BMWs - Still The Ultimate Driving Machines?

hpmctorque

From what I've read, most current BMW models, with the exception of the 3-Series and 1-Series, have gotten heavy and bloated. Their driving dynamics are no longer exceptional. The latest 5, 6, and 7-Series, and BMW SUVS seem to be rather ordinary for their respective segments. Yet BMW sales continue to increase, earnings are hitting new highs, and the brand enjoys a stellar reputation.

As for the future, the next 1-Series will be FWD, which BMW has always resisted. Would you buy a FWD BMW?

What's happening?

lemko

Is BMW trying to be Lexus?

hpmctorque

Since some have said that Lexus tried to be a better Buick, maybe BMW is trying to be the ultimate Buick.

au1994

One man's opinion who in the interest of full disclosure is a BMW driver...

1 Series: Yes. Probably harkens back to the 'good ol' days' of BMW more than anything in the current line up. If it goes FWD that is blashphemy.

3 Series: Yes. But it seems to get a little softer with each iteration.

5 Series: Outside of the M5, no.

6 Series: This was always meant to be a Grand Tourer so I think it executes that pretty well.

7 Series: No. Just a big luxury car at this point. Probably more driver oriented than say an LS but thats not too difficult.

hpmctorque

I've only owned one BMW, an E30, so I don't presume to have first hand knowledge of the new models you listed. However, your comments square with what I've read. Heck, reports suggest that even the Z4 sports car has gone soft, or, at least, softer. If this is true for the models mentioned, it calls the veracity of "The ultimate Driving Machine" tag line into question.

BMW used to differentiate itself with superior driving dynamics, but this appears to be significantly less true today. However, it still charges a premium price. I'm wondering whether the company will continue to be the leading world luxury brand in sales. If it does, it means that most premium car buyers are more interested in luxury and features than performance and an outstanding driving experience. I'm thinking that a lot of brands deliver premium features, luxury and comfort at a lesser price, and lower cost of ownership. What am I missing?

stever

Some say they lost "it" (as did Porsche) when they started building SUVs.

That argument kind of begs the question of what they heck they were thinking with their version of the Isetta then. :shades:

fintail

They weren't the "ultimate driving machine" in the 50s.

7er is little more than a S/LS competitor now, that's true. 6er has remained true, still something mostly for women with large sunglasses, and trust funders. 5 has been softened bloated up and toned down since the E39 - an E class from Bavaria now. 3er offers debatable value unless in a sweetheart year end lease and the right options. 1er it is then, but we don't get the cool dorky 3 and 5 door models seen elsewhere.

lemko

Remember the "Baroque Angel?"

hpmctorque

I'd give them a pass on SUVs and the Isettas. Insofar as SUVs are concerned, they're functional transportation modules, and I wouldn't expect those adorned with a propeller to be exceptionally fun to drive. I'd expect them to be competitive, which they probably are. As for the Isetta clones, well, that was a different time. Survival was a primary goal, and these cute runabouts served as place holders for what came next.

Although the porky BMW cruisers don't happen to appeal to me, I give the company lots of credit for offering what the marketplace wants. To me, though, they've forfeited the right to call themselves the ultimate driving machines. I mean, do they offer a more ultimate experience than, say, Ferrari. or, arguably, the Corvette?

roadburner

The only BMWs that currently interest me are 1ers, 3ers, and M cars. We currently have an F10 528i service loaner and I absolutely despise the steering- devoid of feel, it belongs in a Buick or Lexus. It's also quite porky. My 1975 2002 and 1995 Club Sport 3 Series are exponentially more fun to drive than the bloated 5er. As for SUVs, my wife's 2004 X3 does a remarkably good impression of a 3 Series, and by doing so makes it a more involving drive than most any other non-M or non-SRT SUV.

fezo

I was waiting for you to pop in here.

Just what I expected to hear. It's a shame that they've dumb downed the 5.

hpmctorque

Good to know about the X3.

fintail

Those probably were less than sporty...but at the same time, they were used as police cars, so maybe they are fast and pretty.

