We'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole content thing. It's got great performance, but, IMO, is lacking in the content department.
But please keep your 'intent' out of non-WRX topics. I'm tired of hearing it come up in just about every topic, even when nobody's talking about it (like in the S4 vs. M3 topic - and you were the one to bring it in there, if I do recall - it was when you were spamming the C&D comparo article all over Edmunds).
Let's put it this way - You're all tired of me in here (believe me, I know you're all sick and tired of reading my posts - now you know how I feel in other topics), and I'm tired of having to read about the WRX in every topic imaginable that has nothing to do with the Rex. You keep the WRX to its assigned topics and I'll stay out of here.
It's like Mike (Paisan) says in his post before this. :-)
Seriously, though, I will try and be a little less gun-ho and not be the first to bring up the WRX in other posts (if, indeed I was guilty of that "crime")but I won't disappear. BTW, I still like your car and you are welcome here if you chose. We Subaru folks are really very friendly...really!
Well, it's been 9 months since I first heard of this car, 9 months of saving money and calculating payments, insurance, etc etc, 9 months in which interest rates tumbled and mfrs, dealers, and banks constantly sweetened deals to build up their pipelines as much as possible, making a new car purchase more and more attractive. Early on, I thought I'd never be able to afford this car. Then, during June/July, I realized I COULD afford this car, so long as I continued in my current position.
Now, I still have this job, (I'm responsible for generating leads, and have done a damn good job of that) and management keeps saying we're secure (they'd hacked expenses during mid-summer to make them match our known revenue stream for remainder 2001, so the current economic problems aren't hurting us too much).
Yet I've not had my name attached to any new revenue-generating contracts, and even though it's on somebody else's shoulders that nothing's closed, I have strong doubts about whether my successful performance in my own job will keep me safe if, after I've been here a full 4 quarters (end of Q1 2002), other people haven't done theirs.
Therefor, it is with heavy heart that I have decided to suspend my plans to purchase a WRX, or any new car, and instead concentrate my efforts on having money in case what my manager said this morning when I discussed the above 2 paragraphs with him (he said "you won't be the first one under the microscope if none of your leads creates a contract by March") turns out to be an empty reassurance.
I have a Silver Sedan and as a matter of fact I bought it at Roseville Subaru.! It has the spoiler and the carbon fiber trim on it. !!!!!!!!! It has the security upgrade on it. I live out in the MIdtown area and have not had very much time to drive it being tooooooo busy. The salesman told me to use the medium grade gas and not the highest octane. How critical is this ? tons of new father questions....................:)
Only use what fuel grade the owners manual calls for. That salesman is not a Subaru Engineer, and he has no say in any warranty issues you may run into in the future.
Lacking in content compared to a far more expensive car, perhaps, but not for its price. That is the rub.
Audis just fall at much higher price points. Remember, AWD is not standard, and neither is a CD changer. So it would fair to say that Audis lack content even for the price.
We'll see if Audi corrects this with the new A4, by making more things standard. But 3700+ lbs for a compact? The old A4 is a tough act to follow, but IMO Audi is past its peak.
My A4 cost me $28k loaded with everything except the sports package. That's only $3k more that a WRX would have cost me the way I would have loaded it up. Factor in the fact that my A4 is cheaper to lease than the WRX would have been, and the 'more expensive' argument doesn't fly, at least with me. My A4 is cheaper than a WRX would have been, and that's not even counting insurance, which would have been more on the WRX, too.
I got it for about $1,500 or so over invoice, which was a good deal, but not amazing by any means. Sticker was a hair under $30k ($29,565 with destination). Like I said, I don't have the sports package or a CD changer, but I do have everything else (wouldn't buy their phone if you paid me and I couldn't find one with ESP). It's a 2001 A4 1.8T with Quattro, 5 speed manual tranny, Celebration Package, Cold Weather Package, metallic paint, xenons and Bose stereo (I think that's everything). If you don't believe me, go to www.kbb.com and check for yourself.
The way the lease worked out, both being $0 down, 3 year leases, the A4 was $425 per month, the WRX would have been $492 per month (both are before tax). Subaru was charging 10% on their leases and the residual value was horrible (in the low 50%'s). Audi, OTOH, only charged me 6% interest and the residual was better (don't remember exactly what it was). It would have cost about the same to buy the WRX as it would to lease it.
You have to compare cars with the same level of performance. Your A4 is closer to an RS, really.
Fitzmall.com has RSs for $19k, WRXs for $23-24k, mostly. The RS is $200 over invoice and the WRX is $700 over invoice. I recall you mentioned your price quotes were for a WRX at full retail, which noone is paying any more.
