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How does gas at $4 and higher impact you?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Well to me the point is one is clicking mileage, while your engine is warming up (anyway) vs no mileage warming up. So again, simple math given a 2 min warm up ( your 1/3 example, no mileage warm up, on a consistent basis) over a years time will literally give you hours of idling with no mileage clicking off, ergo less mpg per gal.

    So for example in my case on a daily commute a (one) static 2 min warm up will give me 9 hours (8.8) of idling @ .2 gal idle consumption.

    The other thing is the ideal operating time is app a min of 30 mins to 1 hour. You will probably not find this spelled out this way in almost any oem operating manual. If you operate less than that ( on a consistent basis), one is doiing so called doing "HARD" miles. vs "easy" miles of say daily 30 mins to 1 hour @ freeway speed limits of 65 mph.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Short trips on hybrids ANY CAR do not give it a chance to warm the catalytic convertor for optimum performance. Winter is hard on hybrid mileage OF ANY CAR.

    FTFY.

    :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right but the addtional difficulty is cold ZAPS battery amperage. Since there are more batteries to say (over and above the standard car battery) theres a whole lot of zapping going on.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    When I say "warm up" I'm not talking about how long the car sits in the driveway before taking off. I'm talking about how long it takes for the engine to reach normal operating temperature. And whether you want to express it in minutes or miles, your mpg on a shorter trip is still going to reflect a larger percentage of time warming up.

    If it takes two minutes to reach normal operating temp, out of a 6 minute trip, or 1 mile out of a 3 mile trip, that's still 1/3 of that trip spent with the engine warming up to normal operating temp.

    FWIW, I usually only let the car sit about 10-15 seconds, maybe 20, at the first start of the day. On a cold winter day I might let it idle for up to a minute before taking off. Even my older cars seem fine doing this, although I don't make it a habit to drag my '67 Catalina or '76 LeMans out for a drive to work in the dead of winter!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    Perhaps we are not communicating (I got your point the first time) . Indeed you are doing what I am doing, 10 secs and moving already. What is really the issue about the percentage of the trip doing warm up that you needed to repeat it three times now? I gave a few practical consequences and remedies.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very true that short mileage is not good for optimum mileage on any vehicle. So if your commute is very short, say under 5 miles each way, the extra cost and ultimate maintenance of a Hybrid is hard to justify. The green value of a hybrid is lost under those conditions. Basically you have wasted all the energy and environmental value with a hybrid by not using it to its potential.

    It seems we have done cost analysis and the 5 year 75k mile TCO on an Altima vs an Altima hybrid favors the non hybrid. Of course buying used and driving less than 15K per year would be even more pronounced in favor of the non hybrid.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited August 2011
    So if your commute is very short, say under 5 miles each way, the extra cost and ultimate maintenance of a Hybrid is hard to justify.

    True - but when that same commuting vehicle is used for a longer stop and go trip, then the benefits are realized. For instance my wife drives 3 miles each way to the train station for her commute. Then in the PM and the weekends her vehicle is doing parent duty - typically 20 miles a day and usually staying in our town. That's where the hybrid would shine.

    Don't forget - not everyone buying a hybrid does so for the economic payback. I know a few Prius owners who do highway commutes everyday - even they realize that the benefit is lost there but they feel they are doing something.

    Just to clarify - I'm not a hybrid hugger. We didn't even consider a Highlander Hybrid for our next vehicle which I hope to detail in the Stories from the Frontlines this weekend.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    According to Edmunds, the T Highlander hybrid msrp premiums are $10,050 to $8,200 over similar gasser only highlander basic to limited. So really one has to decide if the premium is worth it (if that matters at all) . Fuel economy.gov has the hybrid @ 28 mpg vs 19 mpg gasser only. So if the average American drivers yearly mileage is between 12,000 to 15,000 per year, one is off to the races.

    @ 15,000 yearly miles, the savings is 253.76 gals per year. @ 3.75 per gal $951.61 per year. So it will take (quick and dirty) 8.62 to 10.56 years to break even.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Which could work for us as we usually keep our cars 10+ years.

