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Diesel vs. Gasoline
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Comments
On the other hand, would it be a good first choice to take it to a Cummins Factory Shop to see what they think? Maybe the thing is off a bit in the tuning department, but it runs beautifully.
Seeing as how we bought the 3500/QC/Cummins for traveling, not towing, would it do the auto trans any harm if I could get a Cummins Shop to boost the output a little, say 25 - 30 hp? I'm just trying to think of some options...
Any opinions?
rk
Note that the TST transmission kit WILL void the warranty. You can click here for their website.
Also, something seems a little odd to me on this subject. Cummins detunes the Cummins to 215hp /420 lbs.ft. when you spec the AutoTrans, but if you order the V10, which has more torque and hp than either Cummins version, they still couple it to the 47RE trans. If they were so worried about trans failure, it seems logical that the V10 would be far more prone to causing damage than the lesser powered Cummins, even in its higher output version.
Do you know anyone who has installed the TST conversion and what kind of problems, if any, the owners are having with this?
thanks,
rk.
Here's a couple of reasons why my wife and I selected the Dodge.
> The Dodge has complete bumper to bumper Galvinizing of it's body. The 99 SD's are only primed and painted, so rustproffing of some sort will be required if you get into snow in your area. I just got rid of a '94 for a new 99 3500, and it didn't have a speck of rust anywhere, and I live in the NorthEast.
> The Ford diesel is extremely noisy inside the cab, when compared to the Dodge Cummins. I drove a lot of each before deciding. With the windows rolled up, my wife and I could not carry a normal converstaion when accelerating to 60 mph.
A large Ford dealership told me that the reason for this is primarily due to the insulation package that comes withg the Cummins, and not with the Ford Diesel package. The other reason is that the Ford is noisier to begin with, it has about 40% more moving parts to it's diesel than does the Cummins.
> Creature conforts...Drive a Ford SD and note the feel of the seats, layout of the interior, anotherwords, the ergonomics of the space you are likely to occupy for long periods of time. Then get in a Dodge SLT (XT for the Ford), and see what you think. It was night and day, in our opinion.
> The size of the rear seating area in the Quad-Cabs. The Ford has a rear seat that will hold a dog, (a small dog) and it has very little padding. The Dodge can seat adults comfortably provided the front seat people don't push their seats all the way back. See for yourself.
> There is no doubt the Navistar is a more powerful engine than the Dodge Cummins, but that is soon to change for the 2000 Model Year. The Cummins folks are getting quite a bit better gas mileage than the PS people.
> In our research of Ford / Dodge 3500 class, there is a substantial amount of complaints on a variety of issues for the new SD's, for the Dodge, their was only one. The 47RE automatic transmission has some inherent weak points when coupled to a powerful engine and used for hauling, but Dodge has changed this for 2000, and is switching to the Allison unit which will fix it's only weak point.
> In fairness to the Ford's, the 99 was a first model year for a major design change, and as is always the case, what looks good on the drawing board doesn't always work so well in the field.
There will be some changes in the Ford SD's for 2000, I am sure. The Dodge went through these design pains in 94, so they have had quite a while to get it right, which I think they have done.
But drive them both under the same conditions, at the same time of day, and see what you like. If the doors are a must-have, then the Dodge can't help, case closed.
You're correct that the trans is the same model, but there are two specific adjustments made:
1) In the V10 version of the 47RE, the shift-point programming is different, allowing the powertrain to use the wider powerband.
2) Even though the V10 has 450 lb-ft (the 47RE's official limit), it's not a steady onslaught of torque like the Cummins. In other words, the 47RE can handle 450 lb-ft for short periods of time, but would explode if it had to handle it all day long.
As for the TST kit, I know a few folks who do have it in their Cummins Rams, and they have reported no problems - keep it maintained by the book (fluid, filter, band adjustment), and the truck generally doesn't know the difference.
KCram's correct. the V10 peaks 450 ftlbs of torque at very high rpms. It very rarely actually hits that torque, only under heavy acceleration, and usually the truck RPM will run out of that range quickly.
the Cummins, on the other hand, delivers that huge amount of torque at a low cruising RPM. this means you could be pulling a heavy trailer down the highway delivering full 450 ftlbs at a low speed for long periods of time. that tranny was probably only designed to withstand about half of that torque continously. Plus, at the low RPM that the Cummins achieves that torque, there is not nearly as much lubrication and oil pressure (in the tranny) as the v10 would achieve at its higher RPM peak.
rk
Look for a release in about 30-45 days.
