BMW Driving Experience

stever

Talk about why you drive (or wish your drove) a BMW.

uplanderguy

I've never test-driven a BMW--don't like them, see them as an automotive phallic symbol--but I have ridden in exactly one..an early '90's 5-series whose engine self-destructed at 86K miles after religious oil changes since new.

I have driven an '05 Benz, model that cost $95K new, and while very solid, I left like, "$95K for that?".

circlew

I have driven an '05 Benz, model that cost $95K new, and while very solid, I left like, "$95K for that?".

EXACT same response to driving current GM's. I KNOW they are overpriced and then you need to wait for incentives after the models age...like your Malibu. Given the new UAW costs, this is likely to remain GM's pricing model.

Not a bad strategy for a consumer but will definitely keep GM the Incentive King (FLEET QUEEN) as they always overprice their new models and add that MAP like they did with the GTO and G8. I'll wager my local Buick/GMC dealer does at least $3,000 for the Regal GS.

The BMW is right across the road so the last time with the GTO I took one look at the MAP added to the sticker price and ran to the BMW for the 330Xi!!

Drove it 45K miles and only one issue covered under warranty. I agree long term that the Germans tend to have more issues and cost more to repair, however. But the price is well worth it to some as you see BMW are leading at the moment in the Luxo segment.

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy

What $95K GM did you drive?

OK, admittedly a smart-a** question.

gagrice

What $95K GM did you drive?

I test drove a $75k 2007 Escalade. It was nice enough. I also test drove a used 2006 Escalade with 11,000 miles at the same dealer. It was certified used in white Diamond. I could have bought it at $36k if my wife did not think it was ugly. Think about it, one year old with 11k miles and worth less than half the price of a new one. I don't blame that on the UAW completely. It tells me that GM is screwed up from top to bottom and should have been let die and given a proper burial. Not $52 billion in tax dollars.

PS
The top of the line Escalade is selling out the door in San Diego for about $90k today. How many UAW workers can afford $1800 per month vehicle payments? Which shoots down the argument that well paid autoworkers can buy what they build. Even a cheapo Denali will have payments over $1200 per month.

uplanderguy

Although I don't shop Cadillacs, I had never heard of an Escalade costing $75K. Also, I think no one is expecting every UAW worker to afford a car that much...the argument was that Mexican employees often couldn't afford the cheapest model of the company they work for. Big difference....as usual.

andre1969

Although I don't shop Cadillacs, I had never heard of an Escalade costing $75K.

I don't know what they go out the door for, but I just spec'ed out a 2012 Escalade ESV, with every option available (at this price point, 4wd, engine block heater, front license plate bracket, and extra-cost paint were the only options) and I got an MSRP of $87,130, and a TMV of $84,952.

For comparison, it looks like the cheapest Suburban, a 2012 with just RWD, MSRP's for $42,865 and has a TMV of $41,806.

I guess they can discount the Escalade pretty deeply, and still have a lot of profit built in.

gagrice

the argument was that Mexican employees often couldn't afford the cheapest model of the company they work for. Big difference....as usual.

Why is being able to buy what you build important? My step-dad did not own a new car for the first 10 years he and my mom were married. And he was a Union Carpenter. Then it was a 1961 Pontiac Tempest that was in the shop more than on the road.

How many people building yachts can afford them. That is such a lame UAW argument, it is not really worth pursuing. If a UAW worker in 1960 could afford the cars they were building it proves my point they have always been over paid. IT IS MENIAL LABOR. Only worth what the market will bare. Not what the government can subsidize. Quite frankly my GM PU trucks built in Mexico were superior to the ones built here and in Canada.

uplanderguy

I guess I can step back a bit and look at it as just a little bit more than what I want at the moment. Not a criticism, just a declarative statement. There's room for all opinions here on the matter.

I see companies going to Mexico to build as taking advantage of the people there, big-time. Remember that Mexicans are scrambling to come to this country. Canadians aren't (LOL). To me, it's every bit as bad as past abuses by the UAW.

I care about more people working in this country, be it assembling cars or the many, many suppliers automakers use (and nobody utilizes American suppliers more than the Detroit automakers). I would've preferred an HHR to my Cobalt when I bought in '08, but the HHR being built in Mexico was the sole reason I didn't buy it. Why reward them for that, when it's a Cobalt underneath and that car is built 40 miles down the road with me with a very high N.A. parts content? And built by an American company?

lemko

BTW, ever even test drive a BMW?

