Bling Bling: 1. a rap song from the rapper B.G. of the group Hot Boyz reffering to the glistening of chrome/diamonds, because of the songs popularity (I'm sure no one on this board has ever heard it ) the term some how snuck into main-stream media/America; Hence leading to further confusion of middle age to late America and the countless post and miss use of the terms on tons of message boards.
oldsman01: twikes lol!
anyone got an idea on when CTS-V coming out? I was told by a dealer that it wasn't until sring 04...but by further research I think they thought I was reffering to 04 STS
Automole, I like the polished wheels on my Lux sport . I dont need any ostentatious opulence . Although Kronix Virus wheels are to my liking . I was dropping off my CTS for a new manual transmission and I noticed that of the eight 04 CTS on the lot NONE had a body color rear plate bezel . When are they supposed to be body color . The dealer had a silver Lux sport on the floor ....10K mi no nav asking 32900 .
I'm not a big SUV fan(although lately I've found myself eyeballing Explorers) but the SRX is very impressive. If I could afford one, I'd seriously consider one. Way better Caddy SUV than the Escalade IMO. 40 inches of rear leg room is very impressive. Looks like that long wheelbase paid off. The CTS, SRX, and next gen STS are going to Cadillacs to watch as I think that are all going to prove very popular and successful for the marque. As for the CTS's rear leg room, when I had one for 24 hours I did sit in the back momentarily and it seemed to have about as much rear seat leg room as my Intrigue does. I would imagine it would be tighter with three people back there due to the higher driveline hump, but for one of two, I think the CTS's aft quarters are as good, if not better, than those in the Intrigue. At least you get real headrests, not just a bulge in the upper part of the seat back.
wwhite2: I like the lux sport wheels AND the base model wheels...my gripe is not with the design of the wheel but with the size. IMO the CTS should have come standard with 18" wheels. Also, the Kronix Virus IS a great looking wheel but like most of the wheels I've found it's only 7.5 inches wide...unless I want to go to 20" "dubs".
b4z: When I was at the dealer they gave me a pamphlet on the SRX. I picked it up because my Dad is interested in possibly buying a SRX if they arrive on the dealer lots anytime soon. The literature was interesting because it was actually for the dealers (not the consumer). It compared the SRX to the other SUV's in it's class and described the target buyer (if my memory serves me right it was age 50-60 with an anual income of $150K) which was much older and much more wealthy than myself. They also had a nice article in this month's Car and Driver on the SRX. If I could afford one I'd trade in the family station wagon (PT Cruiser) and buy an SRX for my wife in a heartbeat! I still like my main vehicle to be a car though, and the CTS has plenty of room for Me + Spouse + Baby + 2 Passengers.
golfnut5: Did the service department give you a hassle about replacing the instrument cluster...and do you know if there was a TSB on the clock fix?
I have been told that the first CTS-V models will be built in mid October. These will be driven by GM employees in the test fleet. Saleable models will begin slowly begin production sometime in November and reach the dealers in mid to late December. What a great chirstmas present.
I have my CTS back from the dealer . All is well except the numerous grease stains on the floor mat and lower edge of the door panel. 1. They replaced the manual trans . The noise is gone . It even seems to shift better .
2.I had mentioned that during a cold start the starter drive seemed to hang on a bit to long . They replaced the starter.
3. I requested the steering recall be performed ,they did
4 . They are 0 for 2 on having a Cadillac as a loaner car
I received a letter from Cadillac today giving me an order number for my CTS, and instructing me to go to a special website where I register this number. Once I register they will send e-mail to me on regular basis as my car goes through each stage of production. This is a new program, not quite as good as allowing you to track the vehicle yourself, but it's a start, and I beleive that is where they are heading. I registered today. We will see how long it takes for the first e-mail and what information it contains. It has already been 2 1/2 weeks since I placed the order.
I am waiting to hear more about how the new trans shifts, etc. before I go in. Keep me informed about if it shifts smoother, quicker. etc. and no more noise is just great!I won't have to put the volume up to hide it . How long did it take? Did you watch at all?
