Honda Civic Care and Maintenance

bd21

There is nothing wrong with the gas that you are using. You lost me on your cranking technic. All modern cars are made to start by simply turning the key directly until the starter engages. You should not touch the gas pedal at all until you are ready to move and slowly turning the key through all positions has no positive impact on start up, you are just taking unnecessary extra time. Warming up a vehicle prior to movement doesn't make a difference or improve the life of the vehicle either. Oil flows as soon as the motor starts and it ready to drive within seconds. If you start the vehicle again the normal way, and you smell a strong odor of gas, it's time to leave it at the dealer and let them check it out after it has sat overnight. Good luck.

srockr

Spoke to someone else at dealership about gassy smell and they said car still new (under 2,000 miles) and sometimes engine still burning off stuff. Don't know if I buy that or not.

Have not really smelled the small lately. Temps are not as cold as they were when first noticed this.

Will be due for oil change sometime (not sure when I'll get it but won't wait too horribly long) and will have them check out car then.

Since I have heard Hondas can have a hard start problem I have turned the key just one notch (to let idiot lights go out) then started it up. Never have any problem with starting when I do this.
Thanks for the input.

srockr

Forgot to mention that I never touch gas pedal when starting up car

rivertown

Actually the cat converter stinks more than any car I've ever owned. Smells more like rotten eggs (sulfer dioxide) than gasoline, though. Dunno why, but the smell is more noticeable when it's cold.

BTW, mine's an '02 Si.

bd21

There are some coatings on the engine that do give off smells for a while, but it's not a gas smell. Hondas aren't any harder to start than any car. It sounds like you are doing everything right, so I wouldn't be to concerned unless you really smell a strong odor of gas again. You have a very good dependable car that will last you a long time, if you just follow the severe maintenance schedule in your book, regardless of your driving style.

dudka

the day i picked her up i noticed the blue smoke coming out of the tail pipe after a 30 mile drive back home, it did not smell like oil, but rather like scented wood. i called the dealer they said it was normal. now i have over 1000 miles, and once in a while i get the smell, when sitting in traffic and having a tail wind, while there is no visible smoke, i do smell burning wood/paper. dealer also suggested that i monitor oil level. mine is a notch above the low dot, i will have to wait and see if it goes eny lower.
mine is a 2002 Si as well.

rivertown

I've chalked it up the cat. Makes me feel virtuously 'green', LOL.

port_48

I'm a bit bothered by the A/C compressor automaticially engaging when I select defrost. I read the manual & understand the thinking. I guess the really annoying feature is that the A/C won't disengage when turning the knob from defrost to some other setting. Anyone attempted creative wiring to make it so the A/C shuts off when moving out of defrost?

Thanks.

dudka

the new honda vehicles are controlled by computers, so there are few cheat codes, like in games. for the a/c the trick is:
1. make sure the key is out of ignition.
2. turn all the knobs on the HVAC to the counterclockwise most position.
3. with the left hand hold the A/c and recirculation button.
4. while holding, turn the key to the on positon.
5. after 5 seconds you will see the recirculation button start blinking. keep holding both until blinking stops.
6. you can start the car.

when you select defrost you will be able to manually shut off the A/c. however, if you have the a/c on in defrost, it will not automatically shut off when you select other modes, but at least you have the control over a/c in defrost and defost/feet modes.
don't forget to run a/c once a week for 15 minutes to lubricate the seals, even in the winter.
Take care

dudka

i am working on figuring out how to make the power windows to "auto up" it works on the element.

port_48

Let me know when you find the code for "god" mode, especially if it's radar/laser eluding. Never running out of gas would be a cool feature, too.

dudka

God mode, aka cop evasion mode
option 1: spend $300-400 and get your self a decent radar detector with jammer.
option 2: Drive within the speed limit.
option 3: see solution for "Never fill up again"
Never running out of gas mode:
Stop driving vehicles with internal combustion engine and get your self a bike!

rocko62

Any opinions are appreciated...I have an '84 Civic that has been wonderful for 19 years (trouble free), now all of a sudden when you start it and give it gas it wants to bog down big time. It idles fine and if you pump the pedal you can get it to run smooth at about 3k rpm's but anything in between is real rough. It almost feels like a car feels when you take off one of the spark plug cables but that's not the prob. Could it be a fuel filter, timing, points, trash in the line?? Anyway, thanks in advance for any comments.