Eric
As far as TST, Mark has prototype boxes for the 24v now. He is only weeks away from making them available. I am hearing $599.00 for the box that you can turn on/off and will deliver 275/660. I like TST's approach to power increases as they change boost, fuel rate, etc and maintain safe EGT's. Some of the other 24v uprate kits are just adding fuel, smoke, and EGT's are going through the ceiling.
David
I got that info from several sources, and pieced together the most obvious scenarios.
I recently aquired a 5th. wheel camper weighing in at 8500lbs. and mad a short pull of about an hour here in Connecticut. Yes we have hills and some will put any truck to the test. I was slightly surprised at the load it placed on the truck but I didn't experience any serious problems. When I ordered the truck I took alot of time researching what I would need to tow the camper unit. I did one thing unusual though that many people were not aware of. There is an axcel ratio of 3.73 available. The standard 4.10 is what I had in my 94 Dodge Ram and I knew I didn't want that again. The 3.54 just dosen't have it when pulling a full load. Right now at about 60 mph I turning 2750 rpm which is pretty smooth. The ownly thing I noticed was an unusal sound from the motor just after I've pulled a fair size hill. When the lugging drops off the trany upshifts and it sounds like the engine is turning higher rpm's than are indicated.
Haven't figured it out yet, any answers?
All in all though I love the truck and it does its job well.
Muzzy
Been along hot summer. Wanted you guys to know my buddies Ford diesel problem was a bad fuel pump. He installed a electric pump and has had no more problems. I took a trip to Steamboat Springs CO last winter and it ran great, with know start up problems. Now he can throw away the ether can that he should never had bought in the first place. I bounce around TOWN HALL quite often and enjoy your input. I am not to mechanically inclined and do "MUCH" appreciate your knowledge in the auto world. Keep up the GOOD postings and remember I'm reading, but not responding because of my lack of auto knowledge. THANKS AGAIN
The 2750 RPM figure seems high for 60 MPH. My Fords with 3.73 gears were a lot closer to 1750 at 60 MPH. (Usually I'm hitting about 2050 at 70 MPH.)
Rich
I live in Columbus, OH and about 70% of my driving will be city driving. During the summer months I tow my boat (7000# fully loaded) to surrounding lakes. Most of these lakes are located in mountainous regions (KY, WV, TN) and can take me 4 to 8+ hours of drive time to get there. We do A LOT of boating during the summer (almost every weekend). But this is only from June through September.
This will be my only vehicle, so during the winter I won't be towing anything. Last year I drove a total of 18K miles. I am currently using a ford bronco which is about to take a dive from all the mountain towing. Plus, I'm tired of sweating my a__ off because I avoid running the a/c to save every 'pony' I can.
I am looking at either the Ram 2500 or the F-250 SD with the extended cab and short bed. At first I was leaning towards the diesel, but now I'm swaying back to the V10. I figured I would just 'spread' the diesel's 4K cost over the 4 years I plan to keep it by paying for the crappy gas milleage. Plus, I do all my own repairs / maintenance (if I can), but I've never worked on a diesel. Whichever truck I plan to buy, I will probably go with the higher rear end gearing with limited slip (wet boat ramps).
Also would appreciate any comments on roominess /comfort in the Ram QuadCab compared to the F-250 ClubCab
---and---
2wd compared to 4wd (I only put my bronco in 4wd four times last year during the winter!)
Thanks in advance...
If you go with the Ford, you might as well wait for the 2000 model. Rumor has it that the V-10 will get 25 more horses and 20 more ft-lbs of torque.
cdean
I'm kinda leaning towards the Dodge over the Ford because of the cab roominess. Any comments on the Dodge V10 (or Diesel) for my situation (see posting #386)?
I know this is off the topic of these postings, so please excuse me for this. I've read in a few of these listings that there are some people having problems with the Dodge auto tranny. The manual tranny is definitely NOT an option for me, so this is a big concern of mine. Any comments?
Thank again in advance...
Best of Luck
If the Dodge extended warranty is anything like the ones offered by Ford, go with the Chrysler official version. Even if it's two grand you're better off! I had a third party extended warranty and they were telling the dealer to use parts from the junk yard. With the Ford ESP it was no questions asked. Everything fixed w/o a problem. If a rebuilt part was used, I was informed that it was rebuilt.
