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Cadillac CTS/CTS-V



  • jemillerjemiller Posts: 183
    Cadillac is either behind on schedule (e.g. certifying the manual transmission with the 3.6L) or completely screwed up on this one. People in the US don't buy manual transmissions on the little engine for economy.

    A narrow (but very vocal, and very devoted) segment of buyers buys manual transmissions on the biggest engines for fun. Until GM learns this one, they will not be competitive at the high-roller table.

    The 3.6L engine is going to be used in a wide range of vehicles - aside from where else it might end up in GM's US line, it's replacing the 3.8 Buick rockerbox in the Australian Holdens.
  • richm4richm4 Posts: 169
    Considering that the 2003 CTS has been out for well over a year, does anyone know when the 2004's will start hitting the lot?
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    I am guessing that they will start building the '04's in either June or July with the cars on the lots in August.
    But that doesn't mean the new engine will be available then. It could be Sept or October or even later.
    Sometimes they will end production earlier and start the next year's production earlier too.
    Kind of like what they did with the 2002 Camaro.
    It was availble in June '01
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Cadillac had a very good commercial running tonight during the Academy Awards.

    A man enters a subway car and sits down, he then notices a vintage Cadillac on a poster on the wall.....then the trains moves......he sees that car in motion and then he sees the CTS, Escalade and finally the XLR. When the train stops the picture on the wall is of the XLR.

    Then the announcers says "Who would have seen it coming". Finally a good ad from Caddy.

  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    That ad played during the Super Bowl. The man starts in the commercial in 1953 looking at an ad for a 1953 Cadillac Eldorado (with correct Cadillac script, though the Cadillac logo is from the late 50's...oops). As the train starts to move, so does the Eldo, which is then passed by a CTS, the an Escalade, a SRX, and finally the XLR. When the train stops, the main is in the year 2003.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yep thats the one, I'd never seen it before. It actually grabbed my attention. Probably the best ad I've seen from Cadillac.

  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    A few other notables from that website:

    The colors Sterling, Garnet Red and Copper Sunburst are all history. My dealership said that the dealers never really liked Sterling; they wanted a better silver tone. Copper Sunburst was just a hard color to sell, although the occasional extroverted buyer sometimes came in and had to have it. And I agree that the CTS needed a better red.

    The seats get lumbar adjustment...hooray!

    The dashboard clock gets replaced by a water temp gauge. Finally! Now where's the oil temp and engine temp gauges while we're at it?

    The 3.6L V6 joins the 3.2L V6 in the lineup. Yup, this is classic German marketing, and the correct move. People who want a CTS for under $33K can still get one, while buyers who want the better engine will pay for it. Those of us who have 2003 CTS's won't suffer severe depreciation over a 1 year engine, and GM will still get some return on some of its engineering costs when the 3.2L V6 was modified for the CTS from its original design.

    New wheels, but no 18" option...well, at least not until the CTSv shows up. No more exposed polished lug nuts in the new designs.

    The LuxSport gets the polished wheels back as standard. I never understood why this was taken away in the first place.

    A manual transmission for the 3.6 V6. I'm going to assume right now that this is another example of a option that isn't ready for primetime and will be late. Considering that the 3.2L V6 has one, and the CTSv will certainly have one, the 3.6L's absence of a manual is too much to overlook. Hopefully this will get rectified soon.

    Split folding rear seat is now standard on the Lux Sport...should be standard across the board.

    Lux Sport gets the Xenon headlamps standard...good.

    Unlike the SRX, no manumatic available in the CTS...weird.

    It looks like the "sport" mods have been decoupled from the LuxSport model, so you can order Stabilitrak for a base 2004 CTS...but you have to take the 17" wheels, firmer ride, load leveling suspension, new wheels, etc. That will only drive the price up.

    And lastly, the exhaust tip is stainless steel.
  • bingomanbingoman Posts: 373
    sevenfeet0 - there is no load leveling suspension. There is a headlamp leveling system with the Xenon headlamps as required by law.

