Compact Sedans

Kirstie_H

Here's the place to discuss and compare vehicles in this class. Feel free to suggest additions to the make/model list - I just added a few to get us started.

(Note: the Cruze selection isn't working, but will be added when it's fixed)

overbrook

The bottom line is you can always get a used luxury car for the price of a new car in the mid 20s. Thats not an issue that is specific to loaded compacts. You could argue there is no point in a base model Accord or Malibu when a 5 year old luxury car could be had for the same money. People want new cars and they buy them. They want a warranty, they want the latest styling and features and they want something that isnt likely to need repairs for years. Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.

The average family sedan with an automatic doent get mid 30s on the highway, more like 33mpg. With the Cruze you can get 42mpg and with the Elantra and Focus you can get 40mpg. Thats quite a bit more than 33mpg in my book. The 3 has been a well equipped compact for many years now and it has succeeded in the US. There are always cheaper models of the Cruze and focus for people who want them but automakers feel there are many folks who dont agree with the idea that you should miss out on features just because you buy a small car. German luxury brands offer most of the same features on all their cars regardless of size- now GM and Ford are doing the same thing.

I dont consider the average $25k family midsize sedan "well equipped". A power seat and CD player dont count as well equipped in my book. If you skip GM's overprice nav you can get a Cruze with leather, sunroof, power seat, premium sound, back up sensors, USB port, heated seats, auto climate control, etc. for under $25k. Thats a pretty well equipped car for that amount.

backy

Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.

A lot of people are "silly" then, as this comparison of a new car to a used car (with more equipment, luxury, etc.) happens all the time.

You say the "average" midsized car gets 33 mpg highway. OK, let's assume you are correct about that. The average Cruze does NOT get 42 mpg highway. Any Cruze on the road today gets mid-30s highway (we are going on EPA ratings, yes?). The average new Elantra does get 40 mpg highway (EPA). Focus... let's see what the EPA ratings turn out to be. So not much difference between an average mid-sized (I4) car and the average Cruze in highway fuel economy.

We will have to agree to disagree on what is well equipped. IMO a mid-sized car with leather heated seats (front and back), moonroof, auto climate control, Bluetooth, 17" alloys, and many other features is "well equipped" and can be had for just over $25k MSRP. If that is not "well equipped" to you, fine.

It's really a very simple point I am trying to make; not sure why there is so much consternation over it. The point is, the higher the price of a car, the more alternatives there are at the same price or below. Not so many good options for $15k-20k. But lots more at $25-27k. Many buyers (myself included) have a particular budget in mind when shopping for a car and will consider any car that meets or exceeds their needs within that budget--compact or mid-sized, hybrid or non-hybrid, new or used. Not all buyers shop like that, but I believe many do.

overbrook

Ford really hasnt released any weight figures for the Focus to my knowledge but if its close to the weight of the Cruze I dont see any way it can exceed the Cruze's mileage by a large margin. The Elantra is about 300lbs less than a Cruze LTZ and that is one of the main reasons it can hit 40mpg without any special features. I dont see any way the Focus will be matching the 29/40 of the Elantra when the Fiesta gets that mileage and weighs hundreds of lbs less than the Focus. My guess for the best Focus is around 27/40 with other models getting 37-38mpg on the highway. Let's not forget the Focus has the largest standard engine in the class and the most hp in class. Getting 40mpg from a 2L engine is no small task.

overbrook

Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze? I surely didnt. All your assumptions are based on the LTZ trim which is probably going to be the lowest volume trim for the Cruze. I dont think there is a HUGE market for $27k Cruzes or $26k Mazda3's or $28k Focus' BUT that doesn't mean they shouldn't be offered. If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one. I don't understand why anyone would take issue with automakers even offering these cars. Again, not everyone WANTS a midsize car so the fact that you CAN get one for the same price as a Cruze LTZ may not matter to some folks. I've seen 3 LTZs on the road so far so someone is buying them. I also pointed out the Focus (and to a lesser extent Cruze) offer features that some midsize sedans dont offer so its not as simple as saying "I can get a larger, better car for the same money".

You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts. I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features. Sure I can get an Accord for $25k but what features will it have vs a Cruze LTZ? Those who need backseat space may go for the Honda, but those who dont care about rear seat room may opt for the car with more features and more up to date technology. I know few people that set a price target and then shop for "any car" that can be had for that amount with no regards to the individual merits of each model.

backy

Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze?

