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Comments
In such situations, the liftgate and/or the paint would be damaged unless there is a sensor to detect the presence of a close object..
You also have to touch the tailgate button twice within a couple of seconds to open the tailgate or side doors. Touching the button only once, won't open them. It's another safety feature.
Another thing it does when closing the side doors. After they close, the motor draws the doors tight against the weather strip to keep out any wind noise from coming through.
All doors automatically lock after going about 17 mph.
I don't want everything. I don't need leather, DVD, Navigation, etc. What I needed was a EX with a power tailgate and Honda abandoned me with their arrogant options packaging. Toyota was just as bad. I would've had to step up to a XLE from the LE to get the power liftgate.
So in short, I DID complain to Honda. I picked up a Dodge Grand Caravan SXT. Seems to me the best way to complain was to speak with my wallet.
With your SXT, your wife won't even need to open the tailgate to lift a folded stroller into the back. She can keep the stroller open and wheel it right in the side door and lock the wheels, or just lay it on it's side, if you stowed just one middle seat. She could put her groceries in the back. Stow-N-Go gives a family so many options that they don't have with other vans.
No car manufacturer can please everyone. What is a MAJOR plus to you, is a trivial unnecessary item to most other people. Can you understand that?
Honda tries to keep things simple. Toyota and others have so many option packages it must be nuts trying to balance inventories etc.
It seems (to me) foolish to pick one make over another just because of ONE available option that most people don't care about.
" Snobbery and elitism" have nothing to do with this. Honda treis hard to please the MASSES while keeping prices under control.
And, they miss tha mark sometimes as in your case.
I do hope they read these forums and make mid-course corrections.
It's just not the power tailgate or just Stow-N-Go. Both are MAJOR options to a lot of people if they take the time and realize how they are going to use their van. The overhead computer is another nice option that you get with Chrysler products and you can get them all for thousands less than Honda or Toyota sell them for. (Don't even offer Stow-N-Go.)
My wife is also little, 5'1". She would have an impossible task pulling the tailgate back down on a van with no power to it.
I remember once after owning a truck with power door locks and having to have them fixed, I said I wouldn't buy another one with power locks. So I bought a truck with out them and got a nice center console instead. But later it was a pain in the butt to lock or unlock the other door with that console in the way. I didn't think ahead with that at all.
I think most people buy a van to just carry people and if that's true, most any van is ok. For just carrying people, the Honda and Toyota are great looking and dependable vans. Anyone could be proud to own either one. My wants and needs are different. This is the van that answers all my needs, at a great price.
Chrysler has a BIG advantage over Honda and the rest of the market right now if you have the need for this option. Once you have a taste of this, you won't want to go back.
Honda and the other companies will have to follow or be left behind.
So if the minivan is parked in the garage and the garage door is closed, the power liftgate will open with your command from the remote and the liftgate will hit the closed garage door and then reverse itself. That will happen as there will likely be insufficient space/clearance from the rear of the minivan and the garage door in most home garages.
So to prevent any body/paint damage to the liftgate, it would be wise to line the inside of the garage door section(where the liftgate will hit) with soft rubber.
It has to be remembered, what is of utmost importance to a few people, doesn't mean a twit to the others.
This is a security feature that my family and I had in our previous minivan and our 4 other family vehicles. We always lock our doors wherever we drive, good or undesireable places. Why present an opportunity to be hijacked? Let the other opened cars be the easier prey.
So in addition to Stow & Go that seems to becoming popular, automatic door locking from the base EX models up will be additional popular features/options.
Hopefully Honda is listening.
Once buyers get a taste of the Sto-Go feature, that will be the standard that all minivans will have to meet.
GM was once the "King" of the automotive world and have been slipping for years, what makes Honda special? It can happen and from what I read hear and in other printed material, it's happening to Honda. No big deal, it happens to the best of car companies. It's not the end of the world!
The next generation of "great" vehicle will come from Asia, go China!!!!!!!
Honda can't rest on it's laurels and expect to grow. I think they are well aware of that.
The transmission issue has been beaten to death by whatever writer needs fresh material and in these forums. the actual failure rate is very low and I think most people know this. It has also been addressed to prevent further problems.
That might be a good idea. Although the tailgate closed with a light touch of my hand on my Dodge, it doesn't take to much to scratch the paint on these vans/cars. I really don't have that problem, as the garage has so much stuff in it I can only get one vehicle in the garage. And I guess you know that's going to be the wife's Civic.
I agree, I think in the next few years, all the manufactures will go to Stow-N-Go. It just has so many advantages over either laying the seats flat or taking them out.
You really don't realize it untill you have to load something big or heavy.
