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Hyundai Azera Air Filter Benefits?
I read that someone installed a washable high performance air filter such as a K&N or Fram Air Hog and got and increase in MPG. Has anyone here tried it? Just wondering how true this may be. Even a couple mpg would be great.
Rich
Rich
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Just google K&N on the net and see what other people have said about them.
So either way...it'll help you save money in some way.
When you been at it as long as I have, you will learn and know that these
filters are not worth any horsepower or fuel economy increase.
As far as saving you money, this is not true either. Simply go over to Freds TDI forum and read all about it.
It seems that the slightly oily film can get onto the element of your MAF and queer everything up.
Have you priced one of those little items yet? When you do, tell me how you are saving any money.
As far as gaining any power at all, I had an Impala SS that I ran on a dyno.
The fee for testing my SS included two 'pulls' so the operator asked what
I wanted to change prior to his running the car the second time.
I removed the stock AC air filter element which had 17K miles on it, so it was not new, and quess what?
The horsepower readings were exactly the same!
Now if you test with no restriction at all from any filter and the H/P readings are exactly
the same, how can any aftermarket miracle filter be an improvement? :confuse:
Your mileage may vary.
That just proves one thing: There are fools born every minute.
How does using a messy oiled K & N filter improve air flow or provide more air than a stock paper element air filter?
Can you prove that you are getting MORE air then is needed, when you already have as much or more than you already need?
How are you saving any money when those messy and hard-to- handle after-market highly advertised POS costs so much to begin with? :confuse:
How often do you change your stock original paper element air filter? Ever priced your original paper element replacement filter especially when they are on sale?
Now tell me about how much money you are saving!
How many stock paper element replacements can you buy when they are on sale for the original price of one of these K & N pieces of junk?
I will go out on a limb and say that most people that are using these things trade their vehicles off before they begin to break even money-wise.
And during this time, are they getting as good of the engine protection that the original paper element provided?
Do you know what that oily film can do to your MAF? Priced one of those MAFs for your vehicle lately? Now tell me about saving money.
Have any of you run oil analysis so you will know if your levels of silicon are not going sky high?
It is your vehicle and you may do to it whatever you wish, and the people at K & N will love you for wasting your money. You are free to do that, but do not say that you were not warned.
Your mileage may vary.
Good luck.
It would seem to me that in the mountains of Colorado the air should be pretty clean and not loaded with smog or city pollutants.
I have never had a problem with any paper filter, and in the scheme of things, the cost of their replacement was low on the list of total maintenance expense.
I've heard good things about them.
Are you using them in all your cars now and recommending them to family members too?
I cannot tell if you are serious or not? But if you are, here goes.
Added to what I have said above in posts number 133 and 140, I have used them in the
past, but only on modified cars that did not have factory air boxes or room for them.
Examples are my supercharged Impala SS 385" "full race" sedan, my '78 turbocharged
diesel rabbit, or my turbocharged 77 Honda Civic (2 valve head) model to name a few!
Many of these cars were modified when I was younger and more foolish and had a few bucks to waste!
Many have heard good things about K & N air filters, but I cannot prove what they are saying to be true.
But there are those of us who know of people who have had problems while using them, and some
pretty knowledgeable mechanics and "tuners" have written volumes about why NOT to use them.
Sadly, I never did an oil analysis on any of my cars that had their filters.
I would bet that many who do use 'em will find that their oil will contain very high levels of silicon (dirt!)
I do not recommend them to anyone, even those people that I do not like!
If anyone would care to read where I got some of the information I know, please email me and ask.
Are you speaking from personal experience. Have you ever been four wheeling in the high off road moutain passes in the Rockies. Have you ever driven a regular car at higher elevation. You will notice a significant drop in power because the car is starving for air. Have you ever looked at a K&N air filter. There is almost nothing to restrict the airflow to the engine. If your're running in low range manuevering around a tight switchback on Black Bear Pass you'd be glad you had a K&N filter.
Don't knock what you don't know.
Fools born every minute. Are you one of them? I was merely stating facts that I know. You seem to be having a bad day and attacking other people for something you know nothing about.
Drive your car up Pike's Peak, it's an easy road, I think you could handle it and watch the drop in power. Good luck to you and I hope you have a better day.
Are you speaking from personal experience. Have you ever been four wheeling in the high off road moutain passes in the Rockies. Have you ever driven a regular car at higher elevation. You will notice a significant drop in power because the car is starving for air. Have you ever looked at a K&N air filter. There is almost nothing to restrict the airflow to the engine. If your're running in low range manuevering around a tight switchback on Black Bear Pass you'd be glad you had a K&N filter.
