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My name is Beth and I'm trying to decide between the RSX and the c230. I actually like the c230 better (imagine that!), but my concern is how this car operates in the snow given that it's rear wheel drive. Any body have any experience on this matter?
Also, I'm sure this has been talked about before, but how much can I reasonably expect to by over MSRP. I've never paid over 2%, but that does not seem to like with this car. Any guidance would be great.
Cheers,
Beth
Car & Driver did a test awhile back and showed that snow tires are roughly equivalent to having 4 wheel drive with all-season tires. When I say "roughly equivalent", snows were better in some tests and AWD was better in others. Overall, it depends on how you weight the tests as to which is "best" (other than the obvious, namely having both).
Thus said, are you driving with snows now on your VW Cabrio? If not, then I think its pretty clear that a C230 with snows will be equal to at least that... possibly a bit better.
Also, I'm sure this has been talked about before, but how much can I reasonably expect to by over MSRP.
Percentage over MSRP or percentage over Invoice?
Personally, I simply won't buy a car that's priced over MSRP. For the C230 I have on order, I'm paying 3.5% under MSRP. The MSRP is Invoice+7%, plus there's another 3% hidden in the hold back.
Given that there are buyers willing to pay above MSRP in California, a discount of somewhere up to $1000 seems like one of the better deals out there.
BTW, just be careful in some of the accessories: as priced, the CD player and Cell phone are nothing less than rip-offs.
-hh
Also, have you had a chance to check out Edmunds' New Vehicle Pricing calculator? This will give you an idea of what other people are paying in your area. Good luck with your decision. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Re: The discount. As noted above, it depends on location, but the range of invoice +3% is doable. Also, build to order can take up to 12 weeks. We bought thru a high volume dealer, and they were able to customize a build slot that was still in a status where they could specify options, so our delivery time was about 7 weeks.
We love the car! Great to drive, good looks, Mercedes feel throughout! Our college son came home to pick up the Camry to take back to college, and he was uncharacteristically enthusiastic about the coupe. He isn't about saying those things to impress parents, but he was very impressed with the car. JUst an interesting aspect of this car, that it can have entusiastic reception from demographic groups ranging from college students to their parents.
I can see some sibling rivalry about who gets this hand me down!
Goto http://photos.yahoo.com/jay07_1996
/My Photo.../kompressor
Enjoy!
Comparing to Subaru WRX charges over $3000 for upgrading to 17" wheels, or most others charge around $1000 for 17" wheels.
I have good experience with the C230 and my last car with shopping through internet. I still need to negotiate a little bit with the fleet/internet manager but considerably less hassle than dealing with a salesperson.
I got mine at 3.5% over invoice.
jjpeter - do the mudflaps come down much? I couldn't see them on your pics. That's an accessory that I'm very much interested in, but don't want them to be too long, as I may drop the car eventually. Thanks!
Oh, to whomever asked before, I got Continental Contisports with my C7 package. I think there's another brand that it's possible to get with the package, but the name escapes me.
GG - my car has been fine in the snow so far. The only real problem is getting off the line if you're on ice. The esp kicks in, and you're left sitting there like an idiot. I'm sure that overall it'll be at least as good as the rsx in the snow, and will be much better if you happen to run into or be run into by another car. You have the same decision that I had. My mind was set the first time that I tried to sit in the rear seat of the rsx. Good luck with the decision, and take as many test drives as possible with both cars until you decide.
I think it would be a great idea so Mercedes can have a V6 Coupe to fill the slot between the C230 Kompressor and CLK 320. They could price the car starting in the Mid $30K range and have a fully loaded one top out in the Low $40Ks.
If the current C230 Kompressor sells well (From MBUSA's perspective), then I'm sure MB would like to have a C320 Coupe so the C coupe Line could Compete against the 3 series coupes.
I've been very impressed with the C230 Kompressor as most of the cars on the dealer lots have MSRPs of the $28-$31K (I've actually seen one on a lot in Maryland that stickered for $36K+, but it was pretty much loaded).