Speaking of police cars, not long ago there were many BMW police cars in the UK, which kind of put the final nail in the Germanification of British industry, along with Morgan using BMW engines. I guess BMW engines are still pretty nice, but some of the cars mated to them aren't what the brand once represented.

dino001

All cars get bigger, heavier and more bloated with each new generation. It is true across the board. It is mostly comfort features that require power and add weight. Also raging regulators requiring more and more stuff, from multiple airbags, to stability control systems, to tire pressure monitors. All those things are nice to have, but you need both space to fit them and engine power to carry them around.
It seems the only true ultimate driving machines left are Lotus and couple of other exotics, which often don't even have a radio. Their approach is not what you want, but what you can do without. The rest is just marketing to make us believe we are better drivers than we really are. I'm not buying Lotus either

stever

"Stick shift-loving M owners should prepare for bad news, because BMW will only engineer the next M5 or M6 with double-clutch transmissions.

M's head of engineering, Albert Biermann, admitted this week that there were no plans to fit three pedals in the next-generation M6 and M5 because the order rate was too low to justify the added work."

BMW Official Says No Manual Transmission for Next M5 (Inside Line)

hpmctorque

Oh, well, I wasn't going to buy an M5 anyway.

corvette

The E60 M5 was never supposed to have a manual, and if memory serves, BMW relented and retrofitted one after the buff books in the US pitched a hissy fit. Shockingly, they knew what they were doing to begin with, and the retrofitted manual was panned by the same buff books as being a mistake.

Very sad about the F10 5-series. I had gone to their website and configured one with similar options as my 540 as a "if I won the lottery" car, but it sounds like I'd do just as well to dream about a Lexus GS.

stever

"The online sales option is aimed at a generation of drivers used to making daily purchases over the Internet, and will be an extension of the car configuration that most automakers offer customers to view models with desired options such as interior colors, seat materials and roof styles."

BMW to sell luxury cars for less online (Detroit News)

andys120

-It's true that BMW plans to introduce a FWD 1 Series. Like most of you I think it's a bad idea but according to my reading the cars we know as Oners will be renamed the Two-Series and will retain rear drive.

-I seriously doubt that any enthusiast ever bought a Bimmer actually thinking it was the "Ultimate Driving Machine." That's just one of those meaningless B.S. ad slogans like "Chevy runs deep" . Probably everyone has their own idea of what the ultimate driver would be.

-I own two BMWs from the very early '00s (an E39 and an E46 Cabrio) or, as I like to call it, the Pischetsreider/Reitzle Era, when driving characteristics seemingly had higher priorities. I have noted the increases in weight and complication of BMW cars but this has happened to nearly every make.

It so happens I've received an invite from BMWNA to test drive a new F30. It's ironic that my cars have a number of features lacking in the current designs, among them are: hydraulic steering, a spare tire, a temp gauge, an oil dipstick and tires that don't cost twice as much to replace.

The trade off would be increased safety and performance but I'm not sure it's worth what we're losing. In any case, if I have the opportunity I'll drive the wee out of the new one (I assume a 328i or 328xi) and give you my impressions.

roadburner

My wife just picked up a CPO 2009 328i. As I wrote in another thread:

My wife loves it; handling, power, ride, interior- everything. She has noted that the Crimson Red paint and "facelifted" styling has many of her friends think that it is much sportier than it actually is.
Me? I could see having one for a daily driver if it had a stick and the Sport Package. That said, the 17" wheels and summer performance Conti tires give it a decent amount of grip and it is a very pleasant car to drive. In any event, I certainly prefer it to the new 528i loaner we had a while back. I do wish it had Xenons, but I have a set of Philips X-Treme Power bulbs to upgrade the OEM bulbs- so we'll see if that improves the adequate stock lighting.

Comparing the E90 to my F10 528i loaner it was no contest; I much prefer the naturally aspirated inline six and the hydraulic steering assist. I also like the 3ers relatively compact dimensions and sub-3500 pound curb weight. The RFT Contis will be pitched for conventional tires as soon as they wear out. Aside from that, I only pine for a dipstick and an oil or water temperature gauge(the F30 does have an oil temperature gauge).

andys120

(the F30 does have an oil temperature gauge).

A gauge for oil temp but not for water temp? That's very odd IMO. It seems to me a water temp gauge would give quicker warning of potential problems.

