Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Mercedes-Benz C-300 European Delivery

be325be325 Member Posts: 91
Hi everyone and the Host.
We don't know how to start a new discussion so we are placing this topic/question here.
We read that M-Benz is offering a 7% discount for Euro-Delivery and we wanted to ask others to share their buying and delivery experiences. We are interested in 2008 C-300 Luxury Sedan. Since we are going to Zurich in May, we thought we could explore this option. We also heard that instead of getting a package', you can pick only the options you want.
Are the prices quoted on the M-Benz website 'set in stone' or are they somewhat negotiable?
Thanks.
«1

Comments

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Here's a new discussion for you. :)
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    There seemed to be little interest in Euro-Delivery for M-Benz. I heard that BMW's Euro-Delivery is more popular. I like the 3-Series but don't like the RFTires...... readers have no positive comments.
    Well, it is possible that nobody is bying C-300 at this time or those who contemplate a purchase, don't visit this forum. I still hope that someone would share his/her experiences.
    Thanks
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    My wife and I just returned to Arizona after picking up our 2008 C 300 in Stuttgart. All I can say about the experience is WOW. First I'm 61 and have been a car freak from the day I bought my first VW back in 63. From my racing experience over the years I can tell you the new C 300 is one fine car. Everything works well. The car is quiet although not like my Lexus 430 but this is a great handling car with a great ride. Sometimes that is hard to find. I like BMW's but they can have a harsh ride. We took the MB Rally through the Black Forest which was outstanding. At 100 mph on the Autobahn the ride was perfect. We added several extra days to the MB Rally so we could visit some towns is Austria. The only thing I don't care for is the all the buttons one the dash. I would suggest to the people at Bosch who make the Radio, Nav System, and Car Information systems is go buy a Lexus 430 and take a lesson from the Japanese. You can install a touch screen like in my Lexus and a owner can work the system without a book the size of War and Peace. The Germans just make things to complicated. It takes to may action to get the information one wants to find. There should be no need for a Telephone dialing device on the dash. Get rid of all these gadgets and use a touch screen. This leaves a clean dash which means your not taking your eyes off the road trying to figure things out.
    Anyway Southern Germany is beautiful beyond belief and the cleanest place I have visited in Europe. Even the restrooms at gas stations were clean. The tour at the factory is very interesting and the lunch they serve you when you pick up your car is 5 star. Get to the deliver center early in the day because it takes some time to go through the paper work. The staff at MB was friendly and willing to help in any way they could. They all speak English as most Germans do. Do be prepared to spend some hard earned money. Things are expensive plus the Euro is much stronger than the US dollar. There is a 19% sales tax on all purchases so unless you have big pockets don't plan on buying lots of stuff to bring home. Gas in over $4.00 per liter. It cost me over $100.00 US to buy 3/4 of a tank of gas.
    Is it worth the trip and the little hassle to pick up your car at the factory? I say yes and I will do it again. Do the Mercedes Bend Black Forest Rally it is well worth it. If you can get your hands on a portable GPS for Europe I would do that. It will make you trip much more enjoyable. The unit in the car is for the US only.We had an issue finding our motel in Austria because of some road work that got us off track. If you want to contact me for more details just drop me a note at bybg703@aol.com
    Kenny
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Thanks for the report! When does your car get to the States?
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    Pat,
    The c-300 and c-350 are in the showrooms (Florida-Tampa Bay area). We are anxious to take one for a test drive.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let us know how it turns out!

