Diesel vs. Gasoline
I started this conference to consolidate numerous
conference postings related to engine choice and
the pros and cons.
Which is better a Cummins Turbo Diesel or V10 Gas
Engine for daily driving, and highway, with about
30,000 miles a year (50% highway)? This would be
on a 2500 Ram QC LB, or other 3/4 ton, like the new
F-250?
--Ryan
conference postings related to engine choice and
the pros and cons.
Which is better a Cummins Turbo Diesel or V10 Gas
Engine for daily driving, and highway, with about
30,000 miles a year (50% highway)? This would be
on a 2500 Ram QC LB, or other 3/4 ton, like the new
F-250?
--Ryan
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The deciding factor for me was that my current F250 is 8 years old and I have only put 56,000 miles on it. To offset the cost of the diesel engine, in my area, you would have to drive 80,000 miles to pay for the diesel, based on the extra gas mileage of the diesel. I don't tow a big trailer and don't come close to the 80,000 mile point. So, I went with the V-10.
I'm not knocking the diesel, it is a great engine. My brother in law and his brother both have F350 diesel crew cabs. It may be a better choice for you since you will be driving 30K a year and if you pull a trailer, it would be a better choice. In my case, the V-10 is the better choice. Good luck with the decision!
Where did you find a V-10 option for $285 v $3700 for the diesel? When I started looking the difference was between $2900 and $3000 for the diesel.
Airwolf,
I chose the diesel after talking to several people who work with dynamos and the diesel was the hands down choice from all of them. Still, the diesel will take some getting used to, but we have a boat that we tow over several mountain passes and the big block just will not pull the same as the oil burner.
In the local area (Colorado) the resale on the diesel is still worth the initial investment. But be sure you are getting what meets your needs, not what everyone else is getting.
Hope this helps.
DKG
Have you tried looking at Kelly Blue Book's site www.kbb.com or Edmunds site for the prices? The invoice price for the V-10 is $285 and the diesel is $3778. This is for the Ford 1999 trucks. I don't know if Ford has ever sold the diesel for as little as $2900. I didn't check the prices of the Dodge engines. I know the Ford's because I ordered a 1999 F250 with the V-10.
Permit me a bit of sarcasm here....
If you're anything like the rest of us; your Honda will sit in the driveway with (eventually) flat tires while your diesel Ram will be turing over 600K miles.
Oops, I was only referring to the Dodge Prices. The $2900 was the difference from the Dodge V-10 to the Cummins Diesel.
DKG
1996 Dodge Ram 3/4 Club cab 8' bed
60,000 miles, manual trans, SLT package, Power Windows, locks steering, Tilt Wheel, Cruise, AM/FM cassette, leather, sliding rear window and Four Wheel Drive.
I kept all the above factors consistent but changed the engine. Prices are as follows
V8 Gas 21,230
v10 Gas 21,365
diesel 23,730
Thats 2,365 more for the diesel than the v10 if my calculations are correct. So I believe much of the intial investment for the diesel could be recouped if the Kelly Blue Book prices are realistic. Now I do realize that 60000 is a lot of miles for a truck that new for a lot of people and I don't know why I picked that milage I just did. I don't know if the price difference between the engines changes as the milage goes one way or the other or not.
Out of curiousity, I ran a similar test after reading your post, except I used a 95 Dodge and ran the mileage at 120,000 and 150,000. Since the diesel engines last longer without overhauls, I figured it would be reflected in the values at the higher mileage. Twas not the case. At market value, the diesel had $2,165 over the V-10. At trade-in value, the difference was $1,575. My guess is that there really is a larger difference in what someone might be willing to pay for a high mileage vehicle with those two engines. I mean, I wouldn't be expecting to get too much for a gas engine vehicle with 150,000 miles on it.
1) I must say that I usually put 30,000 or so miles a year on my vehicles, although that will probably decrease over the next few years. Even though the initial cost of the diesel is +$3,000 more, the tradein cost more than makes up for it in my opinion, considering the use you'll get.
