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Scion xA
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Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
I went to look at the Scion xA and ended up trading in a 2003 Honda Civic LX stick and getting the xA (also with stick). My trade-in was admittedly very new, with only 10,000 miles on it, but it was a two door coupe and it was driving me nuts trying to access the rear seat (on the @#$!# Honda, the seat doesn’t “remember” its incline, so there isn’t an easy way to tip it forward without having to fidget it with it afterwards). Ok, that’s just looking for excuses. The truth is I like new cars and the xA is really appealing. The Civic might be proven, but the xA is fresh and new.
Here are my impressions after 500 miles of driving:
First, this is NOT an Echo. Ok, it IS on an Echo platform, and very similar in exterior and interior dimensions to the Yaris version of the Echo sold in Asia and Europe, but I owned an Echo and I can attest to the fact that it is NOT an Echo. Why not? Well, first it weighs a lot more. It feels solid and substantial on the road. The xA weighs 2,335 pounds with stick. In comparison, the Echo weighs 2,035 pounds. In comparison, the Civic Coupe weighs 2,557 pounds, and the VW Golf 2,771 pounds. So the xA is lighter than similar cars, but nowhere near the ultralight Echo. My Echo was very susceptible to cross winds, and got buffeted when passing semis. Even after upgrading my tires to Bridgestone 950’s in a slightly wider profile.
Second, the Echo handled like a “toon” car, but the xA handles like a sports car.
According to published reports, other “Echo” differences are that the xA has a rear stabilizer bar (none on the Echo) and recalibrated suspension (read: “sport”). The result is that the xA really handles like a sports car, with a taut ride. Unlike the test drivers at Car and Driver, I had no comfort problems with the car on a long drive. However, if you are on extremely heaving sections of road, the short wheel base and firm suspension can cause the car to “bobble.” Overall, though, I like it, and consider it a significant improvement over my former “short wheel base” favorite, the old Honda CRX (only 87 inches wheelbase!). The xA handles the way a VW Golf should handle (instead the VW Golf has been “chevroleted”).
How does the xA handle compared to the Honda Civic I traded in? In my personal opinion much better, even though you sit much higher in the xA (center of gravity issue) and the track is slightly narrower. The standard Goodyear LS 185/15’s stick like glue, thanks to the suspension and light weight. Honda switched from its famous double wishbone front end to a normal McPherson strut set up in 2000, ostensibly to open up some interior space, but a lot of people have complained that they don’t handle like they used to.
Ok, now for the engine. The engine is the jewel like center of this car. It is way better than the car “deserves.” Ok, way better than the Echo deserves. It is 16 valve with variable valve timing (VVT-i). This means the valve timing change is continuous, not based on a fixed change at a certain rpm level like on the Honda EX and Si. Also, the “i” (or “intelligence”) part means the valve timing is linked to other conditions such as acceleration, going up hill or down hill. Here is an interesting link (scroll to the bottom of the page when you get there) on VVT-i: http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/vvt_3.htm
In addition to the 16 vales and the VVT-i, the car has a solenoid actuated plunger in the exhaust to change the flow in the muffler (which affects low end torque response).
The problem with putting this engine in the Echo, was that it was overkill based on the Echo’s handling. The problem with putting this in the xA is that it is a little small for cars these days – even the notoriously penurious (in displacement size) Honda Civic is up to 1.7 liters, Corollas are 1.8 with 130 horsepower, etc. So the xA has the stability needed for the engine, but you are lugging around an extra 300 pounds, or 15% of the Echo’s base weight.
There is good news and bad news to what Toyota did to “fix” the bhp/pound issue. They lowered the gearing. The gearing is relatively close ratio, and at 80 mph the engine is turning around 4100-4200 rpms. This is fast these days. It is well within the engine’s capability – the engine just purs – but it is awfully fast. My old Honda Civic Coupe with 5 speed was “only” 3500 rpm at this speed.
That is the “bad” news. The good news is, the car is very responsive – I seldom needed to downshift to get passing speed in the 50-80 mph range. With the Civic, I was hung out to dry unless I downshifted. Also a problem with the 2.0 liter Ford Focus. VW, with the normally aspirated, ancient design 2.0 liter they still run, also gears the stick shift models low, and turns over at 4,000 rpm at 80 mph, with resulting responsiveness on the freeway. However, the zA is smoother and quieter than the VW.
