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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
DTKWOK
25/M/CA
Drew, under what conditions do you feel your 165hp 3.8L V6 "runs out of breath"?
The fastest I've ever taken our van was to 85 on the freeway but only for about two minutes. I was worried about cops and possibly getting a ticket, and my parents would not be to happy about that. Anyway, the van seems to be very comfortable at 80mph but as you near 85 it seems to be nearing the end of it's threshhold.
However, I have two friends who have take then their DC minivans slightly over 100mph on several occasions. One of these friends has a 96 Grand Caravan LE and the other has a 98 Grand Caravan SE, both with the 3.3L V6 engine. On optimal conditions I think the 3.3L could pull 110mph, but that might be pushing it.
What do the Ody owners have to say about the 3.5L VTEC engine in their vans? Any performance comments? Problems?
-Adam
00 T&C LX
I also find that the transmission ratios between 3rd and 4th gears also a bit far apart. When driving up to one particularly ski resort, I have to constanty switch between 3rd and 4th. It revs too high in 3rd gear, but starts bogging down in 4th gear. Eventually I just stopped using the van to go up to this ski hill :-) The new vans appear to be improved in this area.
I've taken the van up to 145 km/hr, but only for about 30 seconds and on a flat, smooth, and deserted road. However, at that speed, and in fact above 110-120 km/hr, the front end doesn't feel very stable. Almost as if it's starting to lift. No surprise there. Oh yes, and the wind noise is quite noticable at those speeds ;-). In contrast, the MB SUV that I also drive feels as planted at 145 km/hr on the same stretch of road that it does at 50 km/hr. Since I don't typically drive at such high speeds, I'm not too concerned about this.
DTKWOK, thanks I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure :-)
Drew
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BTW, how does the gas mileage and performance with PT Cruiser compare with the T&C? I would suspect the mileage of PT Cruiser slightly higher with performance of T&C the winner. I would like to see a DC minivan with PT Cruiser styling from the front doors forward (enlarged to the same size as T&C/GC) AND with at least the 3.3L V6.
Based on what evidence?
I babied our tranny in our '94. First, we got the towing package for the extra duty AT cooling, but never towed. Second, we made sure to always come to a complete stop before changing gears (our mechanic strongly urged this). Third, we changed the AT fluid every 15k miles, and yes with the correct fluid (our mechanic specializes in DC minivans and can give lectures on tranny care).
Result? Almost made it to 50k miles. Granted, this was over 7 years of predominantly short, 1 mile or less stop-and-go trips.
Based on incomplete evidence I've heard over the years, your likelihood of having a pre-98 DC minivan tranny fail is affected by the following factors:
* Luck. Some failed in the first year no matter what owners did.
* Driving severity. Lots of long trips on flat, uncrowded highways won't strain the tranny as much as soccer mom trips. When I hear of pre-98 DC minivans going 100k+ miles with the original AT I usually find they were predominantly highway miles. Too bad DC minivans are bought more by soccer moms than traveling salesmen.
* Driving like an adult. Don't strain the AT by, for example, switching from R to D before the minivan has stopped.
* AT maintenance every 15k miles with the correct fluid.
* Keeping tranny cool. Good: heavy duty cooler. Bad: Towing, especially uphill.
Since I live on a mountain, I do drive up and down at least once a day, and my commute is also mostly through city traffic, though I try to time the lights so that I don't have to stop and go as much.
I'm curious if you had the tranny cooler fitted to your '01 Grand Caravan?
Drew
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As I recall you have a '94 GC SE? Did it come with the "O/D off" option? Do you use that up and downhill? According to my '94 manual, using O/D off when on hills will increase the life of the AT.
And, yes, I made sure my '01 had all the HD options. The price was very small given the benefit.
It's actually an almost fully loaded '94 Grand Voyager LE AWD with everything but leather and the towing package, so it does have the O/D off switch, which I use quite frequently up and down hills. I usually shift into 3rd manually when necessary anyway.