No one did. I am glad we can agree on something... Chevy will sell few LTZs.

If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one.

I never said I don't like the idea of a loaded small (economy) car. I just don't like the idea of paying $25-27k for one when there are so many other good alternatives.

You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts.

And you are putting words on my fingers. Please point to the post(s) in which I said there is no market for loaded compacts. I never said that. What I said is that a compact economy car (albeit with many options) priced at $25-27k faces a lot of competition because of the price bracket it's in. I have tried to explain that idea a few times now. I'll stop trying.

I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features.

Again, I never said people shop on price ONLY. What I said was (and getting tired of having to repeat myself so much here), many people shop for cars with a certain budget in mind, and they will consider all vehicles that meet their needs within that budget. "That meet their needs" is the key phrase here... it says that price is NOT the only factor in the decision. But it's a key factor.

Here is a 3rd party opinion, from C/D's review of the Cruze in their January 2011 issue, that echoes my opinion on this subject--just to show I am not crazy nor the only person with this opinion:

As it is, our as-tested $25,460 LTZ makes as much sense as raisins on a Ritz. If you've got that sum tucked away, please tell us you're test-driving Accords, Optimas, and Sonatas...

P.S. Re your comment stating the only reason the Elantra gets 40 mpg is because of its lower weight and no other special features... the weight savings is responsible for only 10% of the fuel economy improvement in the 2011 Elantra vs. 2010. For details, please see:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/about-hyundai/news/Corporate_2011_Elantra_Compact_Seda- - n_Release-20101118.aspx

m6user

I didn't say the Focus would exceed the Cruze mpg by a "large margin". I said they will probably come in a little better than the Cruze even though Ford has been touting 40mpg hwy.

For example, the Prius weighs a few hundred pounds less but has hugely better mpg. I know it's a hybrid, but my point is that weight is not the only determining factor in MPG. If I carry a fairly heavy passenger in my car does my hwy mpg automatically drop 3-4 mpg? Hardly. There are many factors in gaining mpg so emphasising weight(plus or minus) as the main reason just doesn't tell the whole story. Gearing, aerodynamic drag, tires, engine size, engine type AND weight affect hwy mpg. I would argue that aerodynamic drag and gearing affect hwy mpg more than weight does. Weight probably weighs(no pun intended) more heavily on the city mpg.

backy

Toyota Corolla
Kia Forte
Mazda3
Mitsubishi Lancer
Nissan Sentra
Suzuki SX4
Subaru Impreza
Volkswagen Jetta
and of course the Cruze when it is possible to add it

We did have an "Economy Sedans" discussion (actually still do)... maybe that one should be shut down in favor of this one? I think the purpose of that one was to discuss cars like Civic, Corolla, Focus, Elantra, ...

Kirstie_H

i will toss some of those up there (remembering there's' a limit to the # we can list).

That discussion is appropriate, but decided since some vehicles have been added, others are outdated, and the price range listed isn't really up-to-date, it'd be easier to start fresh than tinker with that one.

(edit: Forte is broken for now too)

backy

Is the limit 9? If so, I guess once the Cruze and Forte are added that will be a good list. The others (Impreza, Lancer, SX4) don't have nearly the market share as the ones on the list although the Impreza in particular is a very nice compact and sells pretty well.

Kirstie_H

Yeah, it's 9. I picked the ones that are most commonly discussed around these parts. The Impreza is a good seller, but kind of a niche crowd, meaning I don't see it bandied about with other makes/models when discussing purchasing options. It's kind of in a class by itself... you pretty much decide to buy a Subaru, or you're deciding between all the others. Plus, we've got a pretty good Subaru Crew where folks can get info on that vehicle.

aviboy97

I dont see any way the Focus will be matching the 29/40 of the Elantra when the Fiesta gets that mileage and weighs hundreds of lbs less than the Focus

Ford is claiming they will get 40mpg on the highway, with some sort of SFE package like the Fiesta. The Fiesta w/o the SFE package gets 38mpg, IIRC.

Also, rumor in Mazda land is the 2012 Mazda3 i with the SKY-Active 2.0L will get 40 mpg hwy and 30 mpg city with HP/TQ numbers not really known yet.

