Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

brorjace

I don't know if Baldwin is a "huge" company or not as I've only come across their filters in two locations. A jobber on Long Island and Schnabel's Auto Parts in Rochester, NY who couldn't say enough good things about them. Keep in mind that the Schnabel's have their sizeable store almost in sight of a massive AC Delco plant >;^) so their recommendation really says something.

I bought one of the Baldwin filters and after having it on my '90 Integra for a while, I hacked it apart and was impressed with its build quality ... comparable to a WIX. I think Baldwin got their name making filters and parts for trucks and other heavy-duty applications but it's been a while since I've heard or seen anything about them.

--- Bror Jace

Mr_Shiftright

Actually, a dealer cannot void your warranty, only the factory can do that. The dealer is a franchisee of the factory, and doesn't set the warranty rules, only interprets them. If a warranty claim is actually submitted and denied, it's the factory that officially denied it.

stealth1969

Yes, I stand corrected.

sgergen

stealth1969 - Let's clarify...

Toyota will only void the warranty for sludge if they believe is was caused by neglect/lack of maintenance.

Spend the couple extra bucks to have your service done by Toyota and your potential problems are solved! As soon as you start doing your own maintenance and/or involving outside comapnies (i.e. Jiffy Lube, local mechanic, etc.) you're opening the door for the "finger pointing" to begin.

If Toyota has been the exclusive maintenance source, then all of your documentation is in one spot and you're good-to-go!

Common thread between all the sludge stories heard here (and elsewhere), maintenance has been done by owner or outside company.

My free advice, and worth every penny!

Scott

armtdm

Well, I would find an attonrey willing to take this case on commission. Unless they can prove the sludge was cause by neglected maintenance they should pay. Hit them with a claim naming the dealer and Toyota, notify the BBB and State Consumer Protection Agency and go from there. Worth pursuing!

stealth1969

Post #166 from 210delray is "... an "IMPORTANT INFORMATION" card from Toyota that came with the owners manual, maintenance manual, and warranty information from a new 2001 RAV4.
The card (part number M/N 00404-02000-CARD), "About the Maintenance of Your Toyota," reminds the new vehicle owner that "Regular maintenance -- including replacement and replenishment of vehicle fluids -- is essential to obtaining the highest level of performance, safety and reliabiity from your Toyota." The card cites the 5000-mile severe-service interval and the normal 7500-mile interval.
It then warns in bold type, "It is especially important to regularly replace the engine oil and oil filter. Failure to do so can cause oil sludge build-up, which can result in severe damage to your vehicle and require costly repairs that are not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

From my experience and the posts I have read; Toyota's stance is sludge only happens from lack of maintenance, it is the owners fault. I know this would be an up hill battle because lack of maintnenance is the primary cause of sludge. Even here in this forum, it has been said many times by many different people. So, Toyota and many other people take it that, if you have sludge, you did not maintain your car.

readytobuy1

It's been proven that sludge is caused by negligence-more specifically not changing the oil frequently enough. I also understand Toyota's point-of-view, how can they be sure the oil was actually changed, and done so correctly with the correct equipment, if it was done by someone else?

Legally, I wonder whether they have been questioned in a court of law if they have elected to void a warranty and refuse to pay for repairs in a vehicle that was found to have sludge IF the owner can verify oil changes at the proper intervals with receipts (from someone other than the dealer).

Do I remember once hearing that the only way Toyota can legally do this is if they offered free lifetime oil changes and the owner elected to bring the vehicle elsewhere?

FYI-I know someone who recently purchased a new Sienna and the dealer threw in free oil changes. An added perk or an ounce of prevention?????.

isellhondas

Why is Toyota being singled out on this sludge issue. Personally, I think it's a stampede of misery loves company complainers that are eager for support from other sludge "victims"

Why not Buick, Honda, Ford and all of the other makes?

Guess we'll never know the real facts?

mrroc

Today I took my car to the dealership for the first recommended oil change 1000 miles and the mechanic used Quaker State 5w30. Has anyone had a bad experience with this brand of oil. Does it offer good protection for engines,
Please reply.

armtdm

Interesting marketing. QS ads say they have an oil that can go beyond 3,000 if you forget to change your oil whereas all of the Pennzoil ads say 3,000 miles. Same company, no doubt same oil! Pennzoil has a ton of the quick lub places so they push the 3000 mile changes.