I would ask one thing: How old are you young fellow?
You are entitled to your opinion and that is good.
I'll bet I've got many more years experience at this then you do I am sure.
I drove up Pikes' Peak the first time in 1952. You?
Any vehicle will loose power going that high in altitude due to there being only 17 inches of pressure.
Didn't know that little fact did you?
Have you ever driven up Love Land Pass in an Eagle and had to stop and take the air
filter out because your 8V71 was dying because it couldn't get any air due to
the fact that the mechanics had not cleaned the air filter for how long?
Have you ever run any vehicle on a dyno. with or without any
filter and recorded any differences in engine output?
Well I done all that and more, and no, I am not having a bad day!
Like I said, I am only trying to enlighten you and any others that may or may not be interested.
If you want to believe me or not, that is entirely up to you.
It is, after all, your car and your money. Continue to believe anything you like.
You sound like one of those thinkers' that doesn't want to believe anything
other than your beliefs no matter what is pointed out to you.
Carry on, and good luck.
I have seen a K&N filter and I can see how it would not be as restrictive as a regular filter, but...I never thought about the oil used on the filter possibly causing damange to the MAF.
Then again, the manager of the service dept. I frequent has stated that changing to a K&N filter would be a good move on my car. When I go in to get the transmission flushed on Friday, I'll ask more questions about the oil messing with the MAF.
Before considering the K&N, I was thinking about a CAI, but...the Azera already has that. Would an aftermarket CAI be less restrictive than the factory set-up?
If there is no power change between filtered and unfiltered, I would think that more air to the engine would allow the engine to perform a little more efficiently. Would I be wrong in thinking as such?
Your 100% correct
Over the years I have bought the K&N B.S. and all I saw was
$$$ wasted.
Oh by the way K&N lovers I have a special formula for changing lead into Gold :=)
would allow the engine to perform a little more efficiently. Would I be wrong in thinking as such?
Yes, I'm afraid so. You already have more than enough air unless your factory stock air filter is completely
plugged up, and in that case, you would be experiencing power loss and poor fuel economy big time.
If you already have more air now than the motor can use, why would providing even more do you any good?
The idea supposedly with the K & N is that there will be less restriction and you
will therefore gain power and economy with even more air, which is pure nonsense.
To gain more power, you will have to introduce more fuel, and how would that improve your fuel economy?
Without some type of forced induction such as a turbocharger or supercharger,
how are you going to introduce more air into the cylinders?
If you already have a factory air filtering system that is efficient and it is providing you with
more air than is required, how will adding a larger air filter give you any gain? Think about it!
BTW, any gain from a CAI is provided not by it being less restrictive, but by it supposedly allowing
cooler air to be drawn into the cylinders. The cooler the intake air, the more Oxygen it contains.
Have you noticed how much more powerful your car seems on a cold day vs a hot summer day?
Right again!.
The optimum fuel air mixture has been determined by the engineers who developed the engine. The air intake is designed to accomodate that mixture. The addition of more static air will not change the desirable mixture.
Forced air can be advantageous, but the mixture would be adjusted to accomodate that increase in air pressure.
Most independent tests have proven that the aftermarket air filters are more hype than performance.
I have also seen performance increases ( without a CAI ) with the installation of a colder thermostat in order to keep underhood temperatures lower.
I don't drive on dirt roads, and have hardly ever changed an air filter, their capacity for air is way more than the engine needs.
If a vehicle has more air than it needs, then why is there a need for turbo & superchargers? If they introduce more air into the cylinders, creating more power...then you've basically contradicted your point about increased air flow not giving your engine more power.
So you're right, it's not about the amount of air available, it's the rate at which it is fed into the engine. A less restrictive filter would allow the air to flow faster into the engine than a filter that restricts the flow. Sorta like what happens with a vacuum cleaner hose. With nothing in the way, it picks up with ease. Hold a piece of cloth in front of it and it'll still pick up, but not as effeciently.
Most CAI systems are contained within the engine bay, so there is no cooler air going into the engine. Only way that will happen is if it is piped from outside the vehicle directly to the CAI system.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Seems that you are smarter than your average bear!
Thanks for explaining in words that I did not have.
When we do that, not only are the emissions changed (raised)but the fuel efficiency is lowered in most cases.
With gasoline being as expensive as it is now, and who knows what will happen 'down the road,'
we sure do not want to do anything to lower our MPG, do we?
I paid $3.379 for premium (91 octane) at Costco # 432 in Corona CA yesterday,
and that is down slightly from what it was earlier this month.