    There was a load leveling suspension, including an air compressor and air shocks in the rear on the Catera, but I can find nothing in the service manuals referring to such a suspension on the CTS. The headlamp leveling system is described in the manuals.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    It's listed in the list of features of the LuxSport model. Check Caddy's web site in the "Specifications->Chassis and Suspension" section. I've seen this in action on my car during heavy loads.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    Anyone notice that the STS isn't going to be offered for 2004? With the 2005 STS coming, I guess Cadillac wanted to make a real break with the past, and that means retiring the model for a year or so. So if you want a 2004 Seville, you have to take one in SLS trim.
  • kulkatkulkat Posts: 6
    Thinking about getting the CTS but not sure if I want an Automatic or Stick. Drove the Automatic because the dealer did not have any Manuals, in his words, "They weren't selling". Hmmm? Does that mean I can get a deal? Really would like to try one out first.
  • mannytrannymannytranny Posts: 175
    Just checked the on line ordering ( thanks BIGDADDYCoats ) and I'm shocked. Like in AWE there's is no MANUAL trans available with the 3.6. I was looking forward to the 3.6 as a possible trade for the 3.2 but now that cannot be.
         What is Cadillac thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

         After all of the hype about competion and attracting new buyers ( and I think I'm doing my part to help ) this has got to be a mistake. I just don't see a CTS with an auto shift going to the drag races. What kind of fun what that be! When I went last season,young people noticed the CTS , it's performance and it did get attention! I'm probably the only one that went and ran a CTS for time runs but it was great exhileration and just plain fun to drive it and get to see how it can perform and how I performed with it. To almost become one with the car is a great feeling. Imagine a CTS going down a dragstrip. Not something even I would have imagined years ago let alone being the driver.
         I don't race every week but time trials are fun events. They are held about 6 times a season. I am simply performance oriented and like to test it out from time to time.
         Sorry Cadillac! Performance image is futile without a manual transmission!
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    2 manual tranny CTS on AutoTrader now for less than $21K.... no autos anywhere near that. Looks like the manuals may be taking a massive resale hit.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    In this country, we've been getting very used to slushboxes. I admit I prefer them to manuals, primarily because I usually don't have enough legroom in cars to make it practical. My wife actually really likes manuals, and would have ordered our CTS with one if it weren't for the fact that I would be driving thr car alot.

    BMW has a dedicated customer base of manual drivers that they have built up over the years, but I imagine that they still sell more automatics in this country than manuals. Mercedes-Benz doesn't even offer manuals on most of their models and hasn't seen their sales or prestige suffer.

    It's also possible that the current manual doesn't have the ability to handle the increased torque from the engine, or there could be other technical issues. The 6 speed manual for the CTSv will certainly be able to handle the torque, but whether you can mate a transmission donated from the Corvette (I assume) to a 3.6L V6 remains to be seen.

    Still, I think Cadillac needs to make a the manual available with the "middle" engine to give buyers and choice, and to continue to press the point with journalists that they are serious about the sporting aspects of this and other products. The last time I remember that Caddy offered a manual on the base engine but only an automatic on the upscale engine was the <gasp> Cimmaron.
  • richw5richw5 Posts: 152
    I checked out the 2004 on-line order page and found it was missing "lots" of information. Check out some of the other divisions. They have models and equipment missing too. As time goes by, more items and cars will be listed. I'm sure an '04 STS will be available.

    Although I've never owned a manny tranny, I learned to drive on a '56 Ford Crown Victoria with a V8 and a stick on the column. Later on (1966-67), I raced "4-speed" Corvette's on dirt tracks in Texas. I agree with all of you that a stick should be offered with both engines and the "sport lux". Cadillac should match and beat the competition.

    The build date for the '04 CTS is June 9th. Availability will probably be some time in September.