The low gearing, combined with the good torque, means the xA can be driven on the street in 5th gear. There is no need to keep it in 4th, either for normal passing or because the engine is about to lug due to the low road speed.
The close ratios and free-revving engine mean the car can be driven hard and fast – in the stick version! It doesn’t get too loud or sound “cheap” when driven aggressively.
[continued next post]
[See part 1 above.] Finally, while talking about shifting, the xA is a little “notchy” – you can feel the gates and have to “baby” the stick through the “notchy” points. I am hoping this aspect of the xA transmission will break in a little. On the other hand, the clutch is short and sweet, the ratios are superb – first is neither too high nor too low. The stick shift, on my small frame, is situated very close to the right hand corner of the seat – a traditional sports car position. Since the clutch is not long-throw, I can “double de-clutch” – rev up the box before downshifting to ease the downshift (and to better match speeds when downshifting at higher revs) very easily.
A nitpick: Toyota needs to adopt a reverse lock out collar. I really like them on cars that put reverse below 5th gear, instead of over near 1st gear where you are less likely to downshift accidentally. I’d really hate to miss third gear and try to put the transmission into reverse .
Driving ergonomics: You sit up like a van driver, and the steering wheel is a little like a bus. I got used to it quickly on the Echo and re-adapted quickly on the xA. You either accept it or don’t. There isn’t any “liking” to it, except that I acknowledge the outstanding rear seat legroom, and roominess of the car, depends a lot on this “upright” sitting position. I DO like “upright” now, compared with “sports car low” which is more common on the Dodge Neon, Honda Civic, etc. The upright position (as opposed to low slung on sports cars) is a longstanding design feature of Golfs/Jettas, but the Ford Focus, Echo, and now Scions are including it as well.
Visibility is very good. No squat passenger seat windows (like on the Focus ZX3 and Honda Coupe) that impair lane changes to the left. I can quickly scan the left lane now and make a lane change.
There isn’t an arm rest on the xA. I miss it. Only one glove box (unlike the Echo) but there is a sneaky under-stereo compartment that’s big enough for maybe cd’s or sunglasses etc. It has a translucent window, and I discovered that if the sun is shining on it, you can see a (brown) wallet inside, so don’t assume the translucent window always assures privacy. There is a nifty ledge under the glove box that fits cell phones very well. The door storage compartments are pretty narrow, the price of this narrow European/Asian spec (width) car. (Yes, the car is narrow and short. If you live in an urban environment and have to park on sidewalks or in really short, otherwise illegal parking spots, you’ll love it.)
There are nifty “grocery bag” hooks on the backs of both front seats (towards the center, not towards the doors, so you can reach back from the front) and also on each side of the “trunk,” or rather on each side of the laughably small area that passes for a trunk. I don’t even think my Civic hatchback was so dimensionally challenged in the trunk area as the xA. On the other hand, the “hatch” opens completely to a flat floor, and if you are like me and seldom have more than a single passenger, you can very, very easily flop down the rear seats and, voila, “micro-wagon.” Actually, if you don’t carry as much junk as me (never know when you need a spare sleeping bag and winter jacket), the trunk is very usable for grocery etc. shopping; if you have to, you can drop the seats for the occasional large appliance (tv?), and of course AS A FOUR DOOR the space behind the front seats is always fair game. I carry a backpack for my day stuff (who doesn’t) and unlike the two door cars I have, it is SO easy to just open the back door and take the backpack out.
[continued in next post]
[see parts 1 & 2 above]
A certain very popular car, whose symbol does NOT mean “Hyundai,” won’t let you unlock both sides of the car with your key; although this model (the LX) has power door locks, you first have to open the driver door, then use the power door lock switch to open the passenger side. If you start from the passenger side, it’s even worse, because the poor passenger doesn’t have a power door lock switch that controls the driver’s side at all (which means my wife has to lean over and lock/unlock my door when I stop at the local ATM).