Also, the tables have turned, rather dramatically. The A4 costs more and is now the brand new model, selling for full MSRP and without those lease incentives.
So I'm sure you'll agree that the current payments would be the other way around, even if you did spring for the extra performance in the WRX.
If we're comparing 2002 models, the A4 may or may not end up being more expensive, or they may be just about the same. Remember that the WRX's residual value will be less now than it was back then since it's always been a 2002 model, and the A4's would be higher since it's a brand new model. I'd have to see all of the numbers to be sure, and I don't think Audi has released lease numbers for the new A4 yet (at least Car Man doesn't have them). But a $70 difference is pretty significant, you've got to admit.
I haven't shopped at all since I got my car, so I couldn't say with certainty what the deals would be as of today. Maybe the Subie dealers in Denver are still charging MSRP. Maybe they're not. I have no idea and I don't really feel like visiting them and finding out. I'd bet I could get a discount off the A4's MSRP, but probably only $500 or so max.
And do you really think someone cross-shopping the WRX, Passat, A4, 325i, IS300 (where the Passat and WRX are the least expensive cars on the list) is going to seriously look at a 2.5RS? I sure wouldn't (and didn't - I never even wanted to drive one). The only thing the WRX has going for it is its performance. Take that away, and you've just got a cheap, ugly car left, IMO. It's got the same basic lack of amenities that the WRX has and it's lacking the WRX's performance as well.
If you haven't figured it out yet, performance numbers weren't the highest priority on my list when I bought.
I always buy instead of leasing, and either put in large down payments or pay cash outright. So for me it's hard to tell what a good lease deal is. Like I said, sounds like Audi worked the numbers for you and you got a deal.
On i-Club the A4 is quite often mentioned as an alternative. It was even before the WRX existed.
The RS has good low end torque because of its displacement, and good handling, plus excellent value for an AWD sedan. It may not appeal to you, but it does have a lot going for it.
i dont know what you wound up actually paying for your A4, but deals at $500 over invoice on WRX's were being had daily. You also state that it would have cost the same to buy as to lease a WRX at $492 a month, but that is not the case, empirically, since even a 7% loan would make 5 year payments well into the mid $500's for a zero down deal, on a 25000 note.
And you were talking about a 3 year period which would have payments in the high 700's. Not even the same ballpark as the lease!
#1 - I checked with several dealers here in Denver. None would budge off MSRP back in the March time frame this past spring. I stopped looking there because I decided to get an A4 instead. Maybe I could have done better, but I'd bet I would have had to drive a long ways to get anywhere near $500 over invoice. Denver is a nutty market for AWD/4WD cars. Always has been, always will be. I think it's because we're so close to the Rockies.
#2 - I guess I should have been more specific in my example on the buy side. Had I bought the WRX, I would have financed over 5 years. At 7%, a $25,000 loan is $495.03 per month by my calculations, and I know quite well how to do this type of calculation (but that doesn't include sales tax or a down payment on the loan, which would both change the principal amount of the loan). 7% is roughly what I could have gotten at my credit union, but I didn't pursue it any further after I decided to get the A4.
And you DO know what I ended up paying for my A4 - I already told you. Why don't you scroll back 10 posts or so and find it? And check your attitude while you're at it - I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to go after me when you can't even get your numbers right.
What timing. Automobile has a new review of the RS in the current issue. I'm going to check it out.
You do have a point, though. Demand for Subies is high in Colorado, and in parts of Canada. Basically, wherever it snows.
But prospective shoppers shouldn't rule out picking the car up out of town and making a road trip back home. Or, some dealers will deliver a car, even out of state.
Had I decided I wanted the WRX, I probably would have checked around more. I don't think I would have been willing to go all that far (Cheyenne, WY is about as far as I would have gone - about 2 hours north of Denver), though. It's just not worth it to me.
I've heard of people from Pennsylvania and Virginia coming up to Fitzgerald in MD, but to each his/her own.
I'd go just because I like road trips. I'd find an excuse to make it, and then look on the bright side - the painful wait until the end of the break-in period would be a lot shorter. :-)
Except I've driven cross-country without cruise control before (shouldn't use it during the break-in period). Talk about leg cramps from holding your right leg in one place for several hours...
And the West is much different than the East. Denver is literally the only city around for a few hundred miles (not including Colo. Springs or Boulder - they're almost part of Denver now). The next closest 'city' is several hundred miles away.
