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Help Me Select a Wagon

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Comments

  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Posts: 1,308
    Are you sure it was built in Japan? I thought all NA market Subarus were built in Indiana, or is that just Legacy/Outbacks? Not that it matters; they're still anvil-reliable. Enjoy your new car.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    come from Japan. Only Legacys and Outbacks are built here.

    Bob
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Posts: 1,308
    Damn, you guys are quick. I just checked the stats. Yup...Imprezas are in fact assembled in Gunma, Japan, according to Edmunds. My bad.
  • I'm not a wagon owner, but I've been following this forum recently and was looking for some thoughts on wagons.


    I currently drive a 2000 Maxima GLE. It is a nice car, pretty much loaded. It is very comfortable, powerful, stylish and all that jazz.


    Before I purchased the Maxima I had toyed with the idea of a mini-SUV (RAV4, CR-V, etc.) or a wagon. But for a single guy in Dallas, TX- these seemed like odd choices.


    I test drove every SUV, mini-SUV and both the Forrester and Outback.


    Recently I have found that I want my car to have more functionality (I'm an engineer - it seems everything I own needs to be multi-functional).


    What are people's impressions of the Subaru's or comparable wagons. It has been a while, and I might get back to a dealer in the future - but I'm most interested in how people view the differences in power between the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder cars.


    Of course i have almost unlimited power now, but I'm not sure I really need it. What I seem to need power for is to pass people as I drive like a maniac on the highway trying to get places. I rarely do rapid acceleration from a stop, but I do a pretty fair amount of urban-highway driving.


    Also - any thoughts about what is better - manual or automatic. I seem to prefer automatics now that I do more city driving, but prior I owned only manuals.


    I would like the ride to be comfortable, at least for 4 adults (total). I recall the Subaru's seats being quite a bit more narrow than any sedans I test drove. Can three people sit comfortably in the back seat? What is rear leg room like - especially behind driver (I'm only 5'10", but I tend to drive a little further back than most people).


    Any ideas are appreciated.


    I don't mean to exclude other vehicles, if you have other suggestions I'd love to hear them - it is just that Subarus intrigue me because they seem like the are really "engineered" cars.


    Oh , I almost forgot - I do have some interest in improving my gas mileage. My Maxima does OK on the highway, but in the city not so good. I'm trying to get a gauge of how close the EPA estimates are for the 6 cylinder wagons - my impression is they are not that accurate for my Maxima.

  • Any opinions on how these two compare.


    It seems to me the Limited has virtually everything the Bean has except the H6 and half an inch ground clearance.


    Limited looks like quite a bargain considering it is nearly $3K less than Bean.


    Any owners have comparison thoughts?

  • Is the Ford Taurus the only Station wagon with the shift lever for the automatic available??
    Subies,VW,& Saturn don't. How about the Euro wagons? Ain't such dealers where I live.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Bob - you forgot the Baja is built in Indy as well. And you're the Subaru Encyclopedia! ;-)

    The TS wagon is made in Gunma, Japan. The 2.5l is more than adequate in that light vehicle.

    The boxer 4 is pretty torquey and definitely gets the job done. Most people that own one and sample the H6 don't feel a big difference, and that's because the H6 is tuned for efficiency and quietness, not all-out power.

    We drove both and the wife chose the Legacy L, which was about $8 grand less than an LL Bean Outback at the time. The L/SE is a nice bargain is you're shopping right now, right around $20k. A Bean might cost $26k or so.

    C&D just tested a Legacy L and hit 60 in 8.8 seconds, not fast, but not at all slow. It's quicker than a Navigator or a Hummer H2 by far.

    My dad had an OB Ltd and loves it. He laughs when I ask if they need for more power.

    -juice
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Isn't the Taurus offered with or with the option of a front bench seat?

    If so, it is the only wagon that does so, and having the shift lever on the steering wheel column would make sense. Even without the front bench, it is cheaper to produce them all the same rather than have two transmission designs to accomodate the shifter.
  • The TAURUS and its twin offer it both ways. On the column and on the floor. I guess no Euro wagons do then. IMHO it is a nice feature.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I rented one, and the center seat that flips and becomes a console is kind of nifty. You can seat six, or you have tons of storage.

    The rear door is too raked, though, making access to the kids in the rear seat tough. Plus it's a little bland, but not bad.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    It's very hard to find three Americans who fit across the front bench seat of any car these days. No one - not even a child - wants to be that crammed-in middle passenger. Gone also are the days in which a child safety seat resembled a high chair or booster seat that hooked over the back of the front bench seat.