They had the car for two days . They said it was an easy changed . It was a conventional swap, remove the driveshaft, disconnect shifter and any electronics, unbolt the trans and reverse the procedure .They dont even have to touch the bell housing (clutch ) GM sends a "surgery kit" with all necessary parts .I have done it countless of times to cars I have worked on ,it's basically just unbolting. If they put back all of the parts and remember to tighten everything your all set . I reminded them to mark the driveshaft so it can be phased the same way when installed ( no vibrations) after saying that the service manager asked if I wanted to do the job - I told him I would feel better LOL . No I didn't watch
Two days probably because of the other work? I'll still wait til the fall when it's cooler. I don't know if I want to take the old trans to the drags or the new one??
YTD 2003 vs. 2002 CTS 38,235 vs. 25,876 deville 44,676 vs. 53,860 eldo 0 vs. 2721 seville 10,594 vs. 16,212 escalade 24,598 vs. 23,905 escalde esv 8782 vs. 0 escalde ext 7,410 vs. 11,477
TOTAL 135,457 vs. 134,051
Cadillac has built about 1400 more vehicles this year than last. But 3 of their vehicles are selling significantly less than they were a year before.
Looks like the CTS is basically carrying the whole company.
They have the momentum, I hope that the new cars coming out will be successful.
I think many people are waiting for the SRX and the new STS next year. CTS is a big hit for Cadillac so if they can get people to upgrade down the road sales should snowball over time.
I found that the CTS tires have a defect. When you drive over a screw that penetrates the tread, the tires GO FLAT!!!! I would have expected more from Cadillac. Very disappointing. But when you call OnStar, they send someone to put on the spare.
BTW, regarding the note about moisture in an '04 rear licence plate surround, I think it's due to a leak that allows moisture laden air to get in, not a rain leak. The moisture condenses as the temperature changes.
Given my experiences with my 2003 I think I might now be a loyal Cadillac owner. The service department has been the best I've ever dealt with and they treat me good at the dealership. I also LOVE my CTS and all the car's shortcomings are very minor compared to my last car.
Still...I don't know if I EVER see myself "Upgrading". If possible I'll trade my CTS in for the V series in a couple of years assuming the economy improves and I have more play money; that's a big "if" though considering one of this month's magazines predicted the MSRP would be around $53K and that Cadillac dealer's would try to jack up the price. A $55K car is way out of my price range at this point in my life...and the SRX looks great but by the time you option it out you're looking at around $50K for it. As for the XLR I don't see myself ever paying $80K for a car that has less horsepower than a Corvette, Mustang Cobra, or CTS-V. I'd rather have a Hummer H2 than an Escalade. If the new DTS drives anything like the current one it will be a cold day in H@!! before I "upgrade" to one of those. The STS is probably bigger than I would like and would probably be difficult to fit in my smallish garage. So...what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely that I'll EVER be upgrading and helping Cadillac out with a sales "snowball".
It's not surprising to me that the CTS is "carrying the whole company". Personally, before the CTS existed I would have never considered buying a new Cadillac. Now that I've owned the CTS for a year I can say that it's likely I'll buy another one in the future.
mcgreenx, I assume you're joking. Are you really complaining that the lack of runflat tires on a CTS is a defect? Dude, you need to get out more.
Hey, mannytranny, did you ever end up taking your CTS out to the drag strip? If so, what did it run? I was thinking about hauling mine out, and was looking at probably mid-16s (I'm at altitude), so I was tryingto get a sea-level baseline for comparison.
I don't like very large cars so I would also not likely ever move up to a STS if I had a CTS. That said I know people that go from 3 to 5 series BMWs so the potential for happy CTS owners to trade up is big IMO. That goes for the SRX and Caddy trucks also.
The 3-to-5-series paradigm doesn't apply with the CTS because the CTS is already as big as a 5er, and it's a very sizeable step up in size to the STS (which is as big as a 7er) from there.
The 5er is still a manageable car for those who don't want anything too big (like us) but the 7er is way too big, and it doesn't help that BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. won't bring in the short-wheelbase versions of their big models anymore.