    BTW, kenhiggi was talking about European delivery. I'm assuming his car is on a ship on the way over.
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    For those who experienced picking their cars in Germany. How far is the delivery center (pick up place) from the main train station in Stuttgart?
    Sindelfingen is south-west of Stuttgart??? Have no idea where the factory or delivery center are. I read that people get to Stuttgart and check into a hotel. Next day, they take a taxi to the delivery center, pick up the car and off they go! Since we are going to Zurich and have to pay to get there, we thought that getting a car at the same time could be a good idea (saving $2,300.00). We are taking a guided tour of Switzerland and are not interested in driving our car there. Anyone knows how far the "Drop off" place (in Stuttgart) is from the "Pick up" center?
    Thanks.
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    Ken,
    We are in the Tampa Bay area (FL).
    I didn't know about the Lufthansa deal. Is it something new? I know that some time ago BMW advertised one for two (a full-price fare)on Lufthansa.
    We know the approximate date of our tour but we are in the early stages of planning to buy C-300. I believe that an informed buyer makes fewer mistakes. I saved and printed info in your posting.
    The train from Zurich to Stuttgart, may actually pass near Sindelfingen or make a stop.
    Thanks again.
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    When you order your car from a dealer for EDP you receive a packet with two taxi tickets. You should plan to stay over night in Stuttgart and you head to the factory at about 0830. It takes about 20 minutes to get to the factory. If you want to visit the Merceedes Museum it is closed on Mondays. The deliver center really takes care of you but plan to spend 5 to 6 hours. This way you get to tour the factory. It is all very simple and you will enjoy all they have to offer you. Visit your local Mercedes dealer and ask for the book they have on the European Deliver plan. It will give you lots of information on the program.
    Kenny
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    It takes 8 weeks to hit the East Coast and 10 weeks for the West Coast. I hope to receive the car the third week in October. I'm not sure why it takes so long when they have ships leaving for the US all the time. This is the only down side of using the EDP. Other than that it is a great way to save a few dollars and have the fun of driving your car around Europe. I highly recommend doing what is called the Black Forest Rally set up by Mercedes Benz. You can add more days to the trip if you wish and their travel agency will help you out with all the arrangements. Your local dealer has a book on the EDP which outlines the plan.
    Kenny
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    Thanks Kenny. Your posts are first-class. Informative and do a great service to all of us who are ignorant about the process ...but thinking about taking that route.
    Where are all those M-B salespeople who brag about how many cars they sold/delivered through Euro-D and how often they travelled to Germany but seem ignorant about basic details.... when asked.
    Again, great post(s) and thanks for sharing. We all wait for you to tell us about the final stage of the Euro-D process ..... your first spin at home.
  • be325be325 Member Posts: 91
    For those who ordered 2008 C300 Luxury. When you ordered your car, were you charged an additional $260 Luxury Sedan fee? I was told that this covers the change of the Sport Grille (apparently the Sport Grille is standard on all C models) to Luxury Grille.
    Thanks.
  • mbineumbineu Member Posts: 1
    Kenhiggi
    I am also in AZ and am looking to do EDP on a C-350. How long did it take from the time you ordered the car with the dealer before it was available for pick-up in Germany? Which dealer in AZ did you go through? Did they offer any additional discounts?

    Thanks for the help!
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    When I ordered my car back in July when the cars were just starting production. They gave me a date in August that worked out just fine for us. I'm sure you can get it faster now that they have production ramped up. We took delivery on August 13th and we dropped it off in Munich on the 18th. The car arrived in Scottsdale on September 21st.

    The trip was simply the best trip I have ever had. The car is absolutely fabulous. I do feel the radio/nav system is to complicated but in time I know I will get use to it. The Lexus LS-430 simply has a system that is much more user friendly.

    I bought the car from Schumaker in Scottsdale. My sales agent was Bill Lambert who was very helpful and very patient as we drove a number of cars before settling on the C-300. Bill is their EDP specialist and I will use him again in the future. I had them through in tinted windows. I sure they are not giving any more than the 7% discount because the cars are selling as fast as they come in.

    Good traveling,
    Kenny
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Anyone has any experience with EDP in California (south or north cali)? Which dealer gives a better deal? Does each dealer has a different schedule as to when we will receive the car? What fees are negotiable?

    Also, when do we actually pay for the car (bill of sale)? I want to get this through financing.

    Thank you.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    You pay for the car 30 days prior to delivery overseas.

    Discounts will be small to non-existent....there is very little wiggle room on the OSD price at the dealer level. Won't hurt to try, but keep your expectations realistic.

    No difference in delivery times.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Thanks.

    How much down payment to put down to get the whole process started? When is the soonest the car can be picked up after placing the order?

    By the way, do dealers make money from this? If they don't, they probably don't like us doing EDP right?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Most dealers like a $500-$1000 deposit on any car, including OSD.

    MBUSA likes to have 4 months notice on an OSD; they can sometimes do better than that, depending on options and color.

    Margins on an OSD are thinner than a US-delivered car, but the MB OSD program is a well-established tradition, and most dealers are eager to help. Many have at least one sales person who specializes in OSD orders.

    And in addition to the savings on the car, MB makes the experience a special one - factory tour, VIP treatment, etc. And the new Museum at the Unterturkheim location is worth a trip all by itself. [This is in downtown Stuttgart - the customer delivery center is in Sindelfingen, which is a suburb.]