On the xA, one twist of the key gets you in, two twists unlocks the passenger and front and back doors. (Keyless remote, with alarm, is a $495 option.) The hatch is electrically operated, which is also neat, because it doesn’t actually “pop” part way (leaving you in trouble if you do so accidentally – you would then have to get out of the car to slam it shut). Instead, like on the VW’s, the power door lock switch also unlocks (but doesn’t partially release) the rear hatch, and when you go back there you just operate the unlatching mechanism. If you drive away without accessing the hatch, it relocks when you lock your doors.
All is not perfect in xA world. Although we have had some admittedly hot weather recently, I have a light colored xA and yet the aircon was still almost ineffectual, even after miles of driving by which time the car should have cooled down. If I turned up the fan, instead of getting more cool air, I got more air, but NOT as cool – in other words, the amount of cool air was just diluted when I turned up the fan. The aircon is so weak I will ask the dealer to check it out, and report back if they discover a problem. My former Echo was no giant of frost, but it wasn’t THIS bad (but then the Echo did have a light colored interior, so that might be a factor; the black dash on the xA is big, and the front windshield very sloping).
The dealer I purchased my xA from stuck to the list price (Toyota’s published price) but “overallowed” my trade-in. They were very decent about not pushing accessories or “finance department” extras on me.
The radio that comes with the car is quite good for a stock unit (the single CD). It has THREE problems: it is incredibly easy to install and remove (so the dealers can “accessorize” the level of radio you want) which means it is regrettably steal-able (and is the right size for Toyotas); it has no “anti-theft” serial code (keeping with Toyota’s apparent policy of keeping things easier for the owner, if also easier for thieves); and there is no “skip ahead” function on the tuner portion – you can increment the tuner by 10mhz segments, but it won’t jump over “empty” slots or weak stations. To do that you have to “scan” which only goes one way (forward), and won’t stay put (on that channel) unless you push it again. The stock speakers are good, but, surprisingly, not as good as I would have expected in a premium unit that includes front tweeters.
To actually appreciate the value Toyota has put into the Scions, you have to see them. They aren’t “cheap” but they have excellent finish and materials, with VW the closest to compare to. For example, the plastic on the dash and top door panels is “pebbled” and looks very neat, and there are some nice brushed steel effect trim panels. Clearly this wasn’t designed for Midwest Mom. The “fixed price” represents a good value, imho. On the other hand, you can’t get a “cheap” under-optioned Scion, like you can with Echo (where even power steering is an option). I think this will bode well for resale value. The “accessorization” route is also a good idea – at least for cars that are ordered and not bought off the lot. Most of the accessories are installed at the port of entry, where it is cheaper and faster to do so, instead of at a dealer with the associated training/inventory/etc. issues that drive up costs. For example, I could have ordered my xA with side air bags and aluminum wheels at no additional cost.
The dealer I bought from told me that recently sales of xA’s have picked up. They thought this might be because xB’s are a little scarce, but I am pretty convinced that someone with their mind set on the xB will wait for one. Initially I liked the xB too, but I came to like the better aerodynamics of the xA. If you are committed to folding the rear seats flat, the xB and xA both have a lot of storage space. With the seats up and a three people in the car, the xB’s extra rear seat storage becomes an advantage. (The xB also has a slightly longer wheel base.) Otherwise it is probably more of a “style” issue (although I think the stability control is a very, very big xB “plus”).
Finally, the Echo (with light weight and high gearing) gets the best EPA mileage rating; the xA gets 31/37; the xB 30/33, with the xB paying a severe highway penalty for its lack of aerodynamics.
PS: I can relate to your comment about liking new cars. Happy motoring! ;-)
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
However, LEV is still pretty good, better than the legal requirement, and the the motor is very responsive, without any hiccups and with normal engine braking. In contrast, on my former Civic, the engine had very little engine braking, and on a Focus PZEV I drive, the engine has weird hiccups and hesitations (although it is fast as heck and turns in 31-32 mpg).
Personally I'd like to see a lower emissions rating with perfect drivability, but given the low total greenhouse emissions of this small displacement, high mileage engine, I can live with LEV rating in exchange for good drivability.
