2013 Honda Civic

backy

The 2013 Civic is supposed to be a re-design. Amazing considering the 2012 Civic was a re-design, but apparently Honda took the criticism of the 2012 model to heart and went to work.

Here's what I'd like to see in the 2013 Civic:

* Classier interior, with higher-grade materials--at least comparable to others in the class such as the Elantra and Cruze
* Crisper steering--more like Civics of the past
* 6-speed transmissions (esp. the MT, for lower revs on the highway)
* Improved sound isolation--a long-time problem for Honda

Would also be great if Honda would offer a 4-door Civic hatch in the USA, but I don't expect that will happen for 2013. I'd prefer to buy a hatch when I get my next car next year, but if the 2013 Civic is a standout, I might consider it anyway.

zeeboy

A quieter Civic would be sweet!

Thought the redesign was getting direct fuel injection & a CVT.

Looks like the woefully outdated Corolla still isn't get redesigned for 2013.

j06

Just found an article on updates to 2013 Civic.

- Better interior material.
- Exterior will tweaked to look sportier.
- The hatchback version will only debut with 2016 redesign.

So you will see a sportier version with better interior materials

tomcatt630

It's not being "overhauled", but tweaked to please critics. There will still be a mid-cycle update, to by '15.

Corolla will look like an Olds Cutlass Ciera, if not already.

zeeboy

CIVIC: According to resources, the CEO of Honda company, Mr. Takabobu has taken the results of 2012 style very seriously and without spending much time has declared that organization is going to upgrade the automobile completely. According to firm’s Vice Chief executive of revenue in USA Mr. John Mendel “the organization is not only going to produce a better car but a great car”.

Corolla: The popular Toyota Corolla enters the 2013 model year with a few option package changes.

demetrios999

Given that the EX model does not have more horsepower than the LX or DX (unlike in previous generations), the Si's 6 speed manual would be a nice gesture.

Also, the EX-L (leather interior) should be available in both manual and auto, with or without nav.

steevo

It would also be nice to have some modern technology interior conveniences in a model other than the EX-L/Nav. Satellite radio and Bluetooth connectivity should be available in all trims.

Sandman6472

Just pulled up to a light and in the next lane to my left was a brand new 2013 black Civic...was one car length back so I only saw like a 1/2 view but from the bolt on wheel covers, it looked like a LX model. Very nice!! The tail lights made me think lexus at first before I zeroed into the small Civic in the trunk lid. There's a nice chrome strip on the trunk...shoulda whipped my camera out but didn't. Once the light changed...it made a huey and was gone but damn...sure looked nice from the rear! It had a temp plate and I swear I thought of Lexus first. Tail end looks better than the ILX which I really like.
Am very impressed from what I saw...very impressed!!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

sda

As an owner of the same generation, I had our '09 EX in for service yesterday. A new '13 EX was in the showroom. While the '12 was not a bad car, the changes made on the '13 were subtle but noticeable. I understand that the car is quieter, handles and rides better, super. I gave the car a good going over. I like the soft touch and chrome additions in the interior. The addition of the hood insulation panel and trunk trim panel inside the trunk lid are nice additions. Our '09 EX has been trouble free and inexpensive to maintain and have been delighted with it overall. Glad to see I can still consider another Civic as a possible future replacement.

robtroxel

Like you we had a flawless 2009 EX-l with Navi that we kept for 42 months. A wonderful car! I like the much needed changes on the 13 Civic as we had given up on the 2012 all together. What I still don't like is that stationary front door's window fixed glass partitions, done I think as a cheap out, they also filled in the extra little triangle windows beyond the front doors and just behind the windshield and mounted speakers there on the inside and plastic fillers on the outside. That is no good as it cuts off some much needed visibility around the thick A pillars!

We ended up trading for the Acura ILX Tech which is based on the Civic but has none of the cheap out on the front door windows ie a full driver and passenger window without the stationary fixed partition. If you are going for a "loaded" Civic, do take a look at the ILX. They are cutting some good deals.

jipster

Discounts on the 2012 Civics are running about $3,000.

What does anyone think the 2013's will go for?

Aside from the dash, I think I would prefer the price of the 2012 over the "improvements" of the 2013. Coming off a Buick, I prefer the softer and more comforatable ride.

Right about visiblity... not that good.

isellhondas

It sounds like Honda was listening. A good thing.