    If you haven't already, you should go to the MBUSA.com website and read up on the OSD program - complete details on there for your info.
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    Hello,

    Is price on European Delivery Program negotiable or not? If it is non negotiable, then 7% off MSR price is almost the same as Invoice Price + $250-$500 on the same model C300 or C300 luxury. Some people reported that they got the car for Invoice+$250 and later into 2008 such price would be more attainable indeed. However if EDP price is non negotiable and US price is negotiable, then there is no real saving (7%) in European Delivery Price. When I bought BMW 318i years ago I was able to negotiate European Delivery Price. So please advise if EDP is negotiable for 2008 C-class indeed and how much one can expect to negotiate it? Thanks!
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Did you buy the 318i when the re-designed model first came out?

    7% discount off MSRP means about 2k discount. I think now you can only get at most $250 off MSRP. It may be more later but I doubt it will reach $2000 off MSRP that soon.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Everyone seems to forget that the MB OSD program not only includes a 7% discount on the MSRP, but they also waive the US destination charge, which is another $775 on a C-Class, or another 2%. If you use the bottom line USA MSRP as a benchmark, your actual savings are closer to 9%, not 7%.

    That said, of course everything is negotiable, but don't count on big discounts on an OSD - dealer margins are very slim on an OSD [unlike BMW, where the OSD markup is virtually the same].

    I still say, you don't do this strictly for the money - if you're planning to go anyway, and are planning to buy a new car anyway, the OSD program is definitely worth it...but it's the experience that makes it worthwhile more than the pure $ saved.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    ". . .if you're planning to go anyway, and are planning to buy a new car anyway. . ."

    Bingo! Absolutely correct, and don't forget the potential cost of a rental car for a week or 10 days in Europe, which is significant, at least in my income bracket.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    Hello:
    I got the following terms for 2008 C300 luxury edition with navigation package lease with European Delivery Program:
    39 months, 12,000 miles, residual 61%, money factor 0.031
    0% down, i.e. $1,665 at sign time which includes first month lease.
    With EDP they also give one month free (for the time they ship the car back from Europe). Monthly payments including taxes $450.00
    The dealer is in New England. Is this a good deal in your opinion?
    Thank you.
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    Sounds like a good deal to me. I must tell you that the more I drive my C-300 the more I like it. I can't count all the cars I have had with many being built in Germany but the best is the new C-300. It gives a great ride but when you push it into a corner it handles like a sports car. I now enjoy driving again. Thank you MB for a job well done.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Hi,

    So, you will end up paying $1665 + 38 * $450 = $18765? What is your tax rate and also what does it mean 1 month free? Also, you mentioned about 61% residual value, what is that value at in terms of the actual number? Money factor 0.031 means a 3.1% APR right?

    I am in the market for EDP Luxury with navigation package only. I haven't really thought of leasing though. I am not really familiar with leasing terms, so pardon my ignorance.

    Thanks.
    Will
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,933
    Also, you mentioned about 61% residual value, what is that value at in terms of the actual number?

    Residual value is calculated from the MSRP. So the MSRP x .61 = buyout price at the end of the lease.

    Money factor 0.031 means a 3.1% APR right?

    APR = MF x 2400

    so, actually, the poster meant .0031, which equates to 7.44%.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • mbdickmbdick Member Posts: 7
    My wife and I took European Delivery in late September 2007 on a 2008 E320 Blutec, drove about 1500 miles through Austria, Switzerland, Italy and France before dropping the car in Nice for shipment to Jacksonville. The delivery process was wonderful - friendly, smooth as silk and full of creature comforts. MB really took care of us.

    There are a lot of posts about whether this is a money-saving measure. It is, but in our opinion, that is secondary to the experience. I found not a lot of negotiating room on an '08 Blutec for US delivery, so the 7% + all the extras (taxi to town and to Sindelfingen, first class hotel, $100 top notch lunch at the factory, 15 days of zero deductible insurance, shipping, dealer prep, etc.) + not having to pay $2000 for a 15 day average size European car rental, made the numbers pretty friendly.

    The factory tour opened this engineer's eyes to what MB puts into the design and manufacture. As far as mileage goes, we averaged 34.5 mpg for mixed city/country/highway. I suspect we will see 37+ highway once it is broken in.

    Great car, great experience both recommended.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Thanks, qbrozen.

    Mike02, what is the MSRP on your car? I tried configuring EDP Luxury + Multimedia package only = $33,341. 61% residual value = $20,338.

    So theoretically, it's $13,003 loan with a down payment of $1,150 and monthly payment of $429 for 39 months (adjusted for an assumed 5% sales tax).

    The Edmunds financial calculator (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/financing/calc/loanCalc.jsp?mode=full) with 7.44% interest rate shows monthly payment of $343, a difference of $86 a month.