I love Mercedes styling and have been a big fan of theirs for years. The C230 Kompressor Sports Coupe is the only Mercedes im my mind that is competitive pricewise.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
As far as tires go on Mercedes' models, I believe they stick with Michelin (mostly), Pirelli, Goodyear, Dunlop (on the M class) and Continental.
Glad to hear the snow is fine. I want to be able to take this car when I go sking in the Sierras. My guess is with chains, I'll be fine.
Pricing is kind of a interesting issue on this car. My goal on this car is to pay 500 over invoice. That's about 2 percent. My friend and I are going to take of the 31st and go to every benz dealer in the Bay Area until some one says yes -- the end of the month always helps get the price down.
Oh, yes, one more question... have people been paying the MRSP for options, specificly the automatic tranny, sun roof, and leather seats. Benz's options are the most expensive of any manufacturer out there.
Thx much!
Beth
-Mark-
My C230 is a 2000 model, but I really enjoy the leather interior! I think you will be very happy that you waited for it when yours does arrive. I really like the smell - mine still smells like new after almost 2 years!
Please keep posting & good luck with your baby when it arrives!
- Paul
Well, one way of "saving money", or more appropriately, spending a little less, would be to get the C5 option pkg, instead of picking and choosing parts of it.
From what I've read of others' deals, you should be able to build up from invoice on everything, including options, and negotiate from there. One exception is the cd changer, which you should try to get the dealer to throw in for free, or at least less than $400 (including installation). Not to plug this cheap site, but did you try the TMV pricing here? That should help.
I ordered my ccoupe in July, so no leather for me, but I'll be getting custom leather installed next month. Gotta love those IRS refunds!
So, is the CD changer $400 including installation? Please let me know.
I saw custom leather in a car today, very nice. They did a two tone and it looked great.
thx!
Mark -- Hang in there, the leather seats are worth the wait.
Beth
My comment above was more really about areas where you aren't able to deal, which seem to be the Fl or CA coast areas, where they're closer to MSRP, and they can afford to be a little more lenient on the cd changer, and they seem to throw the towel in on it easier, as a carrot.
As far as the Bose option, the problem is the fiber optic wiring of the stereo. You can't just add in upgrades or even replace the head unit easily. That's why the Bose might be worth it. For $600, it's not cheap, but any alternative would involve more money, and warranty issues. That's why I added it.
The easiest way to spend less on the car (standing on soapbox here) is to stick with the stick. $1400 is alot of money for a car that's less sporting, especially since everyone just tends to ignore the manumatic eventually. If you have to have it, fine, but if you're trying to keep the costs down, that's the first thing that I'd chop.
BTW: I'll be getting a two-tone as well; if done tastefully, they look great. Someone at mbworld.org has pics of his, and I'll be doing something similar.
Thanks for the advice, the point about the fiber optics is well taken. Really made me think.
I drove the stick, I did not like it very much. I liked the automatic. I loved the stick in the RSX -- it's the best darn gear box I've every driven. If I take that route, I'm getting the RSX.
Yes, I know that MB dealerships don't seem to deal in California, but, I'm buying the last day of the month, so that should help. I have never paid over $500 over invoice for a car and I'm not about too. Well see how they low they will go.
Do you have any idea how reliability has been on this car. It worries me a bit. Consumer reports does recommend the car, but next to the RSX, my guess is it will have more problems. do you have any insights on this?
Oh, post pictures after you have your seats done. I would love to see them
Thanks for your help!
Beth
On the stick, I believe Tom reported awhile back that the stick starts out stiff/notchy, but it wears in OK. The fact that there's some learning curve in the gear shift doesn't particularly bother me. I found the automatic's manual mode to have the same frustrating 0.5 sec delay as my wife's A4 has.
So, is the CD changer $400 including installation? Please let me know.
If the dealers only wanted $400, I would be getting that as well. The price I was given was $815. IMO, it seems that the only time that anyone gets it "cheap" is when they're not getting any discount from MSRP.
-hh
Good point about the stick, so that might make me reconsider, but then my knee might not. I liked the automatic alot, so we'll see what happens. I think I would buy the RSX if I go with the stick -- great, great gearbox.