QS is okay.

stealth1969

If the oil in an engine was not changed like it should be, what color could it be? Would it be light in color or dark? I know every time I have changed the oil on any car the oil came out dark to black. Would it stand to reason if the sludge was caused by lack of oil changes, the sludge would be dark to black in color?

brorjace

Quaker State and Pennzoil are now the same company ... but I'm not sure who bought who. Also, they still might be separate formulas as it takes a while to coordinate manufacturing. Quaker State oil USED to have serious problems (over 10 years ago) but I'd bet their current formula is fine. The extended duration oil probably just has additional zinc phosphate in it ... along with more corrosion inhibitors to neutralize the acids that form in the crankcase over time.

I've never seen light color engine sludge. The goo I've seen has always been almost black.

Also, just because the oil on the dipstick or the oil that is drained comes out clean isn't necessarily a sign that all is well. It could mean the detergents/dispersants in your oil that are supposed to be removing sludge/varnish from inside the motor and holding it in suspension are not doing their job.

--- Bror Jace

sgergen

My point was, if you have all your routine maintenance done by the dealer you gain:

1. All receipts in one spot
2. Dealer knows entire history of car
3. One party is responsible if something goes wrong.

Will you spend more? Maybe a little...

The place I go has a quick lube built into the Toyota dealer. My work is always done in under 25 minutes and I am fairly confident that it's been done correctly and I know it's been done with genuine Toyota parts.

It's not just Toyota, I take my Suburban to the Chevy dealer for the same reasons.

If something ever would go wrong, there is no "middle-man" or outside company that they can point their finger at and claim that it's their fault.

Of course, if you actually *do* the scheduled maintenance I don't think you'll have much to worry about.

Scott

stealth1969

I agree. If you look at some previous posts it was my recommendation to have the dealer do the work.

armtdm

You are saying that if the dealer changes the oil in accordance with the owner's manual and sludge builds up they will cover under warranty. Correct?

Suppose you get the oil changed in accordance with the "NORMAL" maintenance schedule and you get sludge and the dealer has never recommended to you that you do otherwise, do you still think they will cover sludge under warranty???? Or, will they still claim a lack of maintenance?

Sorry, I just don't trust dealers on this one!

dudleyr

It seems to me that there are two types of sludge.

If you don't change your oil often enough you get a tar like (looks like tar put is softer and not sticky) black residue that coats all of the parts under the valve cover(s). I bought a used vehicle that fit in this category. I looked under the valve cover and everything was coated with a dark black sludge. This vehicle may not have had its oil changed in 42,000 miles according to my mechanic.

The other type of sludge is a cream color, and has the consistency of yogurt. This is caused by condensation. A co worker has a Durango that had this problem. He only had 5,000 miles on his vehicle - so it could hardly have been abused by inadequate oil changes. The oil filler tube on this vehicle is in front of the engine-away from the engine, and is plastic. This keeps it from getting very warm - as a result it had a thick coat of this cream colored sludge. This was recalled by Dodge to get better circulation of warm gasses to prevent the condensation - thus preventing the sludge.

Do the Toyotas have the cream colored sludge? If so, this is not from abusive lack of oil changes - although more frequent changes may help prevent it. This is from the engine not getting hot enough to burn off any condensation. Toyota makes a very efficient and powerful engine that turns at a relatively low rpm (due to 4 speed auto and taller gearing). This engine may need more time to get to operating temp than engines of the past. I had an old rabbit that would turn water to steam if it touched the valve cover. On my newer (1990) Integra I can touch the valve cover even when the engine is warm (it is hot, but touchable).

So in a way Toyota may be causing the sludge with their own excellent engineering. If you make an engine that is very efficient and never has to work very hard it won't get as warm - this problem would be exaggerated in colder climates. If the engine does not get as warm, it will not burn off all of the condensation and hence sludge will form.

Why only Toyota - why not Honda. Maybe Honda engines run slightly hotter, maybe they warm up faster (I do think Hondas are geared slightly shorter - and rev a little higher at the same speeds - that may help them warm up faster). Maybe a part of the Honda design keeps the valve area warmer (less area under valve cover to heat up - less surface area of valve cover to help it lose heat etc.) Or maybe Honda owners do have the problem, but don't know it. 4 Cyl Hondas use rigid valves that may hold up to sludging better than the hydraulic valves Toyota uses.