I have and the ride was like sitting on a hard park bench going over a pot-holed cobblestone street filled with bomb craters. The Buick in no way will have the frequent costly maintenance and repairs and ultimate financial peril the BMW delivers.

lemko

I guess every worker at Rolls-Royce has their own Phantom! I'd like to be a laborer there!

fezo

Nah, go work for Boeing - you could have your own 777!

roadburner

The Buick in no way will have the frequent costly maintenance and repairs and ultimate financial peril the BMW delivers.

You mean like my wife's 121,000 mile 2004 X3? Since the 50,000 mile mark the repair and maintenance costs(including 1 set of four tires) have amounted to $3998- a bit less than six cents per mile, or $83 per month. And note that $427 of that figure represents more frequent oil, ATF, and transfer case changes than BMW calls for. Non-scheduled maintenance required? One set of pads/rotors and a couple of serpentine belts.

Or maybe you're talking about my 1995 318ti track rat- it has nearly 130k miles on it and outside of one set of brakes and several sets of track tires it has only needed a thermostat, a couple of idler pulleys/belts, a brake light switch, and a coolant fitting in the 15 years I've owned it. This year it has already spent six days at the track and will spend two to five more in the next couple of months. As a matter of fact, I took it on a 175 mile work assignment today. At 80 mph it averages 30-32 mpg.

Deutschland Über Alles!!!

imidazol97

>Deutschland Über Alles!!!

Is my German too rusty? Is the "u" umlaut capitalized or not. It doesn't seem right to me. I find it both ways on quick search on the net.

roadburner

I'm not sure either...

fintail

I think echnically for grammar, I do not think it should be, but as a song title it likely often is, probably fine either way.

uplanderguy

Wow, you had more repairs and parts in that BMW than I had in my '97 Cavalier with 129.6K miles that I bought new. I know that's not the conventional wisdom though.

andres3

Wow, you had more repairs and parts in that BMW than I had in my '97 Cavalier with 129.6K miles that I bought new. I know that's not the conventional wisdom though.

His BMW seems to have been driven hard and tracked often. How many of those 129,600 miles were on the track for the Cavalier? :P

I've only spent a handful of days out on the track, and I've noticed which cars seem to break down most often, and it is not the Audi's and BMW's, which are the two most common cars to the events I've gone to.

fintail

Yeah, huge difference between any BMW and a Cav, from complexity to driving enjoyment. Guess what, my mother's Camry needs less repairs than a S65 AMG, can you believe it?

roadburner

Wow, you had more repairs and parts in that BMW than I had in my '97 Cavalier with 129.6K miles that I bought new. I know that's not the conventional wisdom though.

And to think that I could have been driving a Cavalier for the past 15 years; I'm devastated. That said, I'd like to see how your Cavalier is holding up these days. Here's the story on my Club Sport.

And a recent action shot:



Disclaimer:
NO UAW JOBS WERE CREATED BY THE PURCHASE OR USE OF THIS VEHICLE

circlew

Nice ride, RB! Although you have to admit it cost more to maintain the ULG's Cav.

The 2,750 lbs. is key to your performance as you stated. I could only imagine the blown version of the new 2.0 with 240/260 power will come close to your car in the 3'er except that the weight will probably still out-beef your car by more than 500 lbs. The extra power in a stripped version of a 128i w/sport pkg might be the closest thing, assuming the additional weight vs. that significant power boost could be mitigated. Might even come close in MPG as well!

Take that, UAW!

Regards,
OW

andre1969

Wait...that's the hatchback style?! It's more attractive looking than what I remember them being. Maybe it's like a fine wine, and just has to age a bit to be appreciated?

Speaking of vehicular abuse, I've toyed with the idea of putting my '79 New Yorker in the burnout contest they have at the Mopar show in Carlisle. If I blew one of the tires, I could always just throw on the spare (no SureGrip, so it won't spin them both), but with my luck, I'd fry the transmission or blow the engine. And, at the end of the day, that thing needs to get me back home!

roadburner

I've thought of how nice that new engine would work in my ti, but properly installing it would be a nightmare...

roadburner

Maybe it's like a fine wine, and just has to age a bit to be appreciated?

The Club Sports(and 1996-on Sports) got the M Technic(AKA M3) front bumper and side skirts. The Club Sport also wears M3 mirrors.

