Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

berri

The gasoline thing I could never understand is how in the Midwest BP is so popular and can often even charge a few pennies more. Personally, I've never been impressed by it and never found anything that would make it compelling.

abacomike

Try this site - it shows a film about top tier gasolines and simplifies the definitions.  One of the major problems with direct injection engines is that they are more prone to accumulate deposits during combustion.  Top tier gasolines help to solve this problem with direct injection engines.

http://www.toptiergas.com/

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

there are a ton of cameras these days. Including all the private ones (on stores, etc.) which at least around here, the police have access to (tied into the network) when they want to check them.

you see how many whenever there is a crime they cover on TV, and have a bunch of video. and assuming all the CSI type shows are accurate, they can monitor all the traffic cams via plate recognition too, so basically plug in a tag #, and the computer can locate.

My bus has 4 cameras (3 of which are pointed at me) not to mention that every kid down to kindergardeners has a cell camera.

Once a little malcontent waved his phone at me like a weapon and yelled "my mom is a lawyer and will have your job". I responded "do you think she can afford the pay cut?". I wrote the little darling up and requested mom to come in and view MY videos.

Ain't technology great?

abacomike

oldfarmer50 said:

there are a ton of cameras these days. Including all the private ones (on stores, etc.) which at least around here, the police have access to (tied into the network) when they want to check them. you see how many whenever there is a crime they cover on TV, and have a bunch of video. and assuming all the CSI type shows are accurate, they can monitor all the traffic cams via plate recognition too, so basically plug in a tag #, and the computer can locate.

My bus has 4 cameras (3 of which are pointed at me) not to mention that every kid down to kindergardeners has a cell camera. Once a little malcontent waved his phone at me like a weapon and yelled "my mom is a lawyer and will have your job". I responded "do you think she can afford the pay cut?". I wrote the little darling up and requested mom to come in and view MY videos. Ain't technology great?

Love it!  

berri

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

carnaught

I think if you're going to have a red-light camera, it should be mandatory to have one of those counters counting down the light change to yellow. At least it gives you some warning.

abacomike

berri said:

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

It's not just improved performance - it's an improvement in efficiency as well.  As an example, the 2010 E 350 V6 got 18/27 (city/highway) mpg's.  In 2012, the E 350 V6 with direct injection got 20/30.  That is a great improvement in efficiency with just a change in the injection system.  It also went from 269 hp to 302 hp.

coldinohio

re GAS: costco on east side of cleveland had loss of pressure for RUG thursday; selling PUG for 1.499; 18 gal for ~$12; people line up and calling others

does this group routinely use Techron for DI engines?

abacomike

coldinohio said:

re GAS: costco on east side of cleveland had loss of pressure for RUG thursday; selling PUG for 1.499; 18 gal for ~$12; people line up and calling others does this group routinely use Techron for DI engines?

I buy 90% of my gasoline from Chevron which includes techron in it's gasoline.  I do not add techron for that reason.  But several guys here to add techron.  

Good of to hear from "coldinihio"! 

driver100

stickguy said:

I tend to lean toward doing what I can to avoid cheesing a red, so will actually make an attempt to stop for a yellow (without doing anything crazy). Though I do check the rear view mirror for someone likely to end up in my trunk.

sometimes though I cut it a little close, and get all nervous that I may have caught the red (and this is regular lights, not camera ones). Then I look behind him, and almost a guarantee that a few people behind me just blew through without seemingly a care.

I do the same.....and that is what happened yesterday. I pretty well had to go through the yellow light and when I checked in my rear view mirror I saw 4 cars that were way behind me....and they went through...no amber light could have lasted that long.

I can't say I remember seeing a yellow light that I would say didn't last long enough....I notice some last a pretty long time but I think that is in intersections that cars tend to drive through on yellow.

I will say, if you are on a fairly fast empty road and you get 4 reds in a row, like oldfarmer mentioned, you start to think it might be better to try to get through one of them even if you could stop. I experienced that yesterday and fortunately I decided to stop - then I saw the cop waiting to go the other way on his green light....whewwwww!

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

Septa (philly transit system) has been installing cameras all over. In stations, on buses/trains, even body cams on the transit police. They catch all kinds of stuff that used to just happen. Riders love it, since a lonely station can be kind of scary!

so if you are in a subway station in Philly, don't pick your nose because someone in command central is watching. Though you might appreciate it if some lowlife tries to rob you, because they can dispatch police before you can call for help!

