Diesel vs. Gasoline

stanford

Hey, no problem. The cost had a lot to do with it. Don't forget that the gas engine is cheaper to maintain (no more 14 quart oil changes) and a lot easier to deal with than these modern diesels after the 100K mile warranty expires.

I'm also relearning the joys of being able to find a gas station whenever I need one, not coasting on diesel fumes looking for the one in a small town that has diesel.

I had my 7.3l for 5 years, so its been a bit of an adjustment. I'm certainly not regretting the decision. Next on the list is a Gale Banks Powerpack exhaust system, and probably a 6-8psi supercharger in a year or two. That should push the torque up well beyond the 500lb range and still keep the higher horsepower of the gas engine (nice for towing through E. MO for instance).

wlb

stanford: We have passed through Missouri several times in the past year; it is a roller coaster ride! Where can I find info about supercharging the V10; including cost? I cannot seem to locate cost for the Banks exhaust system, but I haven't called or e-mailed direct. Thanks again for your response. I am particularly interested in hearing from people who have previously driven diesels, but switched to gas engines (V-10s or larger V-8s). I know what you mean about searching for diesel. We get into some really out-of-the-way places (we live in NM), and I have run on fumes more than once to find the diesel. When the Cummins runs out of fuel it is a bear to get it going again. I am thinking now that we are definitely not going with another diesel even though I had no problems at all with the Cummins in the six years we drove it.

Brutus

During the first 1000 miles with my V-10 4.30 dually, I'm averaging 9.5-10mpg in Dallas stop and go commuting traffic also. I've got a 40 mile daily roundtrip. The 4.30 axle ratio makes a difference. I've heard the guys with the 3.73s are getting 2mpg more. Hopefully, someone with the V-10 3.73 combo will provide some input. I'm pretty sure that Stanford also has the 4.30.

ddorff

Quite a helpful discussion; read the whole thing, twice (skimmed the second time). We just ordered a F250 SD, CC, SB, 4x4, 3.73LS, XLT.

Our reasoning: Since we only plan on towing a small, light (<=7,000lb loaded, 5th wheel) once or twice a year for camping vacations, and round-town or occasional 900 mile round trip highway trip to the in-laws use otherwise, we don't envision putting more than 10,000 miles per year. Giving the 160,000 mile breakeven point finally calculated above, which seems to use the latest realistic numbers, that's a 16 year breakeven time frame for the PSD vs. the V10. Then there's the possibility of much more expensive repairs at about that time. The main factor, though, is that I also have to replace my car with a less used one, and the $3,800 is over half of what I'm expecting to pay for it, so the upfront savings will help out immensly right now.

I'm still second-guessing the 3.73LS, and wondering if a 4.30LS would be wiser. I'll be happy to report on some 3.73 mileages if and when it arrives, and if I've stayed with the 3.73.

I don't like the resulting crusing range though, especially when towing, but we'll have to live with it, or get an aux. tank. I also wish a 4.10LS were available for those of us for whom the choice is not clear between 3.73LS and 4.30LS.

Thanks for all the effort put into the discussion.

stanford

I really like the 4.30LS with the V10. It feels like a very natural ratio. I haven't experienced any areas in which I wished for more power yet. Unloaded, it feels just like a Taurus in fact. I get 10mpg in Dallas rush hour traffic with a heavy foot using reformulated gasoline.

f150man

I have read the posts concerning possible high maintenance costs on the PSD after warranty period expires. Does anyone know if Ford offers an extended warranty that can be purchased to act as an insurance policy against this danger??

KCRam

f150,

Both Ford and Dodge have standard warranties of 5 yrs/100K miles when you get the Navistar or Cummins, respectively. I know Chrysler's longest extended plan is 7/150, and I imagine Ford would have something similar.