I liked the design of the xA a lot. Not a car I'd be embarrased to be seen in, comfortable interior, and good dollar for dollar value. One big problem however, this car didn't seem to have much in the line of power. The salesperson told me that it needed to rev pretty high to make the most power. Well without realizing it I was redlining the car but still wasn't getting the kind of power I needed to get on the expressway without cutting someone off. (Thankfully unlike most Illinois drivers this guy actually backed off when he realized I was having trouble getting up to speed. Around here we don't merge, we play Chicken)
What I wanted to find out is if this had anything to do with the extra California Emissions equipment that would've been on the car. I've never had problems getting up to speed in my old '93 Subaru Impreza or my nephew's 2000 Civic LX both of which had automatic transmissions and were comparable in engine power to the Scion. These cars were both purchased in Illinois however and we don't require the same emissions equipment here.
Oh well was a thought and I was hoping that someone here might be able to answer that for me. :-)
Also, if you come across anyone else that you think would be interested in discussing the Scion xA, please send them here. Here's a url to this discussion that you can copy/paste:
/direct/view/.ef129ed
Happy posting, and thanks for your participation!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'd try driving another Scion xA with auto, and if you still aren't happy, don't buy it.
My own xA with a stick is faster than my former Civic LX (1.7 engine) with a stick, for what its worth.
1. On my auto tranny Echo (no longer own it), the transmission didn't downshift readily - some cars are willing to downshift immediately to give you better power, but the Echo seemed biased towards not downshifting until you gave it significantly more throttle. I learned, eventually, how to "work" the throttle so I could make it downshift, and keep it from upshifting, without having to give it _too_ much throttle. Conversely, I learned how to give it more throttle, in 4th, just shy of causing it to downshift, which is good for maximizing gas mileage. Basically, I would choose a throttle position that would give me the shifts that I wanted.
2. My experience with the 1.5 liter engine is soley from an _Echo_. When I bought my xA, I didn't even bother to try the auto, not because the Echo had been deficient in acceleration, but because I like sticks better. Since the xA stick has aggressively low gearing, quite possibly the xA stick follows suit, in which case the xA could be even more responsive (not ultimately faster 0-60, just more responsive in spirited driving) than my Echo was. When you test drove the xA, what rpm was your auto xA showing at 60 mph? At 80 mph? It would be interesting to compare notes vs. my stick version. Did you feel the car was responsive on the freeway without needing to downshift, or did it feel like a turtle unless you 3/4 or full throttled it and forced a downshift? It's certainly easier for Toyota to change final drive ratios than individual gear ratios, but it would also be interesting to know if the xA auto has the same ratios or different from the Echo (the xA weighs 300 pounds more).
(Actually I just checked on the 'net, and the auto ratios are the same, but on the Echo the final drive ratio is 3.85 and on the Scion it is a more aggressive 4.150 - so the Scion auto should be responsive on the freeway. Note that on both the Echo and the Scion, 3rd is 1.00 and 4th is .70 - they are both "overdrive" designed).
I do remember that when I first drove the Echo, before I learned to work the auto, I thought it was "slow", but later I thought it was quick. I just had to learn how to use the throttle to force a downshift (like I said, the Echo, at least, was a tad reluctant to downshift) and not be shocked by the difference in rpm and noise levels (the engine has a nice note, but downshifting changed it from a grandmother's car to a toy racer).
Hope that helps.
Thanks in advance!
I am 5'8". I set the drivers seat to a comfortable position, which is close to the steering wheel than for taller drivers. The seat was fairly upright so my arms were comfortable on the steering wheel.
In that seat position, there were about 3" of room between my knees and the driver's seat when I got in the back of the xA.
If a passenger runs their seat back, as many passengers like to do, there won't be much rear leg room for the passenger side rear seat passenger.
In short, no better or worse than comparable cars, an _improvement_ over comparable cars if you take the overall length (very short) of the xA into account.
On the other hand the car is very usable for short hauls, to a pizza parlor etc., so it will probably be great around campuses - shoe horn five people in, get dinner, squeeze into a parking space.
If you want to regularly carry adult passengers, get an Impala or a mini van (not an SUV, they aren't much better on rear leg room).