Except that that low life would be long gone before the police arrive. Remember when seconds count the police are just minutes away.

snakeweasel

carnaught said:

I think if you're going to have a red-light camera, it should be mandatory to have one of those counters counting down the light change to yellow. At least it gives you some warning.

When I approach a stale green light I look for a crosswalk light, many times they will give you a clue as to how soon the light will change.

snakeweasel

berri said:

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

That begs the question, what is the maximum number of gears that a car should reasonably have? I would say 6, 7 tops.

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

berri said:

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

It's not just improved performance - it's an improvement in efficiency as well.  As an example, the 2010 E 350 V6 got 18/27 (city/highway) mpg's.  In 2012, the E 350 V6 with direct injection got 20/30.  That is a great improvement in efficiency with just a change in the injection system.  It also went from 269 hp to 302 hp.

I would like to know what else is different from the 2010 and the 2012 that could also have an effect on fuel economy. a lighter weight, better drag co-efficiency, different gearing and the like can all have a positive impact on fuel economy.

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

It's not just improved performance - it's an improvement in efficiency as well.  As an example, the 2010 E 350 V6 got 18/27 (city/highway) mpg's.  In 2012, the E 350 V6 with direct injection got 20/30.  That is a great improvement in efficiency with just a change in the injection system.  It also went from 269 hp to 302 hp.

I would like to know what else is different from the 2010 and the 2012 that could also have an effect on fuel economy. a lighter weight, better drag co-efficiency, different gearing and the like can all have a positive impact on fuel economy.

I would like to know that myself - when you find out, please brief me!

All kidding aside, the only major change was in the injection system.  It still had the 3.5 L V6, 7 speed transmission, same wheels and tires, same gear ratios.  The major result was an increase in horsepower (278>302); increase in fuel economy by 12%; however, the torque remained the same.

stever

abacomike said:

Try this site - it shows a film about top tier gasolines

Propaganda.

I've always been a bit cynical about this sort of stuff and I blame it on GM. When I was growing up, my father had a '53 Buick Special. I had my first police stop while driving it at age 13, but that's another story.

I admired the Body by Fisher logo many times climbing in that Buick. Then one day when I was 9 or 10, I discovered that lowly Chevys had the same logo stamped into their door sills. It was a year or two after that I realized that Cadillacs had the same logo too.

So I started wondering why would people pay more for a Buick or Caddy when you had the same parts in the Chevy? Follow the money.

explorerx4

I believe that higher compression ratios go along with direct injection.

berri

But if DI fouls up the engine with deposits quicker, won't it need cleaning more frequently which may offset those efficiencies or reduce performance if not cleaned out? Seems like this complicated stuff doesn't respond to a bottle of Techron anymore and dealer costs to clean it out are expensive.

abacomike

berri said:

But if DI fouls up the engine with deposits quicker, won't it need cleaning more frequently which may offset those efficiencies or reduce performance if not cleaned out? Seems like this complicated stuff doesn't respond to a bottle of Techron anymore and dealer costs to clean it out are expensive.

Direct Injection, from what I have read, is more apt to cause increased deposits assuming the level of detergent additives in the gasoline only meets EPA standards. Gasolines with higher concentrations of additives are supposed to counteract those increased levels of deposits as a result of combustion.

Direct Injection in internal combustion engines has not been around long enough for engine manufacturers to ascertain the impact on engine life, assuming typical driving habits of the average driver.  Additionally, more research and testing needs to be undertaken to hypothesize what affect certain gasolines may have on increasing the levels of certain of deposits.

As was mentioned, I don't keep a car long enough to worry about it - but a guy like oldfarmer or those who prefer to drive used cars can be affected by this.

I just plan on continuing to purchase Chevron PUG along with Costco when I am in their neighborhood because I find my MB vehicles seem to perform well.  

As as far as propaganda, could very well be.

driver100

Well said...................twice

stever

Ha, didn't even notice the dupe (now gone).

stickguy

that is one thing that would make me think twice about buying a couple year old luxo car like a MB. how was it treated? easy to find service (that is free and not much required), but fuel used? Though 2 YO with less than 20K (what I would get) is probably safe enough for not having had permanent damage done!

abacomike

berri said:

But if DI fouls up the engine with deposits quicker, won't it need cleaning more frequently which may offset those efficiencies or reduce performance if not cleaned out? Seems like this complicated stuff doesn't respond to a bottle of Techron anymore and dealer costs to clean it out are expensive.