dudka

when was the last time you had the spark plugs, wires and distributor cap and rotor replaced? i would suspect those as the prime culprit. I had an 85 civic hatchback, and it would run rough in wet weather, same sympthoms: idle fine, bogs down upon acceleration and then runs fine at higher rpms (i did not have Tach one it, so can;t say about the exact RPM)turned out that one of the park plug wires was slightly chafed, and on a rainy day it would spark to the ground rather than the spark plug.
Also, replace the fuel filter and air filter. i assume it is carbeurated, have that checked out as well.

bahmed

The reccommended tire for this car is 175/65/R14 81H. If I put 81S tires on it, is it o.k, or it will degrade the performance & handling of the car significantly.I am the second owner of this car, it runs great, the problem is the front two tires are Michelin MX4 81S and the rear tires are a mix of Good Year and Cooper, all 'S' rated.I need some reccommendation on whether to replace all the four with a 'H' rated tires or just replace the rear worn out ones with Michelin MX4 or equivalent 'S' rated tires.

Any experience and reccommendation with the 'S' rated tires on a 'H' rated car. Appreciate all your help.

kukareka

Checked service manual for Civic 02. It seems not a big deal to replace front brake pads. It's a little more complicated with rear shoes. Has anyone replaced pads by self? If you did, did you have to bleed brakes, or it's not necessary?
I wonder what was average milage you had on your Civic before brakes were replaced?
Thank you!

port_48

I can't imagine the pad replacement being exotic, nor requiring bleeding the brakes. If the pads are quite worn you may have found yourself having to add fluid in the prior months to make up for the displacement of the pistons. Therefore, when you remove the pads and compress the pistons back into the caliper the brake fluid may overflow the reservoir. You may wish to either keep and eye on it as you do the first wheel and/or use a syringe-type device to remove some of the fluid from the reservoir.

I have ~ 10k miles on my '02 DX 4dr and haven't bothered to check the pads.

jimc93si

I had an '84 S that I bought new and it makes me feel old that it's been this long. Follow dudka's advice, but also go through and check all those vacuum hoses. Since those Civics were before the ECU days, the whole motor was regulated by vacuum. I recall a similar problem that occurred out of nowhere like yours, and it was a hose knocked loose changing spark plugs or something. I traded that car in 10 years ago with almost 1/4 million miles on it. The only problem was the fabric coming off the edges of the driver's seat from getting in and out. Great car. Good luck.

kukareka

Thank you for your suggestions!
Adding brake fluid on monthly basis is not a solution. It may cover up a future indication that brakes are worn. That's why when you get oil changed at either dealer or some other place, mechanic won't add any brake fluid. Also, bleeding process requires reservior tank being full prior starting.
I think first I'll check thikness of pads and shoes. If any are worn, replace as a pair, then fill up reservior and bleed breaks to make sure no air is present in the brake system.
Is there anyone familiar with this procedure?
...my Civic has 25K...

brad135e

does anyone know how many watts the ex stereo has

bd21

As long as you don't open any of the individual bleed fittings or let the fluid drop below the visible part of the brake fluid reservoir, you don't need to bleed the brakes. However, the brake fluid should be changed every 3 years regardless, because brake fluid is made to absorb moisture. That is why it gets darker over time and that moisture can damage your calibers if you don't change it at least every 3 years. You definitely have to bleed the system when you change the fluid. You need a buddy or bleed kit to keep the reservoir full of fluid as you bleed each brake cylinder starting with the farthest one away from your master cylinder. Pump the brake pedal up and have someone open the cylinder fitting as you slowly depress the pedal. Do not push it all the way to the floor. Have a clear plastic tube attached to the bleed nipple leading to a container with brake fluid in it. This will keep air from being pulled back in the system while you are pumping the pedal. Repeat this process at each cylinder until all the fluid runs clear. And of course keep the resivoir full during this whole process. Also, use factory brake pads or aftermarket ones that are guaranteed not to squeal or you will not be happy with you efforts. If any of this process seems unclear to you, you are probably in over your head, so take you car to a good mechanic. Good luck

jerryg4

Can anyone tell me if my 95 Civic and 94 Accord has a transmission filter? I Took the Civic in to dealer for a fluid change and all he did was drained the fluid through a drain hole and refilled with new fluid. He said there was no filter. For this he charged me $60+ which was a lot considering it only took him about 15 minutes (could have done it myself for about $10) Also, is it recommended to flush the tranny or is it ok to just drain and refill?