On the other hand, the rear leg and toe room in the xB is nothing short of HUGE, on par with that of a limousine or large family sedan. That's one of the reasons I'm getting the xB, not the xA.
Scion xA fails to make grade, Hatchback disappoints in key areas
That is not meant to say that I agree or disagree with their findings here. I just don't give them any credibility whatsoever, whether they rave or rant about any particular car. Makes no difference to me, as my cat has better opinions according to me, and I don't even HAVE a cat.
It wouldn't be quite so bad, but the newspaper in which they appear has THE authoritative newspaper auto section in this country. I am astounded these two have survived as long as they have...
"We were also a bit dismayed by what was under the hood. Our Scion came equipped with a twin-cam 1.5-liter four-cylinder engine that makes 108 horsepower and is linked to a five-speed manual transmission. The engine is noisy, especially at highway speeds, and it's short on power, particularly when you're trying to overtake or merge into heavy freeway traffic."
The xB has the same engine as the xA. Given that the xB is heavier and not as aerodynamic as the xA, the reviewers should have the same issue with the xB engine. They seem to like the performance of the xB engine, but not the xA, why?
Expecting consistency from these two is expecting far more than they usually deliver.
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
Since xA and xB are based on the Japanese models ist and bB, respectively. Do they have different a/c units?
To me "wagon" means a passenger car (sedan) where the roof goes all the way back to the bumper. I guess the xA kind of qualifies - except the trunk is shorter than expected. The Golf and ZX3 also qualify, but have bigger trunks.
Current hatchbacks like the VW Golf, Focus ZX3 and xA are in between mini-wagons and earlier hatchbacks - except for the xA they are styled to look like cars, but they function like wagons. The xA is styled more like an old Tercel or Honda Civic wagon.
I think in Europe they treat these types of vehicles as 2 seater station wagons - when you've got to move or haul stuff, the seats go down. When you have friends to take to dinner the seats are up. All the time, they fit in smaller parking spaces than sedans, where the trunks are designed to be longer to make up for the "notch" that makes the roofline.
The xA is also a little trickier to categorize because it is so short, the "trunk" area is very tiny, like a Mini, and it doesn't have a hard hatch cover, like on the ZX3 and Golf - it has a roll cover. Sure looks like a shrink to fit wagon.
Personally I think it should be in hatchbacks only because that is where I would look for it. It is styled more like a micro-wagon (see Suzuki Aerio) than like a car (see Golf), however. The problem with hatchbacks is too many people have issues with them - they seem cheap to too many people.
These distinctions are becoming ever more blurred in today's market, especially since manufacturers avoid both terms as being kisses of death. They prefer SUV, cross over, extended sedan, ANYTHING other than hatchback (seen as cheap econobox) or wagon (seen as familymobile boring).
I think the terms are both now bordering on archaic, sad to say. Some of us LIKE wagons. The last 15 years have offered very few choices.
Since xA and xB are based on the Japanese models ist and bB, respectively. Do they have different a/c units?
Some further thoughts on the power and pickup - if you are just driving normally, the car is nice and quiet. If you try to get on the accelerator a little, there doesn't seem to be much power. But, if you are aggressive with the throttle, you get the pickup you want (comparable to other small cars, except for the overpowered 2.3 liter Focii). So it drives a little like an old time sports car.
On the freeway, there is a drone from the engine compartment. I think this is due to a combination of factors - new, tight engine; "intelligent control" of cam and muffler; and load. Sometimes there isn't any drone, even at 75+ mph. Othertimes there is a drone anytime over 60. So I tend to think it is related to cam position and whether the muffler "plug" is in its open or closed mode. Except for this intermittent drone, the car is very quiet.
This is an exceptional small car. It is NOT an Accord or Camry, and for interstate runs it is NOT comparable to a 2.0 or 2.3 liter Focus, or to the Civic line. It IS a lot more fun. It's hard to explain, but having driven all three, I prefer the xA. It's just got a lot more character.