    I'm guessing those are some reason's why we don't see as many passenger cars with column-mounted automatics and front benches as we once did. My hobby car has that configuration, but it was built in 1963.

    Ed
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    full-size vehicles, especially full-size pickups and SUVs, can comfortably carry three abreast, IMO.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    In a pinch, they manage. Probably more comfy than the 3rd row in a Durango, XC90, or Pilot, for instance.

    But yeah, you don't want kids up near those air bags.

    -juice
  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    Hi Folks- Some of you may be interested in checking out Edmunds' new Family Cars section. Hope you enjoy!

    And now back to the subject of "Help me select a Wagon." Thanks for your participation!

    Revka
    Host/Hatchbacks & Wagons
  • I know this has probably been covered before, but I was wondering if some current owners could add yays or nays: I'm going to add a wagon to our family this winter, and it must be: a stick; have AWD; be cheap-ish; and fun. I have a Subie Legacy right now--one of the rare FWD ones, and after sliding around all winter, Husband is going to get that one while I drive the AWD wagon (he has a much shorter commute over main roads). Anyway, those requirements narrowed it down to either the A4 Avant quattro or the Legacy something or other. I've been really impressed with my Subie's reliability. She has over 104k on her and barely rattles. The Audi was gorgeous and lots of fun to drive, but we've had 6 VW's in my family, and guess who got the lemon, and Audis are pretty much fancy VW's. Leaning more and more to another Subie, but that Audi was so sleek...has anyone had any major reliability problems with theirs? Probably will be new or just a couple of years old.
  • ncvolncvol Posts: 196
    Audis don't fit the "cheap-ish" description, and Consumer Reports predicts the A4's reliability to be "below average," but I've never heard anyone say they weren't a hell of a lot of fun to drive.
  • wrxsoon1wrxsoon1 Posts: 158
    jettababs,
    Not sure when you're planning on getting a new wagon, but the redesigned Legacy's should be in the U.S. by fall. Supposedly more room, lighter than the current Legacy and they'll be offering a turbo version of the GT model! Keep an eye open in May, as that is when the public will get the first look. I've been told (by a Subaru salesman, so get your grain of salt ready) that they'll be available in July or August.

    Not sure what you consider "cheap-ish", but that's definitely not the Audi. The high end Subie's go for $25K plus.

    -Ian
  • No question that the Suburu offers tremendous bang for the buck, but up until this point at least, I personally have never been able to get excited about the looks of any Suburu, and this applies to both inside and exterior styling. The utility and reliability are first-rate, however. Chances are the Japanese brand is going to have fewer issues than the Audi will have, but on any given car this obviously is not always the case. The Audi does have a great warranty and free maintenance for the first 4 years/50,000 miles, so if your local dealer offers a good service department - and their dealer network is rather spotty in this regard - I wouldn't let this be too much of a factor in your decision (unless you plan to keep it well beyond the warranty expiration and you were not willing to pay extra for an extended warranty at that time).

    I think the decision boils down to how much you value, and are willing to spend extra for, the much better looks (realizing that styling is a purely personal thing) and interior build quality that the Audi offers. There is no question that Audi's interiors are amongst the very best in the industry, both in terms of materials and workmanship. Most people will also find the Audi's driving dynamics to be sportier (fun-to-drive factor), and for some people this also something that weighs heavily in their buying decision.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    If you're in the market now, I think your Audi vs Subaru is for the most part, pretty accurate. However, a lot of what you say regarding Subaru's sportieness and looks is going to change dramatically over the next five years or so.

    As you may know, Subaru will have H-4 turbos and/or more powerful H-6s in all there model lines shortly. The current—and very sporty WRX will share the performance spotlight with a whole new cast of characters

    As to styling, Subaru has acknowledged that this has been a weak spot, and has hired an Italian designer to head up Subaru's design department, with the specific task of making all Subarus stunning to look at. A concept car will be shown next week at the Geneva car show which "hints" at the direction Subaru may follow in terms of design. A sketch of this concept has been posted over in other Subaru forms here at Edmunds, and, IMO, it is a stunner, as well as being controversial. Would you expect no less from Subaru? ;) There is also a write-up in the latest issue of AutoWeek on this car.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    He's greek actually, Andreas Zapatinas. And he worked for BMW before he worked for Alfa, this before Chris Bangle took over and ruined the 7 series with that hideous hump-back whale look.