Is the sludge thickest in the corners of the valve cover, and near the filler cap? These would be the coolest areas under the valve cover.

What kind of climate do the people with sludge live in? I am in SD and I can let my car idle for 20 minutes in the morning and the temp gauge is still pegged on Cold. I don't have a problem because I use Synthetic Oil, and I try to get the engine warm every chance I get.

If you live in Detroit or Chicago VS Miami or Los Angeles. I would say your chances of getting the cream colored sludge are much higher. Worst case would be a very cold climate combined with very short trips (1-2 miles or less).

bblaha

I think all they're saying is that by doing the work yourself or having it done somewhere other than the dealership, you give the dealer (and the manufacturer who is responsible for the warranty) an out.

No they can't void your waranty, but they can certainly make it tedious for you get them to support it.

By having the work done at the dealership, you rob them of that out. "What do you mean improper oil changes are what caused the sludge. YOU did the oil change!"

Myself, I don't trust the dealers either so I do all my own maintenance regardless.

isellhondas

Many posts ago, I told a story about the "old days". Thirty years ago, as a kid working in a gas station, we could always tell the Pennzoil engines. They were loaded with sludge. When a valve cover was pulled they were nasty to clean.

An old timer mechanic, who was one of the very best HATED parrafin based oils like Pennzoil and QS. His favorite at the time was Havoline. Even though this was a Mobil station, he used nothing but Havoline in his own cars.

Now...this was a long time ago, and these issues may no longer apply.

Still, to this day, I won't use either of these oils in my lawnmower.

I remember using a putty knife to scrape three inches of gunk out of an oil pan once.

The elderly lady insisted on Pennzoil!

spokane

Dudleyr said it very well in pointing out that black sludge is the result of neglect; infrequent oil changes, possibly in combination with overheating. He's also correct that the light-colored sludge is caused by moisture which can result from poor crankcase ventilation or an engine that is often operated below normal temperature. In addition to the short trips and cold climate, a thermostat that is controlling at a lower-than-sped temperature can be the culprit. Note that a thermostat that's opening at 150*F will provide rather good heater performance but may not be adequate to allow the moisture to be purged from the oil.

It has been correctly noted that the PCV valve should be cleaned or replaced to assure crankcase ventilation. If the PCV valve is dirty, it's also important to check cleanliness of the PCV tubing fittings to assure flow from the crankcase to the intake manifold. Further, the line which allows the make-up air to flow into the crankcase also must be checked. On most cars this line takes filtered air from upstream of the throttle valve and feeds it into the valve cover.

Note that a short section of the air line which supplies the crankcase is heated by contact with a hot-water bypass on some (perhaps all) Hondas. I presume this small "line-heater" is to prevent condensation and freezing of any moisture during cold moist weather. Indeed, if moisture froze and plugged this line, the crankcase would have no ventilation and the problem would be difficult to detect because the ice would likely melt by the time an inspection could be made. I have worked very little on Toyotas; is it possible that the crankcase air feed line could be freezing on some of them?

alcan

Hey, where've you been hiding? Good post re sludging. Pretty much ties in with post #116 I put here ages ago. Btw, how's your torque converter shudder problem now. Did you ever get it sorted out?

stealth1969

The sludge in my engine was light, about the color of honey. The dealer only told me I had sludge and that was it. The dealer said it would take a while to get the cleanup done so they had the van for a week. There was some things we had in the back we needed, so I went and got them out, the van outside. While I was there, I looked under the hood to see how bad it was. I touched it and it felt like wax. The service manager said he was going to take pictures, I wonder if he did or not. By the posts by Spokane and Alcan, I would take it my sludge was not caused by lack of oil changes due to the color of the sludge. I wish I had taken pictures so I could follow Armtdm's advise. I wonder what the color of the sludge other sludge victums have had.

Off subject but this is for Armtdm:
IDIOT SIGHTING #5: When my husband and I arrived at an automobile dealership to pick up our car, we were told the keys had been locked in it. We went to the service department and found a mechanic working feverishly to unlock the driver's side door. As I watched from the passenger side, I instinctively tried the door handle and discovered that it was unlocked. "Hey," I announced to the technician, "It's open!" To which he replied, "I
know - I already got that side."

spokane

Sorry I hadn't read your #116, Alcan. Very good information. I am not at all certain that ice formation in the crankcase air supply line could occur in a warm engine compartment but the line-heater I mentioned would seem help reduce the relative humidity of that small air stream. Do you know if that is the purpose of this device - and do other manufacturers use any such pre-heating system?