It seems that 40 mpg hwy for a compact is the new standard.

dodgeman07

This is great! The 9 models included are the top picks in the segment and should make for some interesting discussions. The 2012 Ford Focus is the "wild-card" right now. I believe the new 2012 Civic will be out by fall also. Great! This is no longer economy sedans - North American car buyers now have some strong options in the compact class. I love the Jetta TDI but boy those babies can get pricey!

Cheers!

backy

FWIW the Jetta TDI starts in the same range as the Cruze LTZ (no options), and I would expect the Focus also. So pricing not that out of line for the class, albeit at the upper end of the class.

With the improving FE of the newer compacts and the high price of diesel fuel, I wonder about the economic value proposition of the TDI though.

dodgeman07

The Jetta TDI does? Base price on a Jetta TDI with an auto is $24,900. The Cruze LTZ? $22,700. Loaded the Jetta's $28,400. The Cruze LTZ? $25,900.

Maybe in the same mountain range as a Cruze LTZ; but a lot higher.

backy

Base price of the Jetta TDI starts at $23k. Not VW's fault that the Cruze LTZ cannot be had with a stick shift.

Kirstie_H

Well, *I* Consider $2K difference to be within the same "range," as stated, and the claim seems true also considering that backy ended with "So pricing not that out of line for the class, albeit at the upper end of the class."

dodgeman07

My point being; our resident Hyundai fanboy thinks the VW Jetta TDI is not pricey. That was my comment (that the Jetta TDI is pricey) when he stated it's similarly priced to the Cruze. It's not. TDIs average $25K out the door. Cruzes average $20K. Now if you're willing to buy a Hyundai? They're cheap. No arguement there - cheap is as cheap does.

backy

Thanks for telling me what I think. You completely misread (misunderstood?) my post. Maybe go back and read it again? Then you will see I wasn't talking about average out the door prices. (Although I would be interested to learn where you got the average out the door prices for the Jetta and Cruze.)

If re-reading a post won't disturb your mud-slinging activity, that is!

Sandman6472

I guess this would make you one of two "Cruze fanboys"? An interesting thought...objectively speaking!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

igozoomzoom

It's not quite up to the 40mpg mark, but the 2011 Kia Forte LX/EX with the new 6-speed automatic are rated at 26/36- 36mpg highway ain't too shabby! The EX 4-door with the Fuel Economy Package and 6AT is rated at 27/37mpg.

I also noticed that the Forte EX and SX 4-door are only available with the 6-speed A/T for 2011. The base LX 4-door and the EX and SX 5-door are the only models available with the 6-speed manual. The 6MT reduces the MPG ratings to 25/34 compared to the 6AT.

Kirstie_H

Considering the personal comments and sniping all over various sedans discussions lately, I'm contemplating banning the next person who uses the word "fanboy." It's juvenile. It makes absolutely no point whatsoever, and is right there on par with "I know you are, but what am I?" as a clever comeback. Enough.

puffin1

I don't see an Elantra with a 138 HP engine and a little heavy competing with a fiesta or a focus for torque, and fun to drive.
So the fords get about 4 miles less a gallon,big deal.
. What about a Hyundai's resale value? Does the Fiesta come with rear drums I think so.
Hyundai's always have been under powered. I can't wait to see the Volster. Another dog from Hyundai. It's too bad ,because their styling is good and they have sort of a Ford sync offered in the newer models.

puffin1

Jeff if your on here ,please tell me what engine will be in the new VW Polo. A 1.4 liter 79 HP can't be true.
TY

backy

FYI, the 2011 Elantra has 148 hp--more than almost every other car in the class. Also, the Elantra took first place in its class in the 2010 ALG Residual Value Awards with the highest projected resale percentage value of any compact car.

Not sure what you mean by the Elantra being "a little heavy." A little heavy compared to what? It's considerably lighter than the Mazda3, Corolla, Sentra, and Cruze, and only 30-40 lbs. heavier than the 2011 Civic and Focus (M/Ts). Will the new Civic and Focus be a lot lighter than the current designs?

smallcar1

Ford does not list the Focus's weight. The width is 71.8 which does not seem compact at all. Also all Focus sedans have low profile tires as does the Limited Elantra. The low profile tires are noisier, bumpier and have less snow traction. Why do these car companies think everyone who wants a higher trim or in all cases with the Focus a bumpier, noisier ride? Mazda does the same with the 3S. I rented a hatchback and it was very noisy and I felt every bump. I prefer a smoother ride but anyone who wants heated leather seats in an Elantra or heated leather seats and a more powerful engine in a Mazda 3 is forced to get these tires.