If you're an M3 buyer, you're buying a smaller car, and you WANT a smaller car. There's three M3 demographics - the 'little sedan' bunch, the 'sports car' bunch, and the 'track hound' bunch. The former will cross-shop Audi S4s, maybe the C32 and the Scooby STi. The second is looking at Porsche Carreras or maybe the Z06 Vette. The third is looking at Scoobys, Z06 Vettes, Mitsu Evos.
Note that most of the above applies to coupe buyers, not convertible buyers, who seem to be a completely different demographic and one I haven't really figured out yet. The only real crossover there is probably with the Carrera.
The CTS-V is a different animal. Its most direct new-car competition is going to be the 6-speed 545i. If you're shopping the CTS-V, you're probably looking at used M5s, maybe the Audi A6 2.7T. Maybe the S4, maybe the C32. And a significant fraction of CTS-V buyers are going to be people who just want a big Detroit V8, period, though amongst that bunch there's always a few who can't understand why any car should cost more than $30K.
I think the CTS-V will sell like hot cakes for about the first 18 months then we will see discounting like any Cadillac. There will also be the guys who buy it as a 3rd or 4th car, keep it a few years then sell it. Another group will be the surgeons who are making 4-600K who buy thinking it will be the end all be all, and become dissatisfied because it does not have the interior materials or design that they are used to in a Benz or a M5. These guys will also sell it in a year or two. I think after a year there will be a nice supply of used CTS-Vs on the market.
I know a guy who had gone from a Civic to an Accord and now a Acura TL to accommodate the family. Not everyone wants an STS size car, but people who can afford it with growing families might. Perhaps not to the same extent as 3 series to 5, but there will be a captive market there.
the noise problem is in some manual transmissions . The steering recall was earlier this year( to a certain build date ) to check the torque values on certain bolts
All the 'toy' cars go through that. The E39 M5 started on that phase about late 2002. You had a few folks move over to Porsche C4s or 996TTs, or Benz S55s, now new E55s, etc. A lot of 'em are coming off lease, and to the end of their factory warranty. So a fair number of M5s are now on their second owners, or in some cases maybe third. Pricing on 2000 M5s is getting to be pretty attractive.
The question is what GM will do to keep the CTS-V fresh? More HP? SMG transmission? New bodywork? And when?
dindak -
There's definitely room for a larger car than the CTS. But how do you position the models in your lineup? The 5er is the 'family' BMW, the 7er is more of the banker's-commute-car.
IMO, the STS is about the "right size" car. The CTS is a bit on the smallish side and the Deville is a bit big. This ain't Europe so I don't really care about cars being 5 meters or less in length. With the ever increasing number(and size) of SUVs on the roads, I like knowing there is some substance in my vehicle. My guess is the next gen STS will probably come in a couple of inches shorter than the current model, but with a longer wheelbase. The current Seville's biggest problem is not it's size, but it's weight(it weighs 4000 lbs) and the fact that the weight is not at all evenly distributed between the front and the rear. Oh and it drives the wrong wheels. Still for a front heavy front driver, the STS is not a bad car, especially when it came out nearly 6 years ago.
> And a significant fraction of CTS-V buyers are >going to be people who just want a big Detroit > V8, period, though amongst that bunch there's >always a few who can't understand why any car >should cost more than $30K.
...that would be me. I want big Detroit V8 muscle and I DON'T understand why an optioned out CTS (not ANY car and not necessarily the CTS-V) should cost more than $30K. I DO understand why the CTS-v will cost more than $30k however...it's because idiots (myself included) are willing to pay that much for it!!
I actually don't find the current STS that big really. I'm not sure I would ever get one, but the current size does not push me away. The DTS seems huge on the other hand. It will be interesting to see the size of the new STS.
I got a coupon in the mail yesterday for C$750 off any GM car on top of anything else. It applies to 03 and 04 models. Unfortunately it applies only to people with competitive makes (which we don't have anymore) and we aren't going to be in the market until next year at the earliest.
a CTS and an STS, let me explain the difference from my point of view.
When I want to ride in a comfortable fast car, that will hold 4 or 5 adults. I'll take the STS. It's a lot faster than most people think and I do take advantage of that at stoplights. Some of our friends are getting up there in age and weight, so it's easier for them to get in and out of the back seat of the STS. It is not.... a big car by American standards and was shortened in 1998 for sale in the European market.