    If I were to consider a hybrid, economic pay back wouldn't be the only factor for me. I would actually consider a Volt like vehicle for my commute. I drive 38 miles round trip. Conceivably, I could commute on electric only.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    edited August 2011
    We bought an '06 Prius used last year and consistly get in the low 40s MPG in winter and high 40MPG in summer, with mixed use driving. On long highway trips we consistenly get in the low 50sMPG. As far as winter/summer and long trip/short trip driving, ALL cars get better MPG in the summer and do better on longer trips because of winter gas mix and time involved in warming up an engine (unless you're talking about the LEAF).

    With respect to long term costs, if you compare a Prius to a Camry long term for example, I'd say that the Prius would have more repair costs. However if you compare a Prius to any Nissan, Chevy or GM vehicle, I'd say the long term repair costs will be less for the Prius, given the long term reliability of the Prius.

    Our '06 Prius can hold 4 adults and their stuff as well as a Camry or Accord or other similar sized vehicle, with the exception that if you want hold three across in the back seat a Camry is better. So when we bought our Prius used, we looked at long term cost with respect to gas as well as maintenance & repair cost. It's the reliability & repair costs that turn me away from most American & European model vehicles in general.

    I'd say it's probably a mistake to switch cars solely for MPG purposes, but if you currently own an older car with questionable reliablity, then you should look at all the cost factors in the car purchase, including MPG, reliablity, repair costs, etc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited August 2011
    So an app yearly figure is 10,000 miles. It should take 15.84 to 12.93 years to B/E or 5.28 to 4.31 years LONGER.

    Neither TH nor Volt makes any economic sense.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    in La Mesa, CA runs for $3.91/gallon right now.

    That's premium 91 Octane for under $4. Still too high, but not $4.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • pat85pat85 Member Posts: 92
    edited August 2011
    My Camry Hybrid has a "Ready" light on the dash. It lights up when the car is ready to be driven. That light takes 2-3 seconds to ight Summer or Winter. Winter blend takes 2-3 miles off the average in town mileage. It goes down to 31 -33 MPG in Winter. Very short trips can drop Mileage to 28-30. That's pretty much the same in Summer and Winter. The Highway milage is 41 in Summer. 39 in Winter. Short trips cause the worst gas mileage, probably because there is little "coasting" in short trips. Coasting down hills charges the traction battery for almost no use of gas.
  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    Any way to buy non-ethanol gas for yor cars that don't get much use?

    Ethanol-laced gas can absorb water in 2 weeks.

    I have a F250 gasser I use for farm duty, and 1 tank can last 4 months, so I buy the real gas for it.

    Mileage is better too, as there's more BTU's in "real" gas.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The "ready" light doesn't mean the engine is warmed up. That just means that all the electrical systems are ready for the car to be driven. It takes a few minutes of actual driving to warm up the engine and catalytic converter.

    Of course this all depends on how cold it gets in your particular area. Places with mild winters won't notice as much difference. And those in hot climates won't notice as much difference between short and long trips for the same reasone.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    edited August 2011
    Any way to buy non-ethanol gas for yor cars that don't get much use?

    Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there are any ethanol-free stations near me here in Maryland. At least, according to www.buyrealgas.com.

    Would adding fuel stabilizer help, I wonder?
  • pat85pat85 Member Posts: 92
    In Summer, my Camry is heated up by the time I get to the corner -about 200 yards. In Winter I have to drive maybe a mile before it's heated. We had a very mild Winter in the DC area last Winter It would really snow to our South, then go out in the ocean and skip Md. Then it would hit New York and North. Too bad for everyone else.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    To me, the Cruze is a 3/4 length Malibu.
    I have looked at a lot of them.
    My mom couldn't tell the difference between the two until she saw them from the side.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Our BP stations have have 89 octane gas w/ethanol and 87 octane without. However, the non ethanol is about 15 cents a gallon higher in price. Personally, I've never noticed much mileage difference between them. When I had the pinging Ford's the non ethanol content gas helped that problem some. However, my Honda and Toyota actually seem to do a bit better mileage wise on the 89 octane w/up to 10% ethanol. Actually, they seem to do best with Shell 89 octane. The BP gas around here doesn't seem as good of a product yet they tend to charge more because I suppose many natives here always buy BP. Sometimes consumers are their own worst enemy.
  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    My daily commuter car(appliance) is an '06 civic.