As for mileage with my '99 PSD. It has been running high 15s to high 18s. Most usually it is in the 17s. (LA Traffic) The best was a sane run to Las Vegas generally at 75-78 MPH. Truthfully, I'm disappointed in the '99 PSD mileage. My '92 7.3L averaged over 17.5 MPG for 130K miles.
Rich
skipper
Apparently a bug with some pistons in the 5.4 and 6.8 in 1999. Only in certain motors, ford is gonna do some motor rebuilds. A 2000 model will likely not have the piston slap problem as ford has changed pistons.
I agree with markbuck. Even though I'm a happy diesel owner, for the driving you do, the V10 will be plenty of engine.
I do hope your bride is either tall, athletic, and/or you're getting running boards. Even the 2wd F250 is a hike upwards for most women.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
After reading all 395 comments in here I'm not sure if the diesel makes sense since my commute is less than 15 miles each way. The weight of the trailer is more of a concern for me than the commute mile.
Does anyone commute with a V10? if so, what kind of city commute miles are you getting and how does that vary when you hook up your trailer?
I guess I have the same questions for a diesel owner?
I'm looking to make a purchase around January..any input would be helpful.
thanks.
Good luck.
How many miles are you putting on the diesel in a year? I don't do a lot of stops and starts of the engine, but I don't drive it over 20 min in any one strech.
Does anyone have stats on the mileage per gallon of the V10?
Diesels have more engine mass to heat up and are far more efficient at idle or small throttle openings(100:1 air/fuel ratio at idle). Result is very slow engine heat up.
I don't think that I was lucky but rather maintenance was the reason. The trick is lubrication! (Engine, injectors, bearings and rear end)
Rich
We traded our 95 gas 360 in on the diesel, mainly because of the mileage towing and big hills and steep passes really taxed it. We started looking the V-10s, but didn't take long to realize, the mileage empty was going to eat us up. I have a friend a work with a new V-10, and gets 10-11 towing. We get 14 towing a bigger trailer. We both have trip computers, so mileage is a snap to figure (push button stupid).
Is this truck goes as the 95, we will average about 18,000 miles in a year. The 95 did everything we asked of it, but sometimes it worked real hard, but never overheated. Not hint of a trans problem either. Have seen alot about Dodge brake problems, do you know these are Delco brakes? Surprise, Huh.
Keep on towing
Looks like the turbodiesel is the way to go. The V10 will suck the gas on the non-tow miles. I plan on going out at least twice a month with the Terry. The wife is already talking about upgrading to a bigger/newer trailer. I think I'll wait for the 2000 TD and look at the tranny and brakes at that time.
I checked the map last night and with the exception of going straight south, I hit significant hills in the first 50 miles when I leave town. The 1500 Sport SB is going to work hard through the end of this year.
Thanks for the info.
I'm new here, and would like some advice from those "in-the-know". I'm looking for an extended cab pick up, for everyday use, as well as doing some light-duty towing, off-roading about 3 times a year and plowing my 300 ft. drive in the winter. I've found a '95 K2500 Chevy with the 6.5L Diesel (not turbo), and 173000km (107000mi). The asking price is $18,900 CDN (approx $12,285 US). I wasn't looking for a 2500 because of the fuel economy penalty, but if the diesel can get me respectable mileage, I might be interested. As well, is a diesel going to be better for maintenance and longevity? I plan to have the truck for 5 years at least and would be putting about 30000km / year (19000mi) and want to be sure I can expect a reliable vehicle in that time.
Is this a good deal, or am I better to wait for a K1500 or F150 with a gas engine? Any opinions are welcome.
Does the common rail technology mean a supply of diesel fuel under constant high pressure and new style injectors? Where the injectors are better timed and controlled to produce more complete and consistent fuel burn?
Rich
If I were retired and pulling all the time I'd opt for the 2500 2wd diesel.
tfcav
Good luck
wildman
The only maintenance that I have performed is change oil and filter at 2500 mile intervals(have since gone to every 5000 miles since changing to Amsoil 15w-40 semi-synthetic) and grease all steering and suspension fitting at the same time as changing oil, which is something you should do with any work truck. Also, replace trans(with filter),xfer case,front and read diff fluid once a year,again all Amsoil products, usually in the fall. Replace fuel filter and clean(Amsoil) air filter every 15000 miles. Lubricate linkages etc.. as needed.