backy

I suppose you could swap out the 17" wheels on the Elantra (or other compacts) for the 16" alloys from the GLS Preferred package, or even 15" wheels (except if you want alloys in 15" size you'd need to go aftermarket). I'll bet the dealer would swap the 16" wheels at no charge.

puffin1

Yup, I goofed. I was interested in the Elantra for a few years and gave up on them beacuse of the 138 hp, didn't know they went with a 148hp/ I had a Mazda 3 I new Value 2008 and it had an auto tranny 4 spd. and cheap RSA Eagles on it. Those tires will kill you in rain or snow. You can't buy that car today. Mazda
forces you to up grade.The I New Value came w/sunroof, 6cd and moonrooof.
Also, what's with no lumbar support. I dumped it with 12000 miles on it and got twice the car in a Golf. Multi level heated seats like my BMW and grab bars,and moonroof, lumbar support and Bluetooth 177hp 5spd. I get 34 highway 24 city. I paid $15,500 less than the cars I tried. VW and it had a nicer cockpit and amenities of an Audi hard to find multi level seats w/ lumbar in a Ford, Cruze or most sub or compact cars.. Think Fiesta would have grab bars nope.
I sure like the looks of the Elantra and know many repeat buyers.I didn't know they finnally put some ponies in there. Thats what held us back.
We have a BMW and Wifes Lexus IS and wanted a fun winter beater. I tried Fiesta, Cruze,Kia, and Civic all egg beaters. I like a car with no road, ,or engine noise. :shades:

crkyolfrt

If he were to go to 15" from 17" the profile of the tire would have to go up or else he will end up with higher rpms which would probably affect FE.
He would also have to have speedo speed sensor adjusted, or replaced.

crkyolfrt

" I tried Fiesta, Cruze,Kia, and Civic all egg beaters. I like a car with no road, ,or engine noise."

I thought the Fiesta and Cruze were known for their lack of road and engine noise? I agree about the seat in the Cruze tho. Lumbar was noticeably missing. Plus the seatback dug into me at shoulder level, which exasperated the lack of lumbar. Have almost ruled that car out because of the seat. I'm surprised that no one else has commented on that aspect of the seat yet. I am average height.

Sandman6472

We haven't driven one yet & with my severe spinal issues getting worse of late, that's the 1st thing I notice...the drivers seat. Took my kids Versa for some warranty work this morning and sat in a 2011 Versa S seat & was truly amazed at how nice it is. I could just slide over like in a minivan and the new fabric was grippy yet of good material that should last a long time. No falling into the seat with this car which I do in my Civic even with a seat cushion. Hoping we find another seat as good as the Versa's when we start our search. Hoping the Buick version will fit the bill as well as the Elantra.

But the car is for the wife...I only use it to put in petrol & have warranty/maintenance work done. She drives when we go out due to my spinal issues & the worsening sciatica.

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

backy

That is the point. With the smaller rims, the tire profile is bigger, putting more rubber (air) between rim and road and most likely providing a smoother ride than with the larger rims. Also might impact handling a bit, but that's the typical tradeoff--less crisp handling vs. firmer/harsher ride (and often more road noise).

Kirstie_H

is now here: Tires, tires, tires

smallcar1

Everone I have spoken to who had a car with low profile tires popped at least one tire on a pothole. My mechanic told me he fixes many more flats on low profile tires or the tires have to be replaced from scraping curbs.

I'm surprised the Elantra would go to low profile tires because the car has usually been considered their answer to the Corolla.

It will be interesting to see the Buick Verano as it appears to be a more luxurious rather than more sporty compact.

igozoomzoom

Everyone I have spoken to who had a car with low profile tires popped at least one tire on a pothole. My mechanic told me he fixes many more flats on low profile tires or the tires have to be replaced from scraping curbs.

My 2006 Mazda3 has P205/50VR17 tires and, prior to buying it back in 12/2005, I had never owned anything with wheels over 15" or a sidewall aspect ratio lower than 60. So I was pretty much oblivious to the drawbacks and potential problems that a lower sidewall profile can cause! I had a nasty run-in with a pothole and trashed both rims on the right side of my car.

Amazingly, it bent both 17" alloy wheels, but didn't damage the tires at all! The force of the impact went straight thru the tire into the wheel. I was grateful the tires weren't trashed along with the wheels, but the tires would only cost about $130/each to replace...I spent over $500 buying a new wheel for the front and having the bent rear wheel repaired.

