150,000 miles, original clutch and no tranny problems. Good luck with your Nissan minivan - finding one that is.
ody01, I don't think I understand why you are thinking of getting rid of your 2001 Odyssey. Hasn't it it been a trouble-free mode of transportation for you and your family? Just because others here at Edmunds are having problems with their Honda vans doesn't mean you will. Besides, most of the problems Honda has had with their vans were in the 1999 and 2000 model years.
bdaddy, your dad sounds like a very wise man. The kind I'd like to meet someday. But I don't see how chrome wheels, especially when they don't look cheap, falls under the category of "all show, no go." DC minivans have good performance and look great at the same time, especially the Town & Country Limited with side ribbing and chrome rims. I know the 16 inch chromes on our 2000 Town & Country look very nice and really compliment the champagne paint. But as you said, I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
-Adam
Yes, they are very different technology that work differently. I was just trying to point out that the higher RPMs isn't "working harder" for this engine. High RPMs on that ancient technology push rod of your parents may be bad but, it is what the Honda engine is designed to do. If it is so hard on the engine why do so many Hondas and Acuras go well over 200,000 miles? Why is this engine a top choice of street racers? And as said before why do Honda engines dominate formula racing if they aren't able to run at high RPMs?
Maybe you need to stick to facts like the T&C has chrome wheels, average crash test results WITH airbags, that it has 25% less horsepower than Odyssey, and get lower gas mileage and resale. Since you've tried recently to say the 3.3 has more torque and that higher RPMs are bad for the Vtec engine.
In less you've been in a 2002 EX-L and a 2002 T & C You should possibly stop saying that the interior is vastly better in the T&C. I spent time in both at the auto show last month and there isn't a lot of difference.
Let's face it, these are actually both really good vans. The Odyssey is typical Honda. They wait for the market to decide what it wants in a vehicle and then offer a package with the most desirable features. They spend their money on engine design and get by with very conservative styling. This has been true with generally late market entries of the CRV, Odyssey, and Pilot. That is why Honda usually scores very well on the first try. They waited 15 years to decide to enter the minivan market so they had a lot of history to study.
DC tends to go for more aggressive styling while saving money by refining existing drivetrain technology. It is a long standing American car concept of trying to offer more features to keep sales up while simultaneously trying to increase quality to where it should have been in the first place.
As I have said before, the only fair comparison is to take vehicles of equal price and compare features and performance, or take vehicles of equal features and performance and compare price. Edmunds did neither in their comparison.
Yes, I am a DC owner but I am willing to admit that the Honda is an excellent vehicle. I did not buy it because I was looking for a used vehicle and the Odyssey is not a good value used. Also, the Magic Seat does nothing for me at this time as I will always have child seats in the rear for the next few years and would not be able to fold it down.
Sorry for the long post. Pick the one that fits your needs and budget best and enjoy it. If you are worried about your manhood buy a sports car.
I never said the 3.3 V6 has more torque than the Odyssey but I'm pretty sure it would feel like it. The 3.3 delivers its 203lbs of torque at a very low RPM of about 3k, which is really nice for large minivans. I've never seen a pre 2002 Odyssey get off the line with such power as my Town & Country. Although after about 3k RPMs the power in the 3.3 begins to fade, which I'm sure would not be the case in the Odyssey. However, the 3.8 V6 does have more torque than the Odyssey 3.5 and delivers it at a lower RPM, even though it only has 3 more lbs.
Also, let's not forget that the "ancient" pushrod technology used in the Chrysler 3.8 was rated higher by Edmunds than was the high-tec, advanced, wonderful 3.5 V6 found in the 2001 Odyssey. It was smoother and quieter than the Honda 3.5 V6. Also, the Chrysler engines are reliable and proven, especially the 3.3 V6. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
Although I've only sat inside a 2001 Honda Odyssey with aftermarket leather at a local dealership, I have driven a 2001 Town & Country Limited with the 3.8 engine. It would be a lie and an insult to Chrysler to say the interior of Odyssey is even similar to that of the Town & Country. Even my friend who is a die-hard Honda fan and owns a 2001 Accord Coupe EX thinks the Town & Country interior is more plush and luxurious than the spartan Odyssey, not to mention more attractive. When you sit in the Odyssey you feel like your sitting in a Honda. Period. When you sit inside a Town & Country LXi or Limited you feel like your ridding in the lap of luxury.
When was the last time anyone called the Honda Odyssey a luxury vehicle?
-Adam