The engine has original injector pump, injectors, glow plugs. This year 6.5 has mechanical injector pump and is very reliable. I did replace the lift pump at 90,000 due to corrosion(beach driving) which most people do not do.
This, to me, does not sound like alot more maintenance than would be performed on a truck with a gas engine. The use of Amsoil products is more expensive, but that is a personal choice. The GM diesel is very user friendly for preventive maintenance and many mods can be performed to make it run stronger. I would recommend the 6.5 to anyone.
PS I also use a fuel additive made by Stanadyne(injector pump manufacturer) to help lubricate pump since EPA has lowered sulfur content in #2 diesel. Price is offset by lower fuel cost, at the pump and in MPG.
I don't think most people would anticipate having any significant unscheduled maintenance problems at 105,000 miles. Diesel engines are usually under warranty for 100,000 miles. It's the potential cost of big ticket items after the warranty expires that may scare some people away.
The knock against Chevy diesels has been their lack of torque and hp compared to the Dodge and Ford diesel. Chevy appears to be addressing that issue with the new line of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks they are getting ready to release. They will introduce a new diesel made by Isuzu. I haven't heard what the hp and torque will be, but I'm guessing it will be in the same ballpark as the Dodge Cummins and Ford PSD.
I am lucky that I don't have to worry about purchase price, MPG, resale, or maintence. What I want input on is comfort while driving and ease in towing. I am new to the pick-up/RV world. I inherited a 97 Chev 2500 with a 350 engin, plus a fifth wheel at 8500 lbs. I tow in the west and am always going either up or down, that plus horrible headwinds. Out of 25000 miles a year driving 4000 will be with the RV and the rest around town, (non business)The Chev won't cut it, so I am in touch with the Ford folks. Right now the plan is to buy a 2000 F 250 supercab superduty 141" wheel base. I am going to get all the goodies with the only 2 decisions left- get the V-10 or the diesel and get a 4x4 or a 4x2. I really would rather have gas, so the questions are;
V-10 or diesel. Any of you been able to compare the two engins pulling the load I describe above. How much more superior is the diesel. I know diesel is more torque at lower rpm, but will I really miss it using the V-10. Any one have any experance with the two especially in high winds. (Last time I noticed high winds and travel was when I was flying a ragwing Aronca in a head wind and the rigs on the freeway below were passing me. But that is another story)
4x4 v 4x2. I am a basic desert rat, (Arizona) But I drive Colo and Ut a couple of times a yr to ski. I like having a 4x4 but when I test drove the F250 diesel 4x4 it sure rode hard. Any of you been able to compare the Ford V10 4x4 and the diesel 4x4 for comfort, or are all 4x4s going to give that hard ride?
any other comments would be welcome. The Ford guy calls me at least once a day so I need to fish or cut bait.
Thanks
Philmaar
- what took them so long to jump into the pool?
- will the Duramax even make a dent because so many people have already sided with either the Cummins or Powerstoke?
- will the new HD (2500/3500) Silverado/Sierra be up to the engine?
- will GM offer a high-torque 6-speed stick like Dodge and Ford? Obviously with GM half-owning New Venture, they'd look for the NVG5600, but Dodge can't even fill orders for that (again) because of demand.
I certainly wish GM luck - more choice only makes all three trucks better.
kcram
Community Leader/Smart Shopper Conference
I was always a Chevy man. Then came Roger Smith. (For another forum.) Now I'm delighted with my third Ford!
You're right about the mystique of the Navastar and Cummins. Just the thought of GM and diesel send a lot of people running even though I'm sure that the new combination will be fantastic. Also GM has lost considerable image because they have tended to stonewall rather than resolve. I think that GM has a really rough road in front of them for any diesel vehicle, especially something "New". It may take as long as 5 years of superb performance and after the sale support before GM will sell 40%-50% diesel.
The way I see it is when somebody has a failure in their diesel motor at 150-200K and the dealer repairs or replaces at no charge with the attitude; "There's no such thing as a broken diesel in a GM truck." When GM gets to that point, there's a h*** of a lot of us that may come back.
Rich
Rich
My isuzu diesel trooper broke the crank at 40,000 and Isuzu wouldn't completely warrant it (I paid the labor)
You do the math......