Speaking of vehicular abuse, I've toyed with the idea of putting my '79 New Yorker in the burnout contest they have at the Mopar show in Carlisle. If I blew one of the tires, I could always just throw on the spare (no SureGrip, so it won't spin them both), but with my luck, I'd fry the transmission or blow the engine. And, at the end of the day, that thing needs to get me back home!

One of my friends competed in One Lap a few years ago. He said that an SRT-10 Ram pickup blew a tire in an impromptu burnout contest. Pretty spectacular, but I know that replacing it wasn't cheap...

circlew

BMW is trying to catch back up to you. No more tears! :shades:

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy

Obviously the "driving enjoyment" quotient is way-different, but I never really wanted my daily car to be a 'hey look at me' status-symbol thing (obviously). I use my old '66 Stude for that...and even in old cars I'm not into status symbols!

Here we are, back at the old 'domestic stuff falls apart' saw, yet when anyone mentions how certain foreign makes aren't known for reliability, the discussion shifts from quality meaning 'driving excitement' totally instead of reliability. For the price, shouldn't one get both?

I have rented many makes of cars. Worst car I had this year so far? Camry with 15K miles. Obviously needed control arm bushings, and the Traction Control light never went out. My coworker thought it was a POS too. But again, the perception is that they're wonderful. I'm always awaiting an epiphany when I drive a media darling like a Camry. I'm usually disappointed.

circlew

You tend to just like transportation in the basic sense. Once you decide to really enjoy driving, try one of the less-dependable Germans...for more than a test drive.

I agree the maintenance/repair costs are higher but if you are a driving enthusiast, there are few US models that can even come close.

Regards,
OW

fintail

I don't know about that, I think the 3er hatch sold more to enthusiasts than posers - driving the odd hatchback in hatchback-hating USA doesn't sound too status conscious to me. Certainly someone like roadburner isn't in it for status, but for driving. They also weren't extremely expensive when new.

Insanely few cars offer absolute driving pleasure and an combination of extreme build/materials quality and high reliability. I don't know if anyone is saying the domestic simply falls apart, but even if it needs less maintenance, the overall package often doesn't feel so nice, certainly was the case during the era of that Cavalier.

Rental cars are a tough call, who knows how they have been abused. I remember a Malibu rental in 2003 that was awful, many systems didn't function at all and the temp light was on all the time, an obvious defect. But I wouldn't judge the car on that. Had a Kia about 4 years ago that was an Enterprise car and was pretty trashed - but I didn't hold it against the car.

uplanderguy

Rental cars are a tough call, who knows how they have been abused. I remember a Malibu rental in 2003 that was awful, many systems didn't function at all and the temp light was on all the time, an obvious defect. But I wouldn't judge the car on that. Had a Kia about 4 years ago that was an Enterprise car and was pretty trashed - but I didn't hold it against the car.

Certainly true, but it was distinctly worse than every car I had the several weeks immediately preceding, and immediately afterwards. I also don't know what kind of 'spirited driving' would make the traction control light stay on, nor wear out the control arm bushings in 15K miles.

uplanderguy

Is the track any worse that 5.5 years on the pothole-ravaged roads of the northern midwest, in all kinds of weather? Just askin'.

andres3

I agree the maintenance/repair costs are higher but if you are a driving enthusiast, there are few US models that can even come close.

While I agree my German car has been more expensive to maintain, I'd argue it is far cheaper to keep running and REPAIRED than a domestic vehicle. At least in my anecdotal experience with a sample size of one each (well, two for the Germans if you count my parents '87 Jetta GLI when I was a kid).

You can take the '87 Jetta and '06 A3 and combine the repair/maintenance costs and they still won't equal the '95 Neon.

2006 A3 = 82,500 miles
87' Jetta kept to just over 101,000 miles before being traded in.
Neon = 65,000 miles at 4th towing and final straw.

I, however, don't include maintenance costs into my "costs" normally as all cars have them. But yes, driving a German car the way it is meant to be driven will require replacing tires on a regular basis $$$$$$. Driving a Toyota like it's a Buick might get you 80,000 miles on the same tires!

andres3

I imagine driving in sub zero temperatures might be hard on a car (at least at start-up).

However, all States have their share of potholes as the gov't would rather waste money on radar dectector dectectors in Virginia than on fixing our roads.

I think Track use is unique and definitely requires a well built and engineered automobile. If one drives for short 20 to 30 minute intervals a few times for a few days on a couple of occassions each year at the track, I'd imagine it is not particularly hard on a "high quality" car. But a low quality car might have issues day 1 lap 1 on the track.