Still, there will always be some who will think the 2012's are somehow better than the 2013's or they will feel that Honda didn't do enough.

The tailights that you like will be knocked by others and some won't like the "nice" chrome strip on the trunk etc.

I used to hear it all. The "horrible" color that a lot of people can't stand is the ONLY color someone else will take.

So much is subjective. I learned to just smile and tune things out.

Sandman6472

Well, I really liked it and would be very happy to own one now as I was really turned off by the '12. A vast improvement!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

tmont562

My 2 cents...I purchased a 2012 Honda Civic Sedan in October 2011. It wasn't my first choice for a vehicle but I won't get into that. I have not yet seen the 2013 except for photos here. I absolutely agree with isellhondas that "so much is subjective." I would like to have some of the new features of the "refreshed" Civic, such as better safety, quieter, and smoother ride (not that mine rides bumpy), but I do not like all the silver trim. I think it looks cheap. Also, I prefer the body style of the 2012. And I still don't like the double dashboard and all the digital displays; looks ridiculous. So there you go. In a few years, I hope to move up to an "adult" vehicle, such as a Lexus or Subaru SUV, which I should have purchased in the first place. BTW, I'm a "young" mid-age woman, who often forgets she's middle-aged. I think the 2013 Civic will be popular with the younger crowd.

jipster

Safety and quieter ride are probably marginal over the 2012.

I believe the 2012 has a smoother ride, from what I've read. The 2013 suppose to give better handling... sacrificing the smoother ride.

Like the double dash, looks pretty cool.

drivefun

This is a little more elaborate comment I placed on the 2013 Civic Ex review.

I was suppose to purchase a compact care for commuting back in 2012, as I'm passing my '99 Civic to my college bound daughter in a couple of years. After checking out the 2012 Civic, I was totally disgusted. My impression then was 'Honda is going down hill'. Time to defect, and that's a petty strong statement from a family of Honda owners.

I started researching Elantra GT, because it has good MPG, and a hatchback. Nice as it may be, after I read that its MPG rating was downgraded, I have the gut feeling Hyundai wasn't being upfront with the consumers. Next I tested the Maxda CX-5, I absolutely love on first sight. When I took it for a spin in the country back road, I was tailgated by another SUV, I thought I was able to pull away from it, but I had to almost floor the gas pedal at the same time down shift to make the speedometer move. I was not even in hilly terrirtory. It feels as if Mazda has geared the CX-5 for fuel economy and I thought it was under powered. I do like the blind spot indicator in the Touring version and though this should be standard equipment in every car in future.

The Ford Focus SE Hatchback was the next vehicle I researched and test drove. I was pretty impressed by the interior of the Focus, with big screen display. The interior was comfortable, but the rear is on the tight side. During the test drive, I accidentally took a wrong turn into a residential area up the hill. After I did an about turn, and on the way down I thought the brake was not functioning (there were 3 of us including me), as it failed to grip immediately. At the last possible moment the brakes caught on, and I almost went pass the stop sign into the main traffic. The handling of the Focus is good on straight roads, when I took a turn to exit the highway and another turn immediately to the dealership, I had the sense it's not controllable.

I reluctantly went to the Honda dealership, after reading write ups on some of the improvements Honda had made to the 2013 Civic. I'm not sure if it drives like a full size sedan, but it was a pleasant experience with little to no road noise transferred into the cabin. Also, the new Civic seem a lot more responsive than the other vehicles I've test-driven. It also has more refined materials in the entire cabin compared to the 2012 model, and that was when my impression of the Civic started changing. Yes, it doesn't take much being a long-time Honda owner.

My conclusion: The Civic is back in the game of top compact cars to consider. The Ford Focus and Hyundai Elantra are serious contenders. But since Honda is willing to make such a drastic on the positive side to benefit their customers in such an unbelievably short time frame , I am willing to consider it in my purchasing decision again.

On a separate note, I am now eagerly awaiting the 2014 Honda Fit (Novo) to downsize my V6 sedan. I read it is a complete redesign of the Fit,and called the Urban SUV, with targeted 40 MPG starting at $20k. I saw pictures and videos of it , and it tells me 'Honda gets it'.