    Until the ethanol was added year-round, they used a "winter blend" for about 5 months of the year.

    I could tell right away when they switched, as my mileage would go from 39-42mpg with summer blend, to 34-35mpg with the winter blend.

    The car runs about the same, but I can see the decreased mileage, and the need to fill up more often, especially since the silly tank only holds 12 gallons.
  • pat85pat85 Member Posts: 92
    I think that some compact non hybrid cars get into the 40 MPG range is by cutting weight. A full 12 gallon tank weighs 72 pounds. My Camry Hybrid with a full 18 gallon tank is carrying 108 pounds of fuel. I am sure my Camry carries much more weight by size also.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think winter and summer formulations definitely are different in mileage. It also seems that gas brands vary by region. Our Shell is good, but I've seen other posts where they don't care for Shell. I guess variation should be expected since its really different wholesalers who are adding the brand additives and distributing it. However, in my situation the BP non ethanol 87 octane really doesn't improve mileage over the Shell 89 w/10%. I admit, I was suprised by that. I'm assuming its the gas, but maybe Honda and Toyota engines just adjust well to the 89 octane stuff?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The national average is down to $3.54 for a gallon of regular, and in the city with the cheapest gas, St. Louis, the going rate was $3.08 a gallon as of Friday, according to the Lundberg Survey released Sunday.

    "The worsening perceptions of the European economies means there's a potential for the damage to petroleum demand to go viral worldwide," analyst Trilby Lundberg told Bloomberg News."

    Could gas fall to $3 a gallon? (philly.com)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    It's almost a certainty now that we'll see $3.00/gallon gas before $4.00, and if the world goes into recession in 2012 (hopefully not), we could see $2.50 gas. That prospect may well be keeping people such as Mahmoud Ahmedinejad of Iran and Hugo Chavez of Venezuela up at night, since their social contracts with their people requires oil to stay above $80/barrel. Of course, for Chavez, his cancer is probably a far greater concern.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Then there's this in today's paper:

    "The U.S. benchmark oil price, which is determined by trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange, or Nymex, has tumbled by almost a third since April. That raised expectations for gasoline prices to drop just as quickly at the pump.

    They haven't."

    Gas Stays High as Oil Drops (WSJ)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am not sure why the big spread. OPEC basket price is $103, Brent $104 and WTI is down to $79. That is a larger spread than I can ever remember. What gives? Looks like if you are lucky enough to get gas made from US crude you should be paying a lot less. Looks like gas prices are just about that wide. From $3.02 as high as $3.88. I filled yesterday at Costco form $3.63. Most of the stations were still at $3.75, my local Shell at $3.89.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    That wide spread can bolster the argument that gasoline prices have room to fall, especially if the price of oil should drop further. Anything is always possible with commodity prices, but I don't think we'll see $2.50/gallon gasoline unless the economy goes into a double dip recession. For that reason, I hope the pump price for regular will not drop much below $3.00.

    Another factor to consider is the fact that China's growth has been slowing, thereby moderating the demand for oil from that country. What would happen if China slipped into recession? That's a possibility if Europe and the U.S., the main markets for China's exports, were to go from slightly positive growth to negative growth.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    When crude prices are falling, it is a great time for others on down the chain to earn higher margins on the products they sell.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Was $3.169 in town this weekend. Took a 112 mile Drive down south for $11 bucks, where I drove about 3-4 hours. $2.50 gas would make the trip $8.77 or about the same as breakfast out for 1.

    Why should gas be more than $2.50? I hope not to support alternative fuel. That's like expecting the landlord to help a tennant buy a house.

    Low gas prices will dent under 25 employment for a change. A much needed change. Too many empty warehouses and strip plazas in my town.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    $3.17.... I sincerely doubt the price will ever go that low on gasoline here again. Current price is holding steady at $3.90, and we haven't seen $3.17 since before the "crisis" in 2008.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    RUG had been $3.09 for about a week but jumped 30 cents today. Managed to top off the Astro today before the increase. I'm driving the Mustang tomorrow and it's near empty.