I hope that this truck will last me for years, and I think that the reliability of a well-maintained diesel is worth the additional cost.
2) My needs are balanced with what is the best for money. True, I will use it mainly for onroad, to and from work, driving, but when I really need it offroad or pulling a boat, I'd like to know that I'm not straining the engine. So I think that diesel would still be better, right?
3) Fuel - the nearest large truck stop is 30 miles north of here, so everytime I go to the airport, I could fill up, so that won't be a problem. But you all are right, truck stops are the way to go. Not only is fuel cheaper, it's fresher.
Thanks all.
Secondly, longevity is not as big an advantage over gas motors. Do you realize the advances in engineering the past 6 or 7 years. Todays gas engines, Chevy, Ford, Dodge, all are very solid built motors. I know a friend who did moderate towing, mostly driving with a 302 Ford, and got 300,000 miles before he rebuilt. I know several people who drive Chevy 350's into the 200-300K mile range. Gas technology has gasoline trucks getting 15-20 mpg. Mine is a Chevy 350, I get 18 highway. My dad drives a crew cab with 454 that gets 14. If it's power you want, the Dodge and Ford V10 won't get that good, but why do you have an engine that big unless you are pulling?
With gasoline mileages as high as they are now, i don't see longevity being a big enough factor to fork over an extra $3000. I love diesels too, maybe i'm just a tight wad. anyway, just wanted to put in a different opinion. I hope everyone enjoys there truck whatever they have.
cdean
You're not off base in your opinion at all. The one thing I would debate with you is the cause of the longevity. A properly maintained engine will always outlive the truck - regardless of its fuel. Depending on where you live (I'm in the northeast, thus the Road Salt Belt), the body will probably fall apart long before the engine will if you do you fluid and filter changes the way your driving dictates.
Out at my dad's job, they used to have a mid-80s Dodge W350, 360 V8 and 727 automatic, that would not die. The bed was so beat up that the tailgate would no longer open. But it started every morning, even when newer trucks had trouble with cold weather. When the body rot finally got to the point where the truck was unsafe, they finally got rid of it, but it wasn't because of the powertrain.
I opted for the Cummins in my Dodge because I know from experience, I go through tuneups in a gas engine at nearlty one a year. And when I say tune up, I mean the good old fashioned tune up, not just a plug change. I'd get plugs, cap, rotor, and air-fuel-PCV filters annually, and spark wires every other year. With the diesel, I don't have to worry about anything but filters and clean motor oil. Yeah it's 10 quarts instead of 5, but oil isn't nearly as expensive as those tuneups were running me.
I've been out of town for 3 days and there has been a lot of posting here since I left. When I checked the trade-in on the diesel, I used a 1990 model. I would have suspected that if you trade in a fairly new truck, you would have been given more for the diesel than $1000. But when the question was asked about the trade-in amount on the diesel after 80,000 miles, I think it is fair to assume that the truck is more than two years old. If you check the Dodge Ram 2500 1990 model crew cab with the options you specified with 20,000 miles, you will find that for the:
V-8 5.9 you get $6400
diesel you get $7400
only $1000 difference...not the same amount that you would have paid for it.
PS: Thanks for the site on the roll-up bed covers in the other topic.
I have just a couple of points to argue on what you said. New gas motors advertise no tune ups for 100,000 miles. This means you don't pay anything or do anything for 100,000, other than filters and fluids. This makes the diesel maintenance twice as expensive. Technology in gas engines has gotten to the point where the tune-up is basically changing the spark plugs and then plugging in a diagnostic computer and doing checks.