Consumers will not tolerate paying top dollars for 2nd grade products. The danger of us migrating to another manufacturer is great with many nice and redesigned vehicles in the market. As BMW and Mercedes' ongoing effort in penetrating the sub $30k market looms, Honda should unceasingly continue to push the envelop on its line of vehicles.

drivefun

If you are alright with the road noise and the somewhat spartan interior in the 2012 Civic, then you just saved yourself some money.

Another reason for going for 2012 Civic is if your situation requires you to have a car for a short term (6 to 18 months), or if you're in the habit of trading in your vehicle.

Since I am using the Civic as a commuter for the next 10 years, I'm going for the 2013.

Most importantly, DriveFun!

jipster

People will be complaining of honda "road noise" till the end of time. No matter how well honda insulates its cars. Coming off a Buick regal, I thought the 2012 civic to be surprisingly quiet. Would like to see some test results comparing the 2012 and 2013 noise levels. Bet there's not much difference. The media and power of suggestion. Interior space the same. If anything they need to improve stereo speakers

drivefun

The main feature differences between 2012 & 2013 are:
* Reduced road noise
* Back up camera
* Nicer cabin material

However, I can also see why the 2012 Civic appeals to you with the significant cost savings and coming from Buick Regal. You would have mad a smart purchase saving some money in making an upgrade. I would have done the same given similar circumstance.

Sandman6472

Great post here but I'd like to add a comment. I've recently gotten a job as a vehicle transporter and we do rental cars. I've driven numerous new Elantra's and Foci...the Focus I drove yesterday had 6 miles when I drove off. I prefer the Elantra over the Focus but not by much. I think the hyundai accelerates better and has the better brakes but I've found the Focus brakes to be fine honestly. Maybe it was the particular unit you drove with the weird brake feel. Both are good cars and being a current Civic owner, I think the bar has been raised significantly by the other guys. Since I've not tested a 2013 Civic, I won't comment until I do get the opportunity. Prefer the dash lighting in the Elantra hands down as the Focus is a bit bland in this department and I found the radio controls hard to use yesterday when I had my homemade cd in...it wouldn't list the artists but that could be because i didn't have time to fiddle with the menu too much. And also my ipod wouldn't sync to the radio but that could be because I had the wrong cord...am off to Radio Shack later with the ipod to see about purchasing the correct cable so I can use it in any vehicle. Love when I get a vehicle with Sirius/XM but that doesn't always happen. Personally, if I didn't have so many cd's already, I'd definitely want SAT radio in my next vehicle...I think it's that good!

Being an import buyer since the mid '70's, I must admit that the Focus has changed my mind a bit about domestics. The Cruze was not very impressive but I'm waiting on getting to test a Verano to see if this is just brand specific. When I sat in one at the Buick dealer, i was very impressed with the comfort of the seats and all the switchgear. It looks like an upscale vehicle and not one that has economy car roots. Once I drive one I'll know better if this car is a real game changer for me and one that could get me back into a domestic after so long.The wife will be getting a 2014 vehicle definitely but she's not too impressed with any domestic right now, and her 1st car was a Buick...a Skylark which we enjoyed for a few years. I'm planning to get her into a Verano and hopefully after she drives it, she'll decide to put it on her short list as I think Buick and GM did an impressive job here!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

zeeboy

Although it may be improved from the 2012 model it's still not a quiet car and certainly not even remotely close to the Buick.

jmaxe

I drove the Verano this weekend. It was quite nice. Be sure to drive the turbo while you're at it.

Sandman6472

I plan to when I can but so far, there have been no Buicks in any job we've done. When i see one in line, I will make sure to bag it so I can get up close and personal with it. The Cruze left me cold and driving it didn't make me like it any more than before. But sitting in a Verano at the dealer just whetted my appetite to drive one. I'm hoping it'll drive as good as the Elantra does which I think is the new benchmark in this segment honestly. It just marks all the boxes for me and all I've driven thus far are GLS models as that's what the rental company's seem to order...haven't seen a Limited yet though on the key fob on Sunday it did say Limited. If the Verano can best it, then Buick will have a real sleeper on it's hands. I think just the notion that it's a domestic from GM leads folks to not even put it on their short lists which is probably a huge mistake. I think if one wants to buy a compact, they should test every model offered as they just might be passing over a real winner and let their misguided thinking make them make the wrong choice...a real shame. I know when we look for the wife next year, I want her to drive everything out there in her segment just so she makes the most informed decision she can. It's going to be her dd for the next 5 to 6 years ans she needs to be happy and what I say means squat really as I like most offerings out there. All I am needed for is to test drive the final choice to make sure it drives straight and true and then to help in the negotiating process so she makes a fair deal to both sides.