You know you can buy the CD changer online and then have someone install it, I did the math, in my area, it's $500 for the whole thing. That's my solution.
Thanks for your help. I'm jealous of your heated seats. My sales rep told me to pay 2% over invoice, he needs to find a car that is not a special order. Heated seats are special order only he said especially in California (though today, it might snow in San Francisco believe it or not.) Hope the seats keep you warm!
Cheers,
Beth
IMO, modern car HVAC systems have been good in that they help prevent temperature overshoot, but they've also lost flexibility/adjustability for getting precisely what you want. I see seat heaters not really as a feature as much as compensation for this shortcoming. I use seat heaters to run a cold cabin temperature to help keep my head alert while driving.
FWIW, imagine putting cold air on the driver's face on a low speed fan, simultaneous with some warm air on the windshield defroster on a medium fan, simultaneous with hot air on the driver's feet on a med/high fan, simultaneous with no hot air blowing on the passenger's feet.
Possible (I've done it) in a 17 year old 911.
Not possible in today's cars.
-hh
I find this a most attractive solution, cosmetically and convience-wize. I've had a car with a multi-disc and I found that I tended to never chage the discs even tho I was fed up with the tunes on the changer. I just forgot about it until I was in the car.... (a glove box changer would be easier than that but still you have to remember to take out the cd's and change them)
Just wondering if this is a good deal or being ripped apart. One dealership is offering 27000(incl dest) for an auto with ash cloth interior and bordeaux.
All the dealing so far of course over the internet have yet to actually speak to a 'real' person. My numbers were actually 26915, so in effect paying 85 over the msrp!
Whats the consensus?
MSRP Base: $ 24,950
+Metallic: $ 00,640
+Automatic: $ 01,300
+Delivery: $ 00,645
>> Subtotal: $ 27,535
This is $620 higher than what you listed, so I suspect that you might have missed including the price of the optional metallic paint.
(FYI, the respective invoice price should be around $25650, with delivery added back in)
BTW, I've been told that M-B was going to increase their delivery fee from $645 to $695. Worth checking into this to see which number your salesman is using.
Overall, this appears to be a ~$500 discount, which is not quite a 2% discount. Since the markup from Invoice is 7% and holdback is 3%, they're still making ~$1900 (7%-2%=5%) + $800 (3%) = ~$2700 on this sale.
If you can do better seems to be a question of region and individual dealerships. I got a 3.5% discount off of MSRP, so that would be roughly equal to this deal being ~$500 sweeter; YMMV.
-hh
OK, now that I got that out of my system, I'll get to your observations. It sounds like you had a lemon. I still don't think that the engine is all that loud, but I usually drive with all of the windows down and the stereo up, so that might have something to do with it.
If you drove the auto, then there is no cranking that has to be done. All you need to do is turn it to the right for a second, and it'll start up. Keeping it in the crank position does nothing, so it sounds like the car that you drove had a problem. Ditto with the white smoke.
I've had mine since Sept, have 6k on the odo, and have never had a rattle. Anyway, you whacked it and it didn't have the rattle anymore, so what's the problem?
Automatic problem: who cares? I got a manny.
Not that it matters to you now, but I wouldn't evaluate the model based on one drive of a car that sounds like it has issues.
I'd suspect that the car had been sitting for awhile, possibly with a low battery charge. I haven't personally witnessed, or heard of, of any problems here that I'd consider unique to the car. FWIW, my 911 tends to blow a lot of white smoke for ~30 seconds after it has sat idle for a few weeks, but if I then drive a few miles on an errand and restart it, its fine. Ditto for taking it out the next day, etc: it has to sit for literally more than a week to trigger it.
Re: 'Agricultural' engine noise. You're probably hearing the supercharger, possibly under a short period of low/cold lubrication. The supercharger can be removed from the engine, if you want :-)
Re: Cargo cover/rattling. I hadn't experienced any noise/rattle during any of my test drives. Cargo covers are usually removable; it sounds like you had one that wasn't snapped in properly.