Here is the kicker though. What is the biggest long term cost on gas motor? Say spark plugs, wires, rotor. probably cost little over $100 per 100,000 mile period if they go out that fast, (which in my experience they last longer). Have you had any experience with longterm diesel costs? I have friends in industry, and friends with Ford Powerstroke personal trucks that have found out that sometime after 100,000 miles (out of warranty), those high-tech powerstroke injectors quit working. I know of 8 different powerstroke owners who had to pay $800-900 per injector, at the tune of about 4 or 5 bad injectors per truck. Thats a cost of about 3-4 thousand in repair. I have contacts in the fuel pump repair service that tell me the Chevy diesel fuel pumps, which are extremely high-tech, cost about $1300 out of warranty. I can't make any claims on the Cummins, because I don't really know anyone who has a lot of miles on one.
Point is, these diesels are great performers, but they cost you to buy them, and cost more to maintain them for the long haul. I hope for you, kcram, that the reason i haven't heard any common failures on the Cummins is because there isn't any. If that were the case, then Cummins gets a major knod over the other diesels, and maybe even over gas.
cdean
ps. thanks kirkpama for reiterating my point earlier about the diesel resale values.
Go read the fine print on that "100K" tuneup, my friend (or ask a dealer's service manager). It does _N_O_T_ apply if you meet any of the heavy-duty maintenance schedule criteria, which almost every pickup owner does (heavy loads, towing, stop-and-go, extreme weather, etc.). You will discover you have to make the same 30K services that you always have made. Besides, the 100K is for spark plugs ONLY. It does not cover the distributor, the wires, or anything else.
As for the Cummins, until the 24 valve version came out this year, the engine was completely mechanical - mechanical fuel injection, mechanical valve train, etc. Tough to fail if there's no computer trying to tell it what to do. Even with the new engine, the computer is a Cummins unit; the Chrysler computer only reacts to it. The Powerstroke had one fatal flaw (in theory), and your friends' experiences bear this out: Ford put their own computer on the Navistar engine. The most common failure was electronic sensors after the injector problem you mentioned. When Nav sends that engine out to medium duty truck makers, it has a Nav computer controlling engine functions. It's almost as if Ford is embarrassed to admit they farmed out for the engine; every Dodge diesel proudly says "Cummins" on the sides.
Regarding resale, I agree, it's stupid to assume you will recover the option price. What I have found is, you maintain the *percentage* difference. For example, if the diesel truck was 10% more to buy, it's worth 10% more to trade. For me, the fuel savings will make up the rest of that difference, since I am paying less for diesel than for regular unleaded (I'm lucky there - a lot of people can't do this).
After getting out of your truck you can't take more than ten steps before looking back to make sure it's still there.
The racket it makes when it's started in the morning sounds sweeter than the opening chords of Beethoven's 9th.
You honestly think no perfume smells as good as diesel exhaust.
Your spousal unit begins to wonder why you're suddenly volunteering to run all the errands.
You record fuel consumption, mileage, oil changes, and other significant events in the life of your truck with such care and accuracy that the most picky NASA scientist would conclude you're overdoing it.
Three different neighbors have called the police after they've seen you just sitting in your truck - at 1:00 o'clock in the morning.
You're rolling out of Las Vegas headed for L.A., it's 110 degrees at 10:00 a.m. and you're pulling 11,000 lbs of trailer up the stateline grade when you see a Dodge Cummins ahead and know that life as you know it will end if you don't pass and render it a speck in your rearview mirror.
You hear the word "bible" and immediate think "owner's manual."
You find yourself looking at maps to see if there isn't some way to drive to Europe instead of flying.
Every Monday morning as you drive up the street, your neighbors are frantically running to the curb with their trash cans thinking that the garbage truck has arrived three hours early. You laugh with glee.
The kids waiting for the school bus begin to pick up their books only to find out someone put a t444e in a pickup. You grin and wave as you motor by.
You roll down the window on a cold day while driving just to hear the motor.
When driving through a tunnel or long underpass you slightly slow down just to hear the motor reverberate off the walls.
Your wife dabs diesel fuel behind her ears when she "wants your attention".