    So yeah, the future looks bright.

    My take is the A4 Avant is nice but very small. I'd get a WRX wagon instead, it's cheaper, quicker, and on average more reliable. The only catch is it may be *too* good, your husband will want it, so you may end up with the older FWD Subie.

    The Legacy is bigger and more useful if you're hauling a family around. Cargo space is much, much bigger than the A4 Avant.

    If you like Audi interiors get a Passat, it's bigger and cheaper and still comes in a 5 speed with either engine (1.8T or V6). You lose the free service but so what, they don't cover the 60k service which is the first big one anyway.

    -juice
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    Juice,

    Although I agree with much being said here, the A4 wagon is not as small as you may think. In fact, it is wider than the WRX and has a little more cargo room:

    Dimensions, WRX wagon vs. A4:

    WRX wagon A4 wagon

    front leg 42.9 41.3
    front hip 53.3 55.1
    front shoulder 52.7 55.1
    front head 39.7 38.4

    rear leg 33.7 33.3
    rear hip 51.7 53.4
    rear shoulder 52.9 53.4
    rear head 37.3 37.4

    cargo seats up 27.9 27.8
    cargo seats down 61.6 63.7

    Note: the A4 hip and shoulder specs I found gave the same numbers, which is suspect and probably wrong.

    The A4 has a very wide, square opening for the cargo area. In other respects (reliability, ground clearance, price, interior), these cars don't compare well.

    - D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    IMO both would be too small for my family (2 kids). Maybe with 1 it would be OK.

    -juice
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    It's certainly no family hauler.

    To me, cars the size of the WRX wagon, Forester, and Jetta/A4 wagon are perfect if you have two cars in the family with the other one being somewhat bigger (bigger wagon, SUV, minivan, ...).

    You can easily fit 2-3 kids in the back plus some luggage. But you would take the bigger car for the weekend journeys or on longer trips, where comfort counts.

    I also think that such cars are big enough as the only car for many (but perhaps not all) people with just one kid. I grew up with 3 brothers, we had a fairly large Opel (which means probably smaller than today’s Jetta) and never ran out of space. I somehow resent the idea that you need a minivan or large SUV the minute you have a kid. But that is a topic for another endless discussion...

    - D
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    It seems to me that back in the day (let's just say the 1960's), you could stuff three kids into a car and have no problems (gosh, I remember my daily ride to grade school in a friend's car, an old Plymouth sedan, that definitely had 5 to 7 kids at one time).

    Now, with infant seats and booster seats until what, age 8, you would be hard pressed to get three of these in the back seat of most cars at all, let alone with any ease. The stroller will eat up a ton of room in your trunk, too.

    When our first child came along almost two years ago, we moved up to a VW Passat wagon (FWD GLS) from a Honda Accord for the following reasons:
    1) safety - air bags all over the place - I think 6 all told, including side and head curtains!
    2) room - the car seat fits well, and the stroller can be placed on it's side edge in the way-back. We took a long weekend trip and backed four bags, the stroller, a pack-and-play crib, winter coats, and two bags of gifts without placing anything outside the luggage area and without obstructing our vision.
    3) convenience - got leather upholstery and everything that's been thrown at it (so far) has cleaned up with just a damp cloth.
    4) economy - am getting 20 to 22 in the city and 31 to 32 mpg (cruise set at 72 mph) on the interstate with an automatic(rented a Ford Explorer last summer for work and got 18 mpg on the interstate between Western PA and Chicago - what a pig!).

    Anyway, that's our story. The Passat wagon has been great and it definitely fits our new family-sized lifestyle.
  • katnloukatnlou Posts: 2
    We have three kids and one on the way. So we need space. I have seen the adds for used wagons that say 3rd seat and want to know what that really means. Do they stand up from the floor enough to be comfortable seating? Are forward facing in any make/model or are they all opposing? What is the safety rating on these versions of wagon and are they child seat compatible? We would rather have a wagon than a mini van for many reasons, but safety comes first for parents who care...
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    They may be many things, but comfortable for an adult they are not! Friends hava a AWD Volvo and the third seat faces rearward. Even the kids fight about not sitting back there. I think the Taurus/Sable seat is the same configuration.

    Don't know about safety, but with four children, I'd personally start to think seriously about a minivan (Odyssey). If you have the third seat in use, where do you put anything?? Groceries, shopping at the mall, etc, would be a rear PITA.