    On the flip side, I fixed the Mustang brakes for a bit over $80. I just need to get some brake fluid and top off the res.

    AK, HI, CA, ID, CHI and NYC all seem to have high prices for gas. Ga is the lowest quite often.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    if the market for fuel efficient cars has cooled at all. Americans seem to have short term memory problems when it comes to gas prices.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think the segments are struggling longer term to carve out a much higher population of fuel efficient cars. Also when you say small to compact cars (25% of the passenger vehicle fleet) it really does not convey a lot of information, as there are small to compact cars that really do not get "good" fuel mileage. I think you can reasonably guess that the more higher mileage cars would tend to come out of these segments.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The front rotor is warped a tiny bit. Not enough to feel when braking. When I spin the rotor with the wheel off, there's a spot where it takes more force but my fingers can still move it around. The other side doesn't have this problem. Could this effect mpgs? I also felt the rotors after a 15 mile drive and the one side felt slightly hottter. They were both too hot to leave my fingers on for more than a second or 2.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,674
    Yes.

    Try coasting to a stop or using rear emergency brakes to stop gently and see if the front rotors aren't hot. That heat represents energy from your gasoline due to rubbing of the rotors. Now if you used the front brakes to stop the car, they're going to be hot.

    Rebuilt calipers. Or rebuild yours with fresh seals on the pistons that will pull the piston back more readily and with new rubber slides on the positioning bolts on the calipers.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Remind me to go to Keith's house when I need brake work done.....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I will try the emerg brake thing. I picked up the front brake tool I need..a 5/16 hex. Priced rotors at AZ. $31 for a 1-yr and $44 for a 2 yr. Fifty something for a 3 yr. A 2 mpg difference over 5000 miles would pay for one. Now I have the tool to take it apart, I will probably get a set of pads and do the fronts. The backs ran $100 total with tax and that included new caliper mount brackets for both sides, new pins, one rotor, lifetime pads, and a new hardware set. The mount brackets each came with the slider grease packet so I have plenty left.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't think demand is pushing oil and gasoline prices right now. One of the factors may be that Wall Street is exchanging WTI (west Texas) futures and moving more into Brent (UK) futures which are priced much higher. WTI reflects the excess of oil in Cushing, Ok and therefore the US right now. They seem to feel Brent better reflects global pricing (or could it be they will do whatever it takes to keep oil prices high and protect their commodity positions at the expense of American consumers?).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Even at less than $4, high gas prices hit us HARD in the pocket...

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-10-21/high-gas-prices- /50846298/1

    Americans are increasingly hurt by high gas prices, because many lack options that would enable them to reduce the costs of driving, a report today says.

    Although gas prices have recently dipped, drivers will have spent a record $490 billion on gas by year's end — $100 billion more than the prior year , according to the "Energy Trap" report by the New American Foundation, a non-partisan research group.

    Consumers are no longer responding to price increases as they did in the late 1970s, when many drove less and bought more fuel-efficient cars, says author Skip Laitner, who analyzed U.S. government data. When prices hit $4 in 2008, he says, demand for gas fell only 3%.

    Middle-class workers simply don't have alternatives, says Laitner, an economist at the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. He says many moved to distant suburbs when gas prices were lower and can't afford now to move, buy a more efficient car or switch jobs.

    Also, he says many lack access to public transportation.
    "We're locking ourselves in, and it becomes almost a downward spiral," he says, noting that people are paying for gas by cutting other spending.

    "Significant numbers of people told us they're cutting back on food," says Lisa Margonelli, the foundation's director of energy policy. Her team surveyed a representative sample of 2,000 Americans.

    She found those earning $15,000 to $20,000 a year spent 10% of their income on gas and those earning $50,000 to $60,000 spent 4.6% . She says the average family of four now spends more on driving than on health insurance or taxes.

    David Kreutzer, an energy economist at the conservative Heritage Foundation, agrees that many Americans might not be able to change their behavior in the short run but will do so over time. He says automakers boosted cars' miles-per-gallon to meet buyer demand when gas prices rose.