It's up to you as to whether an extended warranty is a value. Some opt to put that money in a savings account, wait for something to break, and pay cash. Others like myself see extended plans as part of the cost of "doing business". Personally, I have the 7/100, just for the extra time - I figure in about 100K miles, the truck will be 6 1/2 years old, and if I still have it then, I'll be surprised. I sorta expect to replace my 96 Ram in 2001 or 2002.

bunkski

Hey all you diesel proponents. Really am enjoying reading through all your comments and perspectives. Do have a question prior taking the $30,000+ plunge into the new truck.. Do any of you own and operate your 24v or PSD's up north where it really gets cold. I've been to Minn. at 42 below with tires coming off the rims of the cars do to shrinking. How do ford and dodge prevent or compensate for the waxing of the fuel and plugging of the filter. I know about additives but my experience has been they don't work very well. All my gas engines do not have a problem in that weather. Any comments?? (moving to a warmer climate is not an option.... Thanks:))

bigfur1

Hey bunkski,
Good point i was kinda wondering that myself. I also live in MN and have an older deisel car that doesn't start under about -10. This is with all the additives.
Thanks,
Tom
P.S. what town do you live in bunski

KCRam

bunk and bigfur

Here's how Dodge does it:

The engine air passes through an electric "grid" to heat it to operating temperature. The fuel pump also has a small electric heater to warm the fuel to help dissolve any gel or wax. Dodge recommends using the engine block heater between 40 and about 0 degrees and requires it below that. If it stays below 20, I also toss in a bottle of STP Anti-Gel ($1.99 for a 12 ounce bottle that treats up to 50 gallons) for extra protection. I have never had a starting problem in winter.

markbuck

So, you are at the ski resort, hunting area,....
Your diesel has got about 100,000 miles on it.
Guess what, hard start.......
Diesel fuel combusts when the temperature of air inside the combustion chamber is above the autoignition point of diesel fuel.
If you know a little physics or engineering (Boyle's law), you will realize that high altitude, cold temperatures, low relative compression due to the fact that the pistons have shrunk away from the walls increasing clearance all lead to one problem. NO START!

Dem electric cords just don't seem to be around when you need them.

Buy a gas motor if you want max flexibility.

KCRam

markbuck,

Diesel fuel, being an oil, is also non-flammable under an ordinary match. In a pinch, you can melt it down some if you have to with an application of heat.

Gasoline, being a highly volatile liquid, will freeze solid and can only be thawed by an indirect source (a hot-water wrap, etc.).

Throwing a bottle of diesel anti-gel in the tank is no different than using a bottle of gasoline antifreeze. My Ram has fired at zero degrees without the block heater plugged in - in fact, there's no place for me to plug it in at work, so when I leave at night, I rely on the electricals to get it going. Never failed yet.

markbuck

My indirect ford diesel is quite poor at atomizing the fuel in the depth of winter. I have gone to keeping a front tank of #1 diesel and a rear tank of #2(winterized) for max flexibility. The #1 starts better and is better for quick trips around town. Once the motor is warm, #2 gives the best road power and mileage.
I've never experienced a no start due to fuel jelling, typically my no starts are due to not reaching sufficent boyle's heating in the combustion chamber even after a few minutes of cranking.
I live at 7000' elevation in Arizona, 20% less air to compress at this altitude, and overnight temperature drops of typically 30 to 40 degrees. It was right around 0 two nights ago (mid-November). Even my buddy's Powerstroke gets finicky in the winter. The cummins' do the best, but only as compared to other diesels.......

I'm at 170,000 on my ten year old ford diesel crew cab (oil changed by me every 2500 miles). Drove to Florida last month, averaged 70 to 80 mph, used 1/2 qt of oil on the way there (2500 miles) and got 16.95mpg. Glow plugs are fairly new, everything else ok. Engine always started in FL without any preheat cycle just like a gas motor. Got back to AZ and had a no start last week when it was cold... Moral of story, old, cold, diesels don't start so good at high altitude.