When a thinking person realizes how often he must or does change his air filter and how little that cost is, especially when he buys the replacement at Pep Boys when they have a coupon with a rebate or some such sale, that expensive K & N filter does not seem so attractive now does it? Throw in the extras for the K & N such as the special oil that you must spray on the element every time you clean it, the mess involved when you must clean it, and you must, and I think it is easier and less expensive to simply go out and buy a paper element and open up your air box, take the old dirty element out, perhaps vacuum out the box, wipe the dust out of it, throw in a new element and be done with it.
Not to be stupid here, but do any of you think I should change out the original paper element filter of my seven year old 2000 Ford Focus Kona model that has 36K miles on it. It runs very well. Tanked up yesterday and it got 33.04 mpg.
There is plenty of power. Catches 6800 rpm in first gear so fast I cannot believe it, and scratches rubber when
shifted fast going to second gear, so there can not be any restriction as far as air flow is concerned.
Oil analysis report from Blackstone Laboratories is 'in the mail' so I will
soon know IF there is any silicon (dirt) problem within the engine. :confuse:
Sorry for taking up so much band width!
It just forces the air into the engine at a faster rate, right?
In which case, a less restrictive filter would allow the air to pass through at a higher rate.
I will try to straighten this post out. IF I leave anything out, somebody jump in here and help me, please.
Zora Arkus-Duntov said it best when he said: "It's a Heat and Pressure Machine. As long as it can stand the heat and the pressure, it does not care." Or something to that effect. I was not there when he said it.
A great engineer and thinker who designed the Ardun heads for the Ford flathead V8 and was later responsible for "warming up" the 'Vettes for GM. Passed away (sad loss) eleven years ago. What a brain!
"A faster rate" No. But under higher pressure.
Think of a supercharger or turbocharger is being nothing but a pressure pump, that forces more air under pressure (higher than atmospheric) into the intake manifold and therefore the cylinders. No longer is the engine dependent on the current atmospheric pressure to be able to "breath" but with this pressurization,
it is able to use more air (oxygen) and therefore produce more power.
Your air filter does nothing to raise that pressure. It only 'filters' the air to remove dirt, bugs, or anything you don't want to enter your motor. The idea is for the filter to do nothing but what it is supposed to do, period.
It cannot raise the pressure, but if it is not big enough or efficient enough when used in your car,
it can be a restriction because it will be a restriction to normal atmospheric pressure.
Engineers go to great lengths to make sure that your stock air intake filter is as efficient as possible,
so forget the hype that K & N and others are trying to lay on you!
Hope I did not leave anything out, but I am afraid I probably did. Sorry.
A filter can only be but so efficient as it will block some air flow. By removing this blockage with something that's less restrictive, the air enters at a more rapid rate. Not as fast as what a turbo or supercharger would make it, but it's a non-mechanical concept of what the turbo/supercharger does.
Of course because it doesn't compress the air like a turbo/supercharger would, you don't get the same type of boost out of it. However, the key to more power is to get more air and more fuel into the cylider for a bigger combustion to happen.
Are you telling me that there is no difference in the amount of air getting into the cylinder between using a regular filter as opposed to one that's less restrictive?
Unless that is true, your argument makes no sense. And even if it is true, it does not make much difference.
A supercharger of turbocharger pressurizes the air, making it more dense, making its oxygen content higher than air coming into the motor under normal atmospheric pressure. A free flowing air filter does NOT do this.
Amen to that! Said in a few words, and to the point!
Are you telling me that there is no difference in the amount of air getting into the cylinder
between using a regular filter as opposed to one that's less restrictive?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
I proved to myself more than 10 years ago with my Impala SS that there was no loss of horsepower between a used stock factory installed A/C filter with 17K miles on it, and no filter at all.
Now tell me about restrictions.
There is no difference between your stock air filter system in most modern vehicles and these overly hyped and heavily advertised K & N supposedly "less restrictive" after market over priced junk filters.
If you believe that these K & N filters, or any other heavily promoted after market filter is less restrictive,
I know of a simple test that you may want to try.
This little gauge will cost you less than the price of a K & N filter, and you will be able to keep it and tell
whether your stock filter is becoming dirty and therefore clogged and in need of replacement.
The more something is advertised, the less it is actually worth.
A thinking person saw back in 1999 that the K&N air filter for his car was $44 and the aftermarket filters were running $18. Given the dusty conditions in this area (lots of construction), replacement of paper filters in both spring & fall is the norm. I'm still on that original K&N and have spent an additional $10 for the cleaning kit. Total cost: $54 + tax. If I had thought your way I'd have spent $288 + tax (over $300 total) with more to come.
At about one sixth the cost of air filters, my wallet prefers my thinking to yours. So does the ecologist in me who has not seen an extra 16 filters go to the land fill.