    I was trying to see how do we consider whether a lease option is a "good" deal. I do realize about the mileage limitation.

    Thank you.
    Will
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    Paid $32,000.00 for European Delivery Price.
    C300 luxury with navigation package, non-metallic paint.
    Dealer in Massachusetts.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Mike02,

    $32,000 is a very good price. How did you get that low?

    Thanks,
    Will
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,933
    Well, Will, this is a pretty complicated question, and I'm sure you can find many different answers to it. In my humble opinion, a lease is a good deal when it is subsidized by the manufacturer with either extra money, a low rate, or a high residual.

    For instance, I have 2 leases now. A Honda and a Chrylser. The cap cost on both cars was well below invoice (very very far below invoice in the case of the chrysler). The Honda lease deal at the time also included a strong residual and a very low money factor that equated to about 1.9%. At the end of the lease, the car will not be worth the buyout, but I get to give it back and walk away, and Honda Finance will lose some money when they sell the car. On the Chrysler, the rate is 0.7% and it also carries a residual higher than its true wholesale value. So in both of these cases, it was much cheaper to lease the vehicle than to buy it, at the time, and I have saved a good amount of money compared to buying and selling after 3 years.

    On the current rates I'm seeing with this C-class, I would not lease based on that alone. However, the residual is quite strong. Whether or not the market will support such a residual cannot be guessed. Only time will tell.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Qbrozen,

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. So in general, a lease should evaluated on 3 factors: money factor (APR), residual value and manufacturer discount (which affects the MSRP at which the residual value will be based upon).

    Mike02 mentioned $32,000 for luxury with navigation package. The EDP price at mbusa website is showing $33,341. So, I was wondering how he could even get the price lower.

    From what I have heard, the C-class are usually sold with a few hundred off the MSRP nowadays, since it's still new and very popular. Plus, with EDP (around 2k savings off the MSRP), it's surprising to see that dealer will even go lower.

    So, I was just wondering how Mike02 is able to get that price? Did he try various dealers and get them to beat one another's price?

    I really appreciate the help.

    Thanks,

    Will
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    They took 7% + destination charge off MSRP automatically for European Delivery.
    Then I asked couple of dealerships for further discount. After few days of negotiations (over e-mail and phone) I got the mentioned offer from 2 dealerships.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Thanks Mike02.

    Wow, you got a very good deal. Can they do this again for me? =p I am in the west coast though.

    7% off + $1300 discount + a good money factor + residual value = it's a STEAL

    So just email / phone negotiations? Did you come to the dealership at all when all these negotiations are going on? Usually internet fleet manager are the ones handling these internet negotiations right?

    Will
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    I think they will be happy to repeat the deal for you, but you have to be physically present to sign all paperwork, to pay $2000 deposit and then you have to be physically present to receive the car when it comes back from Europe.
    I did not go to the dealership, just called and asked for European Delivery Specialist, someone who have done the program before. Then I said that I am very serious to buy now but I need better price. I said that I will not buy without discount. The fact that not one but two dealerships agreed to the same discounted price tells us that even with such discounts they are making good business with such deals.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,933
    So in general, a lease should evaluated on 3 factors: money factor (APR), residual value and manufacturer discount (which affects the MSRP at which the residual value will be based upon).

    Almost. No discount affects the MSRP or the residual. MSRP is set in stone. It is whatever the sticker price is on the car. And the residual is based on that. So, in other words, if the sticker is $34k and the residual is $21k, you pay $13k over the lease if you pay full sticker OR $12k if you get $1k off sticker OR $11k if you get $2k off sticker, etc.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • jseysejseyse Member Posts: 1
    Hi mike02,
    I am interested in doing a European delivery for a C-class (C350) and considering to move over to Europe for good. For this reason, I am interested whether it would be possible to just keep the car in Europe and stay without shipping it to the US. Does Mercedes write any information or penalties in the contract or other paperwork what would happen (or what I would have to pay) if I just don't ship the car over to the US and just keep it in Germany?

    Your help would be strongly appreciated.

    Thanks, Joe
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Well, for starters, you will have to pay the German Value-Added Tax if the car stays in the EU past [I think] 6 months...it might even be 3 months. This is spelled out somewhere in the EU Delivery part of the MBUSA website. They've just recently increased the tax again - I think it's now in the range of 18% or more on cars - you can Google on German VAT and see what you find.