Some have argued my domestic car was a lemon because I've flogged it as a teenager. I've countered that a properly engineered car has no issues being driven any which way it can be (such as on a Track; my A3, or as a teenager, my friends Corolla/Prism.) He flogged his Prism 500% more than my Neon, and my A3 is used probably 150% more spiritedly than the Neon (even though I'm older now), yet we all know which 2 could handle being driven by a real driver.

His Prism was flawless to 100,000 miles despite full throttle acceleration being the normal course of business for it.

If a car can't be driven any which way it lets you without falling apart, then the engineers at Chrysler should have set the rev limiter at 3K, the top speed at 55 MPH, and the price tag at $999.99.

fintail

I bet a nice curb smack could mess up those suspension bits. For the traction control, probable defect...Camrys aint what they used to be

Traction control light on my MB comes on a bit...but that's because of how it is driven :shades:

dieselone

Yeah, huge difference between any BMW and a Cav, from complexity to driving enjoyment.

Until this conversation came up, I've never heard the words Cavalier and BMW in the same sentence before. The spare tire in a BMW probably utilized more engineering resources than a whole Cavalier;)

circlew

Until this conversation came up, I've never heard the words Cavalier and BMW in the same sentence before. The spare tire in a BMW probably utilized more engineering resources than a whole Cavalier;)

ROTFLMAO!! ULG compares his stellar repair costs to the 318ti Club Sport which RB modified for track days. How long do you think a Cavalier would last flogging 5 times per year on a road coarse at 10/10ths of it's capability???? The mod for the Cav would be a tow truck to bring it to the shredding center!!

Not too long and the cost would lend itself to disposal after only 1 year, I would guess. Of course, you could mod the Cav but the mod would be a tow truck to bring it to the shredding center!!

Hardly an apples/apples comparison we all know ULG stands behind. Let's call a spade a spade and an appliance an appliance.

Everything is relative and there are basic efficient transportation and even then, those that costs more to repair in the same class. Corolla vs. Cavalier, for instance.

Value for the Money
Compared with its most natural rival, the sportier-natured Dodge/Plymouth Neon, the refined Cavalier puts comfort and utility ahead of performance and style. All told, however, it doesn't match the refinement of the Toyota Corolla. For a reasonable sum, however, you get a car with dual airbags and antilock braking, even if it isn't quite as much fun to drive as a Neon.

Regards,
OW

dieselone

RB, very nice car. The first BMW I ever got behind the wheel of was a 1990 318i which a older friend of mine bought new a year or so out of college. Wow, that car blew me a away. Having mainly driven domestics I'd never experienced a car that performed so effortlessly. It's something that's hard to describe, but the feel of the car was like nothing that I was accustom to. I think the only word that came out of my mouth after driving it was "wow".

No it wasn't particularly fast, but it was the way it went about its business that thoroughly impressed me. It was extremely solid and everything about the powertrain was precise and smooth. It felt like you couldn't drive it hard enough to break it.

roadburner

RB, very nice car. The first BMW I ever got behind the wheel of was a 1990 318i which a older friend of mine bought new a year or so out of college. Wow, that car blew me a away. Having mainly driven domestics I'd never experienced a car that performed so effortlessly. It's something that's hard to describe, but the feel of the car was like nothing that I was accustom to. I think the only word that came out of my mouth after driving it was "wow".

Thanks for the kind words. The 318i you drove is a bit of a cult car among hard-core BMW enthusiasts. The M42 four cylinder is a very durable unit that will often go 250,000 miles before a rebuild.

uplanderguy

Again, gotta say, the one BMW I was familiar with (5-series) needed a new engine at 86K miles. Now when someone says their (fill in the blank domestic) needed an engine at 86K miles, there are ten posts of derision afterwards. This earlier post resulted in no comments whatsoever about the engine. Why the disparity? Is it all about driving enjoyment on a European car? There's the lack of applies-to-apples here.

dieselone

Again, gotta say, the one BMW I was familiar with (5-series) needed a new engine at 86K miles. Now when someone says their (fill in the blank domestic) needed an engine at 86K miles, there are ten posts of derision afterwards.

Yeah, most domestics with 86k aren't worth the expense of replacing an engine.

If your going to compare a bmw or MB with domestics, it really needs to be limited to Lincoln and Cadillac. Comparing cheap Chevys and Fords to expensive BMWs and MBs is ridiculous. I don't think many of us would compare a Malibu or Cruze to a CTS.