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

jipster

Happened to park my 2012 civic next to a 2013 the other day. Both crimson color. . Mine was still dirty from recent rain, the 2013 looked as though it had just been washed and waxed. I have say the 2013 looked a bit sharper and sportier. It. Was an ex l. Liked the front grill. The trunk area looked larger. Sportier tail lights. The alloy wheels trimmed in black looked pretty cool. Couldn't tell much from interior. Will go to new car show this weekend to investigate further. :shades:

drivefun

I just picked up my 2013 Civic Ex, and it is pretty sweet. This care definitely feels much more solid, and is apparent when you close the door shut. It does not eliminate all road noise, but it is significantly (about 60 - 75%) quieter than the previous version - I'm cool with that. I also like the fact the driver seat can be raised manually.

Regarding the comfort level of the front seats, it is firm and lightly snug the body. The rear seats while they seem deceivingly small in space from the outside, is surprisingly spaciously from the inside. I am 5'7", and leaving my driver seat as is, there's about 3 to 4 inches of knee-to-front-seat room available for me to comfortably cross my legs. Rear seating comes with 3 adjustable head rests, which gives it a luxurious look and feel. Rear storage compartments are ample. The rear center "axle hump" has been significantly "flattened" allowing unexpected room and comfort for the middle rear passenger.

I like the front console, which was designed to be simple. Most of the stereo controls (volume, bass, treble, etc.) and electronic settings (clock, lock features, language, background color, trip meter etc) are located in the iMid tech display. The i-Mid menus are well thought out and easy to navigate and doubles as the screen for the reverse camera.

More to come on the mechanical performance.

demianwulf

My cousin was driving her daughter to work in her brand new 2 week old LX 2013 Honda Civic. They stopped at a 7-11 and she was reversing out the parking lot when she felt no give in the breaks and the car kept rolling backwards. She put the pedal to the medal of the brake and still got no traction or braking action. She used the emergency brake to stop the car before rolling over concrete slabs behind her. The car appears to be braking fine again at the moment after she babied it and drove it home, but refuses to drive it again. Anyone experiencing anything like this? She plans to call the dealer and report the issue.

drivefun

I have no problems with my 2013 Civic breaks, in fact it's a little on the sensitive side. There are certain quirks, like the traction control comes on automatically on start, which means I would have to switch it off manually whenever I don't need it.; and that's pretty much all the time.

Sounds like your vehicle is well within the warranty period. I would bring it back to the dealership immediately and have them fix it under Honda's tab - free of charge.

Sandman6472

Haven't driven one yet but the Elantra and new Sentra are both very smooth drivers...very impressive. Will have to take a test drive to see just how well my '06 Civic has been improved...or not. Like I said, the other previously mentioned vehicles are class leading right now so the new Civic has to be that good to knock them out of their places. Time will tell I suspect but one thing's for sure, my '06 is still such a good vehicle that it's staying in the stable indefinitely! And with just over 37k on the clock, it's a keeper.

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

demianwulf

The car was towed into the dealership, but they could not replicate the brake issue and as such had nothing to repair after doing diagnostics and other checks. My cousin is still freaked out about driving the car with her two young daughters and may even opt to return it at a loss and go with another car manufacturer since there isn't much Honda can do for her in this unique circumstance.

isellhondas

Sounds pretty far fetched to me...sorry.

Even if the master cylinder failed it's a dual cylinder so she still would have had brakes on two wheels.

If there is nothing to repair, there isn't a problem in the first place.

Who knows what really happened?

demianwulf

Far fetched, I'm sure it sounds like it, but it happened never the less. I am writing it down here for posterity, so, maybe, if anyone has a similar problem Honda will take notice. Not that this does anything for my cause, it's not even my car.

drivefun

Sorry to hear that it has not been a 'perfect ride' for you. I'd be interested to know if it's recurring. I too am a new owner of a 2013 Civic (barely 2 weeks), and would like as much feedback on the car before my factory warranty runs out.