KCRam

ooo yikes - indirect and glow plugs - shades of the Oldsmobile conversions... I agree, cold, thin, altitude air will ruin your day. It's interesting - the owner's manual actually says to fire the grid twice if you left it out unplugged (turn key to on - watch "Wait" light - when it goes off, turn key off and repeat, then fire it). Give that a shot and see if it helps - maybe double-time on the glow plugs might get you cranked.

cdean

you've just got an old motor showing its age, markbuck. i don't know if double time on the glow plugs will make up for lost compression, but its about your only other option.

dennis4

When have you ever seen gas freeze solid?

KCRam

I haven't personally experienced it in a vehicle, but it can be done. Folks in Canada and Alaska know this phenomenon very well.

bunkski

Hey guys

I sure do appreciate the feedback. However, I guess I expected a diesel to start with the fuel that may already exist in the cylinders or in the fuel line past the filter. Heck, compressing it at what 20-1 can get it up to the needed temp real quick. Markbuck, good point on the piston shrinkage and loss in compression... hadn't thought of that. But My question was the plugging of the fuel filter with the engine running as you are cruising down the highway in negative 25 degrees of good old northern Illinois (for you bigfur... only said I visited Minn. Did not say I lived there. Could never get used to the purple gang.) Kcram, sounds like you have the answer as far as Dodge goes. I am surprised that none of the dealers down here know of the heater in the fuel pump. Also where do you operate your diesel? 0 to 20 is pretty typical for northern Ill where I'll be driving. Markbuck may be right. It looks like a V10 (with the lousy milage) may be the better option.

KCRam

I'm in NJ, so we see our share of winter blasts in January and February. If you do decide diesel, and I'm not saying markbuck is wrong at all, just remember to keep everything related to starting in well-maintained order. This would be your battery, alternator, fan belt, coolant supply, fuel quality, fuel and air filters, and engine oil. Also avoid overcranking the starter when it's warm out, so that it's in good shape when it's cold outside. Keep them all fresh and clean as often as possible, and the diesel will have no problems.

stanford

Everything you mentioned, "battery,alternator, fan belt, coolant supply, fuel
quality, fuel and air filters, and engine oil", also applies to gas engines. Take care of your ride, and it will take care of you.

KCRam

Well said, stanford...

Diesels are a little more sensitive with some of that, though. We don't have dual batteries for nothing - though we don't have spark wires to go bad

Just got my Ram back from the dealer a few minutes ago. All 4 filters swapped (fuel, air, oil, auto trans), fresh oil, trans fluid, t-case fluid, and diff fluid, new fan belt (I'm at 40K miles - I don't wait for it - ever), and an idle adjustment. It was down about 100-150 rpm - on a low rpm diesel, that's a lot. It was even affecting other components because they weren't getting either fan belt speed or vacuum. Cranked the Cummins, shifted into D, and got nothing but "smoooooth".

cdean

bunski

diesel in the cylinder or in the lines won't start it. that 18:1 compression does get hot, but all your cylinder walls, piston, coolant, oil----if all this is at 0° F when you crank it, than all the heat produced from compression goes straight into all the metal and fluid around the cylinder, and the cylinder doesn't change much in temp at all. only with glow plugs and block heating does the cylinder get hot enough to start without overcranking in those kinds of temps.

markbuck

Cdean, kcram, and stanford
You all are absolutely correct on routine maintenance. I typically follow the severe maintenance schedule for any vehicle I own. My main point is that I believe that if you use a diesel for mostly around town, everyday use, you probably will only get 150 to 200k before you have to do major engine work. This about the same as a gas motor. It seems that alot of potential/new diesel owners are expecting to go 500k miles on their diesel motor. While this is possible when using the truck on over the road type trips, I don't think a diesel motor will last much longer in everyday driving than a gas motor.
The great thing about owning a diesel is better fuel economy, the ability to run WFO for extended periods of time without worrying about melt down, and the lack of computerizaton (at least on my old 7.3) which can cause gremlins.
The down side is slower warm up (due to diesel's greater part throttle efficiency), big nasty oil changes every 2.5 to 3k miles, two batteries to replace about every 50,000 miles, and of course hard starting when cold. I'm on my 23rd glow plug, 2nd glow plug controller, and you know; glow plugs cost more and are tougher to replace than spark plugs. I'm gonna buy a new truck in the next several months and it's gonna run on gasoline.
Last point, I bet there will be a ton of powerstrokes for sale at about a 100k miles that have been run on SI type oil changed every 7,000 miles. I won't be buying one of those used diesels......