Thanks

bahmed

Hi, Any reccommendation where to buy a the front door handle assembly (Driver Side) for my 1994 Civic. Please let me know. Appreciate your help.
Part # 39466, SR4 FRL ABS.

icvci

try manhonda.com. If you cannot find the part, call them.

kukareka

Hey, bd21, thank you very much for your advice!
I hope you may help me out with another question.
Let's say front pads are worn and get replaced. Will break pedal get adjusted by itself, after pads are replaced, or it has to be adjusted?
My understanding is that position (height) of the brake pedal is directly proportional to the thikness of pads and shoes (plus surface condition of rotors and drums). Therefore, while breaks are new or freshly replaced, pedal is at it's normal height. Soon as they get worn, pedal goes deeper and deeper with time. Is it so? Do you think that calipers get adjusted after/during pads replacement?
Thank you again!

bd21

Disk brakes are self adjusting, so you don't need to do anything once you install them. Here are some other pointers since it appears you are going to do it yourself. There are only two bolts that you have to touch to remove the pads. Pick the right ones. You really only have to loosen one and remove the other, which allows you to swing the caliber. That will allow you to slide out and remove the pads. If the rotor surface looks and feels smooth on both side and you had smooth normal stops before, you don't need to turn the rotors. If your rotors are questionable, you can have them resurfaced, if they haven't been turned to many times in the past. There is a minimum thickness but most people turning the rotor never check it. Autozone, Advance auto parts and most other major parts stores can turn the rotors for you or you can buy new ones for about $50 a piece. Now all you need a C-clamp and a small block of wood. Put the wood over the caliper piston and use the C-clamp to compress the piston. This will make room, so the the new pads will slide over the rotor when you swing the caliper. You don't need to bottom out the piston and remember as you compress the piston you are forcing brake fluid back into your master cylinder. That is why you wait to add brake fluid until after this step. Good luck.

bd21

Just change the fluid about every 2 years or 30,000 miles. It doesn't have a filter like you may be thinking of. There are some screens, but you don't need to change or worry about them. If you want to flush the system believe or not here is the process. Drain(yes that pan bolt) and refill fluid, drive it around the block, repeat two more times. Yes, I'm telling you the truth. Option two, call around and find a shop that has a flush machine. This is hooked up after they drop your pan and your entire system is emptied and refilled as it runs. This is the only way that you will actually get all new fluid in the system changed, because the torque converter can't be flushed with just draining. The bad news is they probably won't be able to do this with Honda Trans fluid. If you believe Honda it may affect your shifting if you use something else. Honda fluid around $3 a quart. Good luck.

chiari

okay, under the hood - it's looking pretty dirty. is anyone out there with civics against pressure washing the engines? any tips / advice?

imidazol97

How do I locate the bolt that is the drain for my 95 Civic. I'm going to try this
myself for a friend's Civic. How much fluid is needed for each refill?

How do I get the headliner back in place at the backwindow. It has dropped
down.

bd21

Here are the basics. Look in the owner's manual first, it may show you the bolt and it should at least give you the drain/refill capacity. Make sure you are not looking at total capacity, which will be several quarts more. Ball park is about 3 quarts, however put the actual amount required back in. Do not over service or you may do damage! You can also go to a book store and look it up in a Honda repair manual. Another option is to verify the correct amount of oil is in the transmission before you start as per the owner's manual. Follow the check fluid level directions. If it is serviced correctly, drain it out and measure the amount of fluid removed and service with the same amount. Lastly, you can call the Honda service department and they might give you the right information.

As for the head liner, if it is the felt material separating from shell, you can reglue is with spray contact glue from a parts store. If the shell has dropped, swing by any auto body shop and they can help you out for a few bucks. Good luck.

exploring1

I am due for my 20,000 mile maintenance on my civic. typically I take it to the dealership for oil changes/maintenance, cause they give the oil change for free if I do maintenance there. But this time, it is $180 for oil change, rotate tires, inspect, etc.. Which seems like a bit much? Should I take it there, or just go somewhere else? And if I go somewhere else, do I need to specify anything about which kind of oil/filter? What other things should I get done also? Will they know to inspect the cooling system hoses, axle shaft boots and all the other stuff honda says they do at the maintenance? Thanks so much for any help.

bjk2001

exploring1:

That's too much money. There sin't anything special for 20K. Typical 30K costs you $200-300 bucks from dealer. You should check other dealer in your area. Most of the inspection just inspect for any wear and tear. Save your money and spend @ 30K service.