    Yes, sirree, there's a mini out there with your name on it.
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    I happen to own a Mercury Sable station wagon with the third seat in back. It has no headrests. When I purchased it in April of 2000 my kids were already grown and would not want to ride in the back. However if I would've needed a vehicle to haul small kids around, I would have bought either the Honda Odyssey or a Chrysler van. I question the safety of carrying small children in the rearmost seat of my wagon.

    But having said that, I'd like to point out that My Sable scored high on different crash tests performed by the NHTSA and the IIHS. This factor was a major consideration for my choosing this make and in fact still is. Also, safety generally means lower insurance premiums. Where I live, Sables and Taurus are not stolen frequently. My car has been reliable.

    Good luck with whatever you choose!
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    ...in a crash test? I've only seen a few crash tests where any occupant position other than the driver's seat was, uh...occupied.

    If the third seat has no head restraints, then those seats are at high risk for neck injuries in the event of a crash at the front of the vehicle.

    I don't doubt that the rest of the vehicle scored well. Our Passat scored well, too.
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    Mark,

    I am fully with you on that. We also have only one kid, and also bought the Passat wagon (and are very pleased with it). However, we have a Golf as a second car, which before the Passat was always big enough for anything, including vacations. Not as practical, maybe, and you have to be a bit selective when packing.

    Since our Golf is 10 years old, I am now looking at cars the size of the Jetta Wagon, A4, Impreza/Forester for replacement.

    With 4 kids I would also consider a minivan or a mid-size SUV. 3rd row seating is not very safe in most station wagons, and you lose the space you need for all your other stuff.

    - D
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    As far as I know, they didn't perform tests on the rearmost seat of the Taurus/Sable s. w. If Ford would've installed headrests the seat wouldn't fold flat as neatly as it does. This is what the dealer answered when I asked this question. I didn't quite convince me. But anyway, It wasn't a big deal for me. What really bothers me though is the lack of headrests for the second seat; a glaring mistake on the part of the manufacturer no doubt. Other wagons have them.

    Two weeks after buying my car a Honda Accord came from behind me on a winding road and rear ended me. I only received cosmetic damage, and my head rest protected my neck just fine. If I'd had passengers in the second seat they'd have gotten some whiplash, I'm not sure.

    I don't consider European when I buy a vehicle. I did research and found that they're expensive on parts and repairs, as well as insurance in my area. Which is the reason that I decided on the Merc. Sable. Look, I'm only trying to help this fellow who is asking for advise. I don't have loyalties to car manufacturers. I always go for what I consider value after careful analysis of many factors. My car is not an extension of my ego. However, I'd purchase a new Sable anytime because it suits my needs.

    To me mini vans like the Honda Odyssey as well as the Toyota Sienna, and perhaps, but not as much, the Chrysler vans would enter into the realm of my choices. An SUV would not, except the Subaru Forester and the Honda CRV. The Out back too. But these three guys have no rearmost seat.

    Let me clarify that the rear seat in the Sable/Taurus wagon when closed it covers the well under the deck. Which in my opinion is clever. Besides, that well hides small items.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    Dietmar,
    You and I are leading similar lives! While the car we got rid of to get the Passat was a Mazda, the car before that was a '87 Golf. That car took my wife and I everywhere, and we always seemed to have plenty of room. Our child's stuff is a real "room-eater", though. The Golf would never cut it now. If you get serious about the Jetta, you really owe it to yourself to look at the Passat GL. You're very close on price (if you look at a high end Jetta versus a Passat GL).

    Daniel,
    Got no problem with Merc Sable. Frequently rent these (or Taurus) and have never had a problem.

    Actually, the Sable wagon was on my initial list of candidates, but my wife ruled it out. That foldaway third seat is slick, as it is on the Honda Odyssey and Madza MPV. She just plain old didn't like it. I think the experience one of her relatives had with a blown head gasket on a Taurus colored her opinion. Mucho bucks to fix and it never seemed to run right afterward.

    I think car shopping is one of those very personal affairs. You start out with a goal in mind, you establish price boundaries, set minimum equipment levels that you will accept, and then hit the dealerships (or internet). Sometimes, you buy the first car on your list, and sometimes you find yourself far afield, considering a vehicle that never entered your mind initially.

    Good luck to all with your vehicles, whatever they might be. And to the person looking at the wagons with the third seat - give it serious thought before you make the purchase.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Another consideration is that kids get car sick more easily if they're facing rearward.