When I want to drive, really drive, I take the CTS. It handles so well, it feels like you become part of the car. Just like flying a fighter plane, you strap into the cockpit and zoom you're off. Then again, it's not that small. The CTS is similar in size to the BMW 5-Series, as others have pointed out.
Still, I'm jealous of anyone who bought an '04 CTS with the 3.6L engine. In my opinion, the CTS should have had the extra horses right from the get go.
Will I go for a CTS-V? Probably not, insurance rates will keep production of Cadillac's V-Series cars down to a "manageable number". After all, the CTS-V was meant to bring you into the showroom, so that you would buy a CTS.
The STS will probably be traded for a year old SRX, when the dealer gets one off lease. The again, there's always the lottery.
Your right about the STS being faster than most people think. Thats kind of why I like it so much as most folks think it's just some fuddy duddy old man's Cadillac when in reality, it will haul a**. And the interior is just pure luxury.
I have fond memories the way my 95 Eldorado ETC would accelerate. I am happy with the power of my Manual trans CTS (the manual isnt that much slower than the 3.6 ). It's plenty quick at highway speeds and keeps me away from too many speeding tickets
The problem with the STS is that it's fairly fast from, say, 30 to 120 in a more or less straight line. Above 120 its chassis tuning isn't in the BMW/Benz class, and it doesn't have the balance or grip to turn well.
This is why the CTS is RWD, and why future Cadillacs should be RWD, the HP expectations of the marketplace in the US are just so far beyond what FWD can handle comfortably.
I've considered a used STS many times as the resale on those things is almost as bad as on our Oldsmobiles. Not good for the person who bought one new, but a windfall for those considering used. I will say though, with the very attractive lease deals and super low interest rates on new cars, it's hard not to seriously consider buying new, even if it isn't as posh as a Seville.
I haven't been to the drags since last October and even then I only had two runs of any significance.I never got the final run in as they shut down for the day. The track is open only on Friday nights and it's either too humid or thunderstorming. I'm waiting again for the cooler fall weather and hope to get there on a Saturday in late Sept. or early Oct. I've been practicing quick starts at traffic lights so that I'm ready. The CTS has a really light touch clutch and I don't want to RED LIGHT so I need the practice. Plus now with 9700 miles on the car it may or may not make a difference in times. We'll see........
You have a good point with the brakes($). With all the added features on the V series it could easily add $10-12K to the price of a regular CTS...still, assuming the CTS is worth about $30K you're talking a $42K price tag NOT $52K as the one magazine described. Bottom line though is the CTS is a great car and it looks fantastic...they can probably charge a premium for style.
One concern of mine is the short blurb on the upcoming STS in this month's car and driver. It mentioned that Lutz is planning on "softening" the lines on Cadillacs over the next couple of years. In my opinion this would be a big mistake...I think one of the big selling points is it's distinctive sharp-edged look. IMO if GM looses the "edge" they will also loose their profit margin on these cars. I hope I can get into the CTS-v before they change the styling.
However all of the development costs will have to be amortized. Wheels, additional structural changes and gusseting, brakes, cooling, interior changes, ext. changes. etc. etc. That costs a LOT of money. I wouldn't be surprised if the development costs for the "V" series was in the 10's of millions of dollars.
I have told this story before, but when Chevrolet decided to give the Camaro SS a new 17" 10 spoke wheel to supplement the 5 spoke ZR1 style wheel they spent 1.2 million dollars!! Evidently the aluminum they used didn't take well to polishing so they had to go back to the drawing board. Think about how many Camaros they had to sell to get back that 1.2M.
As far as the V costing 50K it is worth it. I am guessing that the LS6 costs less to manufacture than the 3.6L. But performance comes at a price. Remember a 4.3L Mercedes costs the same to build as a 5.0L Mercedes. Msrp is about 8-10K higher. Even with the additional equipment that the 5.0 has it is still a cash cow for Mercedes.
Nothing that sells in the kinds of numbers proposed for the CTS-V can be considered 'highly profitable' by GM standards.