Thankfully, Georgia has some of the best quality roads in the country. The road where I had my nasty mishap is out in the middle of nowhere (near my parents’ house) and it’s not state maintained. That should mean that it is a country-maintained road, but they don’t see it that way. I still have my old ’92 Accord (owned it since 1993) and I drive it when I go out to po-dunk to see the family. She has 372k miles on the clock and rattles a little on those bumpy roads, but the potholes and other road imperfections hardly phase her!

I’ve made it three years without destroying another wheel or damaging a tire…but I’ve scared the hell out of people riding with me if I suddenly run up on a pothole and take ‘EVASIVE ACTION’!

Sandman6472

We're waiting to get a good look at this new Buick...it could just be our next vehicle. Will it be a 2011 or 2012 model? Would prefer a 2nd year model if possible & if all goes according to plan, we'll hit 100k on the Mazda3 about the time the 2013's come out. Looks like the Verano & the Elantra will be duking it out for our $. Want a long warranty also.

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

plekto

Just a note - the Cruze and Verano are mid-size and Edmunds has them correctly classified as such. They do not belong in this discussion.

The EPA has the Cruze incorrectly classified in their database. GM markets it as a "Compact" but they're cheating, as its interior space is really much larger than most everything else they are marketing it against. The ride is better as well, being that it has a mid-size wheelbase.

backy

Then cars like the Elantra, Forte, and Sentra don't belong here either. They have mid-sized interiors per EPA volume numbers. However, they, like the Cruze and Verano, are one size down in length from "mid-sized" sedans like Accord, Camry, Sonata, Optima, Malibu, Fusion etc. etc. So all these cars--including Cruze, Verano, Elantra, Forte, and Sentra--are rightly considered "compact" sedans, to differentiate them from "mid-sized" sedans like those I listed.

FWIW, the Cruze is really NOT much larger than most everything else Chevy is marketing it against. For example, here's some interior volume numbers, with passenger volume in parentheses, for some of Cruze's competitors:

Cruze: 110.0 (94.6)
Forte: 111.5 (96.8)
Sentra: 110.5 (97.4)
Elantra: 110.4 (95.6)
Jetta: 109.6 (94.1)
Versa: 108.5 (94.7)

So Forte, Sentra and Elantra all top the Cruze in overall volume, and those three plus the Versa top the Cruze in passenger volume. And the Jetta is a fraction of a cube smaller inside than the Cruze.

As far as the Cruze having a "mid-sized" wheelbase, it's in the upper range for compacts these days, but compacts these days are bigger than those of a few years ago. For example, the wheelbase of the Elantra is bigger than that of the Cruze, and the Sentra's is the same. And others are within an inch or two of the Cruze's, e.g. Forte and Jetta are both over 104 inches.

plekto

Then the discussion name needs to be changed to "Small sedans", as anything over 110 is mid-size. Or the list needs to be changed greatly to reflect what are really compact cars.

backy

The Accent and Fiesta are "small sedans", also. But not compacts. Although the current Accent is considered "compact" sized by EPA interior volume numbers. But the EPA considers the Civic to be a sub-compact. Kick that one out of here!!!

Who ever said we must limit and title our discussions only based on EPA interior volume numbers? :confuse:

Sandman6472

Why don't we just leave things alone...I think everyone understands the cars we're talking about anyways...no need to disrupt the apple cart! This is turning into one of my favorite forums lately, so let's keep it the way it is! Thanks. Maybe it's because one of these cars will be sitting in my garage within the next couple of years! Yay!!! (Really wanna buy something!)

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

igozoomzoom

What was Buick thinking with that name...Verano?

The only thing I can think of when I see/hear that name is the godawful 2004-2006 Suzuki Verona (aka- Daewoo Leganza with a Suzuki emblem glued on the front and back)!

backy

Maybe that explains why so many car companies use numbers for car names... hard to find good names these days. Like... what's an "elantra"? Or "sentra"?? At least "corolla" means something, but I wonder how many people could say what it means w/o looking it up? Civic... now that's a good name I think.

plekto

The issue I have is that some of the cars are being unfairly compared to much smaller vehicles as a result. The Ford and the GM aren't compacts any more and surprise - they tend to win handily against most of the smaller and often less well built vehicles in the same tests.