BTW, how did you like the digital dash on the '94 T&C?
Drew
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NOT one of the dozens of DC minivans (owned by people I know)has had transmission failure. Read of the many Odyssey transmission failures reported in Edmund's Town Hall. Okay. Do not believe the Odyssey owners who post in the Town Hall. Call it anecdotal or whatever, but for me, the 1999 GC SE represented a far greater value than the Honda Odyssey AND my 1999 GC SE has had ZERO problems in 30,650 miles. How many Honda Odysseys have a better reliability than ZERO problems?
Still, I think it was only available on the '94 and '95 T & Cs, as I recall. And prior to '96, the T & C was produced in very small numbers. And I've heard that problems with it were common, although I never had any.
I wouldn't buy a 2001 model DC van, but I would certainly would want a 2002 AWD van from Chrysler. A Grand Caravan ES AWD with the 3.8L V6 would be really nice. I'd like to see the look on wanna-be-macho SUV owner's faces when they look at my new van and I tell them it has AWD and heavy-duty suspension:)
-Adam
Does this remind any one of we can't duplicate the results of the failed part that the IIHS found TWICE? With, it causing a fuel leak once.
When your van's tranny makes it past 80,000 then you can have something to crow about.
I believe GM/Chevy still makes the AWD Safari/Astro van, that thing has towing capabilities (5500 lbs, I think.)
Don't forget that that number is a lot of customers that won't buy another without improvements in reliability due to the problems they have had in ownership of a DC and the need for safety improvements. I count myself as one.
You seem to forget that if Honda had the manufacturing capabilities to keep up with demand; you would be driving an Odyssey right now. It was your first choice wasn't it?
As for 99 odyssey problems, Honda has addressed its transmission issues within two years. They are not the maker that has spent over a decade blaming driver maintaince for their tranny problems. Chrysler has known about these problems for years but didn't do anything about until they had tough compition. It will be a while until we know if the 99 have a forty percent failure rate that has widely been reported for D/C transmissions for some model years. I personally doubt it. Once, again you are using an extremely small sample, posters on the boards here, to "prove" your beliefs. Give me hard facts and the stats to back them up.
Carlton you continue to attack the Odyssey without ever having an answer to any of the Chrysler issues that anyone brings up. If Chrysler was never able to reproduce the part failure that caused the fuel leak in the IIHS test and they feel it is safe. Then, why did they redesign the part for every vehicle made after they received the results?
Joe Ng '91 Plymouth Voyager (honDUH eater)
Steve
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i doubt people who are on their 3rd, 4th, and even 5th dc minivan are going to jump ship just to get a honda with a dissapearing third row seat. our old 1994 mitsubishi expo had a seat that folded into the floor and we did not miss that feature when we got our 1998 grand caravan se with the roll-out seats. its really too bad a "magic seat" is now the benchmark that determines the worthiness of a minivan.
in fact, dc has not gone 10 years without doing anything about their transmissions. they have upgraded and modified the 41TE transmission as time as moved on and it became more clear that there was a problem. the transmission failure rates have declined over the last few years, which shows improvment. also, dc minivans are not the only chryslers that use the 41TE transmission. many other new chrysler products use this transmission and are flawless when it comes to trany problems.
out of all the 2001 dc minivans that are on the road, some are bound to get into accidents. some of which are very serious, similar to the insurance company's test. have there ever been reports of a crashed dc minivan leaking fuel and exploding? i havent heard of any. chrysler tests their vehicles in a different and more realistic way than the insurance companies do. sorry oddy owners, dc minivans in fact do not blow up spontaneously as you would like to believe.
why did chrysler redesign the fuel part in the 2002 vans? thats a rather simple question. why go through the same media-enduced panic over a part that is called "faulty" a second year in a row? car companies always make their parts stronger and harder to break, chrysler is doing the same. its also interesting this is the same insurance company that seems to have a habbit of giving the most popular cars bad crash tests. a perfect example is the best selling vehicle in america, the ford f-150. ford is probably one of the safest car companies out there in terms of their new car designs. people like to give sales leaders a hard time in order to shift the balance of power.
this "fuel problem" is of no concern to me until i hear of a real accident where fuel was leaking from a dodge caravan or town and country, which has not occured yet and probably never will. until then, im not going to run around calling dc minivans "firebombs" just so i can make myself feel better about buying a honda, as some others are doing in this thread.