Direct Injection, from what I have read, is more apt to cause increased deposits assuming the level of detergent additives in the gasoline only meets EPA standards. Gasolines with higher concentrations of additives are supposed to counteract those increased levels of deposits as a result of combustion.

Direct Injection in internal combustion engines has not been around long enough for engine manufacturers to ascertain the impact on engine life, assuming typical driving habits of the average driver.  Additionally, more research and testing needs to be undertaken to hypothesize what affect certain gasolines may have on increasing the levels of certain of deposits.

As was mentioned, I don't keep a car long enough to worry about it - but a guy like oldfarmer or those who prefer to drive used cars can be affected by this.

I just plan on continuing to purchase Chevron PUG along with Costco when I am in their neighborhood because I find my MB vehicles seem to perform well.  

As as far as propaganda, could very well be!

abacomike

I have so many problems on this site.  Sometimes it will post, sometimes it won't. And other times, it will post twice.  Only since the ads started here on Edmunds have I had problems - about 4-6 months.  If an ad is changing when I try to post, I'm in trouble! 

abacomike

stickguy said:

that is one thing that would make me think twice about buying a couple year old luxo car like a MB. how was it treated? easy to find service (that is free and not much required), but fuel used? Though 2 YO with less than 20K (what I would get) is probably safe enough for not having had permanent damage done!

Stick, from what I've read about this, it takes quite a while for these deposits to build up sufficiently to cause anything major.  But a 2-year old MB with 20K miles should be fine.  It's those people who try to save money by buying mid-grade or RUG or gas from cheap-gas suppliers that you would worry about.

Buy your next MB from me - I take care of my cars! 

stickguy

sure. Buy a 2016 C class. dark blue or dark red over tan or gray. baby it and keep the miles low, and I will fly down in October 2017 to pick it up!

abacomike

stickguy said:

sure. Buy a 2016 C class. dark blue or dark red over tan or gray. baby it and keep the miles low, and I will fly down in October 2017 to pick it up!

abacomike

Happened again!  I give up!

roadburner

berri said:

Direct Injection - now here is an approach that I'm not really sure gives enough performance improvement to be worth the potential technological issues. Same goes for these umpteen speed automatic trannies. I think the jury is still out on turbo's. That will end up depending on how well they hold up over years and miles.

My DI car has made it to 158k with no engine issues apart from a couple of TSBs, a t-stat, and the previously mentioned EGR valve. A 2.3 liter motor that makes over 300 hp at the crank and averages over 26 mpg works for me...

driver100

stickguy said:

that is one thing that would make me think twice about buying a couple year old luxo car like a MB. how was it treated? easy to find service (that is free and not much required), but fuel used? Though 2 YO with less than 20K (what I would get) is probably safe enough for not having had permanent damage done!

I doubt if a 2 YO MB with 20k miles will give you any trouble, especially since you can get an extended warranty.....and whether you take it or not, they wouldn't do that if they thought people abused their previously driven MBs.

driver100

abacomike said:

Happened again!  I give up!

What i don't like is when it prints all 5 previous posts in the chain......and I have to try and delete most of the old posts....or it will take up too much space.

abacomike

stickguy said:

sure. Buy a 2016 C class. dark blue or dark red over tan or gray. baby it and keep the miles low, and I will fly down in October 2017 to pick it up!

What I was trying to communicate to you was that I tried driving a C Class, but the "twins" were squished.  My "twins" need more room than the C Class provides.  The "twins" told me that it's a CLS or an E, or they go on strike!  I don't know about you, "...but I listen to my "twins" when they complain about being squished!" 

abacomike

abacomike said:

stickguy said:

sure. Buy a 2016 C class. dark blue or dark red over tan or gray. baby it and keep the miles low, and I will fly down in October 2017 to pick it up!

What I was trying to communicate to you was that I tried driving a C Class, but the "twins" were squished.  My "twins" need more room than the C Class provides.  The "twins" told me that it's a CLS or an E, or they go on strike!  I don't know about you, "...but I listen to my "twins" when they complain about being squished!" 

Nothing worse than "squished" twins! 

abacomike

42 degrees tonight!  Just put the heat on.  Tomorrow morning, I suspect I will find out if my heated seats in the CLS work.  We actually will have a windchill of 39 degrees.  What the heck is a "windchill"?  Is that when my ceiling fan goes off the "deep-end?" 

stickguy

I will make sure to give the seats a thorough test at the car show in 2 weeks.