I was never too concerned about perceived increases in power or economy. If there was a change in power it was not detected. My fuel economy, though, has been quite good. EPA rated at 19/27 (17/25 under the revised rating), I consistently get 24.5 in city driving and 26-28 highway.
Internal combustion engines are most efficient when the internal heat is at the highest possible temperature. The cooling system is employed due to the fact that the materials used in the construction of the engine have limits to their ability to remain stable at extreme temperatures.
Most engine manufactures have been experimenting for years on ceramic engines that can operate at extremely high internal temperatures. These engines have proven to be extremely efficient with much lower fuel consumption.
A K&N filter is not that much unlike removing the stock air filter on the old muscle cars. Remember how you could hear that big four barrel carburetor enjoying that extra oxygen? The same principle is involved.
If you don't drive at altitude then a K&N is of probably no use to you. However, K&Ns have their place. Even the sticker has value because you don't have the guy at the instant oil change place trying to sell you an overpriced paper filter element that you might happen to buy on impule.
Yeah, oxygen burns with the gas. I expect the hydrogen and nitrogen burn there too. So?
So you think that big 4-barrel was enjoying extra oxygen when you took the air filter element out of the housing? And you think that because you could "hear" it enjoying it? Not hardly! It was just extra noise you were hearing since the air was making a racket bouncing around in the empty housing as it made its way into the carb. Oh, a little bit of that extra noise may have been the internal engine parts being ground down by the abrasive particles in that unfiltered air you were "treating" your engine to. (Mom, can I have another Snickers bar with my 44 oz. Big Gulp?)
Except for that one guy who posted earlier, sounds like K&N filters are a waste of time and money.
And if anyone trys to sell you an overpriced anything, just say no. You don't need no steenking stickers talking for you.
Right again!
At altitude the air is thinner. The percentages of nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen does not change.
A turbo charger forces more air into the system. The fuel injector are more precise in injecting a metered amount of fuel into the cylinder than the carb.
The engine computers utilized in todays engines are capable of adjusting the mixture and timing thru a series of oxygen sensors. These were not utilized in the old muscle cars.
At about one sixth the cost of air filters, my wallet prefers my thinking to yours. So does the ecologist in me who has not seen an extra 16 filters go to the land fill.
I was never too concerned about perceived increases in power or economy. If there was a change in power it was not detected. My fuel economy, though, has been quite good. EPA rated at 19/27 (17/25 under the revised rating), I consistently get 24.5 in city driving and 26-28 highway. "
You don't say what your vehicle is, and I guess it doesn't really matter.
But as one thinking person to another, I would ask why you are changing your filter twice a year?
You must pay $18 dollars for a replacement filter?
I just bought a Purolator for my Focus today that was a coupon special at Pep Boys for $7.53 including tax.
It will be the first air filter change in seven years and 36K miles.
I haven't looked at the original paper element for some time, but I'll bet that it's still good and still serviceable.
So for the cost of $54 plus tax, how long at the rate I change filters will it take me to "break even?"
The poor old Focus will be in the landfill long before wouldn't you say?
Now let us say that if I were to start using a K & N filter and the oil from it were to ruin my MAF
as has happened to many TDI vehicles as reported over on Freds.' Priced a MAFs for your car lately?
If you were to even know what the little electrical part costs, I doubt that you would gamble that against your perceived savings.
Unless you drive on dirt roads all the time or are off-road all the time, why are you changing your air filter so often?
Are you one of those drivers that changes your engine oil every three thousand miles also?
BTW, Pep Boys does not carry or show any listings for air filters for the Azera.
Purolator does list one for the Azera, but Pep Boys just doesn't stock it.
Now as far as paper air filters clogging up our landfills, do you read a newspaper?
How about paper barrel bags from the grocery store? We are talking paper here, not radio-active waste!
Carry on and good luck.
cylinder between using a regular filter as opposed to one that's less restrictive?"
Yes. What do you mean by less restrictive? Less than what?
There is virtually no restriction in a properly designed air box with an original paper
element filter installed within that isn't completely or partially plugged.
I have tested an Impala SS with and without any air filter element in the box. There was no difference in power output.
The original filter I removed was used for 17K miles, so it was not brand new.
BTW, that air filter box had extra holes drilled in it to increase the air flow to the filter. Didn't want to rely on the single somewhat smaller air intake leading to the filter. Many in our SS group were doing that simple modification.
For those who would like to know just how much restriction there is in their own set up no matter what filter is being used, try:
http://www.filterminder.com/fleet/howfilterminderswork.asp
And if you still want to know more about WHY NOT TO USE any other filter other than a good stock paper element, read:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=174067&highlight=air+filter+restriction+gauge
Now IF the information there doesn't get you to at least Think About It well, what can I say?