Re: firm shifting automatic. Yes, its Teutonic. The manual shifter is too, and needs some driving to help loosen it up through wear-in, as well as user learning curve.
Re: back seat firmness. IMO, most seats require some break-in, and sufficient leg & head room is more important to me, and both are adequately present.
FWIW, what you missed commenting on was the lousy tachometer in the dashboard layout (Oh, and the lack of a rear wiper :-).
-hh
It starts like a charm everytime. The noise is a little louder at first before the car has had a chance to warm up but after a few momemts is smooths right out.
I did have the rattle comming from the back when I first got the car but I found out what it was and it was fixed in a day. When you lift the hatchback door and look up you will notice a rectangular access panel on the door. This is what was making the noise. The dealer added some insulation which took out the vibration and I have not head the noise since.
With regards to the lack of a rear wiper, I must add my two cents. I have not had a situation yet where I felt the need for a rear window wiper. The window does not appear to get as dirty as I once thought it might even in the rain I can see clearly. It has not snowed much in CT this year but the one or two storms were no problems.
My only gripe is the 1/2 second or more delay going up or down the gears when shifting manually.
It takes a little bit of the fun out of moving through the gears.
The tach did suck and so did the lack of a rear wiper
Tommyp13: I agree that the Cabrio is a very outdated design, but it does make sense. It's the ONLY true 4 seat european convertible under 30k. The room inside is simply amazing and its quite comfortable. Sure the engine pretty much sucks, but it is durable. This car is far from overpriced though! For 23k, you get auto, leather, seat heaters, power 6 layer cloth top (it has an absolutely beautiful and luxurious feeling soft terry cloth liner on the inside), alarm, power everything, fog lamps, 4 wheel discs with ABS, alloy wheels, and side airbags. You can get one for as little as 18k if you forego some of the power accessories. I think thats a deal in convertible land! Especially when a Mitsu Eclipse Spyder with less features starts at 24k and the little Miata starts at 21k. Not to mention that the Cabrio is one of the most solid convertibles around and actually has a usuable trunk. When you look at all its pluses, you can see why people still buy them. I would even get one if it offered the 1.8T engine. But currently, my heart is set on a Miata. I will give the C230 another chance if I can get my hands on a 6 speed though.
I wanted to thank everyone for their help. Yesterday, I bought a C230. Paid $500 over invoice (buying on the last day of the month really helps) and got a black with a gray interior, sunroof (YEAH!)and automatic tranny. I love this car so far.
I need to buy a cd changer for the car. (i just can't bring myself to put the Sony CD changer in my car, although I apprciate the suggestion.) I was told I need to have the MB dealership install the cd changer, so the changer and computer in the car sync. Is this true?
Let's talk about the Cabrio. It's a cute little car with great German handling and lots of extras for the price, but it's a horrible car. It has lots of problems. The board on edmunds has tons of people writing about problems. My Cabrio was so bad, I decided for force VW to buy it back under the lemon law -- this was after 50 days in the shop in 18 months. My story not unusal. It's a nice car, but beware. My lemon law attorney said they have more VW claims than any other. I will never buy another VW.
As for the C230. It is a bit loud, but it is also very smooth with lots of power. Now that I have owned both, there is no comparision.
Cheers,
Beth
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
As far as starting goes - mine starts almost instantly, no cranking needed, really like that. Did not opt for the sunroof, so the noise level in my auto-C230 is not an issue. Its a taut ride, oweing to its sporting nature, which is what I want, and what we get.
FWIW, having 7 on the lot seems to be quite a number in stock, from what I've seen.
But I've noticed the dearth of sticks too. One MB salesman's opinion on the subject was that it seemed that he was getting a lot of customers wanted to get {Auto + Options X, Y, & Z}, but when it came down to getting all of that under a certain price limit, instead of deleting a certain option, they were deleting the auto. Interesting (if true).
So it seems that the trend is that sticks are being spoken for prior to their delivery, which infers that MB misjudged the relative demand breakdown percentages. Based on my experiences, you should be able to get the exact configuration you want (with a stick), with ETA being around 2 months from now.