Having the water temp readout has saved me on more than one occasion over the years.

hpmctorque

While the the 3-Series and the (ugy) 1-Series are regarded as great drivers cars, the new 5ers and 7ers have been called cruisers. The Avalon (or the TL or M) are, arguably, also cruisers, but cost much less than the larger Bimmers. Are the 5 and 7 better cruisers than their Japanese counterparts? If so, are they worth the extra money?

corvette

I haven't driven the current models of any of those, but I'm sure that even the current "numb" 5-series will feel more connected to the road than an Avalon--they're very different animals.

Having owned both an E90 3-series and (presently) an E39 5-series, the old E39 feels heavier and less precise, and although the steering doesn't inspire as much confidence, it seems to have a similar level of grip in the corners (both vehicles had/have the sport package).

hpmctorque

Thanks for your response. What seems to happen is that the difference in driving experience, from a driver's car perspective, diminishes between BMW and more ordinary counterparts as size and weight increase.

I wouldn't expect the Avalon to have the same level of grip as a 5-Series with sport package, but I haven't read a comparison test that suggests that the latest generation 5er has more grip than the SH-AWD equipped Acura TL or Infiniti M.

roadburner

Well, it's not just a question of grip. What I particularly like about BMWs is their ability to let the driver know exactly what is going on at the contact patches. My experience behind the wheel of the F10 5er(non-Sport 528i and 535i) reveals that this ability is severely muted in the latest iteration of the 5er. The primary offender is the numb power steering. Still, if forced to buy a big sedan(a choice I hope I never have to make) I'd probably give the nod to the F10, if only for the fact that it is RWD.

stever

Rumors of good leasing deals in the US have been floating around (partly to try to keep ahead of Mercedes sales numbers).

Luxury carmaker BMW starts to feel industry pain (Reuters)

stever

"2012 profit targets look secure, but next year looks questionable.

Europe, now officially in recession after a second quarter in a row of negative growth, will make it more difficult to make money. China and the U.S. will not be enough to keep overall profits improving.

Still, BMW, and upmarket compatriots like Mercedes and VW’s Audi, are doing better than most of Europe’s mass car manufacturers, which are losing huge amounts of money with no end in sight."

U.S., and China, will buttress BMW in 2012, while Europe sputters (Detroit News)

stever

"Brisk sales this year also come from a rebound in the luxury auto market as well-heeled buyers who were nervous about the economy pull the trigger on car purchases delayed for several years.

Adding to the frenzy is the heavy advertising and attractive year-end specials offered by BMW and Mercedes-Benz as they duke it out for bragging rights as the nation's top luxury brand."

Luxury car sales on track to have best month in years (LA Times)

hpmctorque

"Oh, just watch how skillfully I maneuver my ultimate driving machine!"

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-bmw-driver-will-have-you-yelling-at-the-screen-for-four-minutes-2014-12-08

fintail

I'll make one or two silent (as not to offend the oversensitive) demographic guesses about the driver.

Here's another

hpmctorque

The following is Edmunds' summary of the 2015 5-Series...

"Review of the 2015 BMW 5 Series

The 2015 BMW 5 Series is a comfortable, technologically advanced midsize luxury sedan with a very appealing set of skills.

Safety | Reliability

Pros
Superb powertrains; impressive fuel economy in most forms; elegant interior packed with high-tech features; smooth, quiet ride; advanced safety features.

Cons
Ho-hum handling; relatively small trunk; intrusive auto stop-start system.

What's New for 2015
A sport steering wheel is now standard on all models, as are LED foglights. Minor changes in optional equipment include an enhanced Executive package (now with a leather dashboard) and the removal of the Modern Line package."

Should the ultimate driving machine feature ho-hum handling and an intrusive auto stop-start system? BMW has gone soft, yet sales continue to set new records. I don't get it. What gives? My impression is that BMWs may still be good cars and SUVs, maybe even excellent ones, but the tag line "The Ultimate Driving Machine" no longer applies. If I want ho-hum handling, I'll buy a Camry. Oh wait, Toyota has tightened up the handling on the 2015 Camry, so maybe it's not so ho-hum anymore.

For the past few years, each new generation has moved away from being drivers' cars, and closer to being mainstream luxury cruisers.