    Kreutzer says funding public transportation is a "horrendously inefficient" solution. "What people really need is a good job," he adds, noting the real problem is not high gas prices but a "very bad economy."

    Stockbroker Valerie Williams says she commutes 90 minutes to Fayetteville, Ga., because she can't afford to live in Atlanta, where she works.
    "Regardless of what gas prices are," she says, "I have to pay them."


    See the full report
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Gadhafi's death won't be a big game-changer in the short term," said Patrick DeHaan, senior petroleum analyst at GasBuddy.com in a phone conversation with Inside Line on Thursday. "I don't see prices going below $3 per gallon."

    Consumers will be subjected to a "rollercoaster" ride with gas prices, said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst for the Oil Price Information Service. Kloza predicts that gas will average about $3.40 per gallon from now through Thanksgiving with prices rising to as much as $4.25 per gallon in the spring."

    Gadhafi's Death May Not Ease Gas Prices, Experts Say (Inside Line)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    People don't usually own the same car forever, so they can buy a more efficient one the next time they purchase, if they need to.
    In the short term, people can be locked into whatever they are driving now.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    My new car started out at 25.4 but now at 9k miles, it is now getting over 30 mpg for typical combined driving. I have a 15 mile commute and 8 miles is on a congested interstate. The commute just became less than a gallon a day, and gas is currently $3.29. A jump to a 45 mpg vehicle like a smaller hybrid could only save me $1.10 a day.

    If I occasionally take my V8 4X4 truck, the fuel cost nearly doubles as it only gets 16 mpg for the commute. Once a week in the truck adds $14 per month to fuel costs. Twice a week adds $28. This year, the fed gov gave green energy companies about $30 a month in subsidies on my behalf. Money that can develop cars like the one I mentioned above that could save me $1.10 a day. Isn't that only spinning wheels and getting nowhere, and even getting nowhere requires the shelling out of $27k for a Prius?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2011
    $1.10 a day at 5 days a week over the course of a year (no vacations) is around $280. That's about 25% of my annual car insurance. It's not exactly chicken feed.

    But you're right about the jump - if your only commuter vehicle was the truck getting 16 mpg, going to 30 mpg should cut your gas bill more than going from 30 to 45. I'd do the math but I'd mess it up. :blush:
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    It's not exactly chicken feed.

    Considering I pay $19.99 per 50# bag of feed for my chickens and generally go through about fourteen bags per year, I'd say $280 is just about exactly chicken feed. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Probably costs more to keep them warm in the winter than that. You hit zero yet. I don't miss that cold weather at all. My son still lives in Wasilla and said so far not a bad fall. He is building houses.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,680
    edited October 2011
    I don't give mine artificial heat unless we get sustained temps lower than -30, but I do have to give them light. It usually works out to about two or three weeks of heating per year. If the cost of that came anywhere near the feed cost, I would not even consider keeping them. The next house I build, I'm going to integrate the animal quarters into the house design to use residual heat from the rest of the structure.

    The weather so far has been truly fantastic. I don't think we've hit zero yet (perhaps briefly in the low lying areas). The temps have slowly dipped down so that we started staying below (or hovering near) freezing during the days about a week ago, and generally don't see lower than about 15 at night. Considering it is not uncommon to have highs of around zero this time of year, I'm quite pleased!

    I almost came in to work yesterday evening, but decided that the cost of the fuel vs. the three hours of work wasn't a reasonable trade-off. So, I stayed home, washed the dishes, and finished up laundry instead. :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2011
    Did you get out to Maine on your last road trip? They have these huge spreads where the barn is attached to the house. You can walk a half a city block and go from your house to the garage to the woodshed to the shop and then to the 8 stall barn without spending a dime on snowblower gas. Something like this.

    The aroma from the free heat might do you in though. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I like that place. I do long to live on a farm again. With a nice stocked pond. Not sure I am up to all the work maintaining such a place. I find my acre rather daunting at times. Not to mention the gas just to get a loaf of bread in town.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I do long to live on a farm again

    What - you retired and daydreaming or something? Can't earn a living on a farm unless its a big corporate affair any more. Those fertilizers and other stuff will get you a case of cancer as well.
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