Honda may have other features that are an advantage over the DCX vans, but Stow-N-Go is still a good idea anyway unless you are only using the van for people hauling and never will carry anything inside that won't fit with the seats in place.
I've had my minivan for almost a year...and have yet to have the need to remove the second row seats.BUT, I still think it is a good idea. But again, I would not buy
Chrysler just to get the stow-n-go.Was that clear?oh well
Stow-N-Go is a nice feature if you have use for it. Like you, I have never had to remove my Ody's second seat row in the almost one year of use. The disappearing 3rd row is a much more valuable feature for us.
To implement Stow-N-Go in the Ody and other minivans may require a structural redesign change that may be expensive in the current model life span. So if research shows that it is a very popular feature that would increase sales, I am sure that Honda and others will offer it in the next model change.
We have to wait and see.
It took Japan 30+ years to reach the top in quality vehicles for US consumers. South Korea has been at it for 20+years in US and still has not yet reach the level of sophistication, technology and quality that US consumers demand as in the Japanese - they are catching up but still have some ways to go.
China-made vehicles will have a very long way to go(maybe 20+years?) before they become acceptable to the US consumers. Of course like the Yugo, there will always be some buyers who cannot afford or are not willing to pay the price for better, quality cars. China-made cars would serve that market well.
I'm sure many wouldn't buy a Chrysler/Dodge to get that feature. Many others wouldn't even think about the different ways you could use it. They think I'm never going to load building material, or furniture in my van so I would never need it. When I was younger, I wouldn't have thought I would need that feature either. But by the same token, I wouldn't pay thousands of dollars more to buy a Honda just because it looks nicer inside, when it doesn't offer me the features I like, at a decent price. I couldn't imagine my 5'1", 112 lb wife, trying to close the rear hatch of a Honda or Toyota without it being motor driven. I can't see having to pay 6-8 thousand more to buy a Honda or Toyota, just to get a power liftgate just because they won't offer it on the cheaper models.
I don't carry extra junk in my cars such as jumper cables and air compressors and have no use for this. I do carry a AAA card that I think I've used once in the past ten years.
If Honda can figure out a way to have both stow n' go AND comfortable seats they would probably go with this. I have sat in those seats and they are uncomfortable!
I don't carry junk either. But if someone needs my help,(by needing my compressor) I am not going to tell him sorry, I wouldn't dream of putting it in my van. Or tell my grand son, I won't put his wagon in my van and get it dirty.
I have AAA also. But I live out west where a gas station could be 50 miles from where I am. I am not going to wait 2-4 hours in the hot sun and wait for AAA to come and give me a jump, because they are so busy starting others and I am so far away. It only needs to happen to you once out here to get you to carry battery cables and some tools because your battry was to weak to start your van, a hose or belt broke. As my van gets older, I'll be carrying them too.
I have spend over 5 hours in the 2nd row seats in the Sto-Go and didn't find them uncomfortable at all. Again, your milage may vary.
I'll take the versitility of the Chrysler, Honda will need to update to compete in the future.
Now I have read more than several posters complain of the front seats in the Honda, (No one says the Dodge front seats are uncomfortable) and that's where I would be sitting if I owned one. Which set of seats would influence my buying a van more, front or middle?
However, my wife does not like the knee room for front passenger in 2001 Odyssey or any Odyssey prior to the 2005. The 2001 Ody glove box intrudes into the knee space for the front passenger.
I maybe wrong, but reading many of these posts from Honda and Toyota owners, I get the feeling that many are a little snobbish than owners of American vans. As if nothing that American vans have, can be anywhere near as good as what they have and if it's not on their van, it's not worth having. That's just a feeling I have. I wonder how others feel about it? Am I all wet?
I liked the 1999-2001 Ody seats better than the 2002-2004 because they had less curvature in the seat bottom and seat back.....more like a bench seat. However, some people complained there was not enough lateral support to retain a person in the seat while cornering so Honda changed them for the 2002 Ody.
I think we're all wet...maybe some more than others though.We all love and enjoy our vans. Like we do with our kids... we like to brag a bit. Don't appreciate others pointing out the flaws or limitations if not done in a considerate/constructive manner. I've probably rubbed a few of you the wrong way on occasion...but don't mean any harm or bad feelings. A wee little bit of conflict and civil disagreement
makes things a little more interesting.
makes things a little more interesting.
I agree wih that.
It can only get better with Stow-N-Go.
Did you actually try to open the rear manual lift gate on Odyssey? You touch the latch and it opens up. You do not have to lift anything. I will refuse to pay a cent for any heavy motorized solution, and I do not have any problems with my liquidity.
I also do carry mountain bike and unfolded stroller inside, and I can not imagine a usage for folding 2nd row. Enough space as is. If Odyssey had 2nd row seat as uncomfortable as in SnG DC vans I would not touch it.