I have a WRX wagon. I am satified with the price. I am satisfied with the content. I have always owned less expensive cars. This the the most expensive car I have ever owned. This is the fastest car I have ever owned. It has the most luxury content of any car I have ever owned. I teach school and I am not wealthy and I finally saw my chance to own a really hot car. To each his own and I sure like the WRX. TWRX
although I don't care what car you're in - you're sore after 15 hours in the saddle. I'm talking about holding your foot at that weird gas pedal angle for hours on end. Trust me, it gives you cramps in the calf and in the shin(I used to drive Denver to San Antonio while in college - 15 hours straight through in a 1992 Integra with no cruise control). I used to drive with the left foot on the gas for a while to give the right one a break - it's not that easy to do!
twrs - I'm glad you're happy with your WRX. I have the utmost respect for teachers. And your WRX is faster than any car I've ever owned, by a long shot.
It's been a few days since I checked in and it seems like the WRX vs the world debate has again flamed up. I'm not sure that the WRX really has a direct competitor. The 323 , A4 comparison makes sense, the S2000 , BoxsterS comparison makes sense - but the WRX vs what? It seems like auto mags increasingly feature competition, car vs car, as a sales tool (hopefully the car you bought has won the recent competition to validate your purchase). I really think the CD comparo is a strech since the WRX does not provide the luxury amenities of either of the other two vehicles mentioned. I make this statement even with a WRX in my garage. I would have rather seen a comparison between a Lancer Evo and the WRX even though the the Evo is unobtainum to us at this time. That would have been a far more interesting match up, no??
Having said that, maybe Subaru owners can be proud that Subaru finally brought to North America a car that has generated so much interest, admiration and controversy that many people just want to have a "go at it"!
You mean it's offered as an Subaru/STi part? Obviously, not here in the U.S., since it's not even legal to do that. That being said, I do know someone who replaced the last cat with a straight pipe (strictly for off-road applications, of course). Having driven it, I can't say there's any discernable power gain. There is, however, much better low-end RPM response. No more bogging on starts in first!
some of you have not seen it, we do have a Subaru WRX vs. Audi A4 discussion going on over on the comparisons board. There's also one other WRX comparison on that board, and we could start any others that folks find of interest.
not to bring up bad blood or anything but barresa and I never brought up the S4-330xi-WRX comparo, that was post #894 by jbwcfp. If this had not been brought up I would never have said anything. I'm kinda sorry I did now because I thought these forums were for expounding our thoughts on each car with respect to others that we have seen/driven in our experience. I never would have continued in the S4-M3 disc. if I had not been attacked personally there. It just burns me up when some people (and I am definitely and seriously NOT talking about you)think that just because they own a prestigious and expensive car they can poo-poo and ridicule and denigrate anybody that has an opinion contrary to theirs. On a personal note, I welcome your presence in this disc because you have helped me to not jump on this bandwagon simply because of speed and performance. Similarly to everyone else who has posted here, except for you paisan.(just kidding ;~)
Use premium, dont listen to the Roseville Subaru salesman, they arent trustworthy on stats or anything that I know of... I just hope you didnt pay to much for you car from them :P
I would have directed you to Gold Rush (auburn) Subaru, or down to Maita Subaru to see Chris Jones... Much better stores and service.
Anyway, I saw a silver sedan today (10/2) on Auburn road at 6:00
I ended up paying 23,900 for the car it has the carbon fiber trim, security upgrade and the wing on the back to keep it on the ground for speeds in access of 200 miles an hour! sure yeah I suppose i could have gotten it for less but somehow. low impulse control and not having a vehicle that has A/C in it was the clincher. I have just moved from a much cooler climate in Eureka Calif and having no A/C was killing me. I wanted the silver so I just jumped on it!!!!!!!!!! I look forwards to the day when I can be less conservative on the gas pedal after the car is broken in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't done a road trip that long in about 5 years, maybe more. I did a DC to Tampa drive (about 14 hours) several times while in college. Cruise control was a huge bonus. Man, those were the days.
I haven't been on a trip longer than 7 hours in a long time.
my daughter's college (UNCW) Sunday, we took the "scenic" route. No interstates (U.S. 17, U.S. 13, U.S. 301), it took us almost 10 hours, (numerous pit stops—too much soda!). It was close to 470 miles.
Yeah Chris Jones at Maita is nice but when i started talking prices for an order they did start at 5% over invoice and i said uhhhhhhh..no but now i have them at $500 over invoice for one with air filter, pop. group 2, boost gauge and arm rest and i think i will order it this week. I can always change my mind before it gets here. problem is I am wanting to buy a house with the low rates and a new car does not make a whole lot of sense. I can always sleep in my car...hmmmmmmm....