-adam
BTW, I'm sure that the driver in Ody figured out you weren't stock and also, the 3.5 is only single head cam, not DOHC.
"They have driven over 150,000 miles. They have needed it to pull their trailor, so I'm sure that put extra stress on the transmission. With your loving care, I'm sure your Caravan will prove dependable as ours. It will cost around $1500. They had it towed to ????(free towing as Chrysler is fixing transmission)."
FYI my sister's 86 Caravan they got USED had 170,000 when they sold it. It is still providing outstanding service for 3rd owners. The T&C with transmission failure was purchased USED.
As with almost all owners of DC minivans, they love it so much they will KEEP it.
Is the transmission the 3 or 4 speed auto? No, I am not challenging your claim, just curious. BTW, how long do you intend to keep yours? If almost all DC owners keep their vans, then how come there is such a huge used market for these things? (By most, it infers greater than 50%, right?) Am I missing something here?
Apparently some members of the Town Hall can not believe that so many people (that I know personally)can have excellent experience with a DC minivan while NONE have had reliability problems. I can understand as I had BAD experiences with 5 Volkswagens....2 purchased NEW and 3 purchased as Used. I also had an ugly experience with the NEW Volvo I purchased and so did a co-worker with a NEW Volvo.
Most people who buy NEW DC minivans keep them for a long time. The ones who get problems usually bought one that had been abused as a fleet, rental, etc. where the driver did not own it. Since DC minivans are THE minivan of choice for Fleet, Rental, etc. there are obvious many of these that are sold when about 1 year old with 30,000 miles.
I would like to rent an Odyssey or Sienna to be able to drive it enough to see how they drive in the real world experience. Do you know where I can rent one?
We have looked very closely at all minivans at the Annual Auto Show each January with special attention to Odyssey, Sienna, and DC minivans. GM FWD appear cheap with less comfortable seats. The Windstar is difficult to access rear seat and seems to have less legroom in 2nd and 3rd rows. The Quest, Villager and MPV seem much smaller. We have not yet seen a new Kia Sedona.
Now that we have driven it 30,710 miles since March 20, 1999 my wife likes our 99 GC SE better than the Odyssey, Sienna or 2001 DC minivans. For her, the Ody glove box intrudes into her legs as a front seat passenger. She does not want to take a chance on getting ANY new minivan and parting with our zero problem 99 GC as there is a remote chance of getting a vehicle with problems with any brand.
I have purchased some excellent vehicles (63 Impala, 67 Impala, 80 Impala, 87 Chevy R-10, 91 Astro CL and now 99 GC SE)and some bad new ones (71 Vega, 71 VW Super Beetle, 72 Volvo and 80 Chevy Citation) plus some bad used ones (65 VW Pickup in Germany,71 VW Bus, 77 VW Bus) and some that were average: 65 Buick Special DeLuxe, 76 Chevy Nova, 78 Impala wagon, 81 Chevy C-10 pickup...all NEW plus a used 50 Chevy sedan and 65 Olds Delta 88.
Summary for all vehicles:
(NEW)
6 Excellent for 32 %
4 Bad for 21%
4 Average for 21%
(Used)
2 Average for 11%
3 Bad for 16%
(Rounding off accounts for the wrong total of 101%)
I have '96 LXI with 97K; just replaced transmission, head and A/C is apparently next. Not particularly pleased with that rapid trio of repairs!
The Odyssey has power at a higher range of PM (slower starts), interior noise, mediocre interior, 2 disc/2 drum brakes. However, it seems to be holding $$ value.