Regards,

bjk

kukareka

Thank you, bd21!
It seems to me that you are very knowelegable about car mechanics. Please see if I'm following the right path with my project. Basically, brake pedal feels deeper. I guess it's normal condition for a car with 25K. So I started from checking fluid. Fluid is fine.
Then I checked front pads and disks for thickness. All are in spec. No need to replace either(pads are 8 mm thick, disks 20.95 mm with linearity of 0.01 mm). Next I'm going to inspect rear shoes and drums. Let say those are good too. Would you say that all is left to do is just to raise the brake pedal to spec and adjust its free-play? I was thinking about possible air bubbles in the lines, but car is new from start and was never obused (hard braking, racing, etc).
Thank you in advance!

kukareka

Hi, there!
A coin has two sides as you know. One: you go back to dealer, pay the price and they "will check things" for you. I bet if you look at receipts from previous oil changes, you won't find any word saying: for example oil pressure is such, brake pads or disks thikness is such, etc. Why? Well it's too much work to do and too much to put on receipt. All it says "inspected" or "accoding to such service interval". I can give you receipt like that. Will you beleive me?
You can always verify if they do what they say. Once you get out from dealer, take front wheel off and see if they greased brake caliper bolt for example, or if you can mark oil washer prior them changing oil, you can see if they replaced it.
I know I sound very sceptical about what dealers do. I apologize if this offends any GOOD dealer or mechanic that I'm sure hard to find. But I "broke my foot" a few times...
The only positivity I have about dealer is that they do Hondas only so there is less or no chance that wrong parts or lubricants are used.
Another side of the same coin is to go to shop "around the corner" and cut the price to 1/2 or less. The problem is, you have to make sure that mechanic knows your car's specs and has appropriate tools for it. I almost had a bad experience like that to prove my point. I had Civic 00, was busy at the time - went to "arount the corner", place where my co-workers changed oil on their Hondas. Oh they were sure that mechanic knew everithing about their Hondas .So I stand in shop and watch my car's oil is ready to be filled. Then I see that a hose from the celing aproaches to the oil filling port. I'm like: "looks like same oil they put to other cars", so I asked mechanic what oil is that? It happens that oil was different from that my car needed. Then he's like "oh, you have to pay extra for the oil from the bottles". I said, I don't care that it costs me extra, as long as I know that is the right one. Can you believe that? It says right on the oil filler cap and [non-permissible content removed]__e deliberately puts wrong one anyway. Besides this, one of those co-workers paid price later at dealership for her oil change savings. Dealer had to replace oil gasket because drain bolts threads were messed up and washer was never replaced so it leaked. She had a new CRV not even a year old. So $5 change she had even for 10 times could not cover $300 bill plus headaches and lost day of work.
My advice to you is to invest $70 to buy service manual for you car, study it, may be do certain thing yourself. Even if you'll end up going to dealer or "around the corner", at least you may question and check of what they say and actually do.
Good Luck!

macrosonic

Hi All -
I've got an 1998 civic that's due for the 90000 mile service at the dealer. I was wondering whether it's worth the cost. They're charging about $450 for the service, plus if i get the timing belt changed (along with everything associated with it) it would be about $400+ more. (the belts were making screeching noises this winter and when they tightened them he mentioned getting them replaced at 90k). $900 seems steep to me but maybe that's normal?
The other thing is that I will probably be selling the car in another year or so, but i average about 20,000 miles per year so i maybe I should get it done anyway. This dealer has done good by me in the past so I generally trust them (and I'm not a car-guy mechanic, so I won't do it myself) On the other hand saving the $900 towards a new car downpayment might make more sense at this point. I just don't want the car falling apart during my summer road-trips. haha. What do you guys think?