I used to do the San Antonio-Denver trip in 14-15 hours (14 was my personal record). Almost exactly 1000 miles door to door. Stop only for gas, go to the bathroom and eat when you get gas.
Needless to say, my wife doesn't enjoy taking road trips with me
You nailed it. The wife changed things. My last drive to Tamps, she flew! I actually drove alone but went ahead and spent more time there while I was at it, and we didn't have to rent a car.
Now, with a toddler, 2-3 hours is about the limit between lengthy stops.
Comments
But please keep your 'intent' out of non-WRX topics. I'm tired of hearing it come up in just about every topic, even when nobody's talking about it (like in the S4 vs. M3 topic - and you were the one to bring it in there, if I do recall - it was when you were spamming the C&D comparo article all over Edmunds).
Let's put it this way - You're all tired of me in here (believe me, I know you're all sick and tired of reading my posts - now you know how I feel in other topics), and I'm tired of having to read about the WRX in every topic imaginable that has nothing to do with the Rex. You keep the WRX to its assigned topics and I'll stay out of here.
Deal?
-mike
Anyway, WRXDude, I live up in roseville, what kind of WRX did you get (color)? Ive seen alot around, but never have any luck with sightings :P
Seriously, though, I will try and be a little less gun-ho and not be the first to bring up the WRX in other posts (if, indeed I was guilty of that "crime")but I won't disappear. BTW, I still like your car and you are welcome here if you chose. We Subaru folks are really very friendly...really!
Peace,
Stephen
Now, I still have this job, (I'm responsible for generating leads, and have done a damn good job of that) and management keeps saying we're secure (they'd hacked expenses during mid-summer to make them match our known revenue stream for remainder 2001, so the current economic problems aren't hurting us too much).
Yet I've not had my name attached to any new revenue-generating contracts, and even though it's on somebody else's shoulders that nothing's closed, I have strong doubts about whether my successful performance in my own job will keep me safe if, after I've been here a full 4 quarters (end of Q1 2002), other people haven't done theirs.
Therefor, it is with heavy heart that I have decided to suspend my plans to purchase a WRX, or any new car, and instead concentrate my efforts on having money in case what my manager said this morning when I discussed the above 2 paragraphs with him (he said "you won't be the first one under the microscope if none of your leads creates a contract by March") turns out to be an empty reassurance.
DjB
tons of new father questions....................:)
Audis just fall at much higher price points. Remember, AWD is not standard, and neither is a CD changer. So it would fair to say that Audis lack content even for the price.
We'll see if Audi corrects this with the new A4, by making more things standard. But 3700+ lbs for a compact? The old A4 is a tough act to follow, but IMO Audi is past its peak.
-juice
-mike
Stephen
-Frank P.
The way the lease worked out, both being $0 down, 3 year leases, the A4 was $425 per month, the WRX would have been $492 per month (both are before tax). Subaru was charging 10% on their leases and the residual value was horrible (in the low 50%'s). Audi, OTOH, only charged me 6% interest and the residual was better (don't remember exactly what it was). It would have cost about the same to buy the WRX as it would to lease it.
-mike
-Frank P.
We are just talking about cars. It's not like we're comparing wives or anything...
(Mine can cook, clean and sew, but the downside is frequent trips to the mall).
Stephen
Fitzmall.com has RSs for $19k, WRXs for $23-24k, mostly. The RS is $200 over invoice and the WRX is $700 over invoice. I recall you mentioned your price quotes were for a WRX at full retail, which noone is paying any more.
Also, the tables have turned, rather dramatically. The A4 costs more and is now the brand new model, selling for full MSRP and without those lease incentives.
So I'm sure you'll agree that the current payments would be the other way around, even if you did spring for the extra performance in the WRX.
OTOH, you got a bargain.
-juice
I haven't shopped at all since I got my car, so I couldn't say with certainty what the deals would be as of today. Maybe the Subie dealers in Denver are still charging MSRP. Maybe they're not. I have no idea and I don't really feel like visiting them and finding out. I'd bet I could get a discount off the A4's MSRP, but probably only $500 or so max.
And do you really think someone cross-shopping the WRX, Passat, A4, 325i, IS300 (where the Passat and WRX are the least expensive cars on the list) is going to seriously look at a 2.5RS? I sure wouldn't (and didn't - I never even wanted to drive one). The only thing the WRX has going for it is its performance. Take that away, and you've just got a cheap, ugly car left, IMO. It's got the same basic lack of amenities that the WRX has and it's lacking the WRX's performance as well.
If you haven't figured it out yet, performance numbers weren't the highest priority on my list when I bought.
On i-Club the A4 is quite often mentioned as an alternative. It was even before the WRX existed.