Only one had leather. 3 of them were silver, 1 black, 1 white, 1 funky orange red color, and 1 bright red. So much for color selections, LOL.
Black, white & bright red are base non-metallic colors. The funky orange/red is "Paprica" (sic), which seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it shade. Silver is the old German standby. I almost considered silver, but its an extremely common color currently: its reportedly this year's most popular color (all cars; not just MB).
But overall, I know what you mean: I wasn't particularly thrilled with any of the available shades. I know its personal taste, but I was diappointed both in the color shades, their presentation, and how few real choices there were (no green, for example).
For shades, the blue is ok, although personally, I would have liked to have seen a lighter sky blue (similar to Porsche's Iris Blue Metallic), or a darker shade, such as the MB "Capri" (or deeper; approaching Navy blue).
Which brings me to choices. The "Capri" is offered for the rest of the C-Class, but not offered on the Coupe. I don't understand this one.
FWIW, Porsche's attitudes on colors is (from their website):
"If you can't find the colour you're looking for, we can also finish your 911 in virtually any colour you want."
For example, here's a nice Rainforest Green. I haven't been able to find on the web how much Porsche charges for a purely custom color, but considering that MB wants over $1K just for nonstandard combinations of existing colors, it can't be bad by comparison :-)
Personally, I went with the "Bordeaux", even though it was paler than a truly good red wine should be, IMO :-). Its not that its that bad of a color (I would have preferred it deeper), but from a presentation standpoint, I've been pretty disappointed in the metallics I've seen: none of them seem to really have any "depth" to them. I'm almost afraid that I'm going to start to refer to the Bordeaux as a "last week's flat bottle of cheap red, complete with stirred-up silt" :-)
-hh
Though I also test drove a coupe with the impressive and slick 5 speed auto trans; I am happy with the manual and glad that I got it.
Funny - - I noticed the same shortcoming in the C240 sedan: the arm rest & stick height made the manual transmission downright miserable for that configuration. Glad I was able to test drive a C230K with a stick before deciding.
-hh
That said, I agree with you, the colors they chose could be better. There was no color (with exception of bordeaux) that I liked enough to pay $640 and I love colors. I liked the capri blue and black opal, but not for a 3 month wait with a cost of $1600.
I'm afraid that green is out for now in cars. No car I looked at had a nice forest green (celica, rsx, eclipse, Rav 4, CRX, Tracker, 325i, wrx,) Perhaps next year MB will do better.
CD changer question -- does the cd changer skip in the glove box? It seems that it might from looking at where the changer is suppose to go? Has anyone tried to mount it in the trunk?
TIA!
Beth
For color, I wanted metallic, and the best of the non-special bunch to me was the Obsidian black. YMMV. Fairly basic, but a hint of interest. I would have taken the Capri blue in a heartbeat, but not for the extra grand.
When I test-drove (back in July!), the dealer had a stick w/o the sunroof, and an auto with the roof. I drove the stick and found it a little tricky at first, but not bad once I was used to it. Every time I've been by the dealer since, they've had at most two C230s in, and I haven't seen a stick even once.
Anyhow, my wife bought me a slot in a BMW Club racing school for my birthday, and I can't wait to tool around the track in my new 230. I'm sure that it will get some great looks from the Beemer crowd. I just have to break it in nice and gentle. Not to revisit this too much, but what's the consensus on break-in?
On the break-in question - I was told that there was one thing to NOT do.
- Don't take a trip during the first 1000 miles that engages the cruise control at a constant speed for long periods of time. So, a trip from NY to Chicago, or from Vegas to Salt Lake city, with it set at a constant 70mph is not good for the motor, or so I was told.
I know you are excited about getting that coupe in your hands beldain. I continue to love driving mine, a thrill every time I get behind the wheel.
When I was looking the Coupe, my only option color-wise was the Silver one. I do not like dark colors, as they are difficult to keep clean. Although a silver color is among the most frequently selected one, I still like it and can easily justify it as being a classic color for German racing (should I say sport?) cars. In addition, the only thing that I care is that I like it, and not how many such cars are around! Oh, by the way, although I wanted to lease a Coupe, I ended up leasing a BMW 325i, for much less money, and with much more reasonable terms, i.e., I fixed the lease at the end of January at 395/mo + $600 out-of-pocket, and the car will be delivered at the beginning of April, when my lease expires. I could not get the Coupe for that money, and nobody wanted to guarantee the price.