I'm embarrassed to say I have not taken action on the "shudder" problem. Since the condition is not too bad, I have delayed. Your suggestions regarding the TCC engagement point and the probable need for a new PROM in the ECM make excellent sense and will guide me when I do take action. Thanks again.

dlusger

I see some thoughtful discussion here. I bought a 2001 Sienna not knowing about the sludge so I'm stuck. I want to be proactive - what does the community think about the following. I live in Washington DC - mornings typically below freezing in winter.

- What's a short trip? I go 4.5 miles stop & go in 15-20 minutes each morning commute. By the time I arrive the temp gauge moved well off "C."

- Should I idle a couple of minutes or so when below freezing to be sure?

- Play it totally safe and drive my other car on the morning commute (that seems extreme)

- I'm resolved to changing my oil at the Toyota dealer every 3000 miles. Doesn't appear synthetic oil helps.

alcan

Ford and GM say it takes 15-20 miles of highway driving to bring the engine/drivetrain to full operating temp.

armtdm

Suggest on either morning or afternoon take the long way home. Can't believe so short in that beltway traffic, truly the pits.
Okay, at next trip to dealer for your oil change specifically state to the rep that you are concerned with sludge. Ask him that if sludge develops and you have your oil changed there every 3,000 miles will the warranty cover it? Get it in writing or write it out and have the manager sign it!

210delray

To play it safe, also change the oil and filter at 3-month intervals, if you go less than 3000 miles in this time period.

Also, always have a Toyota dealer do the service; if you have to do it on the road, seek out a Toyota dealer as well.

Keep all receipts, even though the dealer will have a copy.

readytobuy1

My wife also does short trips in our '00 Sienna. Stick with Mobil 1 synthetic oil and have it changed by Toyota. I have yet to read about anyone getting sludge using synthetic oil. When you go to pay your bill, have them validate your owners manual with the dealership stamp and make sure you save all receipts. I change the oil every 5,000 miles, and since I am following the manual and having Toyota do the work there's no need for worry. If it develops sludge, which it most likely will NOT, it will be covered under warranty.

carlbevan

My name is carl bevan and I don't know anything about synthetic oil but I pulled this post from another board for you to read. I don't know enough about synthetic oil to have an opinion on it myself. This man's experience appears to be identical with those who have been using natural oil.

I also have a post on this board describing my sludge experience dated approximately 2/21/01.

Here is the post from the other board:
********** ************* ************** ************** ************* ************* *************
Synthetic Oil in a Camry

I pulled this from elsewhere. I am sure the nay sayers will find fault. It is a good thing the oil company did not.

Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 09:41:03 GMT From: Mike V Newsgroups: alt.autos.toyota
Subject: Synthetic oil warning for Camry 4-cyl engine (long)

The long-time users of synthetic oils (i.e., myself) are going to be surprised; the I-told-you-so crowd will want to do just that
-- Please try to stay on topic!

The story:

We have a 99 Camry in which I changed the oil to the Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30 (drain interval is 35k or one year, which
ever comes first) at the first oil change at 3k. It now has 27k miles on it and the engine is destroyed--blew up this past
Tuesday evening, 11/7. The car was due for its annual oil change when this occurred. I had the car towed home so that I
could inspect it the next day.

What little oil was on the dipstick was extremely thick and there was no firm indication of an oil *level* on the stick. A
visual inspection of the engine & drive train appeared normal--full coolant, oil drain plug in place, etc. The Camry was
towed to an independent mechanic I've used for fourteen years because I wanted him to put the car on the rack to locate the
oil leak I suspected. I also wanted his expertise on record in the event there was conflict with Toyota and/or Amsoil. His
findings were no leaks, but extreme sludge build up in the engine--found by using a bore scope through the oil filler opening.
This mechanic told me that If he had not known me as long as he has (and how I take care of my vehicles) his conclusion
would be that I had not changed the oil, resulting in combustion burn up of the oil. His recommendation is to replace the
entire engine with a new unit.

While waiting for the above inspection results I contacted Amsoil Technical Services and relayed the breakdown to them,
and asked what kind of info they required in the event the oil was suspected as the cause of this failure.