The RS has good low end torque because of its displacement, and good handling, plus excellent value for an AWD sedan. It may not appeal to you, but it does have a lot going for it.
-juice
And you were talking about a 3 year period which would have payments in the high 700's. Not even the same ballpark as the lease!
#2 - I guess I should have been more specific in my example on the buy side. Had I bought the WRX, I would have financed over 5 years. At 7%, a $25,000 loan is $495.03 per month by my calculations, and I know quite well how to do this type of calculation (but that doesn't include sales tax or a down payment on the loan, which would both change the principal amount of the loan). 7% is roughly what I could have gotten at my credit union, but I didn't pursue it any further after I decided to get the A4.
And you DO know what I ended up paying for my A4 - I already told you. Why don't you scroll back 10 posts or so and find it? And check your attitude while you're at it - I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to go after me when you can't even get your numbers right.
You do have a point, though. Demand for Subies is high in Colorado, and in parts of Canada. Basically, wherever it snows.
But prospective shoppers shouldn't rule out picking the car up out of town and making a road trip back home. Or, some dealers will deliver a car, even out of state.
-juice
I've heard of people from Pennsylvania and Virginia coming up to Fitzgerald in MD, but to each his/her own.
I'd go just because I like road trips. I'd find an excuse to make it, and then look on the bright side - the painful wait until the end of the break-in period would be a lot shorter. :-)
-juice
And the West is much different than the East. Denver is literally the only city around for a few hundred miles (not including Colo. Springs or Boulder - they're almost part of Denver now). The next closest 'city' is several hundred miles away.
TWRX
Yeah, DC is close to Annapolis, Baltimore, Richmond, Philly, Pitt, Trenton, the list goes on.
I do think that most WRX owners moved up from lower priced cars. But the same may be true of A4 buyers, onward and upward.
-juice
twrs - I'm glad you're happy with your WRX. I have the utmost respect for teachers. And your WRX is faster than any car I've ever owned, by a long shot.
It's been a few days since I checked in and it seems like the WRX vs the world debate has again flamed up. I'm not sure that the WRX really has a direct competitor. The 323 , A4 comparison makes sense, the S2000 , BoxsterS comparison makes sense - but the WRX vs what? It seems like auto mags increasingly feature competition, car vs car, as a sales tool (hopefully the car you bought has won the recent competition to validate your purchase). I really think the CD comparo is a strech since the WRX does not provide the luxury amenities of either of the other two vehicles mentioned. I make this statement even with a WRX in my garage. I would have rather seen a comparison between a Lancer Evo and the WRX even though the the Evo is unobtainum to us at this time. That would have been a far more
interesting match up, no??
Having said that, maybe Subaru owners can be proud that Subaru finally brought to North America a car that has generated so much interest, admiration and controversy that many people just want to have a "go at it"!
-mike
Come over and check out that board, if you haven't already - Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Will you send me a free, signed copy?
I'm a lazy bastage, no workout for me hee hee. But drivin is what I like to do for fun (average about 40-50K/year all non-work related miles)
-mike
I never would have continued in the S4-M3 disc. if I had not been attacked personally there. It just burns me up when some people (and I am definitely and seriously NOT talking about you)think that just because they own a prestigious and expensive car they can poo-poo and ridicule and denigrate anybody that has an opinion contrary to theirs.
On a personal note, I welcome your presence in this disc because you have helped me to not jump on this bandwagon simply because of speed and performance. Similarly to everyone else who has posted here, except for you paisan.(just kidding ;~)
I would have directed you to Gold Rush (auburn) Subaru, or down to Maita Subaru to see Chris Jones... Much better stores and service.
Anyway, I saw a silver sedan today (10/2) on Auburn road at 6:00
I suppose i could have gotten it for less but somehow. low impulse control and not having a vehicle that has A/C in it was the clincher. I have just moved from a much cooler climate in Eureka Calif and having no A/C was killing me. I wanted the silver so I just jumped on it!!!!!!!!!! I look forwards to the day when I can be less conservative on the gas pedal after the car is broken in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't been on a trip longer than 7 hours in a long time.
-juice
Bob
Seems like after a few hours in a car together, there's not too much to talk about, except making fun of houses in northern Maine and New Brunswick.
I'm sure if we had a WRX Wagon, the trip would have been shorter.
Hopefully I can convince her to replace our '96 Accord.
-Craig
Maybe next year we'll go the scenic route. With a toddler we have frequent diaper changing stops anyway.
-juice
Needless to say, my wife doesn't enjoy taking road trips with me
Now, with a toddler, 2-3 hours is about the limit between lengthy stops.
-juice