cdean

my dad went through the same glow plug headaches on his 7.3 ford. He went through 3 controllers that cost well over $100 each. If one glow plug would burn out, sometimes it would fry the controller. wasn't a very good system, and ran the cost up quickly. that was on a '88, back when diesels were cheap motors...

markbuck

cdean
How does one know that the new powerstrokes or 24V cummins are "good" motors? Do we have to wait till they reach 150 to 250k miles of around town driving? Is it 'cuz you spend $4000 to $5000 extra?
I think I spent an extra $3K back then (1989) for my diesel but I rationalized that the extra money would pay back since I could go "500,000 miles on the diesel"? Well, now I selling before 200K miles cuz a well rebuilt diesel is about $5000, which is more than my truck is worth. Plus I want a 4wd )......

cdean

Tell me a little more about what your asking, Markbuck. i guess it depends on what you mean by "good" motor. Will it perform? sure, we have reports. Will it last? probably, but hard to say. people who bought powerstrokes in '94 and '95 thought they were awesome engines, but didn't know about the injector problems and the cavitation problems that wouldn't crop up for another couple of years.

kind of like the engineer that builds a bridge that falls down in 10 yrs. it was pretty damn good bridge.... that first 10 years.

KCRam

I would never expect my Cummins diesel to meet that "average" overhaul mileage of 300K miles, simply because I don't believe the rest of the truck wil make it that far. If I get to the next Ram redesign (currently scheduled as a MY2003), I will be satisfied with my 96. By then, I will have put about 125K on it, and provided it's in good shape, should give me a few extra $$ at trade.

Ran wholesale prices on Edmuinds and Kelley for my truck, and came up almost even. Edmunds said $21,185, Kelley said $22-even. This is after 30 months from a sticker price of $34K, or about 65%. I figure in 5 more years, I should be able to get $14-$15K for it in trade.

stanford

The only thing to watch out for is the drop in value as the new body styles come out. I know my '93 F350 dropped significantly when that happened.

KCRam

true, stanford, but I have a slight trump card - the easily-modifiable 12v Cummins with absolutely no computer controls. If I want another 25hp, for example, I can just wander down to the Cummins factory shop and have them "adjust" the boost pressure slightly. The computer on the 24v Cummins will not make that kind of easy adjustment.

stanford

Agreed -- that doesn't mean that people purchasing the truck used in a few years won't insist on (and pay a premium for) the 24V. My 7.3 was pre-powerstroke (ie: manual) and it certainly didn't help my resale value much, even though it was in great condition w/ only 100K miles.

Then again, you still can't beat the feel of a diesel.

iluvspots

We have a 98 Chevy 3500 crew cab 6.5L diesel that
had a burnt piston replaced at 9000 miles and has
been burning/using oil (in my opinion) ever since. I know that it is leaking because my solid white cat now has black spots! It is also smoking a lot more than it (or the others) did in the past and the clicking/chattering that indicated the piston problem in the first place is starting up again.

I have had 2 others ('93 & '97) that did not do
what this one is doing now. But, Chevrolet tells
me (because my dealer told them) that this is
"normal". I'm intentionally not putting how much
it is using until I hear what everyone else has experienced.

What is an acceptable level of oil consumption for this size truck/engine?

Please respond soon as I am considering going the lemon law process with this truck because of this and another problem it has been displaying since purchase.

KCRam

spots,

Sorry to possibly ruin your day, but the only time my Cummins has been below "full" is when some debris jumped up and punched a hole in my oil filter. Otherwise, in 40K miles, however much has gone in, has come back out at the change. You should not accept ANY oil consumption in a diesel for the simple fact that the fuel itself is also an oil, and actually helps lube the upper cylinder when the engine is at operating temperature.