Sure. Suffice to say that I'm familiar with such aspects of production (in fact, one of my projects right now involves qualifying a new painting process that uses extremely low VOC's).
My point is that the production line is already set up to paint both the C240/C320 sedans and the C230K, so any color offered on the sedan has an extremely low production tooling/setup cost to also offer it on the Coupe.
Insofar as exactly how their lines are set up, I don't know: it is possible that the $640 charge for paint involves having to go in to swap and purge a few spray heads. But as such, does it really matter if the "can of paint" is Capri as opposed to another off-the-shelf color? The alternative would be banks of dedicated spray heads that are picked up by the robot arm: about the only "excuse" here is that the Coupe needs a different number of guns than the sedans to paint, but that doesn't sound all that extraordinarily likely.
About the only real thing I can really think of is that there's different characteristics between the different pigment compounds that affect paint quality and drying time. But this doesn't really fly because thats nothing more than simple process refinement, because if it wasn't, they couldn't offer the same paint on the standard sedans at the same price. So MB seems to not have any rational reasons not to offer it, other than non-Engineering based reasons of attempting to cachet certain available colors for marketing purposes.
Well, this note got too long for CD's, so I'll write that one up separately :-)
-hh
PS: I also dislike the maintenance of dark colors and I _almost_ went with the Silver, but I found that it didn't photograph all that well, it is "too common" of a color right now, and most importantly, it reminded my wife too much of my beloved old VW Scirocco which drove her crazy when I kept it for 11 years ;-)
There's a slot in the glovebox where the OEM is supposed to be mounted. IMO, this is a good place for it, for a couple of reasons (stays cleaner than the trunk; easier to swap out packets to change the tunes, etc).
A trunk mount is theoretically possible, assuming that an appropriate fiber optic cable could be rigged up that would support the OEM's proprietary configuration. Far easier would be to use one of the far less expensive aftermarkets that tap into your FM antenna and play on an FM frequency (FM modulator). The trade-off being cost versus being able to control the CD player off of the steering wheel buttons and head unit.
I'm leaning towards buying the OEM unit in the aftermarket for around $500 and installing it myself, unless the dealership is willing to do the work for under $50, which I would be willing to pay.
The reason I say this is because the first dealership I went to** claimed an amazing 2 hours of labor ($250), despite the fact that there's an installation kit, which means that for anyone who knows what they're doing (ie, has done it once before), it really shouldn't take more than ~45 minutes.
-hh
(** - I'm referring here to the MB dealership that lost my sale, not the one that I'm currently buying through. I forgot to ask the latter about the CD player, but I'm going to).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I bought my cd changer yesterday at autoclass.net. The whole set up was $478 with shipping. My dealership quoted me an hour worth of labor to install the changer.
Here are some great directions for installing the changer. http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=817&highlight=changer
Doesn't look that hard.
Cheers,
Beth
however if you open the roof completely, wind buffeting occurs even at just over 50 mph.
ed
The C 230 KOMPRESSOR engine seems to maintain the same HP output:
"In terms of power output and torque, the C 230 KOMPRESSOR (192 hp, 260 Newtonmetres) is the star of the new four-cylinder engine line-up. This version, which Mercedes-Benz will install in the C-Class Sports Coupé, delivers a fuel saving of 0.7 litres per 100 kilometres compared to its predecessor."
The article is a restatement of what was in the Wall Street Journal earlier this week.
The WSJ requires a paid subscription to view their archives, but this URL is currently up and free.
-hh
Thanks!
260 Meter-Newtons = 191.599116 Foot-Pounds
where 1 Meter-Newtons = 0.73692 Foot-Pounds
That turns out to be lower torque but more fuel efficient??? Notice the article didn't say an increase in torque but made a point of mentioning a "fuel saving of 0.7 litres per 100 kilometres..."