The DC vans have better ride, smoother power, better accommodations, more features; but don't hold $$ value as well.
My choice is now whether I buy a vehicle that is comfortable and more user friendly or a rather plain mini van for economic future reasons.
But the 2001 truly does seem to be more upscale and solid than the 1996. About the resale....well it's crap. There's no getting around it. It's up to you, because the 2002 Odyssey with factory leather and navigation will be around $30,000. Now for that kind of money, you could also get a new 2002 T&C Limited or get a T&C LXi for less than or equal to the $30,000. The MSRP may be $36,000 on a Limited, but I only paid around $30,000 on mine.
So getting a good price on a Chrysler van is not a problem. The resale is more the problem, but I guess that is more up to the individual about whether or not they want to save 4-5 grand in the long run based on resale, but then forgo the luxury they've become accustomed to in a Chrysler.
On the plus side, if you've been truly burned by Chrysler, than the Odyssey may bring you more peace of mind knowing it has a better history than the Chrysler. But again, the 2001 and on Chrysler vans are truly more refined than the 1996-2000 vans.
2002 Honda Odyssey EX main features
- leather interior
- navigation system
- power driver's seat
- digital automatic climate control
- foldaway third seat
- second row buckets/bench
- fold away tray table
- power doors
- homelink garage opener
2002 Town & Country Limited main features
- leather/sued interior
- dual heated power seats
- memory for driver's seat, mirrors, radio presets, and pedals
- triple zone digital automatic climate control
- tip forward buckets to third row
- power/manual doors
- power liftgate
- 4 disc CD changer
- automatic rearview and driver's side mirror
- trip computer
- compass/temperature readout
- homelink garage opener
- power adjustable pedals
- power removable center console
My secret? We let the engine warm up briefly and start the first trip of the day slowly. I do drive fast (5 speeding tickets in 3 years) but I don't stomp on the accelerator unless I have too. We also change oil in both the engine & tranny religiously. We have a great Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealer in our little town in Iowa.
We are starting to look at 2002 Town & Country Ltd.s as our next vehicle, now that the kids are more "mature." Depending on cash flow, we'll probably replace the 96 LE in Dec./Jan. The eldest wants the 96 for college. She claims it'll be a great car pool vehicle for weekend visits from college. If she takes it to college, it may even get to set still for a day or two. We'll see . . .
My family recognizes that Honda makes a good product, but in Iowa we like to buy American, and why would we switch brands when the last two minivans we bought racked up over 250,000 miles? Oh, by the way Honda followers, a disappearing seat does not mean that you have evolved from a higher order of primates, soooo be nice when discussing the relative merits of the minivans.
I drove my sister's 2001 Ody EX that had 3677 miles on odometer today (228.4 on trip meter). It read 3712 (263.3 trip)at the end. Our 99 GC SE read 30809 (trip 226.8) at beginning and 30843 (trip 260.8)at end. Either the Ody gas gauge is way off or our GC gets much better mileage as the Ody fuel gage read 1/3 of way between Empty and 1/2. Our GC gage read 1/3 way between half and Full.....
The Ody odometer registered 34.9 miles while exactly same drive GC registered 34.0 miles. Now for the comparison:
Ody 3.5L has slight edge 65-75 MPH acceleration while GC SE 3.3L has slight edge starting to 30 MPH. Equally quiet. Equally smooth ride. Ody auto climate control worked VERY WELL...our manual control cooled just as efficiently. Ody front fan has about 12 speeds while ours has 5. I could not detect noise from Magic Seat well nor did the stereo sound very badly.
Our GC had more engine noise under acceleration than did Ody. Ody seats more comfortable for me than our GC SE but the 2001 GC SE and Sport and all Voyagers are also better than our 99. I liked horizontal crease in Ody seats as my back felt less sticky than with our seats. Temperature was 97 F when I drove Ody and 101 F when I drove GC.