Do you agree that "The Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line is deceptive, when applied to most newer BMWs, or disagree?

roadburner

I agree 100% Only a very few new BMWs are even remotely entertaining to drive. Munich is abandoning the sport sedan market just as Cadillac and Lexus are embracing it. I know more than a few long time BMW CCA members who now own a CTS-V, Boss 302, or C6 Corvette because they could not find a BMW that drove the way they expected it to. As for me, I've had a BMW in the garage continuously since 1983; 10 in all and four currently in the family. I doubt that I'll ever buy another new or CPO Bimmer again. In fact an E92 M3 is about as new as I would go.
Now BMW panders to the imbeciles like the "enthusiast" I ran into at our local dealer's F30 intro- who told me that he liked automatics because "he wanted a car that he could drive without having to do anything."

roadburner

Funny thing; I remembered a statement I made in my 2007 article on the international launch of the E93. While I had nothing but praise for the car's handling, I went on to write that the performance of the car was a moot point as BMW would sell as many as they could build- even if the car had the driving dynamics of a Chevrolet Cobalt.
It sure looks like BMW is beginning to adopt that marketing strategy....

andys120

hpmctorque said:

Do you agree that "The Ultimate Driving Machine" tag line is deceptive, when applied to most newer BMWs, or disagree?

I'm BMW owner and long time fan but I'm also a retired advertising professional and IMO "The ultimate driving machine" slogan was never anything more than a bit adverting B.S. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of automobile dynamics knows that to maximize the driving dynamics of a car you have to place the heaviest part (the motor) in the middle of the car. If you're really looking for the "ultimate" you want the engine behind the driver (but not at the very rear as in a 911 or a Beetle).

At this time BMW offers no mid-engined vehicles to the public and hasn't since the M1 of the 1980s. I have driven a few late model Bimmers and they did not impress me as being particularly responsive compared to the 15 y/o BMWs I am familiar with.

All that said I'm not sure many of BMWs competitors offer superior driving dynamics either and I myself plan to have a good look at the new 2-Series , especially the M235 which seem to offer a return to the driving characteristics we loved in the 20th Century cars.

roadburner

I do like the M235i, but optioned with just leather, the Cold Weather Package, H/K audio, and port-installed locking diff I'm looking at over $48,500. Ridiculous...

andys120

roadburner said:

I do like the M235i, but optioned with just leather, the Cold Weather Package, H/K audio, and port-installed locking diff I'm looking at over $48,500. Ridiculous...

I feel you buddy. The price of new BMWs has always been outlandish, that's why I buy them used. The depreciation curve on them is pretty steep. My 528i stickered for $47K in 2000 but I got it for $26K in '04 w 44,ooo miles (lease return).

Wait a couple of years and you'll get that M235 for the price of a new Accord; I know which I'd rather have.

fintail

Speaking from a fan of the Swabian competition, the only thing that might make me choose a late model BMW is HUD. Otherwise, I don't know how much more boring a MB is on the road anymore, as BMW has lux'd it up and became a little soft. And as MB is introducing HUD on new models, that attraction might be slipping.

The "ultimate" belief has a lot of equity, so BMW can still run with it for awhile - and as the brand has a brash image, that appeals to some. It's not over.

hpmctorque

roadburner said:

Funny thing; I remembered a statement I made in my 2007 article on the international launch of the E93. While I had nothing but praise for the car's handling, I went on to write that the performance of the car was a moot point as BMW would sell as many as they could build- even if the car had the driving dynamics of a Chevrolet Cobalt.
It sure looks like BMW is beginning to adopt that marketing strategy....

Speaking of Cobalts, there are two Chevys (ies?) that I think are competitive with higher performance BMWs, but cost less; the Corvette C-7 and Impala SS, and arguably a third, the Camaro. The SS and the Camaro are too porky for my tastes, but from what I've read GM will fix that in the next generation, as it did with the Cadillac ATS and CTS.

The new Mustang is also impressive. Again, for less money than a performance comparable BMW 2 or 3-Series, and lower upkeep. The main thing you give up with domestics are prestige, in my opinion.

Click on to a Impala SS review below...

http://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2015-chevrolet-ss-review-notes

roadburner

No doubt, Chevrolet and Ford are nibbling at the south end of BMWs market. Me, I'm a bit of a redneck at heart and find myself drawn to the Challenger SRT- not as adept on the track as the ///M BMWs, but infinitely more personality...
-

hpmctorque

roadburner said:

No doubt, Chevrolet and Ford are nibbling at the south end of BMWs market. Me, I'm a bit of a redneck at heart and find myself drawn to the Challenger SRT- not as adept on the track as the ///M BMWs, but infinitely more personality...
-

The Challenger SRT is a really nice looking car, with strong performance, but it's even larger and heavier than the Camaro, if only by a little. I look for the next generation Challenger to remedy these deficiencies.