After my mechanics evaluation, my next call was to the service manager at the dealer where I bought the car. I relayed
everything to him, including the fact that I had an independent evaluation. When I described the findings to him, along with
the brand of oil used, he told me that he personally had seen the same problem in a customer's Sienna. The customer went
through the entire arbitration process trying to have his problem covered under warranty. The end result was Amsoil paid for
an engine overhaul (new short block and related components) and ancillary expenses.

The Camry was towed to the dealer for inspection. The valve cover was removed and I saw ~1/2-inch of sludge build up on
the cam/valve train components--something that occurs over a long period of time. According to this service manager, this
particular model of the four-cylinder engine runs very hot to comply with emission standards and the oil in it must be
changed at the Toyota-recommended drain interval, regardless of the type/brand of oil used.

Toyota denies warranty service for this failure and recommends replacing the short block. I have enough mechanical
knowledge to recognize that the oil is at fault in this failure and am not bother by Toyota's decision.

After the above inspections I again contacted Amsoil tech services department. I talked to a different individual, again
explained everything, and asked questions regarding my experience and what could I expect from Amsoil in getting this
situation resolved. According to this individual, this type failure of this engine model is a known problem at Amsoil and they
will stand behind their product warranty (a sigh of relief for me--hopefully not having to fight a corporate giant). He also
added that Amsoil is investigating/evaluating this engine model and is finding the same problem when petroleum-based oil is
used. His recommendation is to replace the engine, not overhaul.

Apparently the design of this engine is extremely hard on oil. The bottom line is: change the oil at the Toyota-recommended
intervals, or more often (preferably with documentation), in the event there are any warranty concerns related to engine oil
failure.

I have been an Amsoil dealer for six years and have used their products in all of our vehicles during that time (92 Camry,
190k; 95 T100, 84k; 88 Ford F150, 88k; 88 Buick LeSabre, 147k; as well as lawn/garden equipment and emergency
generator). I have always followed the Amsoil-recommended drain intervals and have never had an oil related problem.

Any thoughts on this situation?

*********** *************** ************** ************* ********** ****************

sgergen

That site is a quagmire, no rules, no editing, etc.

So, consider that before you lend any credibility to anything "pulled" from there such as the post above from
"Carl Bevan".

Scott

armtdm

That Amsoil has stood behind their warranty. This is the first case that I have heard of it being tested. I applaud them for placing their warranty in writing and standing by it and for an apparently honest approach to the situation. I have not gone over 15,000 miles myself but in my experience I have never seen sludge in over 6 cars I have used Amsoil in over the years.
Thanks for posting

brucer2

Regardless of issues related to sludge and synthetic oil, it sounds like the oil wasn't changed and/or checked for over 20K miles. I'm sure the oil didn't dissapear all at once. If the level had been checked, found low and more oil added, sludge under the filler cap may have been observed.
I think anyone who that goes to long, extended oil change intervals (>5k with synthetic) is conducting an experiment, and should get their oil analyzed evry 5k miles. I say this because different engines and drivers are different so you have to determine an appropriate change interval for your conditions.

armtdm

Although I go 7,500-12,000 between changes I check the oil every week or two. The engine replacement comment earleir should not have occurred if the oil was checked, found to be low and oil added. To that degree I am surprised Amsoil honored it as the oil level apparently was not maintained, should have been oil in the crankcase.

hicaira

Excuse me, but anyone who runs a car over 20,000+ miles without even bothering to check the oil is a complete and and utter moron and deserves a blown engine. I hope Amisol refuses to "honor" their warranty because I do not think stupidity should be rewarded.
/end rant.

HiC

stevejjjjj

....this guy is a dealer of motor oil. Hmmm. Shouldn't he know any better?

pilot13

Another poster noted the source of the quoted story as the Complaint Station, so I went there (Reluctantly, because it's a disgusting site) for a look.
There were a couple of recent posts by a Carl Bevan, and several responses to those posts. The responses alluded to relationships to other posts by Charlene Blake--the consumer advocate who got this thing about sludge started. These other posts commented to the effect that C. Blake's and Carl Bevan's posts were being done by the same person.
My question is simply this; Is there any truth to these comments? If this is what's happening, then the quoted story must be considered suspect.