Is it hard to realize that those are gimmicks? (Just like Lazy Susan for that matter, off it went) You bought into that hook line and sinker, but that is your problem, not Honda's.
There must be some reason for Honda and Toyota and BMW (the only vehicles I do buy so far.) making money, and DC (including its incredible shrinking Mercedes), GM and Ford loosing it. I do not care about domestic/import labels, I have always respected U.S. made cars (I am from across the Atlantic), just about functionality and value.
The Dodge is easy to open without a motor also. It's closing it that is hard for women, especially short women, not opening it.
I also do carry mountain bike and unfolded stroller inside, and I can not imagine a usage for folding 2nd row. Enough space as is. If Odyssey had 2nd row seat as uncomfortable as in SnG DC vans I would not touch it.
Right, you only bought a people mover. Than you have one of the right vans.
Is it hard to realize that those are gimmicks? (Just like Lazy Susan for that matter, off it went) You bought into that hook line and sinker, but that is your problem, not Honda's.
Lazy Susan is a gimmick, Stow-N-Go isn't for people that use their van for more than just taking people from point A, to point B. Some of us are not rich enough to have everything done for us and have to do it ourselves. For people like us, stow-n-go is a life and money saver. It's sometimes hard for those that have, to understand those of us that don't have.
Where people like you wouldn't think twice of putting an air compressor in your van to help out a family member, I would. Where you wouldn't dream of putting a chest, bookcase, 2X4's, plywood or etc. you just bought and put it in your van, I would, rather than pay the store $35.00 to deliver it.
Where you would pass on Stow-N-Go because the middle seats are firmer, I wouldn't give it a second thought. My grand kids mostly sit in the back when I have them and they have never complained of the seats. I have had some friends that have rode in them twice and they didn't find them uncomfortable either. Besides, I am never going to sit in them. My wife and I set up front and those seats are more comfortable than the Honda.
There must be some reason for Honda and Toyota and BMW (the only vehicles I do buy so far.) making money, and DC (including its incredible shrinking Mercedes), GM and Ford loosing it. I do not care about domestic/import labels, I have always respected U.S. made cars (I am from across the Atalantic), just about functionality and value.
(gawd, what did they do to Mercedes recently.. I want to cry, that was my favorite brand) makes me sick
I can see you have always respected American made cars. You just never buy them. Even I can read between the lines.
Sorry, we all don't live up on that mountain. Sometimes we're willing to do stuff for ourselves or others and need our vans to do it.
I do stuff for others too. I'm always willing to help a person in need and my wife an I give large sums of money every year to several worthy causes.
For years, I carried an "emergency box" in my trunk...probably the same junk you have packed in your stow n' go clutter traps.
My box included a lot of items including an air compressor, highway flares, a first aid kit, various tools, duct tape and a lot of other items I can't remember now.
I would pack that heavy box from car to car.
NEVER ONCE did I ever use anything in that box! Never even once!
So, now, with the exception of a small first aid kit, a small flashlight and a blanket, I carry nothing.
And, yeah...I think the lazy susan will, in most cases just become a dirt collector and catch-all too.
Actually, the Chrysler Group made I think over $1 Billion in profit in 2004 and is on track for that again in 2005. It's the Mercedes Auto Group and SMART that is dragging DCX toward the red ink. HArd to believe, but the Chrysler Group is more than pulling its weight.
I'm glad you never needed to use any of your tools you carried around. Glad you never needed to jump your's or another's battery. I have. I have seen plenty of people out here do it. Some carry water and antifreeze in their trunk all the time. Life is a little different than it is when I lived back in Ohio. Summers here can get up to over 120 degrees.Batteries go fairly quickly. Cars can heat up and boil over. We try and prepair for those times. We help each other when things happen.
I guess you have to live it to understand it.
Airdisaster.Com Forums - American Chrysler only thing keeping German Mercedes Afloat
... have been impossible, but now the Chrysler Group is carrying the ball for the proud company ... insult to absurdity, Mercedes-Benz now finds itself behind Chrysler in quality rankings ...www.airdisaster.com/forums/printthread.php?t=71206 - More from this site
Indeed..
BTW, staying on topic: may I crosspost my highly biased summary of a nice Motortrend review.
Comparing a $32, 495 Dodge GC - 205hp engine, same as upper models for Chrysler get. LX and Town and Country gets 180hp.
Even base $23K Odyssey gets 255hp engine and ALL safety features.
Numbers are (DC vs Honda)
0-60: 10.2s vs 8.6s A very noticable 19% difference in performance.
60-0 136ft vs 123ft A car length worth when braking.