Get an oil analysis at your next change - depending on what could be in your oil, you may have a claim of a bad engine.

iluvspots

kcram,

Thanks for the reply. I also didn't think it should be using ANY oil! I also didn't think it should have a burnt piston at 9000 miles either. But it did and now I am beginning to believe that it has a scarred cylinder wall, too. Why else would it be leaking, burning, and chattering more than what I consider normal? It is using 1 1/2 to 2 quarts of oil every 1000 to 1200 miles. At first the service manager tried to tell us that it would use 1/2 to 1 quart every 500 miles when pulling a load. When we told him we haven't pulled anything in 5 months (~8000 miles) he changed to "it will use a little over a quart in 1000 miles."

I guess I should have learned my lesson with the '97 Chevy and bought something else. Chevrolet repurchased it because of a chassis problem and a rear end problem, not because of the engine, though. What really irritates me with them is that even though this is the third of these engines I've had, they are trying to tell me that this is "normal".

cdean

they're pulling your chain. those are some serious problems. granted you've got a 100,000 mile warranty, i'd still try to get out of that truck. I'd start some legal recourse, and make chevrolet buy it back.

mikeo3

SHORT TRIPS - new question for you all - I often only drive to and from work (3 miles each way)in a day...boring life! Was told by some that this would destroy a diesel - no time to warm up. Others said newer diesels would do fine. Live in Texas, rarely freezes here. What do you think? Thanks in advance.

rodeoroofer

I am getting ready to order a '99 Dodge 2500 LB/QC with the Cummins to tow a 31' 5th wheel trailer. We plan on using the rig winter and summer, almost exclusively in the northern tier states, Canada and Alaska. I am considering adding an exhaust brake, but I'm concerned how it will affect the handling characteristics on icy road surfaces.

If anyone has experience in this regard, I would greatly appreciate the input. If this topic has been previously discussed, please let me know which discussion group to check.

Being new to this, I'm not sure if this is the correct discussion group to ask this question. If not, I'll gladly go to the appropriate one.

Thank you.

cdean

Mike
IMO, i don't think you will destroy your diesel, you just won't get as good mileage. but you're not burning much fuel anyway.

as far as warming up, i would let the truck idle a minute or 2 in the morning to get the oil flowing good, no matter how far you had to drive.

mroffshore

cdean,

I had asked a similar question on the SD site 2-3 weeks ago. No one responded and I am very concerned about proper handling/warm up in the cool and cold mornings. The engine does sound better, atleast it seems that way, after the engine pushes up the temp gauge. I really do not like jumping in the truck and drive it away after only 30-60 sec of idle time even if I baby the speed down the road for a mile or so. What do you or anyone else think?

Mroffshore

fredwood

mikeo3,
I KNOW this will hurt your engine (diesel or gasoline), IF it does not reach operating temperature. My wife's mazda 626 got driven a total of 1.2 miles per day, 6 tenths of a mile to work and 6 tenths home. The problem is the engine never heats up evenly and then is allowed to cool. Therefore causing some of the bolts to the head to expand and contact properly, whereas some did not. Needless to say, the head gasket had to be replaced every ten thousand miles. My wife would never warm it up before driving it, "I was late for work" or "I just wanted to get home".

KCRam

mikeo3

In Texas summer heat, you won't have any problems getting the engine up to snuff. On the occasional cool days in the winter, you can use thge engine block heater below +40 degrees, or you can idle for approximately 60 seconds at 1000 rpm before driving off.

cdean

I usually wait a couple minutes on a warm morning. the new engines today are built with close tolerances. if the oil is not at operating temp, it will not flow as intended, and you will not be fully protected. If it's warm outside, one or two minutes gets my 350 oil well over 120° (hot to touch filter).

the coldest it ever gets around here is the high 20's, low 30's. on those mornings, i'll let the truck idle for at least 10 minutes. the engine will never come up to operating temp idling, but it will get the oil flowing good before you actually start driving and stressing the engine. for 30 and below, it takes a long time for an 5 quarts of oil and 2 1/2 gallons of water at 30° to warm up to even 100 or above. then it still needs to get to about 200. for my truck (on a cold morning), i'll let it idle for 5 to 10 minutes. then, when i actually start driving, and i know my engine is warmed up, because it only takes another minute or 2 of driving for the water temp to come up to normal.