bd21

I do know a thing or two about cars. Your brakes are probably fine, but here are a few things you can check. Adjust the rear pads in the following manner:
-put the rear end up on jack stands
-spin each wheel and you should feel and hear some drag from the brake pads contacting the drum
-if there is no resistance, remove the tires and drums (you may have to smack the sides of the drums with a rubber hammer to break them free)
-adjust the calibers with a brake tool or a flat head screw driver to expand the the pads out
-only go a little at a time
-recheck each adjustment by re installing the drum and spinning it
-there should be some drag, but it shouldn't rotate to many times when you spin it

Now you can adjust any excess free play out of the pedal. Don't get carried away, it needs a little play. The only thing left after that is to bleed the brakes, but I don't think you will really need to do them. Good luck.

bd21

Yes you definitely need to have most of this service done, especially the timing belt. Skipping that could destroy your engine. However, I recommend you look for a foreign car repair shop that works on Hondas for your service. They should be able to do your complete 90k inspection (as per Honda suggested and required maintenance)for a grand total of $400 or less. There is nothing special about what a Honda dealer does except his labor rate is twice as much. Unless it is warranty work I don't take cars back to the dealer. I do all service myself. There is no requirement to ever take you car back to the dealer for service, just keep your receipts in case you have a rare warranty claim like engine failure. You may have to prove you accomplished the minimum required oil changes. Good luck.

swordfish555

Does any know for sure if the new Civic's come with a special break in oil as they proclaim? And is it necessary to not change it for the first 7500 or 10,000 miles? Thanks

theracoon

Well, Edmunds thinks my previous post violated the Intellectual Property rights of Honda, so I'll just summarize and tell you where you can find the information yourself.

The official Honda Ownerlink site (http://www.ahm-ownerlink.com) answers this question in the FAQ on Motor Oils. It says your Honda is delivered with a special oil formulated for new engines and strongly recommends that you leave it in until the first oil change, as determined by your driving habits and the Owners Manual schedule.

I strongly recommend you register your Honda at that site, and enter your vehicle's VIN, as you can also get notifications from Honda concerning recalls for your specific vehicle.

Good luck.

srockr

I have a black '03 EX Civic which is right over 3,000 miles. The service rep at the dealer I go to told me to change the oil at 3k, a mechanic there on the sly told me that 3,500 is fine. The owner's manual states 7,5k w/ severe driving and 10k with normal driving. What is the scoop?

Also took care into dealer shortly after I bought it and they painted areas that were scratched. Unfortunately there is some orange peel effects where they did the painting. (I had no idea what that was until someone recently pointed it out to me). Can this orange peel safely be removed and is the dealership responsible for this? (I bought it last November)

Thanks so much, really cherish my Civic and just want to take care of it...

theracoon

I have a black '03 EX Civic which is right over 3,000 miles. The service rep at the dealer I go to told me to change the oil at 3k, a mechanic there on the sly told me that 3,500 is fine. The owner's manual states 7,5k w/ severe driving and 10k with normal driving.

Trust your Owner's Manual. Changing the oil more frequently won't hurt your Honda, only your bank account.

Also took care into dealer shortly after I bought it and they painted areas that were scratched. Unfortunately there is some orange peel effects where they did the painting. (I had no idea what that was until someone recently pointed it out to me). Can this orange peel safely be removed and is the dealership responsible for this? (I bought it last November)

Take it back to the dealer and insist they repaint the affected panels. They did a poor job and you shouldn't have to live with it. If they give you any problem call the Honda office in your area of the country and complain. The number is in your Owner's Manual.

Good luck!

scottdude

I have a '96 Civic EX with 78K miles. It's been great, but I'm trying to decide whether to sell it for something newer, or put money into it to make it better.

One thing I'm wondering about is the ride. For the last few years, the ride has been getting rougher. I know this may be a dumb question, but what can I do to get back the smoother ride I had when I first bought the car? Is it just a matter of replacing the shocks? I have no idea what kind to get... any suggestions?

robw64

We have a 1999 Honda Civic (LX 4-door) which required it's first new battery this weekend, as well new battery post connectors due to extreme corrosion. After installation of the new battery, the engine idles very low and very rough. Everything else seems fine...windows, audio, lights, etc. We've searched the owner's manuals to find any info about the possibility of the vehicle's computer needing to be re-set or broken in again, but can find nothing. I saw in another town hall posting forum 2 other messages with similar situations (but no responses). Anyone have an idea what has happened and what we need to do?