As for the trunk, the most obvious question mark, I found it quite useful for Yosemite. In my larger endowed cars, I was tossing and leaving a lot of extra stuff in the trunk - plastic boxes with oil, windex, rain-x - the works; extra clothing, sleeping bags. By rethinking the opulence of my "trunk stash", I have been able to make the "micro trunk" of the xA work for me - even while carrying the car stuff (in a collapsible duffle, instead of a non-collapsible box) and three gallon jugs of water. Sorry, the sleeping bags had to come out to allow two medium size day packs and a third with extra clothing to go in. But, I was still able to manage pulling the "privacy cover" over the contents.
Having four doors is neat. Why didn't I think of that before? Probably because the ZX5 costs three grand more than a typical ZX3, ditto for VW. Also because this car looks GOOD in four doors.
Get a lot of attention in parking lots. A fresh face is like that. :-)
The two things I like best about the car are: 1) its styling; 2) ABS (reassuring to have); and 3) the gas mileage. Ok that's three, but I can't emphasize how nice it is to have a car that delivers its rated mileage, is as solid as a Corolla, and looks nothing like a Corolla.
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You will also be able to find it easily with our Search features on the left side of the page. Thanks for your participation! ;-)
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
"Get a lot of attention in parking lots. A fresh face is like that. :-)"
It must be fun being one of the first on the road! Does anyone have any idea when it will be released in other states?
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
In Yosemite once again there was no problem with any of the hills. However, engine braking on the DESCENT was not as strong as I would have liked. (Emissions controls usually keep the engine from being too gas starved, which, conversely, keeps them from "braking down" as much.) Even double de-clutching and dropping into third didn't save me from having to tap the brakes (keep in mind that 120 departing Yosemite has some pretty steep declines).
Although the car can keep up with almost anything on the mountain roads, exclusive of aggresively driven sport cars, it does NOT have enough "extra power" to make an aggressive passes in the mountains, unlike a Focus with the PZEV 2.3, or a Mustang V-6. It will do normal country road passes fine, though.
Hope this helps.
For the record I figure a station wagon to be a vehicle built on a sedan platform and with a length equal to or greater than the sedan it is based off of. Neither the Scion or the Golf meets that definition.
That's also how the US governent rates them.
It was hard to get the dealer to take me seriously. I think they get a lot of cold air (lack of ) complaints on all cars. But, honest, on my other cars I run the fan on the lowest setting and even on hot days I am usually clicking the air con off after a few minutes because it gets too cold - the air at the vents is downright cold on my other cars, unlike the xA which is merely mildly cool.
I did own an Echo last year for a while, and it was definitely colder than this, adequate for me (but perhaps not for other drivers). So I don't think it is a problem with the basic compressor and aircon system design.
I will keep you posted. As of 2pm the dealer is waiting for the ambient temperature to warm up to 77 degrees - believe it or not, their test manual only allows testing at 77 degrees ambient and above. Naturally it was 82 yesterday and is only 73, last time I checked, today.
Runs like a Swiss watch.
No quality control, assembly, or mechanical issues.
Interior finishes make it look like a micro Lexus, not a descendant of the Tercel / Echo line.
Handling is outstanding - the initial harshness of the ride has disappeared as the struts break in.
Absolutely positively no sensitivity to cross winds or semi truck passing, due to the suspension.
No hint whatsoever of the Echo in this car - although the basic platform is the same. Shows what attention to detail can do.
Great pickup with a stick. High freeway RPM's, but the motor is so smooth you don't notice.
I don't know if I would have bought the xB instead if I had it to do over again. Each vehicle has their charms. Personally I think the xB is THE way to go if you are going to regularly have four people in the car, but doesn't add much over the xA in terms of behind the seat luggage space. Both cars are ample with the rear seat flat. (Although Andergtr clearly needs all the extra space provided by the xB for his music gear.)
I think the extra money on the xB is well spent just in terms of options (stability control) although VW is now making stability control available as a $400 option on the Golf. When you consider the "cool factor" the xB is about $5,000 under valued. (At list, without $2,000 worth of dealer add on wheels.)
My 2 cents. Cross posting here due to lack of enthusiast interest on the xA board. Mechanicals are mostly the same on both vehicles.
How soon before we see it?
sky-on
scone
skyonay
skoy-ahn
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