stealth1969

I have to admit my theory of what caused the sludge in my Seinna was wrong. If the engine was dirty I would expect the sludge to be dark, not light colored. I looked at the repair invoice for the cleanup of the sludge in my Seinna. The only parts replaced were 24 valve seals, gaskets, oil and oil filter. I was curious if they had replaced the PVC valve. If the PVC wasn't bad and the color of the sludge doesn't indicate lack of maintenance (which agrees with my earlier posts on how I maintained the van), it makes me wonder what caused the sludge. What would make a wax like sludge instead of being gooey?

liufei

I see the sludge issue (Mainly in Camry) is back again....
Probably I should just copy & paste all those
"wonderfull" discussion that took place on the old sludge board. Then again, it'll probably add oil to the fire...

210delray

Liufei -- Please, no cutting and pasting. We've been doing quite well in this board, thank you; we don't need to reminded of the arguments by the Consumer Reports vs. Car Max devotees. I think the latter (you know, the one whose user name started with "fx...") is gone from edmunds altogether.

Stealth1969 -- How much were you charged for the work on your engine? Was it about $1000? At least the engine was fixable, and really, not too many parts had to be replaced. Again, your sludge was light-colored?

pilot13

Just what we need--another theory. Here's mine. I theorize that if the subject had not been given so much hype (Blanket coverage of every cartalk site on the net by misguided consumer advocates), there wouldn't be a problem!

210delray

Is it possible that Carl Bevan, Charlene Blake, and minpin1 are the same person?

pilot13

Sure it's possible--real easy to do. Log on with a different username, or use someone else's computer. Betcha it works. Make no mistake, these advocates are determined to make their point, and are convinced that "the end justifies the means!"

liufei

pilot13:
"the end justifies the means!" ... kinda make them similar to other "interesting" individuals don't you think?
If its really necessary, we could just trace all the IP that these poster are logged on. Compare it to the one in the e-mail account being registered in Edmund....and you can get your own conclusion.
No one is completely invisible/anonymous in the internet. Well, maybe if you works for Microsoft

210delray:
I have to agree. The discussion taking place is much more civilized and tend to move toward finding the cause/solution, instead of just direct confrotation in the old topics.

stealth1969

210delray:
The work cost $991, the dealer reduced the cost by $50. The engine has been running fine since. Yes, the sludge in my engine was light colored and felt like wax.

Pilot13:
I admitted my theory was wrong (the one I believe you previous said was a myth, hey, you were right). I have not brought up any other theories. Could we please stick to sludge and not try to find a conspiricy by every post that it is cblake (you know it could be or just might not be). To get back on topic: what do you think would cause light colored sludge with the consistancy of wax? Thank you.

carlbevan

First, I will go on the record here to say that I am not Charlene and I do not know Charlene. That said, let me proceed....

After my experience with sludge in my '98 Camry (see my post of approximately 2/21/01), I quickly discovered 2 things: 1) In sludge cases, Toyota has an iron policy of not honoring their warranty REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES, proven or unproved, and 2) Many internet sites are heavily populated with documented cases nearly identical to mine and to each other. I also noticed that no other manufacturer has suffered this phenomena. This is not to say there have not been scattered sludge cases out there, there have been; it IS to say that 95% of the reported cases appear to be concentrated on two of the Toyota engines, their late model 4 cylinder and V-6s. The other 5% appear to be for all other engines combined.

The prospect of taking a Multi-Billion dollar international conglomerate to court was just to daunting and so I have taken the following steps to try to save my engine.

I have paid $942 to have the valve case and oil sump pan cleaned of the mountains of sludge in my low time engine in which the oil was changed (to no avail). Next, I changed the oil filter and replaced the oil with 5-30 Mobil which is the oil Toyota uses in their shops but with the 'Toyota' name on it (a slightly thinner oil than usual). At the advice of an individual in the shop, I have added 1 quart of 'RISLONE' which I understand to be an oil with a transmission fluid like consistency and a heavy concentrate of detergents. I will repeat this process every 1000 miles for about 3000 miles. I figure that if there is a 40% chance this will work and prevent the ultimate self destruction of my engine (which appears to be working fine right now) , it is worth risking the $942 to save the $5000-$6500 for a new engine.

I will post the results of this experiment here as they become known.