Thanks for posting demianwulf!

mcdoniels

I would like everyone to know how American Honda handled the so-called bumper-to-bumper warranty on our brand new vehicle. Here is a chronology: 04/05/13 purchased new Honda Civic. 05/02/13 started hearing a bad grinding sound - obviously brakes. 05/03/13 vehicle taken to Chapman Honda, Tucson, AZ, to diagnose problem. Vehicle kept overnight. Got a call mid morning on 05/04/13 saying nothing wrong with vehicle. During this call we asked the person calling from the service department to please go back and test drive it again because there is something very wrong with vehice. A few hours later we were told that 3 people took the car for a drive and found no problem. We picked the vehicle up from dealer just before closing on 05/04/13. We drove maybe 3-4 miles and the car exhibited the same problem, but it was too late to take it back because the dealer had closed. The car was taken back to the dealer this week and the service manager went on test drive - didn't get out of parking lot when he heard the noise. Car left with the service department and a few hours later got a call that it was some odd problem with the brake pads (metal versus something else) and that American Honda Technical Support had been contacted and they advised to replace the front pads and resurface the front rotators. They refused to replace rotators. We called American Honda and made the complaint that we did not buy a brand new car only to have the rotators resurfaced, pointing out that we will pay the price sooner now when the rotators cannot be resurfaced down the road because the rotators had been turned the maximum time. Sometime down the road we will bear the expense to replace the rotators sooner than a vehicle that did not have them resurfaced at 3 1/2 weeks old. Who would want a brand new car with resurfaced rotators? James (he refused to provide his last name) from American Honda called back to advise that American Honda refused to replace the rotators. PLEASE TELL ME IF THERE IS ANYONE THAT WOULD BE OKAY WITH WHAT AMERICAN HONDA IS DOING? P.S. Our car is still at the service department.

jipster

Man, HondA replaces transmissions 50,000 miles out of warranty. Unless you drove at Daytona speedway,Honda should give you new rotors.

suv800

Any warranty service done at a dealer for over 24 hours, the dealer has to have a free loaner for you to drive until your vehicle is fixed. That's Honda's service policy.

drivefun

Having put 2,700 plus miles I now have a little more to add

Suggested Improvements:

• When I turn on my headlights, the dashboard display dims a lot. Honda needs to fix this since it becomes hard to read the display at night.
  

• Expand the pass-through area from trunk to back seat for greater utility.

• Remove auto traction control. This is really annoying to have to turn it off every time I drive, it's an unnecessary gas drain most of the time

• Noticeable amount of blind spot, with several close calls. I'd strongly suggest some form of early warning detection of rear approaching cars like what the Mazda CX-5 Touring has, with light chime and orange flashing indicator when it detects a vehicle in your blind spot area.

• Include 6 speed. Several times when I drive uphill, my Civic holds on to a lower gear and fails to up-shift unless I flow my accelerator over 4,000 rpm for several seconds. This is frustrating since it compromise the fuel efficiency of the car.

• Improve pickup of the car, it is relatively unresponsive when I put my foot to the gas pedal.

• It's such a sporty looking car, and will do well with some form of exterior LED lighting. Honda's Korean competitor, Hyundai, adorn their vehicles lavishly with exterior and interior LED lighting at a lower price point.

I average between 31 and 32 mpg, with 34.5 at the high end. I enjoy the relatively quite ride, The simple glove compartment is a plus, since it allows me to easily replace the cabin air filter. Also, I did not experienced any breaking issues as previous posts indicated. Except for the above points, I'm generally content with my 2013 Civic.

backy

The dashboard dimming is an issue on many cars. Is there a way to increase the dash light intensity?

Re auto traction control... how is it a drain on gas unless it's engaged? On cars I've owned with traction control, it's only engaged in extreme conditions, e.g. occasionally in wintertime if I give too much throttle on an icy road.

drivefun

Looking in the owner's manual there's a brightness control knob. The parking lights must be turned on and the ignition should be set to on '||' before using the brightness control knob to adjust the panel brightness. This resolves the issue.