You drive around with a ton of gravel just cuz it seems right.
You can't eat and drive when you are not carrying a load.
You pull up to places that have valet parking and purposefully make sure your exhaust is placed so that you can fill the main entry with diesel fumes.
You buy a laptop computer for your fiver so you can keep in touch when you're on the road.
You set The Ford Diesel Website page on your browser as your default "home" page so ya never miss a post!
I think the reason people are a little leary of used diesels is because of what you pointed out, the high repair costs. those horror stories about fuel pumps and high $ injectors are all true, which is why if i was looking at a truck 90K miles on it, i'm not going to pay more just because its diesel, since i know that it won't be long before some of those high dollar parts start breaking. the internals of a diesel will run forever, but those vitals like fuel pumps and injectors will wear out and there is no way around it. diesels are expensive to buy and expensive to maintain, and that will never change.
I disagree with Kcram that you get the "percentage" back on diesels. It's been my experience that a diesel truck you payed $4000 more for brand new, will only bring you about $400 more than the same gas truck 4 or 5 years later. maybe its regional, i don't know. i only see a diesel viable to buy if you are pulling for most of your miles.
I'd like to address one of the "myths" rite3 pointed out. the one about shutting diesels off or leaving them running. It does not hurt a diesel to start and stop it. I can't claim expertise in the area, but i have seen damage done in big rigs (Mack trucks, Kenworths, etc) and other larger diesels because they were left to idle for long times. When you allow a diesel to idle for long periods of time, cylinder temperature drops below normal operating temp. usually diesel cylinders reach about 800-900 degrees at peak compression, which combusts the diesel. when you allow it to idle for a long time, the 160° coolant begins to catch up, and lowers the cylinder temp. the injected diesel no longer fully burns. the results are soot(partially burned hydrocarbons) and plain unburned liquid. If you let your truck idle for a long time and then take off, you might notice a little more smoke than usual, that is the soot being blown out. this soot sticks to the cylinder walls during idling and can disrupt the seating of the piston rings against the cylinders. bad news for compression and engine life. unburned fuel can wet the cylinder and seep past the rings, diluting oil in extreme cases.
that is what happens on big motors. I can't totally relate to pickup diesels, so don't quote me, but i welcome any comments if someone knows more than i. my suggestion is--if you are going to be out of your truck less than a minute, leave it running, because it takes more fuel to start the engine than it does to run it for more than one minute, plus there's no use in employing the glow plugs and started for that short of a time. but if you are going to be 5 minutes--shut her down.
So far, personal experience is bearing out the percentage value. For my truck (96 Ram 3500 Club 4x4, Cummins/automatic/SLT trim, 32K miles), the diesel is worth about $1800 more than the V8, while the V10 is only worth _$100_ more than the V8. Right in line with the initial percentage increase of the original purchase price. - courtesy of www.kbb.com
I pondered the V10/diesel (F250 Super) for some time. The $3778 price tag is hard to overcome. I finally chose the diesel because: 1. The mileage is better but as someone mentioned above it'll be 80-100,000 miles to recoup the loss. 2. I couldn't get the 3.73 limited slip rear end with the V10 (only the 4.30 is available). I currently live in Colorado and plan to move to Montana later this year and I just couldn't see ordering such a fine vehicle without a limited slip rear end and I couldn't imagine living life with a V10 gas guzzler with a 4.30 rear end. 3. The 5 year/100,000 mile diesel warranty verses the 3/36,000 V10 warranty. 4. the higher trade in value of the diesel. I believe that all of the reason above when combined justify the initial expense. Of course I reserve the right to change my opinion a 100 or so thousand miles down the road.