Serious inquiries may be made to carlbevan@zworg.com. Others will be ignored.

liufei

"it IS to say that 95% of the reported cases appear to be concentrated on two of the Toyota engines, their late model 4 cylinder and V-6s. The other 5% appear to be for all other engines combined."
Oh, I won't be too sure about that. Here in Edmund alone there're multiple references about sludge in reference to the Dodge Dakota and Dodge Durango. Back before the old threads is frozen, I posted several finding in the usenet of sludge problem with the Jeep Cherooke.
If you feel you been cheated by Toyota on repair work, I would recommend seeking legal ways, either through arbitration of attorney (if you feel you have sufficient evidence), or at the very least report them to BBB. I don't think any1 should get away with anything, no matter how big they are. Its just at this point, I'm not sure that its really a defect of Toyota, or the fault of the owner.

Also, it appears that Ms.Blake has a habit of taking on the auto manufacturer.
So far she has:
1)Fight Chrysler on brakes problem on her Dodge (and spreading it to a class-action lawsuit, which I guess she won (?)
2)Fight Honda for a supposedly (?) faulty ABS system in the Oddysey. (possible class-action lawsuit in the making)
3)Fight Toyota in the current sludge issue (possible class-action lawsuit in the making)

It appears that she always seems to have problems with the minivan that she bought/used (92 Voyager, 95 Oddyseey and now 99 Sienna), and it eventually leads to the possibility of class-action lawsuit.

pilot13

For at least setting the record straight that development of engine sludge is most definitely not unique to Toyota. Edmunds contains references to it in other topics, and posters in this topic have commented on other makes as well. As an aircraft owner, I've seen horrific sludge problems in aircraft engines also. There is no such thing as a statistical trend towards sludge in Toyota engines, or any other make, as C. Bevan has suggested.
Insofar as "Many Other Internet Sites With Identical Problems" is concerned, there are indeed a lot of sites out there. I find that just about all of them have multiple posts by our friend C. Blake which comprise most of the subject matter in them. For example--Cartrackers. com-- has a total of 7 different topics on Toyota problems--all of them authored by her. Check out any of the others she suggests, and you'll find that it's no different there either. If nothing else, she must spend a huge amount of time maintaining these sites. I often wonder why?
Regarding the color or consistency of sludge-- the only way to relate this to a cause would be to have an analysis done on the engine oil. To suggest any relationship in this context would be sheer speculation. One would also have to take the kind of service the engine was subject to into consideration too.

stealth1969

The issues with the Dodge Dakota and Dodge Durango are not quite the same as the issue with Toyota. The Dodges only have a little goop under the oil cap and the fill tube, not enough sludge in the engine to cost around $1k to clean. Many Toyota dealers do not even recommend a cleaning but a new engine which is much more than $1k. I personnaly think those dealers recommend the engine to be replaced to preclude problems in the future even though cleaning would be fine. If they clean the engine and some other problem comes up with the engine, would it be warrentied or not? They don't want to hassle with that. Much easier for them to recommend a new engine. Yes there is some talk in other forums about sludged engines, but nothing I have seen that is even close to what has been seen with the Toyota.

liufei

Go ahead and check out usenet and the newsgroup out there, you can find multiple posts in it. The problems with those Dodges are quite real, real enough for Dodge to issue a TSB for it.

And pilot13 is right, the newsgroup does have multiple subjects regarding Toyota's engine sludge, but they're mostly either started by Ms.Blake, or have post from her in it, and begin to appears in later half of 2000.

Just consider this, Toyota sold millions of this vehicles during the period of 1992-2000. Yet so far, the problems has arise in....what? 10-15 owners?. Granted not every1 posted on the internet, but if there're a real defect in the engine, there're got to be more than that.

I personally would like to know how many Toyota owner have contacted her regarding this sludge issue.
If the issue is really with the engine, then Toyota MUST take responsibility, if its due to the owner lack of maintenance, then its the owner fault.
But i guess it would always be easier to blame someone else for one's own problem.

isellhondas

This is why it's so hard here to figure out what is really happening. a single crackpot bent on starting trouble for a company (for whatever reason) can cause a lot of damage.

" My engine blew up...it MUST be someone's fault"

210delray

...has indicated that his engine wasn't trashed, we're back to the common denominator in most (all?) of the ruined Toyota engine cases, that the vehicle was driven on short trips, with too-long mileage intervals between oil changes, and an independent shop (usually a quickie lube) did the work.