    I'd look at a van or an Explorer or Pilot. The XL7 is sort of narrow and felt tippy to me. The Tahoe and Expedition are too big.

    Highlander is supposed to add a 3rd row option soon. Durango is being redesigned but will remain very much a truck.

    Good luck.

    -juice
  • katnloukatnlou Posts: 2
    Thanks for all your helpful advice and opinions and the sharing of your own experiences. This messaging has been very helpful for our family and we have made the decision to give up on finding a suitable wagon. We will be in the market for a used mini-van around mid-august. We would love an Odyssey, but they tend to be a bit pricey and a family of six tends to have a tight belt...if you know what I mean.
    After reading all your thoughts, we decided that the safety of our kids was a primary concern and not one to be compromised for our own comfort with the family vehicle. So, we humble ourselves to thank you for your concern and time and will go the family way with the most obvious choice of the "mini van".
    I will say that if there are any manufacturers and engineers out there listening: Please design and make available and affordable a real family wagon that will fit 7, be child seat compatible and safety tested. It would be a comfort to those who like a car that hugs the road, has little wind resistance,is easy to park on a busy city street and will allow "daddy" to drive his big family around town with some dignity. Basically...please create a wagon with a third row of seats that will accommodate a larger family with safety and style. Anyone on Outback's team listening?...

    Thank you again...your advice was invaluable.
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    Let me make a couple of observations here. If you plan to buy a pre owned mini during August you might want to consider a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna. The reason is quite clearly the reliability factor and value. And on the issue of the Sienna, access www.toyota.com and you'll meet the re designed Sienna. It's much more improved over the previous model, but pricey indeed. On the older one, you get a $1500 cash back.

    Sorry folks! I know that this thread is about wagons not mini vans. I won't add anything more on the subject. The older American crusing station wagons with real wheel drive and real room for 8 is a thing of the past. As you know I'm talking about the General Motor station wagons. However I believe that if you need room for 6 children and 2 adults with comfort, room for cargo and safety, well you've got to go with a full size van.

    And last but not least, If we are able to help anybody with advise is really thanks to edmunds.com because they provide a forum to do so. Consumer Reports doesn't offer this, does it?
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    With the three kids and one on the way, you're heading in the right direction. As far as "driving around in dignity," don't sweat it! Some of the mini-vans can be pretty luxurious. You might be able to find something coming off lease that exactly fits your needs.

    Danielj6 mentioned considering a full size van, but that's really going to eat up fuel and the ride is going to be more truck-like than perhaps you would want, but it's something to consider. I have no idea how well they hold value or what used availability would be like. Good luck and enjoy the kids; they grow up so fast!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    No need to apologize when you're just helpin' someone out.

    The catch with a used Odyssey is they don't depreciate much at all, the price is close to a new one with a warranty. Siennas also hold their value.

    You might want to look at the Mazda MPV, which is a bit smaller and sportier, and sells for less. You can get those for $20-25k new.

    Even the Kia Sedona is surprisingly nice. Resale is the achilles' heel, but if you keep it long-term you'll at least have a warranty, and the prices are hard to believe. It'll probably cost less than a 2 year old Odyssey, maybe even a 3 year old one.

    Subaru's 7 passenger SUW won't be here until calendar year 2005. I can hardly wait myself!

    -juice
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    is pretty nice, actually. Good call! We rented one on our vacation to Colorado last year; had no problems going over the mountains to Breckenridge from DIA. I didn't track mileage, but I don't recall it doing badly.

    The only thing I'd look for is a later model year version with the 3.0 liter versus the 2.5 V-6 that it initially had. The 3.0 is quieter, quicker, and less thirsty.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, and I should have said I meant a "new" MPV, not used. I too much prefer the 200hp V6 and the 5 speed Jatco tranny that goes with it.

    -juice
  • Hm, a new wrinkle. I hadn't thought about kids while trying to decide--we don't have any yet, but since we tend to keep cars for several years that's something to think about. The backseat of my '95 Legacy is pretty roomy for such a small car, but the Audi A4 did seem tight. 'Course, legroom isn't much of a problem if you're only 2.5 feet tall. Has anyone tried stuffing a baby seat and all the necessary stuff into the back of an Avant? We're leaning pretty heavily towards the Legacy GT, but I work in design and am drawn to packaging...
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    "'Course, legroom isn't much of a problem if you're only 2.5 feet tall."