The V-10 does come with the 3.73 limited slip. That's what I ordered. For a couple bucks more, you can get the 4.30. I ordered the V-10, but I think your arguments for the diesel are valid. It was a matter of preference. I was willing to sacrifice the mpg, and the 410 torque was more than adequate for what I plan to tow.
jarrettw,
There are a lot of guys on this site who know a lot more than me. I'm, kind of, surprised they haven't responded yet. I'll go ahead and give you my two cents worth. This is my understanding.....
The big difference between the gas and diesel engines is the torque. The diesels have less horsepower, but significantly more torque. The torque advantage will be most noticeable when you are towing your trailer. You should be able to maintain highway cruising speeds easier and you should have better acceleration when climbing. You will notice the lower horsepower in the diesel when driving empty, primarily when pulling away from a dead stop. You're not going to blow anyone off the line, but that's not likely your intent.
If you are going to be towing alot, you will probably want the lower ratio in the 4.10+ range, depending on what brand truck you get. However, you might want to consider a taller ratio in the 3.55 to 3.73 range if most of your use is empty, with only occassional towing. The taller ratio will result in the engine having less rpms at any given speed, which will result in a little better gas mileage when not towing. You will also have more top end speed, although you should still have plenty with the lower ratio. The lower ratio will result in better performance when towing, and you should also see improved gas mileage with a load since the truck is set up to use more rpms to compensate for a load. If you notice the tow ratings for the new Ford Superduty trucks, you will notice that the rating is increased the most based on whether you choose the 3.73 vs the 4.3 for the V-10 or the 4.10 for the diesel. There is no difference in tow ratings based on duallys vs single rear wheels or 1 ton vs 3/4 ton. Those figures impact the GVWR, which will matter if you are planning to carry heavy loads in the bed.
The new V-10s are catching up. The Dodge V-10 has 450 lb-ft of torque and the Ford has 410. This is a vast improvement over the previous V-8 engines they replace, but is still significantly less torque than the 500 lb-ft the Ford Powerstroke diesel provides.
If you're going to be towing your trailer often, the most important numbers to look at are the torque and the gearing.
Someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.
6.8L V-10 options:
XD1 - Axle, 3.73 Ratio Limited Slip
XD3 - Axle, 4.30 Ratio Limited Slip
7.3L Diesel options:
XD1 - Axle, 3.73 Ratio Limited Slip
XD2 - Axle, 4.10 Ratio Limited Slip
I think some of the confusion may relate to the trucks with duallys. The wording for the XD3 option appears to say that the 4.30 is standard if you have the California emissions in combination with the V-10 and auto trans on a truck with duallys. If you're getting a truck with duallys, there may be more limitations, so you may want to look into it, but I know the 3.73 limited slip is available on the SRW models.
You might check into it if you live in CA since they mention the CA emissions, but CA is trying to get people to move to the taller ratios because of the pollution factor. I doubt they would do anything to get you into the lower 4.30 ratio.
According to the '98 & '99 Trailer and Towing Guide published by Ford, RVS 98-300, my printing is 11/97, the following is a synopsis for Super Duty models:
The emphasis placed by Ford is on the maximum Gross Combined-vehicle Weight Rating. (GCWR or GCVWR) For either gas 6.8 L V-10 or diesel the maximum GCWR is 20,000 lbs. Towing capacities are different for fifth wheel or load balancing hitch towing. The latter is 10,000 lbs. regardless of engine, transmission type, rear axle, 4 wheel or 2 wheel, chassis type or model (250/350). They're all 10,000 lbs. with one exception, the 4x4 DRW, manual transmission, crew cab 350 is specified at 9,800 lbs. With the gas engine, the F-250 reduces the GCWR to 18,000 lbs. This is with a 4.30 rear axle ratio. If the rear axle ratio is reduced to 3.73 the GCWR is also reduced to 16,500 lbs. (Manual trans) and 17,000 lbs. (automatic).
What this really means is:
How much does your truck weigh with all passengers, a full load of fuel and all your do-do? Subtract that weight from the CGWR find the maximum trailer weight that you can tow. There is one final limitation, the towed trailer may not exceed 10,000 lbs. (Except for the F-350 DRW.)