    This thread keeps on getting better. With the exception of some anti-GM or anti-CTS people that pop in once in a while, it's become a great source of information and experience sharing. I just hope that someone from Cadillac (not just pmdriver) looks at this page and listens to our compliments and our criticisms. CTS owners are their best salesmen and women.

  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    It doesn't appear people are putting their money where their mouths are when it comes to the manual CTS.

    2 reasons why a car would take such a dump in value so quickly... either it has issues, or no one wants it. Reports of widespread issues on the CTS are non-existant, so the latter is likely the case and seems to be corraborated by dealers. This isn't the first dealer I've heard of saying manuals aren't selling.

    It's a catch-22.... if no one buys them, they're going to get dropped regardless of any enthusiast's protests (they couldn't save the Camaro), but this instant, heavy depreciation is certainly a sure way to scare off the few who might be interested.

    Too bad my wife doesn't want to shift. This could be one of the greatest used car bargains ever.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Posts: 1,058
    It looks as thought the 3.2 will only be available with a manual. So, if you want an auto you have to get the 3.6. I can only imagine that a manual for the 3.6 will not be ready in time and they are keeping the 3.2 with manual until it is - I HOPE this is the only reason. I am trying to find out from some friends a GM what is going on - will let everyone know what I find out.
    As far as the manumatic on the CTS, it would seem that it would have on since the SRX will. From that site it is not clear if both the SRX and CTS use the exact transmission.
    In my opinion people that buy cars in this class with manuals want it for the added performance. The problem is that the 3.6 with auto will most likely out perform the 3.2 with manual - making it hard to sell the 3.2. Please Cadillac wake up and get it right! Here is my suggestion - drop the 3.2 at the end of the 03 model year (build extra manuals with the 3.2 at the end of the model run). Start 04 production with autos only and work like heck to get the manual for the 3.6 ready ASAP - no later than six months after launch. Infiniti launched the G35 with auto only and made the manual available under a year later. Cadillac needs to do it a little faster though.
    Also, maybe Cadillac should consider pricing the manual and auto models the same. Nissan does this with the Maxima and Infiniti charges more for a manual G35 than a auto G35 ( there may be some added equipment). This would help GM get back some of the cost of developing the manual. Just some ideas.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    If the public isn't buying them, the dealers will stop ordering them. If the dealers stop ordering them, Cadillac will stop making them. It's pure economics.

    Lincoln tried but gave up. Cadillac will probably do the same. The other brands can subsidize the cost by selling the manual overseas even if the US sales aren't that strong.

    At least they're planning on putting a manual in the CTS-V. If Lincoln ever comes out with a Hi-Po LS it will probably get the ZF 6-speed automatic from the S-type and not a manual.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    Ah, interesting. I didn't realize that the 3.2L engine is manual only. This does sound like the manual + 3.6L V6 isn't ready, so rather not have any manual option at the start of 2004, it was easier to keep the older engine + manual around until this issue is fixed. If Cadillac had planned to drop support for a manual, then they wouldn't have even bothered with the 3.2L V6.

    Regarding the STS, if you click the "New for 2004" icon, in the next screen it describes "Deletions". In that section, it lists "STS model", as well as three paint colors, and the old sound system.
  • bxd20bxd20 Posts: 68
    I'm 27, professional career, auto enthusiast who lives and breathes cars, and talks to others about them. I would think Cadillac would want me as a customer desperately.

    And they almost have me. Currently I drive a 1999 Contour SVT. With 200hp and a tight 5 speed the car does 0-60 in 6.9 and pulls 0.86g on a skidpad.

    Funny that those numbers line up almost perfectly with a 3.2 CTS with manual.

    So why would I want to go from a $23xxx to something in the high $30s unless along with the huge improvement in luxury, fit, and finish, it at least SLIGHTLY outperformed my current sport sedan. Please Cadillac, give me more reasons under the hood.

    A 0-60 of 6.9 wasn't bad a couple years ago, today it doesn't really stack up to the middle tier BMW's and Infinity's.