On a unit-by-unit basis, they will make some money, but they're not going to make enough of them to rate. They'll give some of it back, too, on warranty clutch and transmission replacements because folks will be out trying to do a 13-flat quarter-mile, and because a certain proportion of the potential buyers for the car haven't driven a manual transmission since they were nineteen (if ever.)
But it's the price Cadillac has to pay to sit at the table with the big boys, to be taken seriously when someone goes looking for a serious sports sedan.
Thought I read somewhere (anyone else remember seeing this??) that they were going to keep the production numbers low for the CTSv, which, if true, would seem to indicate they are viewing it as a "niche" car rather than a profit maker. Of course, that could/probably would change in an instant if the demand took a spike and appeared to remain high. I suspect that the customer base in the CTSv price range is relatively small, especially when competing with the European and SUV drivers. It also wouldn't surprise me to find out that GM's view on the "V" is more like "let's try it and see where it goes", based on the popularity (however transient that may or may not be) on the regular CTS. The industry is profit driven and unless sales of the "V" make their minimum, consistently, I fear it could be a shortlived variation of the CTS line. Still, I'd love to have one even though it's (also) outside of my comfort level price wise. If for no other reason than "just 'cuz!" (Just maybe, if I can beat Richw5 on the lottery thing).
IMO narrower market segments and lower per-model volumes is where the industry is going. It's the manufacturers that can come to peace with that who will win.
BMW sold just under 300K E39 5-series models a year worldwide, but that's sliced up across seven different basic engines (gasoline and diesel), at least five different transmissions, and a pile of stuff that has to be different for each national market. I don't quite know how many different combinations will be offered on the E60 yet, some aren't available yet.
I don't think it'll be shortlived. It's a halo car.. even if they don't break even on the V's directly, it's advertising that boosts sales of the base models, which covers the gap in profit. If they were to drop the V down the road, they'd see a drop in base CTS sales, as well.
It's true that certain model lines are continued even though there's a small market for them..and they are underwritten by sales of their lesser relatives. I'd suspect (although I don't know the numbers to back it up) that the Corvette is kind of in this group (like I'd guess the CTSv would be also). However, in the end, I'd surmise there is a bottom line sales number that has to be met on a consistent basis for those models to continue in production. I'd use the early-mid 90's Impala's/Caprices to illustrate. Towards the end, the police and taxi drivers loved those cars. But the "civilian" market didn't (although I'm sure a fair number were sold there too.) In the end, though, the "specialty" market for those cars was not enough to keep the line alive. (There was even a group of investors who seriously looked at buying the dies for those cars with the idea that they would continue making them year after year for the cops and cabbies. Their research showed that that market alone, along with some civilian sales thrown in, was not enough to make their plan profitable.) Anyway, even agreeing that the "V" is the halo car, etc...it still will need to maintain some sort of basic sales goal or, as with any car model, it will go away. They will only underwrite a model so far and so long. Just how long that longevity will be is an unknown. This is not, by any means, meant to be criticism of the "V". The whole longevity concept is, afterall, generic to any and all car models being made.
Just wanted to give add some clarification. The RWD GM sedans were killed off in '96 due to the '97 side impact regulations. GM didn't want to spend anymore money on the platform to bring it up to spec. All of the doors and the Bpillar needed complete redesigning.
Gm never seriously considered selling the dies to any one. Too much liability on their part and the car still needed significant redesigning. Plus it would have been in competition.
Several posts back discuss the importance of CTS-V as a halo car. I just think that the halo car thing is oversold. I'll have a solid lineup without a halo car, rather than a weak lineup with a halo car. It's a myth perpetuated by Detroit executives to justify their costly dream projects.
Toyota and Honda have no halo car, yet they're selling like gangbusters. Chrysler has the Viper and can't stop losing money. I suspect the greatest effect the GT has on Ford is that it costs a fortune in R&D. Each model has to sell itself. Nobody buys the Malibu because the Corvette heads the lineup. And just because Toyota no longer makes the Supra is no reason for anyone to stay away from the Camry.
Nissan has a halo car in the Z, but the Altima and Maxima are so much more important to Nissan's fortune and revival.