BTW, notice how many individuals belong to Freds.' Also, how long that forum has been up and running.
There are some really smart fellows there, and they do know one hell of a lot more than yours' truly!
Have you ever been to the NHRA races and watched the naturally aspirated Pro Stocks run. Are you aware that they make less horsepower at altitude? Do you think they are running paper air filter elements.
As previously stated unless you've driven at altitude you have no idea what difference a K&N filter makes. It makes a difference.
If your theory on the noise of a Carter AFB running unrestricted as being air bouncing around in the empty chamber and abrasive particles grinding the engine to shreds you may have another Snickers Bar and a 44 oz Big Gulp.
Give it a rest. Why did muscle cars have air induction?
Buy whatever air filter you want and waste your money on paper but please give us a break. You've made your dislike of K&N filters well known. Trying to prove your dislike using warped science isn't necessary. We know you don't like them and we don't care.
Easy guys, high blood pressure is worse than low air pressure.
This is a forum of opinions, don't take it too seriously.
Remember,they still sell vanilla and chocolate.
And some sell strawberry as well.
Oh..buy the way, I'm still not sure about the anwser to my origanal question.
Rich
IMO, for non tech guys, sticking with OEM type product is usually the wisest.
Many times it's the best for the high tech guys as well.
It will be the first air filter change in seven years and 36K miles.
A better question would be is why are you only changing your air filter once every seven years? Air filters are cheap maintenance whether they are paper, K&N, or anything or anything else.
You must pay $18 dollars for a replacement filter?
As I stated, there is a lot of construction around here. That raises a lot of dust. So much that doing nothing to a car will still lead to it needing a wash after only 3-5 days.
I just checked and paper replacement filters are down to $14.95.
So if you take the lower cost and, being generous, replace the filter every 15K miles instead of twice a year that's still a cost of $120+tax (I have about 130K on the car). Even with that schedule & price I'm almost $70 ahead.
Now let us say that if I were to start using a K & N filter and the oil from it were to ruin my MAF...
No MAF ruined; not an issue. When I clean the filter I follow the directions which include telling you to not oversaturate the filter element.
Are you one of those drivers that changes your engine oil every three thousand miles also?
While under warranty I followed the manual's service intervals for everything. Now that the warranty is over I go a bit farther between oil changes.
Now as far as paper air filters clogging up our landfills, do you read a newspaper?
How about paper barrel bags from the grocery store? We are talking paper here, not radio-active waste!
That's really off topic, but I read the Sunday paper & always recycle it. We also recycle glass, cans, plastic, and other paper products that can reasonably be recycled. A used air filter isn't a candidate for recycling because of the trapped dirt. You'd also have to separate it from the plastic housing. Basically go to the effort of tearing it apart.
We always get plastic bags at the grocery store. They are frequently reused for carrying other things and are recycled when no longer usable.
Air filters are cheap maintenance whether they are paper, K&N, or anything or anything else."
That is a valid point to be sure!
However, a better question might be:
Why waste the money and change it when it DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED?
In other words, if it ain't broke, why fix it?
I can tell by the way old faithful performs that there is no problem with my original paper air filter.
And just to prove my point to myself only, I am expecting an oil analysis result back from
Blackstone Laboratories momentarily. These results, among many other things, will tell
me whether or not my air filter system is functioning as it was designed to do.
Not to change the subject, but . . has anyone ever heard of an original Ford battery lasting for more than seven (7) years?
Many here might say:
"You'd better get a new one right away," as in today. "Do you want to be stranded?"
Battery failure does not bother me.
AAA plus my handy dandy Sears charger will take care of any battery problems I might encounter.
If it ain't broke, why change it?
Peace People.
I was just thinking about the battery thing.
Here in South Florida the heat must eat up batteries.
Every care that I have owned goes through batteries in about 3 years. It doesn't matter if I change it using the best battery made or the cheapest. They all seem to have the same life.
The crazy thing about my past car, an Infinity Q45, was that when the battery started to go the computer caused everything in the car to work improperly. One headlight would work while the other would not. The engine sensors would have the engine run rough, etc.
The simple act of changing the battery would correct all of the problems even though the battery test came out OK.
I sold my 2001 Tahoe last year at 65K miles and it still had the original battery and air filter also. If anyone thinks after that mileage that the filter was restrictive, it towed a 10,000 pound trailer back and forth to Florida from Michigan ( over the Smokie mountains ), on six separate occassions and never lacked for power from the stock 5300 motor.