At MSRP the Ody is the best buy. At actual prices paid it is difficult to choose. Depreciation is moot to us as we keep a very long time or give to a daughter. Reliability is moot also as our 99 GC SE has had zero problems.
Cincy mike-LOL
I didn't mean that they didn't change anything on the transmission for over a decade but, that it took them that long to accomplish any significant reduction in tranny problems.
For the safety of the rest of us. Please tell us when you are on the road since, you clearly feel you own the whole thing.
You are correct in observing the fuel gauge problem. Obviously, there is not that huge a difference in the gas mileage. We have had our Odyssey for 3 weeks now and have noticed the same thing. When the gauge gets all the way on empty, my wife fills up the van and only puts 14-15 gallons in it. It has a 20 gallon tank.
I saw on another board that Honda's official explanation for this is that because of the magic seat, the fuel tank is very shallow, which makes it difficult to accurately measure the fuel level.
Actually, it works out fine for us. I have been trying to condition my wife for years to fill up at 3/4 of a tank, instead of running it to empty. I think it's better for the engine to not be using the gas from the bottom of the tank, where all the dirt accumulates. Anyway, it never took, but now she fills up at 3/4 of a tank anyway, even when she thinks it's on empty.
Click here for the specs.
Drew
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It is those who are on their first or second van that will determine which makes will have the brightest future.
-Adam
You also forget many others including myself have no loyalty to D/C vans due to their many problems and transmission eating habits that we have too much experience with.
It comes down to the old adage about building the better mouse trap. I look forward to great compition in this market trying to get my money.
We got our first pickup(NEW 1981 Chevy C-10 for my drive to work vehicle) and have not purchased a sedan since. Gave it to oldest daughter when we got a new 1987 Chevy R-10. Recently gave 1987 R-10 to youngest daughter. Got a 91 Chevy Astro and gve 80 Impala to our youngest daughter. Traded Astro in on a 99 GC SE. I did NOT like the GC for 8 months or more as I preferred the panel doors of Astro, the larger 27 gal fuel tank, higher seating of Astro.
However, my wife's positive feeling toward the GC was greater than my dislike. As the GC has had zero problems and we have driven it more, I find I like it more and more all the time and now overall I prefer the GC to the Astro. The separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger was not missed until we got it in our 99 GC SE. Overhead console with compass/outside temp/Trip Computer is NOT a necessity but now that we have had it, we would really miss it.
I did not miss power steering until we got it on a 1965 Buick. Nor did we miss air conditioning in a vehicle until we got it in 1969 as an add on to our 67 Impala while living in Oklahoma. For me, the Odyssey seats are more comfortable than the seats in our 99 GC. When the weather is hot, the horizontal creases in Odyssey seats keep my back from getting sweaty better than do the seats of any other vehicle.
A good number of these people will continue to come back again and again to Chrysler if and when they want another minivan. Not all people give up vans as soon as all their kids are in college and people with famlies are not the only ones to buy minivans.
Many long-time DC minivan owners will not be marching over to their local Honda dealerships to buy an Ody just because of a "magic seat" and supposedly good long-term reliability. It's going to take a bit more than that to lure someone away from a vehicle type they have been driving for almost two decades, in some cases.
For example, one of my best friends traded in his 1988 Plymouth Grand Voyager in 1998 for a Town & Country LXi. Their first Voyager gave them a "fair-share" number of problems but their new T&C (61k miles) has not suffered from any major problems. When I asked them if they had thought about buying anything else, she said she had sat in the 99 Windstar and the 99 Ody and replied, "neither could even compare in terms of comfort and design." As I said, it's going to take a little more than a "magic seat" to lure away loyal, long-time DC minivan owners from Chrysler who have had great experiences with their vehicles.
Oh well, only time will tell what company will get the last laugh when it comes to dominance of the minivan market. While I think it's pretty safe to say that no one can remain on top forever, but DC just might do it. They have a great looking, versatile, powerful, safe, and relitively cheap vehicle that has attracted people to it for the last 2 decades. It should be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.