    Not until they're kicking the bejeebers out of the seatback, driving you to distraction!
  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    Glad you've been able to get some good feedback here. Here are a couple other discussions that you may find helpful: Station Wagon vs. Mini-van and Minivan Shopping. Good luck with your decision.

    Revka
    Host
    Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    I was typing a message but while trying to post it was lost. I was saying that in 1998 I bought a new Mazda MPV LX 4wheel drive. A head turner, nice turning circle, very good stereo, excellent view of the road and easy to park. And that's it. It spent more time in the shop than on the road, it was very thirsty, uncomfortable for rear passengers, not that much room for cargo and it wasn't safe.

    Well, that's all in the past now. The re designed MPV is a real winner. A tall wagon with a more powerful engine that the one I had. A fold away third seat, etc. I don't know whether I'd consider it though. I don't have good feelings about Mazda. My problem.
  • altair4altair4 Posts: 1,469
    My wife was like you. She had a Mazda, back in the Plistocene (sedan with a rotary engine), sometime in the 1970's. Swore she would never buy another Mazda, it was such a POS.

    In the early '90's, I talked her into a Protege. She loved it and still misses it - we got ten years and 161,000 miles out of it before giving it to her brother. It's still running strong.

    I'd give the MPV a shot if it fit my needs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The new MPV does use a Ford engine, basically the 3.0l Duratec from the Taurus. Though the engine itself has been reliable. The tranny is a new Jatco unit, 5 ratios, too.

    Kids will kick the back of your seat - until you teach them not to. It's not a problem for us. They'll be able to reach a Legacy or an A4, neither is big enough to prevent that.

    The Legacy would be better because you have room for a stroller, easily, and still enough room left over for a platform to change diapers on. I doubt the A4 would have that kind of room.

    Also, Subaru has a factory rubber liner for spills and such, which we bought (cheap too), and it's a necessity for stuff like that. It's also good for when your strollers wheels are dirty, which is all the time after the big snow storm we had here.

    -juice
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    I just accessed mazdausa.com and looked at the MPV. Real nice, utilitarian, with practical features. It has the same engine that came with my Sable, 6 cylinder 200hp 3.0 liter. I don't know whether
    that's sufficient power for a vehicle that would carry 7 passengers though.

    At one point I had the misfortune of having to give my teenage son's friends (6 goons) a lift during new years. My wagon had quite a bit of power, much more so than the my MPV would've had having to pull such a load.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's not usually 7 adults. You typically get 2 adults and 2-3 kids, plus a few of their friends.

    Payload is usually higher for vans than they are for wagons.

    -juice
  • gwellmangwellman Posts: 17
    I'm looking for a wagon that I can put a couple of bikes inside of (with front wheels and seats removed (from the bikes)). I've decided 5spd and ABS are mandatory, some roof rack is greatly desired, my wife wants to be able to adjust outside mirrors from inside and I feel AWD and cruise control are "nice to have". Other power stuff like windows and seats etc., I could care less.

    Ok, so some Legacies and all (5spd) Outbacks fit the criteria. What I don't get is the pricing around here (Seattle). A dealer wants 19k for a 2001 Outback with 41k miles on it. Edmunds says 14k is a fair *retail* price. I offered 14.5 and he almost laughed. A private seller wants 13.5 for a 1999 Legacy Outback with 63k miles. Edmunds says 10.5 is a fair private sale price.

    So, are Subarus just "hot" right now and Edmunds is pricing them too low, or are these people delusional and I need to hunt harder for a deal.

    If the former, any suggestions for a good wagon matching the above specs that I can get a better deal on?

    PS: Sorry for the cross post, but I think the forum I posted in before might be low on traffic.
  • raybearraybear Posts: 1,795
    Has always had a problem with accuracy in Subaru pricing. Remember you're reading someone's opinion, not the Gospel.

    There's $1000 dealer cash on Outbacks, $500 on Special Editions, plus 0-3.49% financing. You may want to consider new.
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    I'd look at a minivan to fit bikes in. The Chrysler Pacifica is perhaps something to consider for size. I had problems fitting my bike into the my station wagon, let alone 2 bikes.
  • I have NO problem at all fitting two road bikes (with front wheels on) into my LL Bean. In fact, one bike is carried four days a week to various rides. I've become very adapt at knocking down the back seats!

    My wife and I have done weekend rides and have always had additional room in the back for our bicycle gear and clothing.
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