The V6 Challenger would be a nice cruiser, with adequate performance for me. The V8 sound would be hard to give up, however.

roadburner

I rented a V6 for the weekend last summer. Not a slug, but I'd have to get the V8.

hpmctorque

Given its price and positioning in the BMW product lineup, the BMW 7-Series should be aspirational. However, Consumer Reports criticizes it for being “a ponderous, technology-laden vehicle with ungainly handling.” It's included in the publication’s lists of lowest-scoring cars, worst overall values and most expensive operating costs in its class. In addition, it also gets a rock-bottom resale value rating from ALG, a company that predicts residual values, and a below average performance score from J.D. Power. My source for this information is an article in Forbes magazine entitled "15 New Cars To Avoid."

Ponderous and ungainly handling don't equate with "Ultimate Driving Machine."

Hopefully, BMW will address these deficiencies with the next generation 7.

roadburner

I spent a week with a 2008 Alpina B7 and absolutely loved it. I haven't driven the current F01 7er but that assessment doesn't surprise me; the F10 5er is softer and less adept than the 7ers of the past.

fintail

The new 7er has been leaked and it looks like a super-sized F10. I don't know if the S-class is worried at all. Most interesting thing might be the laser lights, which due to NHTSA/DOT idiocy, will probably not be seen in Murka.

au1994

When my lease matures on the 335i it will likely be my last new BMW. It replaced an E92 which I thought fantastic. In the interim I bought my ZHP. The contrast between them is remarkable and I cannot believe how much the series has grown and softened. But, supply and demand rules the market and BMW will quite simply keep producing what people are buying.

The 2 Series is as close to 3's of old it appears but that is just a little to small for my tastes but an otherwise great car in my (and others) opinion. If they bring out a sedan I'd probably give it a look. Given the new numbering convention at BMW, I believe it would technically be a 1 series.

I've got a year to decide what my replacement will be but am leaning towards a small CUV...GLK, Q5 etc. Likely not the X3 as it just leaves me cold and when optioned to a comparable Q5 is quite expensive. I'd like to save a few bucks on this lease so I have more cash flow to keep my ZHP in tip top shape.

I watch the monthly sales numbers as many of you do here and it doesn't seem that anything BMW does or does not do impacts sales too much. Month by month BMW, Audi and MB seem to trade a few market share points here and there but all are selling almost all models pretty well.

andys120

The 2 Series is as close to 3's of old it appears but that is just a little to small for my tastes but an otherwise great car in my (and others) opinion

I've seen the M235i and to me it looks close to the size of your 330Cic.

au1994

andys120 said:

The 2 Series is as close to 3's of old it appears but that is just a little to small for my tastes but an otherwise great car in my (and others) opinion

I've seen the M235i and to me it looks close to the size of your 330Cic.

Yes, its pretty close in size. I should have been more clear, the 2 series is too small for me to consider it as a daily driver. I don't DD my ZHP, its the weekend/sunny day cruiser. Although with good luck in the spring and summer I can sometimes string 4 or 5 of those in a row

I prefer to have something a little roomier in the stable as well.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

The new 7er has been leaked and it looks like a super-sized F10. I don't know if the S-class is worried at all. Most interesting thing might be the laser lights, which due to NHTSA/DOT idiocy, will probably not be seen in Murka.

Maybe the 9er will be aimed more directly against the S-class.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150107/BLOG06/150109941/is-bmw-9-series-a-step-closer?profile=1115

hpmctorque

Will BMWs change their tag line to "The Ultimate Riding Machines" when its cars become autonomous?

hpmctorque

Is the Ford Fusion Sport a game changer? I say yes, for those who value performance over prestige. That could be a significant market niche, and prompt the no-longer-so-ultimate-driving-machine to recalibrate. The 2016 D-3 models suggest that Detroit has regained it mojo.

hpmctorque

Is the Fusion Sport Sedan a game changer? I say yes, for those who place value over prestige. That could be a considerable market niche. The 2016 D-3 models suggest to me that Detroit has gotten its mojo back.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160609/OEM04/160609822/ford-challenges-german-luxury-cars-with-fusion-sport-sedan