45-65 passing - 5.6s vs 4.3s Few seconds less in the opposite lane on your trip
lateral acceleration - 0.69g vs 0.76g - getting into an accident vs avoiding it
traction control - NO vs YES - flying off the road, vs staying on the road..
turning circle 39.4 ft vs 36.7 ft - making a 3 point turn on a busy street vs a U-turn.
tested economy - 18.4mpg vs 19.8mpg - and still Odyssey takes 7.5% less fuel.
I fail to see how you can call this objective numbers in any sort of a negative way for Odyssey comparative performance. And note that the simpler Odysseys will not get worse performance (rather more, as they are lighter) and less safety, unlike DC. Just read the table.
More to read here.
From Yahoo finance: Qtrly Earnings Growth (yoy): -26.70%
Stock at less then book value per share and free cache flow at -5.88B reflects that.
That must be that 97.3B in debt.
For Honda Motors: Qtrly Earnings Growth (yoy): +26.90% (that is PLUS 26 vs MINUS 26), and +4.71B of free cache flow.
Financially - not even a close comparison.
And we should not even touch Toyota.
My reason for a Minivan was camping, homedepot runs, Sam's runs, children and dogs etc..a 1.6 sec 0-60 time, higher G cornering etc...would only matter if I intended to drive like an idiot darting in and out of traffic. I love my Stow N Go seats, 25mpg in real world mpg and quiet ride.
The other number I took into consideration was price. With rebates, financing and a buddy's DCX employee discount, plus factoring in a tow package for the Honda...the price difference was almost $10k. Even factoring in the Honda's resale value, that $10k in the bank for 4 years comes out ahead...a very noticeable difference.
My Minivan is a very useful appliance. I have a another vehicle that is my "toy".
These were the comments concerning the quality of the ride in the Grand Caravan, Odyssey, and Sienna.
I think it is remarkable that the Grand Caravan had the most comfortable ride when it was the least expensive of the 3.
I get C.R. but I don't put a lot of stock on what they say, because I have found them to be bias towards Japanese vehicles almost constantly. To give you just a couple of examples just in their minivan article.
In predicted reliability, they rate the Honda better than average and rate the Saturn as NEW. The Honda is new too, why were they not rated the same as Saturn? They have done that several times with Japanese and American models
In front seat comfort, they rate the Honda as better than average and the Dodge average. You don't read of anyone on these boards complain of front seat comfort on the Dodge. But I have read more than several that have complain of the front seats on the Honda.
Not sure how C.R. and Chrysler rate these two. C.R. says the Dodge only has 60 cu.ft. of cargo volume, compared to 66.5 for Honda. Dodge says with all seats folded, they have 165.6 cu.ft. of cargo capacity
I also noticed it's only been Honda and Toyota owners on this board that complain of the hard, uncomfortable middle seats on the Dodge. Even C.R. never mentioned them being to hard. They rated them average, the same as they rated the third row seats in the Dodge, Toyota and the Honda. They stated the seats gave good thigh support but some adults found the angle uncomfortable. None stated the seats were to hard.No one on this board said anything about the angle except for one that wondered if it would fit a child seat. Using a level, I found the angle only slightly more than the Dodge front seats, which no one complained about.
Then C.R. complains that the arm rests of the Dodge are not height-ajustable. I'm sorry, but I have never owned a car that had height-adjustable arm rests. It didn't say if the Honda, Toyota and Saturn all had them. Only that Dodge didn't.
I really got a kick out of this one. C.R. says with head rest down, the second and third row head restraints do not adequately protect against whiplash. No adult or half grown kid can sit in the second row seats with the head rest down. The way the second row seats are made to stow, head rests down would hit you in the neck or back. They have to be raised.
C.R says the controls are busy and hard to read. I don't find them hard to read at all and heaven knows what they consider BUSY.
They say the Dodge is noiser than the top rated vans.But no Dodge owner on this board complains of noise. As a matter of fact, they talk of how quiet they are. I have read of many Honda owners complain of wind noise in their vans.
C.R. says body motion in the Honda are well controled. Another reviewer says,
"Like the Accord it's based on, the Odyssey gives the feeling that it can be tossed around corners a bit. Taking it up on the offer ruins the illusion, however, mostly because the capsizing feeling that comes with any aggressive turn reminds you of how high you're perched. That, plus too-slow steering, plus the Odyssey's not-so-mini measurements, make mountain runs a nervous affair. It's probably best to be content with the Odyssey's feel in the city, and best to keep it there.
http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/honda/odyssey/reviews/road-test/index.html
Perhaps Honda/Toyota owners simply have sensitive backsides.
"I also noticed it's only been Honda and Toyota owners on this board that complain of the hard, uncomfortable middle seats on the Dodge."
Perhaps Honda/Toyota owners simply have sensitive backsides.