    But beyond that, if you're going to live there for an extended period, I would really want to buy out of the MB EU catalog, not the severely limited choices offered by MBUSA. You can go to the EU MB website to get an idea of how many more choices you have - my personal favorite is the 2.2 Diesel that isn't offered here, but is a best-seller in the EU. Prices, of course, are higher than for most US-bound cars, but the savings over there on fuel costs will make up the difference pretty quickly - you really need to think hard about what you want, how long you plan to stay there as a resident, and do some serious math.
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    Is there a CD out there with European Maps which could be used in C-300 navigation system during European Delivery Tour?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    I believe that's available at the Delivery Center when you pick up the car in Sindelfingen. But best to check with MBUSA or the dealer to be sure.
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    The new system does not use a disc as I fiund out when I picked up my C-300. When I asked about a GPS for Germany they said the US bound cars have a US data base and they could not change the hard drive for Germany. Now they may have changed that sense August but that is what I was told. The old systems used a disc so they would provide a disc for you to use while in Europe then you would return it with the car and they would replace it with the US disc.
  • willy007willy007 Member Posts: 12
    Just wondering whether the hotels offer 2 queen-beds or 2 double-beds option?
    Also, anyone tried to have more than 2 person in the rooms?
  • kenhiggikenhiggi Member Posts: 7
    Get the phone number for the Travel agency from your local dealer. They have an 800 number and are very helpful. I talked to them several times and they are willing to help any way they can.
  • rick92rick92 Member Posts: 14
    to whom it may concern:

    I would be very careful about the EDP, these people are rather and impressively irresponsible once they (dealer and MBUSA) have gotten your money. If you do not want any troubles in court in regards to the quality of the product, I suggest you buy your car here and use the warranty they give you here. Their car warranty in Europe is useless and their customer service with some exceptions is rated from 0 to 10 scale on a "3" grade. You will have no support from these people in Europe unless you are a European and to tell you the truth, I am really thinking of buying a Japanese Lexus the next time instead of a Chinese Mercedes Benz.- Don't say nobody told you when you have a problem with these people.-
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Hard to understand where this is coming from.....huh??
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Um - you do know that when you buy a vehicle through the Euro Delivery program, you are buying it from MB USA and that is it a vehicle made to US specs?

    The only difference is that since you are taking delivery in Europe, certain new vehicle taxes are avoided - hence the discount.
  • rick92rick92 Member Posts: 14
    Does it mean that the european standard is lower than the american standard?

    I have driven Mercedes Benz in Europe, Eastern Europe and South America and their grip, feel, and touch are different when driven at high speeds. An specialist in Sindelfingen tells me that some of the components for US Specs are different. The car made for the US Market is not made to withstand speeds over 110 miles an hour for long periods of time and therefore some of its components including the fuel system where the first one to go is the NEW fuel pump.

    We in the US set the standard. We buy more Mercedes Benz than Central Europe all combined. These people in Stuttgart should be investigated by US Authorities in regards to safety, reliability of its vehicles and I am not talking about warranty and highway safety. :mad:
  • rick92rick92 Member Posts: 14
    For all of you who have interest in the Delivery Program:

    When you get to the factory to pick up the vehicle, you go through TOR 8, which is basically entrance 8, very nice, go to reception which is an open space, no security, you are taken to an specialist, you are asked to for the paperwork given by your dealer, passport (funny, they don't ask you for a driver license), then first tour starts at 10:30 am, you comeback at 11:30 am, by that time your car is ready for delivery, you sit down along 20 or 30 people from all over who are doing the same you are, somebody calls your name, you go into a big service area, they show your car, answer any questions, go over the insurance, gps (which will have the european maps downloaded after April 2008 - so they say), give you a garmin gps if you are a kind person, and tell you, for the first 750 miles don't go over 80 or 90 miles an hour which is BS because it all depends on how many days you are going to be there, right? It is something like, here is your new jet, the ceiling is 41000 feet, but for the first 100 hours, dont take it above 30000 feet and no more than 400 miles an hour.
  • mike02mike02 Member Posts: 13
    About European Maps: I am picking my car with navigation system on March 1. At that time European maps will not be available yet? Can they loan me Garmin GPS for the time of my european trip? Is this something that need to be arranged in advance? Are they providing gps for anyone who asks? Thanks for clarification.
  • rick92rick92 Member Posts: 14
    Yes, try to talk to the team leader. But, I will give you advice on garmin, it is good pronouncing german words, but terrible on french and please if you are going from point A to point B and you have already done your homework on satellite and google and everything else, do not, I repeat do not pay attention to garmin, use it as a reference, because it will take you through rural roads and I assure you 100%, you will be pissed. Don't take it up on your girlfriend or wife, it is not their fault.
Sign In or Register to comment.