I'm pretty conservative, and maybe i baby the engine too much, but if I were ya'll, I would let the truck idle a little longer in the morning, and baby it for the first mile or so, see how long it takes to get up to operating temp when you drive. once your water temp gets there, your oil temp shouldn't be too far behind.

for your diesel, i would give several minutes in very cold weather, no matter how far you had to go. as far as the head problems mentioned, i've never heard of that, but letting your engine get warm enough so that the thermostats open at some point on the commute should alleviate that problem from ever happening.

If you are worried about the combustion of your diesel in colder weather, or damage to the upper engine, there really is no danger. once a cold engine is running smoothly, the only worry is getting the proper lubrication. the only thing bad about driving a cold engine, from a fuel standpoint, is that engines get lower efficiencies when they are not at operating temps, (also some losse due to cold oil in the tranny and rear axle). if you hopped you your truck and drove one mile every day without letting it warm up, you would probably get 3 or 4 mpg worse than if you let it get up to full operating temp and drive it.

if i missed any thing, let me know. hope i helped.

cdean

just reread my post. sorry about all the grammar problems. been a long day!

mikeo3

Thanks to all for your quick responses - all things considered I'm probably better off with gas engine .... but there is something likeable about that diesel rig - and I know ya'll know what I mean. I continue to monitor this board for any new info ... thanks again.

mroffshore

cdean,

Thanks for the info! I just do not know enough about diesel engines and I certainly do not want to mess it up mechanically. I also heard that you really can't warm a diesel up fully by just idling. But a short idle as you mentioned will get the lubrication going.

Mroffshore

markbuck

Agree on the diesel warm up. The diesel has no intake butterflys, therefore it takes very little energy (heat) to idle a diesel, this is a large part of diesel's great fuel economy. A diesel motor idling at 80 or 100:1 fuel air ratio simply doen't heat up very fast or all the way. Plus the diesel typically has lots more mass in metal, coolant and oil.... Longer warm up times.
All motors should be routinely driven until their oil temp is higher than the boiling point of water to drive off the water formed during combustion. If not, you get acids and corrosion in the motor. Bad for long life

rexallen

Airwolf, Brutus or Sanford,
A friend of mine has a '93 Ford F-350 with a 7.3 non turbo diesel. If the vehicle sets for a week or so without any use, he finds it won't start unless he uses starter fluid to get it going. He has installed a new fuel pump but this has not resolved the problem. Someone suggested installing an electric fuel pump. Could one of you enlighten me on what the best approach would be to solve this problem. You guys seem to be up to date on most problems and sure would appreciate your input.
Thanks
Rexallen

markbuck

Starting fluid (ether)- bad. Never use it. Ford specifically warns against it.

Check glow plugs for continuity - easy test with battery powered probe light or ohmmeter.

How many miles? Injection pump ok? ....

Pull the fuel filter sometime after a week. If it is full of fuel you don't have a problem with the fuel pump.

Why not take it to a real diesel mechanic?

rexallen

He took it to a so called diesel mechanic who replaced the fuel pump and it do anything. This guy was recommended as one of the best.
Greg

stanford

Not sure myself. My '93 sat for 1 week periods fairly often at the airport, and at least one 1 month stay. I never had a single starting problem, and never used any ether, et cetera. Does this problem happen in summer, winter, or both?

cdean

if it can sit for less than a week and start fine, there is no mechanical problem. a mechanical problem would make it hard to start EVERY time, (cold).

best guess from info given is that fuel is bleeding off somewhere. the fuel pump is getting air in it. diesel fuel pumps don't like air. it brings them to their knees. either somewhere between the fuel tank and the fuel pump, fuel is bleeding off and air is getting in the line and into the pump, air locking the entire system.