With a diesel, neither transmission nor axle ratio change the specifications of 20,000 lbs. GCWR and 10,000 towed.
There is one more important piece of trivia:
My '99 with LT-265 R75 tires, 3.73 rear axle and automatic transmission turns about 2100 RPM at about 70 MPH. With a 4.10 rear axle I'm calculating about 2310 RPM and 4.30 rear axle 2415 RPM for the same speed. The redline on a diesel starts at about 3250 to 3750 RPM. That works out to 56%, 61% and 64% of the maximum red line for each of the 3 rear axle ratios. In reality you'll probably never be able to wind the diesel up to the 3750 RPM, maybe by down shifting but by the application of power.
In a diesel, the choice of a rear axle ratio becomes much more critical in terms of road speed and engine RPM. Regardless of towing needs, my choice would have been for a 3.55 ratio, but it was not available.
So there are two ways to think of things.
First is to get the 4.10 or 4.30 and be able to tow with ease BUT have difficulty running much over 70 MPH for extended periods. Also the only options for reasonable road speed / RPM are change the rear end gears or add an auxilary over drive transmission.
Second is to get the 3.73 and tow by shifting out of over drive and in extreme cases pull the auto transmission down into second BUT have a road worthy vehicle capable of sustained travel with the spedometer on the peg. For really brute force towing, the options are change the rear end gears or add an auxilary under drive transmission.
With the first option, you're sort of stuck. There is no work around to get a roadable vehicle except install the AOD trans. (There just aren't any more gears in the transmission.) Also, mileage will suffer.
The second option is to use lower gears in the transmission when towing. If this becomes really painful, then you can install the AUD transmission.
I've seen prices quoted for the US Gear aux trans, installed, for under $3000. I'm guessing that on the new Ford transmission, the price will be similar.
If it were me, I would get the 3.73 and tow away. If towing really becomes a problem then add the AUD trans. I think that I could live a lot longer with the 3.73 and good non-towing mileage.
Rich
I have my '99 F-250 super duty with diesel, automatic transmission and a 3.73 limited slip rear end. My only choice for rear end in California was normal or positraction.
Rich
I may have something to do with the high altitude emissions requirements. All vehicles sold new in Colorado need this emissions package. The package may be the controlling factor.
Rich
Another thing that didn't make a lot of sense to me is that the charts said that the only rearend available for the SRW diesel was the 3.73. If you want to get the 4.10, you have to get a dually truck, and you might even have to get the F-350 dually. Is that true? I can't believe you can't get a SRW deisel with the 4.10. I think it might be a misprint. If it is a misprint, it brings all the other information on that site into question.
By the way, the 98/99 Ford towing figures are available on the Ford Diesel website. By the way, you were right that I did order the F-350, which explains how I got the 3.73 L/S option.
The F250 comes standard with a 5.4L engine and 3.73 regular rear end. You can upgrade to a 4.10 limited slip with the 5.4 only. You can have 3.73 with the diesel only and you can have a 4.30 limited slip with the V10 only.
The F350's are really screwed up. If you get the DRW it comes standard with the 5.4l engine and 3.73 regular rear end. You can add a 4.10 or 4.30 limited slip rear end with the diesel only. Apparently if you want a DRW with a V10 you are stuck with the 3.73 regular rear end.
The F350 SRW comes with the 5.4l engine and 3.73 regular rear end. You can opt for a 4.10 limited slip with the 5.4l engine only or you can have a 3.73 limited slip with the diesel or V10 or you can have a 4.30 limited slip with only the V10.
Apparently the rear ends are all different as the the ones for the F250's are coded XC1 etc. The ones for the F350 DRW are coded XF2 etc and the ones for the F350 SRW are coded XD1 etc.
I'm not losing any sleep over it but it would be interesting to know why Ford did what they did. Maybe they used a dart board.