Halo cars work better on the model that they're derived from. Such as the Z06 spurring base C5 Corvette sales, or the Cobra spurring base and GT Mustang sales. A 350Z won't rub off on Maxima sales, different kinds of cars.
Comments
1. a rap song from the rapper B.G. of the group Hot Boyz reffering to the glistening of chrome/diamonds, because of the songs popularity (I'm sure no one on this board has ever heard it
oldsman01: twikes
anyone got an idea on when CTS-V coming out? I was told by a dealer that it wasn't until sring 04...but by further research I think they thought I was reffering to 04 STS
I was dropping off my CTS for a new manual transmission and I noticed that of the eight 04 CTS on the lot NONE had a body color rear plate bezel . When are they supposed to be body color .
The dealer had a silver Lux sport on the floor ....10K mi no nav asking 32900 .
Also, the Kronix Virus IS a great looking wheel but like most of the wheels I've found it's only 7.5 inches wide...unless I want to go to 20" "dubs".
b4z: When I was at the dealer they gave me a pamphlet on the SRX. I picked it up because my Dad is interested in possibly buying a SRX if they arrive on the dealer lots anytime soon. The literature was interesting because it was actually for the dealers (not the consumer). It compared the SRX to the other SUV's in it's class and described the target buyer (if my memory serves me right it was age 50-60 with an anual income of $150K) which was much older and much more wealthy than myself. They also had a nice article in this month's Car and Driver on the SRX. If I could afford one I'd trade in the family station wagon (PT Cruiser) and buy an SRX for my wife in a heartbeat! I still like my main vehicle to be a car though, and the CTS has plenty of room for Me + Spouse + Baby + 2 Passengers.
golfnut5: Did the service department give you a hassle about replacing the instrument cluster...and do you know if there was a TSB on the clock fix?
1. They replaced the manual trans . The noise is gone . It even seems to shift better .
2.I had mentioned that during a cold start the starter drive seemed to hang on a bit to long . They replaced the starter.
3. I requested the steering recall be performed ,they did
4 . They are 0 for 2 on having a Cadillac as a loaner car
How long did it take? Did you watch at all?
I'll still wait til the fall when it's cooler. I don't know if I want to take the old trans to the drags or the new one??
YTD 2003 vs. 2002
CTS 38,235 vs. 25,876
deville 44,676 vs. 53,860
eldo 0 vs. 2721
seville 10,594 vs. 16,212
escalade 24,598 vs. 23,905
escalde esv 8782 vs. 0
escalde ext 7,410 vs. 11,477
TOTAL
135,457 vs. 134,051
Cadillac has built about 1400 more vehicles this year than last.
But 3 of their vehicles are selling significantly less than they were a year before.
Looks like the CTS is basically carrying the whole company.
They have the momentum, I hope that the new cars coming out will be successful.
BTW, regarding the note about moisture in an '04 rear licence plate surround, I think it's due to a leak that allows moisture laden air to get in, not a rain leak. The moisture condenses as the temperature changes.
Still...I don't know if I EVER see myself "Upgrading". If possible I'll trade my CTS in for the V series in a couple of years assuming the economy improves and I have more play money; that's a big "if" though considering one of this month's magazines predicted the MSRP would be around $53K and that Cadillac dealer's would try to jack up the price. A $55K car is way out of my price range at this point in my life...and the SRX looks great but by the time you option it out you're looking at around $50K for it. As for the XLR I don't see myself ever paying $80K for a car that has less horsepower than a Corvette, Mustang Cobra, or CTS-V. I'd rather have a Hummer H2 than an Escalade. If the new DTS drives anything like the current one it will be a cold day in H@!! before I "upgrade" to one of those. The STS is probably bigger than I would like and would probably be difficult to fit in my smallish garage. So...what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely that I'll EVER be upgrading and helping Cadillac out with a sales "snowball".
It's not surprising to me that the CTS is "carrying the whole company". Personally, before the CTS existed I would have never considered buying a new Cadillac. Now that I've owned the CTS for a year I can say that it's likely I'll buy another one in the future.