I don't know how good or bad BMW's are regarding reliability. The few people I know that have them like them. I've always really liked driving them, but have never bought one. Maybe someday.

stever

Hot topic and not sure if there's a great place for you guys to post, unless y'all are used to posting over in Luxury Sedans.

Maybe we need a BMW Driving Experience discussion (or maybe Bimmer vs the World?).

gagrice

I think it is kind of relative to talk about BMW or any other vehicle that is built in the USA. I got to debating some of Rocky's friends on Facebook. They are anti anything but UAW built. They would rather have US buy a car with 40% US content assembled by UAW factory, than a Toyota, Honda or BMW with much higher US content. It is that mentality that makes me want to steer clear of anything UAW built. They have in their minds that UAW members are more deserving of a job, than say a VW worker in TN. They have the misguided thinking that in this global society, all the money GM makes stays within our borders. After several days of beating my head against the wall I opted out. It was 4-5 totally Rah Rah UAW supporters against superior logic. Of course when I pointed out the Secretary of Labor had just bought an Equinox built in Canada they all went into overload.

Obama Labor Boss Buys Canadian-Built Car

http://www.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2011/08/31/obama-labor-b- oss-buys-canadian-built-car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qek5O9TaDhM

I personally feel my 85% US content Sequoia built in Princeton Indiana is helping more US workers than buying an Equinox built in Canada.

dieselone

They have in their minds that UAW members are more deserving of a job, than say a VW worker in TN.

yeah, I have issues with that line of thought too.

uplanderguy

In 2009, a Sequoia was 80% N.A. content. You say 85%. Did it go up since then, or is that 'whoops'?

I prefer when most all American cars were built here, but competition has changed that, sadly (IMO). Your Sequoia IMO is definitely better than having been built in Japan, but Toyota is still clearly a Japanese company, as evidenced by Toyota of America's president's 'deer in the headlights' look when asked about recall policies...he completely deferred to Mr. Toyoda and said decisions came from the motherland.

This board is so full of absolutes. Not all Toyotas are made here, and not all Detroit brands are made in Mexico or Canada. My preference is an American company which builds in America using a high NA parts content. It is possible to find such a product.

roadburner

Again, gotta say, the one BMW I was familiar with (5-series) needed a new engine at 86K miles.

OK, that's one data point. One BMW, one engine. I've owned nine and never had an engine failure.

Now when someone says their (fill in the blank domestic) needed an engine at 86K miles, there are ten posts of derision afterwards.

Not from me. That said, if you are talking about a number of failures -all with the same engine and failure mode- that's a different issue entirely.

Is it all about driving enjoyment on a European car?

That's why I've driven BMWs almost exclusively since 1983- but if they were unreliable or expensive to run I would look elsewhere. Life is too short to drive boring cars.

There's the lack of applies-to-apples here.

You mean like when a FWD mass-market economy car is compared to a BMW? With a straight face?

uplanderguy

That's one out of one I knew about...100%--same as guys here say their one (fill-in-the-blank) was crappy.

gagrice

In 2009, a Sequoia was 80% N.A. content.

Mine is a 2007 which it was my understanding contained 85%. Which can be deceptive as they include Canada, because it is also America, along with Mexico. So your guess is as good as mine as to the actual US content.

fintail

Aren't we supposed to forgive the old failures of carmakers? That was an instance of like what, a 20 year old car?

Engine failing at 86K can easily be an owner issue over a car issue.

uplanderguy

Religious oil changes at the dealer...the owners are friends of mine.

I guess the thing that is so exhausting for me on this forum is (and I know, if it's so exhausting, why continue to post? Good point.) is that all kinds of excuses are made for foreign lapses of quality, yet with the domestics it's always like "Aha! Told ya so!".

I think I'll hang around the old car forums a bit more.

fintail

Bought new, all records from birth? We are sure the dealer replaced the oil pain drain plug or the owner didn't put coolant in the oil filler? :shades:

At 86K there is likely an extenuating circumstance no matter the origin of the engine, unless it is a known defect like Honda transmissions or GM Dexcool or Ford head gaskets etc. I am not aware of any BMW of that era having a rep for a high rate of failure at that mileage.

uplanderguy

Yep, bought new at Dave Walter BMW in Akron, OH.

uplanderguy

I don't think many of us would compare a Malibu or Cruze to a CTS.

The wife and I both think our metallic black Malibu is as handsome as a CTS...gets repeated just about every time we pass one.