Thanks!

mjg420

i've got a 2000 si with 42k. i am looking into replacing the oem tires before winter this year. anyone have any experience with yoko avid t4's? they are only $64 apiece at tirerack.com and have pretty good reviews except for excessive treadwear. i am also looking into a green high perf. air filter and wonder if they are any better than a standard replacement. thanks.

port_48

In my quest to be the cheapest fellow around, I bought the DX with hand crank windows, etc, etc. One of those etc is the meter group, aka gauge cluster, only including speedo, temp, and fuel. I've found meter group for LX/EX which includes the tachometer. Does anyone know if this is functional replacement? Looking at the Honda FSM it shows 2 connectors going into the cluster. Do these connectors include the tach signal and if I remove the existing cluster and replace with one including the tach will the tach work? Also, can I get the odometer reading on the new cluster to match what the existing one reads?

Thank you.

Wm
2002 Civic Sedan DX

rdmatos

Hello all- I am considering in buying a 2003 Honda Civic in Black-- ive never owned a black car and am wondering how easy are they to maintain. I wash my car once a week like clockwork, so that habit has been formed :-) My main concern is swirls, scratches, etc. and if they are more noticeable on Black paint. My sister has a 2000 Civic in silver which has many nicks in it (they're are black, which to me means that a black car would not show them as much :-) Any feedback on this dillemma would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and have a great day. -- RDM

gregoryc1

I just took my wife's 2000 Civic for it's 8th oil and filter change at the dealer. (Cost $23.95). Yes, I change the old and filter every 3,000 miles. The engine is VERY clean, quiet and smooth, and I don't use any oil between oil changes. Don't tell anyone, but I also use "Premium Fuel" and a "Top Cylinder Lubricant" in the fuel for the valves, piston rings and the injectors. I wouldn't want this information to get around, and become common knowledge. I have "great acceleration" with this combination, and the engine runs VERY smooth. Don't tell anyone about this formula! The "Honda Police" are everywhere! Hee Hee Hee!!!! -----Greg

bd21

It's obvious you want to take car of you car, but like many people who aren't mechanics you have been led astray by advertising or that friend who thinks he's a mechanic. You are on track with the 3000 mile oil changes, but you are absolutely wasting your money running premium fuel in a car that doesn't require it. The reality is you are forcing the car's computer to adapt to a fuel grade it was never designed to run. Let me break this down to the basics. You don't get more power or better performance with premium fuel. The higher octane in the gas is there to prevent precombustion or pinging in cars that need it. Usually it's required in higher compression engines, but engineers determine the requirement in the design for each engine. Same goes for mid-grade, save your money. The car will not run better, cleaner, last longer, get better gas mileage or gain any benefit whatsoever unless you make changes to the computer. The exception is of course unless you happen to have one of the cars that already has been set up by the factory to take advantage of both kinds of fuels. At best you haven't hurt your engine using premium, but the reality is you have forced your timing and emissions controls to operate outside of their specifications. Normally you don't need any kind of additive to clean up you top end, because they are already in most fuels. In your case though, you may want to keep using the additives to clean up the the self induced build up you are causing by trying to make the engine burn a fuel it's not designed to run. Now for the bad news since you have forced your car to adapt to the wrong fuel, going back to the recommended fuel may some difficulty. The computer may have a problem re adapting. It's your money and car, but it just amazes me what good things people think they are doing for their car. I don't expect you to believe every word I've said, so go to the library or use GOOGLE to do some real research. You will find out I gave you some accurate information.