Regarding my comments: "Remove auto traction control. This is really annoying to have to turn it off every time I drive, it's an unnecessary gas drain most of the time"

Don't get me wrong. I like traction control, I'd rather it default to 'off', instead of 'on'. I log all my miles and gas intake. When I was unaware the default was set to 'on', I average between 29 and just under 31 mpg. When I started turning it off, I average between 31 to 32 mpg driving the same route to work.

backy

Good luck getting ANY automaker to turn off the ESC/traction control by default! They're there as a safety feature, which most people (including me) like to have on most if not all the time. I doubt I'd be able to engage ESC/traction the instant I need it. I have two cars currently with traction control and one of them also has ESC. ESC/traction has never engaged in the latter car, a Sonata, while I've been driving it. And the traction control on the other car, an Elantra, engages very rarely, e.g. if I give too much throttle on a slippery road.

If you're losing fuel economy due to traction control/ESC being turned on, IMO you should examine how you're driving the car as it should not engage under normal conditions.

jessger

Hi, when I google the web, I saw 2012 civic si has this issue, and honda dealer told me that 1 qt per 1000 miles is normal which surprise me, just wonder anyone experience or hear this issue in 2013 civic or accord?

Thanks,

Jess

wayne21

Man, HondA replaces transmissions 50,000 miles out of warranty. Unless you drove at Daytona speedway,Honda should give you new rotors.

I would have normally just read these blogs (I'm usually on the accord blog) and not said anything, but when I read the 50k miles out of warranty all I can say is: REALLY? REALLY? Then why did they have to have class action suits against them to fix faulty transmissions? They didn't fix them "out of warranty", but extended the warranty to 100k miles as a result of the class action suits. The replacement transmissions (I had three of them in my accord) get 3/36 warranties.

FWIW - a guy in Huntsville, AL, had a new odyssey with a bad transmission (very common in the odyssey's too). He took it in with just a few thousand miles on it and they put a rebuilt transmission in it. He was so angry that he had his own website on the issue for awhile. I agree with you, I would not want the rotors turned. Typically, you can only turn them (the new, cheaper ones) once before having to replace them. That has just happened on your civic.

wayne21

Hi, when I google the web, I saw 2012 civic si has this issue, and honda dealer told me that 1 qt per 1000 miles is normal which surprise me, just wonder anyone experience or hear this issue in 2013 civic or accord?

Consumer Reports just had an article about new cars consuming large amounts of oil. They seem to think it's the synthetic 0-20 that is the common factor between all the oil consumers. IDK what your civic uses, but if it's 0-20 synthetic that could be your problem.

steveaspesi

I've got a 2010 Civic lx with the stock 16" steel rims and hubcaps. Now that the original set of tires is due to be replaced I'm thinking of buying off craigslist a set of Civic 17" allow rims or 16" alloy rims. My biggist gripe with the Civic is the road noise.

Does anyone know if the 17" rim would make the road noise more or less pronounced? Do you think the extra inch provides much? 16" alloy seem like purely a visual upgrade, which is ok, I just want to hear if anyone thinks the 17" rim is worth the upgrade and would it quiet down the ride?

thanks for the feedback

steveaspesi

honda told you one quart of oil for every 1,000 miles is normal? :confuse:

so, if you drive 4,000 without adding oil, the engine would run dry of oil?

no way is that normal. I don't know a car on the road, that's built today that burns oil when it's running correctly.

vosyer

My new EXL is just 4 days old and we just took a trip over the mountains and back - my mpg just under 35 miles to the gallon. Nice pleasant ride - happy with my purchase so far.

magnumramone

Hi,
My civic takes 205/55R16, but I got a great deal on brand new 225/60R16. Will this work, can it work, how can it work?
Thanks everyone!!

drivefun

I have my EX since February, it stated with 34+ mpg with an initial road trip, then stayed between 30 and 32 for my daily commute to and fro work. During the rainy days, it's about 29 mpg. And I check my tire pressure every other week.

Unless you plan to have people tailgate you, don't count on getting 34 mpg for the long haul. You'll be lucky if it stays over 30.

I feel the 2013 Civic's engine is not as fuel efficient as Honda claims to be. The body probably needs to loose a few more pounds or the engine move to a variable timing gear like the Corolla. I continue to favor 2013 Civic's design over 2014 Corolla's though.

Before my next purchase, I'll probably do a lease, and determine if the mpg continues to languish, I'll most likely switch to the Corolla. Sorry, by $$$ matters to me, not to mention Corollas come in more competitively priced than the Civic; and I'm open to other options with reduced list price and increase mpg.