Hey, mannytranny, did you ever end up taking your CTS out to the drag strip? If so, what did it run? I was thinking about hauling mine out, and was looking at probably mid-16s (I'm at altitude), so I was tryingto get a sea-level baseline for comparison.
We are obviously in a facetious free zone.
Perhaps you could warn us next time with a preface.
"My next sentence is facetious."
The 5er is still a manageable car for those who don't want anything too big (like us) but the 7er is way too big, and it doesn't help that BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. won't bring in the short-wheelbase versions of their big models anymore.
Anyone have any experience with these items?
If you're an M3 buyer, you're buying a smaller car, and you WANT a smaller car. There's three M3 demographics - the 'little sedan' bunch, the 'sports car' bunch, and the 'track hound' bunch. The former will cross-shop Audi S4s, maybe the C32 and the Scooby STi. The second is looking at Porsche Carreras or maybe the Z06 Vette. The third is looking at Scoobys, Z06 Vettes, Mitsu Evos.
Note that most of the above applies to coupe buyers, not convertible buyers, who seem to be a completely different demographic and one I haven't really figured out yet. The only real crossover there is probably with the Carrera.
The CTS-V is a different animal. Its most direct new-car competition is going to be the 6-speed 545i. If you're shopping the CTS-V, you're probably looking at used M5s, maybe the Audi A6 2.7T. Maybe the S4, maybe the C32. And a significant fraction of CTS-V buyers are going to be people who just want a big Detroit V8, period, though amongst that bunch there's always a few who can't understand why any car should cost more than $30K.
Adding to your buyer demographics:
I think the CTS-V will sell like hot cakes for about the first 18 months then we will see discounting like any Cadillac.
There will also be the guys who buy it as a 3rd or 4th car, keep it a few years then sell it.
Another group will be the surgeons who are making 4-600K who buy thinking it will be the end all be all, and become dissatisfied because it does not have the interior materials or design that they are used to in a Benz or a M5.
These guys will also sell it in a year or two.
I think after a year there will be a nice supply of used CTS-Vs on the market.
Did I see a someone say stearing recall? Details please.
All the 'toy' cars go through that. The E39 M5 started on that phase about late 2002. You had a few folks move over to Porsche C4s or 996TTs, or Benz S55s, now new E55s, etc. A lot of 'em are coming off lease, and to the end of their factory warranty. So a fair number of M5s are now on their second owners, or in some cases maybe third. Pricing on 2000 M5s is getting to be pretty attractive.
The question is what GM will do to keep the CTS-V fresh? More HP? SMG transmission? New bodywork? And when?
dindak -
There's definitely room for a larger car than the CTS. But how do you position the models in your lineup? The 5er is the 'family' BMW, the 7er is more of the banker's-commute-car.
>going to be people who just want a big Detroit
> V8, period, though amongst that bunch there's
>always a few who can't understand why any car
>should cost more than $30K.
...that would be me. I want big Detroit V8 muscle and I DON'T understand why an optioned out CTS (not ANY car and not necessarily the CTS-V) should cost more than $30K. I DO understand why the CTS-v will cost more than $30k however...it's because idiots (myself included) are willing to pay that much for it!!
I got a coupon in the mail yesterday for C$750 off any GM car on top of anything else. It applies to 03 and 04 models. Unfortunately it applies only to people with competitive makes (which we don't have anymore) and we aren't going to be in the market until next year at the earliest.
When I want to ride in a comfortable fast car, that will hold 4 or 5 adults. I'll take the STS. It's a lot faster than most people think and I do take advantage of that at stoplights. Some of our friends are getting up there in age and weight, so it's easier for them to get in and out of the back seat of the STS. It is not.... a big car by American standards and was shortened in 1998 for sale in the European market.
When I want to drive, really drive, I take the CTS. It handles so well, it feels like you become part of the car. Just like flying a fighter plane, you strap into the cockpit and zoom you're off. Then again, it's not that small. The CTS is similar in size to the BMW 5-Series, as others have pointed out.
Still, I'm jealous of anyone who bought an '04 CTS with the 3.6L engine. In my opinion, the CTS should have had the extra horses right from the get go.