gregoryc1

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to write this detailed posting. Please be assured that your efforts are greatly appreciated, but I must take an opposite point of view. That is what is "GREAT" about the United States,-------(we can agree to disagree)! The Honda owners manual states that your must use a fuel 86 or higher, so as such, the use of a higher octane fuel is "ok", (based on the "book of Honda"). On a computer controlled engine, when a "octane problem is noted", the "knock sensor" retards the timing in increments set by the vehicle manufacturer, until the vibrations are no longer noted by the sensor.--- When the vehicle is being driven on the highway, and you are accelerating up a hill, and you are in "passing gear", the possibility of an engine knock due to an "octane problem", is great. (The engine is working VERY hard). Should this be done on a "hot day", it only compounds the problem. I have been around engines, (marine and land based), all my life. Years ago there was "lead" in the fuel to lubricate the "top end of the combustion chamber", (vales, guides & piston rings). Today, we no longer have lead in the fuel, and engines are being destroyed by a carbon build up behind the rings, (because compression is used to push the rings against the cylinder walls, thus sealing the rings against the cylinder walls). This locks the rings in an outward configuration and acts like a "REAMER" on the cylinder walls. The valves faces are being destroyed, and valve guides are wearing at a rapid rate. The gasoline today contains alcohol. While this is an excellent cleaner, it is NOT a lubricant. I have used Marvel oil as an upper cylinder lubricant in Marine gasoline engines,(4Cycle & 2cycle), and land based vehicle engines for years. My vehicles do not have valve problems, rings problems, fuel injector problems, or carburetor problems. I have a friend that use this product in the fuel of an oil injected Yamaha outboard. The engine runs very smooth. I am only passing this information on as a suggestion. The quality of the fuel today is "poor", no matter what the name on the product. I have seen postings on automotive sites, where drivers comment that their vehicle runs differently from one week to another, yet they are purchasing their fuel from the same fuel vendor. I guess the quality of the fuel changes from one load to another! If an upper cylinder lubricant IS NOT IMPORTANT, why is a fuel being marketed on the fuel docks called "ValveTech"? This fuel, (with a lubricant),is being used in 2cycle & 4cycle outboard, 4cycle marine inboard & I/O engines, and diesel engines). Automotive engineers can only take you, (the owner of the vehicle), so far in terms of vehicle preventive maintenance. The automotive racing circuit probably has many people who do not have engineering degrees, that have a better understanding of what is going on in terms of engine wear, (in real life applications), than does the engineering community. They learn form a "hands on approach"! Remember the bottom line for an automotive manufacturer is to sell new vehicles. The bottom line for the vehicle owner;-- is to run his / her vehicle in an efficient manner, with the minimum amount of major service, for the maximum number of years without a problem. What works on paper, does not always work in the "Real World". Yes, I use premium fuel in my 2000 4cylinder Civic & 2003 4cylinder Accord, together with an upper cylinder lubricant. I believe that in the "long run", these engines will be in better shape, than a similar engine that did not receive this extra maintenance. It has been "GREAT" sharing our opinions on this subject. When my vehicles were new, I drove them without the upper cylinder lubricant. I believe that the engines idle and operate much smoother with this product in the fuel. Next time you are in an "Automtive Supply Store like; "Pep Boys", pick up a container of "Marvel" oil and read the information on the back! Give it a try, for a couple of tank fulls of fuel! (4 ounces to each ten gallons of fuel) Yes, it is safe for oxygen sensors and the CAT converter, and NO, I do not work for the company! ----Have a nice day. It was great sharing some information with you, and other people on this board. ----Just my opinion. ----Greg

bd21

Marvel mystery oil is great stuff! I first used it about 25 years and it definetly works. Here is my philosophy on maintaining cars and rarely do I keep a car for less than 10 years. I always do 3000 mile oil and filter changes. Believe it or not I use 69 cent oil that I buy on a military base that meets all of the manufacturer's specifications usually along with a Fram oil filter for 2 bucks. I flush and change my coolant every 4 years and I also replace my hoses and drive belts. Every 3 years I change my brake fluid. Every two years I change my transmission fluid. Other than that I simply follow the manufacterures recommendations for extreme operation regardless of driving habits. I generally drive 12K in each of my cars per year and I do all of my own maintenance i. e., brakes, struts, C/V joints etc. I currently own a 2001 Accord and 91 Nissan Sentra, both of which I bought new. I rarely see the need to use any engine additives. Most of them produce little benefit for the money. My thoughts are, buy a well made new car (Honda, Toyota, Nissan),take good care of it and you can keep it for 12 to 15 years. By then the paint is a little faded and I'm ready for something new. You can easily do this with any of the three brands I've mentioned and put 200,000 miles on it unless you happened to get a lemon without having to spend a dime on any additives. Needless to say most people don't take care of there cars properly and most don't keep cars that long anyway. That is why I suggested you save your money. You are actually doing more than you need to do, but that is definetly better than not doing enough. You sound like a smart guy and I can tell you like cars. It's been fun sharing experiences with you and I'll be happy to chat with you anytime Greg.