At 3300 lbs, the Cruze is not compact in my book, or if it is, it's the biggest whale of a compact ever made. To me, weight is the main determiner. A compact car should be under 3000lbs as well. This is far more important than the actual size of the sheet metal that they add or subtract at the front and rear of the car. (you'll note that side by side, the Regal and Cruse have essentially identically sized center sections)

P.S. And the Civic, even the smallest interior sedan with sunroof is just a little over 100 cubic ft combined trunk and interior, so it's legitimately a compact car. It's also between 600 and 700 lbs lighter than the Cruze.

backy

The Focus isn't a compact any more? You could have fooled me. By interior room, by size, by weight, the Focus that is for sale in the USA today sure seems like a compact car.

Honda says the Civic EX has a curb weight of 2820 with the AT. The comparable-trim Cruze 2LT with AT weighs 3102 pounds according to Chevy. That's a difference of less than 300 pounds... not 600-700 pounds. And if you check the EPA site for 2011 Sub-Compact cars, you will find the Honda Civic there. But I'll bet most people don't consider the Civic to be a sub-compact, but a compact. Just as they would consider the Cruze and Focus to be compacts.

I think you are making this WAY too complicated.

plekto

I was basing the comments on the Verano, which is a restyled Cruze.(figured the two where roughly similar) Apparently there is a 200lb difference.

igozoomzoom

At 3300 lbs, the Cruze is not compact in my book, or if it is, it's the biggest whale of a compact ever made. To me, weight is the main determiner. A compact car should be under 3000lbs as well.

Actually, the Cruze 2LT weighs in at 3,104lbs, but it's in good company-

Mazda3 s Grand Touring 4-door AT- 3,098lbs
Mitsubishi Lancer GTS CVT 4-door- 3,076lbs
Volkswagen Jetta SEL 4-door AT- 3,109lbs
2012 Ford Focus Titanium 4-door- 3,015lbs
Subaru Impreza 2.5i 4-door AT - 3,119lbs (impressive considering the AWD hardware)

For the purposes of this forum, discussing and comparing cars that most buyers will cross-shop with one or more 'true' compact models is reason enough to include them! Very few consumers disqualify models of similar size because of a few hundred pounds or a few cubic feet of interior space.

igozoomzoom

Maybe that explains why so many car companies use numbers for car names... hard to find good names these days. Like... what's an "elantra"? Or "sentra"?? At least "corolla" means something, but I wonder how many people could say what it means w/o looking it up? Civic... now that's a good name I think.

The alpha, numeric, and alpha/numeric designations are really becoming annoying; even more so if they replace a perfectly decent REAL name (as in a word, whether real or pulled out of a hat)!

Honda has been the most consistent non-luxury brand with their names. CIVIC has worked perfectly for 38 years or so and the same is true of ACCORD for 34 years. Too bad they didn't use that wisdom with their co-workers at Acura! Tossing the 'LEGEND' and 'INTEGRA' names to the gutter was so stupid that even (old) GM execs wouldn't do it!!! From a personal perspective, I'm glad that the 1996 and subsequent RL models didn't wear the LEGEND name in North America. None of the cars have been worthy of it! But it seemed like an insane business decision considering the reputation and dedicated following that each model had earned in only 10 years! But now model names are the least of their worries...their new "corporate face" (aka- The Beak!) is the auto world's version of Joan Rivers....NEVER stare directly at it and walk away slowly....

The absolute worst with the alpha model designations has to be Lincoln! Their underwhelming products don't help matters either. But who the hell knows the difference between a MKS, MKT, MKX and MKZ....WTF???

I give Mazda some slack for their decision to use mono-numeral designations. At least they had a history of using numeric names (323, 626, 929). Apparently they got lazy and decided that the single digit would suffice!?! I have wondered if conventional, memorable names would have a positive impact on their slower sellling models...the Mazda2 and Mazda6, in particular. Mazda's use of the lower case "i" and "s" to designate sub-models/trim levels is an unforgivable sin, though! =

backy

Yeah, whoever came up with car names like "328ix" should be banned from the automotive world. Those kind of names obviously don't work in the long run.

jeffyscott

Using "i" and "s" is an unforgivable sin...really? Why would you care whether they use that or something like S, SE, LE ? :confuse:

backy

I always wondered what "LE" meant. Limited Edition? Luxury Edition? Laughingstock Edition?? :confuse: