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Comments
Folks, you know the drill -- stop arguing about opinions. It is senseless to try to "make" someone adopt your opinion when that person's opinion is opposite of yours.
Calm down. As spleck said, the objective of this forum is to discuss issues, good and bad between the cars.
There are way too many heated opinions flying around here that are being stated -and argued over and over again - as fact.
Lighten up.
Under normal driving conditions there is no torque steer, so under those conditions there is nothing to overcome. However, if one has the need to flat foot from a dead stop frequently then you best white knuckle that steering wheel 'cause it is squirrelly.
Neither vehicle, imo is a bad choice, both come from reliable makes. It all depends what you are looking for.
Hmm, do the math, 1.6 percentage equates to less then 2 out a hundred cars that are affected, but yet you are attempting to make it an issue with potential accord buyers. Keep digging pal!
"This sort of insolence cost the Altima dearly in our mainstream-sedan comparison test last month, helping relegate it to a sixth-place tie, and we're disappointed to see the same symptoms manifested so clearly in the new Maxima. Audi has a well-publicized suspension geometry that quells this kind of thing, and most of the other players in the front-drive, high-torque category have dealt with it to a reasonably satisfactory extent. So why not Nissan?It raises questions about possible cost-cutting measures necessary for an aggressive model-rollout strategy."
Hmmm, interesting...
BTW... show me any documentation that says that Honda/Acura has officially solved it's tranny problems. Without any "fix" or change, logic would dictate that Honda/Acura still has the problem with 2003 models. I dunno where you are getting your percentages, but from reading posts at Honda/Acura boards the number of tranny failures is large enough to keep me (and others like me) from buying the product.
C&D always complains about torque steer because they almost always pick the winners of comparison tests that are the most "fun" to drive, not necessarily the cars that are the best for a certain segment. A recent example is a test of economy cars where the Protege won because it had the best handling , and most fun to drive, despite them saying it is a fair passenger hauler that has a hard ride for passengers, and is noisy inside ("We may say that we have your best transportation interests is mind, but when its time to vote, the winner is always the one that's most fun for us to drive"). C&D doesn't always look out for what is most important for buyers in a certain segment, and IMO is the least connected auto mag. when it comes to knowing what buyers find important.
speedracer: The new Accord does not even use the same transmission as the Accord V6 that was affected by the transmission problems. The new Accords use a 5-speed automatic while 98-02 Accords used a 4-speed automatic. So I guess logic dictates that the problem has been solved for the 2003 model year.
Regardless, there have been very few posts of transmission failures since Honda tracked the problem down to a supplier and began replacing the affected transmissions. Out of 1 million cars they say that maybe 2.0% will be affected, that's 20,000 cars, if even 1% of those people post here then you would have 200 complaints on Edmunds.
As for the transmission being the same, I believe it is a mostly different unit but I could be wrong.
A problem that a manufacturer acknowledges, extends the warranty, and repairs/replaces is much different than a cheap design that Nissan's marketing tries to tout as a superior design (rear beam) or the buyers ignore (torque steer--which as someone said above has been reduced by many other manufactures).
The tranny issue stems from a sub-standard part supplied to Honda that degrades quickly resulting in sub-par performance and sometimes failure. As you've heard, I believe this supplier accounted for a certain percentage of the parts (the 1.6% number?). Apparently, Honda now knows who the supplier is and either they have corrected their problem, or Honda no longer uses that supplier. Considering the part and supplier have never been officially named, I would imagine the problem was corrected and continued business was arranged (Honda most likely dictating new terms). Releasing the supplier's name would damage their business, lead to countersuits against Honda, and remove a potentially indebted source from Honda's pool.
In related news, Nissan has much of a head start on the fun-to-drive category as they have a V6 with MT sedan. It's nice that Honda is offering a V6 MT in the Coupe (which I bought), but you're right, the Max will win on fun-to-drive almost on that alone. Hopefully, Honda will recognize the demand, albeit small, for V6 MTs in their sedans.
First, torque steer is nearly inevitable in a front wheel drive car with a very powerful engine. Car manufacturers can try to control the amount of torque steer by tunning but after a certain point the laws of physics just take over. I think the biggest dissapointment for Maxima enthusiasts is that the 6th generation model will have a boost in power but will still be FWD. Nissan is supposedly working on a AWD version of the Maxima but no word if it will ever make it to production. Ofcouse, all RWD vehicles that Nissan makes are going to be marketed through the Infinti badge. It is a shame that Acura does not follow suit. BTW...the demand for 6 cylinder sport sedans with MT is greater than you think. I read somewhere that BMW sells more 3 series with MT than automatics.
Using equal length half shafts seems to help. I believe Honda and Audi use unequal length halfshafts, but with different torsional rigidity so that the overall twist of the shafts are equal. The next problem is ensuring that both wheels have equal power applied, which often depends on traction. There are also a number of other techniques to help eliminate torque steer... I've heard proper placement of steering centerline, tweaks to power steering, etc (I've heard non-power steering is hardly affected?)
The point is that Nissan doesn't seem to be implementing as many techniques as other manufacturers. If you read Nissan forums, there's often quite a fuss about it. Just as in the Honda forums there's quite a fuss about transmissions, or rattles.
I believe in the US, something like 15% of cars sold are MT versus 50% in Europe. Considering BMW is the most popular brand in many parts of Europe, I think that would affect the ratio for their sales. Personally, I hope the demand in the US grows, despite the previous trends that suggest MT overall is on the decline due to vastly improved AT (5 and 6 speed ATs, CVT, sportshift, etc... for example the AT CRV gets better MPG than the MT) and increases in time spent in heavy traffic. Hopefully, the recent popularity of economy super cars (Turbo Neons, sport hatchbacks, etc) and the better MPG in most cases will bring about a small upswing in MT sales.
In any case, if Honda put a MT in the V6 sedan and Nissan fixes their across-the-line torque steer problems, we'd all be better off due to improved competition.
I think we'll see an RL with rear-biased AWD within a few years. If so, I'm positive that at least front-biased AWD will make appearances in the TL and the Accord (obviously only the V6).
The reality is that Honda doesn't want to spend the money to develop an engine that they won't sell in Japan, will have limited application in the US, would have different balancing issues than a 4/6 cylinder and other problems, and will damage their reputation as selling clean burning, efficient engines. I have no doubt Honda would do it right, but the press is not so rational and the public is finicky--that's what they're afraid of.
I think the RWD and AWD will come though... that's what the mass market is demanding... much more than V8s to replace 240-260 hp V6s.
Bad trannies can happen to any manufacturer. The smart consumer usually knows better to stay away from a manufacturer that is having "known" problems until the manufacturer gets them fixed. Ofcourse this relates to trannies or anything else. I for one was set on getting an Audi A4 for my next car until I found out the huge problem Audi/VW is having with their ignition coils (they are recalling over 500,000) cars. Call me cautious, but I would feel more comfortable when all these tranny troubles blow over for Honda before I start looking at the brand again.
BTW, I too was seriously considering the A4 until I sat in one. That car is tiny! The back seat is barely big enough for 2 people. And the way the centre consoles intrudes into the back really impedes movement in the back seat from one side to the other. I have trouble visualizing a family of 4 being comfortable on an extended trip in the car.
What would interest me as a consumer is the philosophy of the carmaker when it does learn of its product's defects.
Typically car companies are in denial, then act only when complaints reach critical mass.
By then, they'll say something like "defect rate is only 1.6%, the industry average is 2.5%."
This mentality has the effect of institutionalizing mediocrity in the way we do things; sooner or later everyone - consumer and vendor alike - is thankful that "it's only 1.6%."
I believe as consumers we should not accept quality compromises. The quest for "zero defect" is something that should be sustained.
I have a question:
Why does everyone marvel so much about the HP for Accord: 240 HP, 212 lb/ft Torque.
Do you people realize that when we talk about performance there are two different ways to measure it?
First is stand still launch 0-60, and then the top speed, which is BTW limited for both cars. The torque my friends is the main important part that makes your car move from standstill, not your HP rating, HP is good to know when you need to find out how fast your car can go, provided all other factors are the same.
In addition, Achieving those levels (hp, torque, emissions) with a displacement of 3.0 in comparison to the altima which has a displacement of 3.5 and achieves 5 more horsepower, runs on premium and gets worse gas mileage. Thats a technological feat to say the least.
However, did you notice that the same 3.5 VQ engine makes 290 HP and 280 lb/ft for the 350Z,
marketing is the only answer for that.
3.5 VQ engine is by far more superior then the
3.0 VTEC from Honda, no argument there.
As far as the Mazda RX-8 is concerned, did you happen to notice that it is a rear wheel drive car, with 50/50 weight distribution, wider performance tires, and most important - a lot lighter? No?, Oh well, lets stick to the Honda and Nissan discussion, no need to bring other "super" cars into it - this would be the same as saying that my Nissan 350-Z will blow the doors of your accord, but you already know that, don't you.
I did not make an uneducated guess about the performance and the torque role in it, I happen to be a mechanical engineer and I can tell you, that when it comes to engines - the most important rating after HP, is your breakaway torque - which plays enormous role in the straight line startups.
Mazda will be faster due to high rev range of 9000 r.p.m, just like Honda s2000, which is by the way beaten by 350-Z.
P.S
I like accords, I have driven couple of them and some camries, still
Maxima is my choice, maybe when I'll get married and stop giving s..t
of what I drive - I'll get the accord, for my wife, like most people on this forum do.
I get so much attention - awesome.
It's fast, but I had to put it in the garage and drive Pathfinder all this time - too much snow, plus I hate to get the salt on that beautiful black skin of my 350. Can't wait for summer time
so I can take it on a highway and open it up..
So the 2002 Accord EX was a mistake to YOU .. doesn't mean it's the wrong choice for everyone. Especially with gas prices going up the roof. I'd rather have money in my pocket than be able to boast a 1 or 2 second advantage to 60.
The fact that the '03 Max can be compared to the latest and greatest Accord says a lot about the outdated blah blah Max to me. I personally wouldn't drive an 03 Accord if it was given to me because of the way it looks (Don't go saying I said *everyone* thinks it looks bad! Save your breath) I think the outdated Max looks better. The 04 Max looks better too although its supposed to be in a different league than both.