Will I go for a CTS-V? Probably not, insurance rates will keep production of Cadillac's V-Series cars down to a "manageable number". After all, the CTS-V was meant to bring you into the showroom, so that you would buy a CTS.
The STS will probably be traded for a year old SRX, when the dealer gets one off lease. The again, there's always the lottery.
I think there will be ADP for 18 months and then you should be able to get it for sticker.
This is why the CTS is RWD, and why future Cadillacs should be RWD, the HP expectations of the marketplace in the US are just so far beyond what FWD can handle comfortably.
One concern of mine is the short blurb on the upcoming STS in this month's car and driver. It mentioned that Lutz is planning on "softening" the lines on Cadillacs over the next couple of years. In my opinion this would be a big mistake...I think one of the big selling points is it's distinctive sharp-edged look. IMO if GM looses the "edge" they will also loose their profit margin on these cars. I hope I can get into the CTS-v before they change the styling.
However all of the development costs will have to be amortized. Wheels, additional structural changes and gusseting, brakes, cooling, interior changes, ext. changes. etc. etc.
That costs a LOT of money. I wouldn't be surprised if the development costs for the "V" series was in the 10's of millions of dollars.
I have told this story before, but when Chevrolet decided to give the Camaro SS a new 17" 10 spoke wheel to supplement the 5 spoke ZR1 style wheel they spent 1.2 million dollars!! Evidently the
aluminum they used didn't take well to polishing so they had to go back to the drawing board.
Think about how many Camaros they had to sell to get back that 1.2M.
As far as the V costing 50K it is worth it.
I am guessing that the LS6 costs less to manufacture than the 3.6L. But performance comes at a price.
Remember a 4.3L Mercedes costs the same to build as a 5.0L Mercedes. Msrp is about 8-10K higher.
Even with the additional equipment that the 5.0 has it is still a cash cow for Mercedes.
On a unit-by-unit basis, they will make some money, but they're not going to make enough of them to rate. They'll give some of it back, too, on warranty clutch and transmission replacements because folks will be out trying to do a 13-flat quarter-mile, and because a certain proportion of the potential buyers for the car haven't driven a manual transmission since they were nineteen (if ever.)
But it's the price Cadillac has to pay to sit at the table with the big boys, to be taken seriously when someone goes looking for a serious sports sedan.
BMW sold just under 300K E39 5-series models a year worldwide, but that's sliced up across seven different basic engines (gasoline and diesel), at least five different transmissions, and a pile of stuff that has to be different for each national market. I don't quite know how many different combinations will be offered on the E60 yet, some aren't available yet.
I'd use the early-mid 90's Impala's/Caprices to illustrate. Towards the end, the police and taxi drivers loved those cars. But the "civilian" market didn't (although I'm sure a fair number were sold there too.) In the end, though, the "specialty" market for those cars was not enough to keep the line alive. (There was even a group of investors who seriously looked at buying the dies for those cars with the idea that they would continue making them year after year for the cops and cabbies. Their research showed that that market alone, along with some civilian sales thrown in, was not enough to make their plan profitable.)
Anyway, even agreeing that the "V" is the halo car, etc...it still will need to maintain some sort of basic sales goal or, as with any car model, it will go away. They will only underwrite a model so far and so long. Just how long that longevity will be is an unknown. This is not, by any means, meant to be criticism of the "V". The whole longevity concept is, afterall, generic to any and all car models being made.
The RWD GM sedans were killed off in '96 due to the '97 side impact regulations.
GM didn't want to spend anymore money on the platform to bring it up to spec.
All of the doors and the Bpillar needed complete redesigning.
Gm never seriously considered selling the dies to any one. Too much liability on their part and the car still needed significant redesigning.
Plus it would have been in competition.
Toyota and Honda have no halo car, yet they're selling like gangbusters. Chrysler has the Viper and can't stop losing money. I suspect the greatest effect the GT has on Ford is that it costs a fortune in R&D. Each model has to sell itself. Nobody buys the Malibu because the Corvette heads the lineup. And just because Toyota no longer makes the Supra is no reason for anyone to stay away from the Camry.
Nissan has a halo car in the Z, but the Altima and Maxima are so much more important to Nissan's fortune and revival.