    And unless the CTSv comes in much lower than expected, it's out of range for myself.

    brian dors
  • bingomanbingoman Posts: 373
    Sevenfeet0 - you are right that a load leveling system is listed as an included item on the Lux-Sport version, but I can find no mention of it in the 2003 service manuals, volume 1 or 2. These are the official dealer service manuals from Helms.

    Are you seeing an actual maintainence or recover of rear bumper height when you load the vehicle, or are you judging from the fact that the headlight aim is maintained? I will have to check further.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    With few manuals being built, it's very hard to believe they'd keep building that powertrain.

    What I think....
    Manual and auto 3.2. Base and sport versions only, no lux - I'd even like to see them decontent it a little, maybe delete some gizmos and make leather optional.

    With lack of manual demand, I expect to see only manumatic 3.6 with lux and sport versions, new console, etc. How about some more wheel choices, esp. in 18" and 19"?

    Manual and auto 5.7 CTSv. 400 hp, not 350.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Posts: 486
    Bingoman, I noticed recovery of the height of the rear wheel well from the ground when the car is powered up, and subsequent squat when the car is turned off. Recently I moved from Atlanta to Nashville and piled into my CTS (with the rear seat folded) all of my home theatre components and some computer gear.

    I noticed the full load definitely caused the car to squat. I got out a ruler and measured the distance between the rear wheel well from the top of the rear tire. Then I started the car and measured again. The CTS slowly recovered to proper was pretty obvious, even without the measuring stick.

    I'm not sure why you can't find it in the manuals. That is strange.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    I too own a Contour SVT.... believe me, the current CTS is a big step up.
  • jemillerjemiller Posts: 183
    The BMW vs Mercedes debate is always entertaining - there's no question, though, that a specific component of BMW's ownership base is loyal (almost to a fault) to the brand because they do offer manual transmissions and other driving-related features rarely found elsewhere.

    The problem Cadillac and Lincoln face is getting the would-be BMW driver into the showroom in the first place.

    And, as for the CTSv's manual transmission, the parts will probably be more or less straight out of the Camarobird parts bin - while the Corvette uses a T56-based transmission, it's packaged up in a rear-mounted transaxle configuration, which you won't see in the CTSv.
  • mannytrannymannytranny Posts: 175
    I got my recall notice in the mail today and have scheduled an appointment for Thursday to have the steering bolt checked. The letter said it would take 15 minutes to check.
        Also I asked at the dealership about the specs on the 2004. Apparently they haven't been informed yet as to the new engine only being available with the auto trans.The salesman said that they haven't received the data yet on 2004s
  • richw5richw5 Posts: 152
    I didn't look under "New for 2004" for the Seville. Thanks for the info. I don't know why they would eliminate the STS unless they were getting ready for the change coming up in 2005. The first pre-production 2005 STS is scheduled to appear at the Detroit show (NAIS) next year.

    Although my '99 STS doesn't handle as good as the CTS, it's a great road car and almost as much fun to drive.

    mannytranny - We received the CTS recall letter today too. I'll call tomorrow for an appointment.

  • lbthedawglbthedawg Posts: 48
    Don't worry about not being able to get a manual tranny in CTS. There will be a stick in the V-Series. But of course it will be expensive and fast, very fast.
  • b4zb4z Posts: 3,372
    This thread has certainy picked up again.

    Camaro, Firebird, and Corvette all use the Borg Warner designed and now Tremec built T56.

    Corvette's is rear mounted like the poster said.

    This is a heavy transmission and weighs 75lbs more than the old T5.

    It weighs as much as an automatic.

    A heavy duty piece that is rated for 450 ft. lbs of torque.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Posts: 1,058
    Kelly Cusinato at Cadillac and asked if a manual will be offered with the 3.6. She responded "We will not offer a manual on the new 3.6 V6. The vast majority of our customers want automatic".
    That is a mistake.
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