-Adam
Our daughter's friend Julie got a used 96 T&C LXi she loved. Started having a few problems with airconditioning so they shopped around. They could not find another minivan they liked as well as T&C, so they traded 96 in on a 99 T&C Limited.
Our local Dodge dealer has provided supurb routine maintenance. We had purchased mostly Chevrolet vehicles and had been completely satisfied. However, in early 1999 my wife did not like climbing up into an Astro and the Venture seemed primitive and crude compared to DC minivans, Odyssey, and Windstar. We are looking at all minivans and it will be difficult to select one as DC, Odyssey, and Sienna each has distinct advantages.
My personal feeling is that D/C hasn't had any real compition until the last 3 or 4 years. It takes people a while to look at other options when buying new vehicles. Like I've said I look forward to the compition. D/C has improved already from it and when D/C has longer improved reliability record I will consider one again.
I agree that the disappearing seat is overrated unless you need to haul alot of large items. On the other hand it is nice not to have the third seat taking the parking spot up in the garage when you do need the space for hauling. I don't miss wrestling with seat the very few times I've needed the cargo space.
After owning a 96 DC which I traded in on a 99 ODY EX, I would like to add a few comments.
The 01 is a vast improvement over my 96. The headlights are at least as good as the Honda on low beam. A little better on bright.
The fit and finish were noticable improvements over the 96. It rode well, handled well and, in general, I was impressed at how much an improvement was over my 96.
Since it was a rental, it did not have a premium sound system. The radio "seek" button could never lock on a station. That I attributed to rental abuse.
I did prefer the DC handling to the ODY.
The DC had the 3.3 engine. As far as acceleration it was much slower than my ODY.
I had to allow more space pulling out from a stop to merging with moving traffic.
The seats were at least as comfortable as my ODY.
The actual differences between the 01 DC and my ODY were so small that I was surprised. That is probably because I was comparing my ODY to a 96 not an 01.
Now the infinity sound system in my 96 was a 10 compared to Honda's 6.
I believe either choice is a good one.
http://www.hondanews.com
NEW FEATURES SUMMARY FOR 2002 MODEL
*Class leading 240 Horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 (regular unleaded fuel)
*First minivan with standard 5-speed automatic transmission
*First minivan with standard front and side air bags
*First minivan with available factory-installed DVD entertainment system
*Standard four wheel disc brakes (rear disc brakes added)
*Improved Noise Vibration Harshness (NVH) dampening
*Improved ride with same sedan-like handling
*Available leather trimmed interior (EX)
*Enhanced interior utility
*Freshened exterior styling
*New Colors (Redrock Pearl, Evergreen Pearl, Havasu Blue Pearl)
No information about pricing yet that I could see.
The 240hp 3.5L V6 is certainly the most powerful engine currently offered in any minivan. However, some sources point out that Chrysler will put the 300m 253hp 3.5 V6 engine in some of their 2002 model vans (Town & Country, Grand Caravan). I suppose we will have to wait and see.
First minivan with the 5-speed automatic transmission? I think I remember someone saying here one the board that the new Kia Sedona also has a 5-speed automatic transmission. I've already seen one or two of these vans on the road.
In addition, for 2002 Chrysler is also offering a DVD video system that is available when you purchase the car. The DVD video system is not made from a third-party company but through Chrysler's OWN parts company, MOPAR. There has been a 2001 Town & Country in the showroom of the local Chrysler dealership with a MOPAR DVD system for the last few months.
Anway, I'm not trying to knock the Ody or Honda on this one. Afterall, no other minivan offered both standard front and side airbags for front seat passengers. That is an excellent safety feature that is to be appreciated. However, it seems to me that some of their "firsts" are not really "firsts" for Honda at all. Considering, other 2002 model vans will be offering the same features ( possibly engine, transmission, built in dvd system).