I do prefer the smaller size of the C class (even though the current generation grew a bit). Plus it should be cheaper than an E class!

abacomike

stickguy said:

I will make sure to give the seats a thorough test at the car show in 2 weeks. I do prefer the smaller size of the C class (even though the current generation grew a bit). Plus it should be cheaper than an E class!

Cheap is cheap! 

stickguy

And I am cheap!

just out of curiosity, I went to MB site and built a C300 4matic with what I would consider the minimum required stuff (though that site was confusing in terms of telling if you could unbundle). In any case getting BLIS, back up camera (how the heck is that not standard? Both features actually), and multimedia (which I may not have needed to get camera) MSRP was about $50,200. ouch.

Though finding that same car in about 2 years (21 months) for more like $30K with 20,000 miles seems a lot more palatable.

not sure I would want a 2014 at that point. Though it does have one nice feature: a spare tire and no run flats.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

stickguy said:

that is one thing that would make me think twice about buying a couple year old luxo car like a MB. how was it treated? easy to find service (that is free and not much required), but fuel used? Though 2 YO with less than 20K (what I would get) is probably safe enough for not having had permanent damage done!

Stick, from what I've read about this, it takes quite a while for these deposits to build up sufficiently to cause anything major.  But a 2-year old MB with 20K miles should be fine.  It's those people who try to save money by buying mid-grade or RUG or gas from cheap-gas suppliers that you would worry about.

Buy your next MB from me - I take care of my cars! 


What about the old trick of stomping the gas pedal to "blow the carbon out"? Does that not work on DI? Maybe not, the local BMW-MB dealer offers engine cleaning with walnut shells for a bunch of money.

I'd rather stomp on the gas and tell the cops I was performing routine maintaince.

abacomike

stickguy said:

And I am cheap! just out of curiosity, I went to MB site and built a C300 4matic with what I would consider the minimum required stuff (though that site was confusing in terms of telling if you could unbundle). In any case getting BLIS, back up camera (how the heck is that not standard? Both features actually), and multimedia (which I may not have needed to get camera) MSRP was about $50,200. ouch. Though finding that same car in about 2 years (21 months) for more like $30K with 20,000 miles seems a lot more palatable. not sure I would want a 2014 at that point. Though it does have one nice feature: a spare tire and no run flats.

Go to the Edmunds site and build the same car.  The MBUSA site has some quirks (as does Edmunds).  Also try building the car at TrueCar.  All three sites ask you to add options.  TrueCar allowed me to build my exact car and came up with my exact MSRP.  The other 2 sites did not.

driver100

stickguy said:

I will make sure to give the seats a thorough test at the car show in 2 weeks.

I do prefer the smaller size of the C class (even though the current generation grew a bit). Plus it should be cheaper than an E class!

I have no problem with the seats in a C Class so that is an individual type problem. The problem we had was my wife likes to have good vision outward, and in the NEW C Class design you are sitting low, the hood and cowl are high, and so vision is limited. Similarly, rear vision has been made smaller with a narrower smaller window.
That is why she opted for a 2015 GLK. Standard engine is the 330 hp V6 which is the same engine as the E400. Sales of the 2015 GLK were excellent, as people were snapping them up before the new GLC took it's place, with a 4 cyl engine standard and lower swoopier look, oh yeh, and pop up GPS unit.

btw, if it was just me and if the C Class was more manageable payment wise....I would buy it and get used to the limited vision......I just like the feeling I am driving a car that is engineered so well, and that has maximum quality.

Personally, I like the former C Class more........ a low mileage 2014 with a 5 year warranty would make for a really nice car IMHO. We considered that but at the time they wanted way to much for a low mileage 2014. There comes a point where it is worth it to pay another $5000 and get a one year newer car with a lot more standard features...like lane change warnings.

Good luck in looking........and one thing to really consider. Mercedes knows what they are doing in designing and making cars....they are designed right. Seating will feel good, it will be as safe as a car can be, the engineering will be as good as can be...and those things are worth a lot.

driver100

stickguy said:

And I am cheap!

just out of curiosity, I went to MB site and built a C300 4matic with what I would consider the minimum required stuff (though that site was confusing in terms of telling if you could unbundle). In any case getting BLIS, back up camera (how the heck is that not standard? Both features actually), and multimedia (which I may not have needed to get camera) MSRP was about $50,200. ouch.

Though finding that same car in about 2 years (21 months) for more like $30K with 20,000 miles seems a lot more palatable.

not sure I would want a 2014 at that point. Though it does have one nice feature: a spare tire and no run flats.

I think you have to consider how much you really want to spend on a car. If you are comfortable at the $30k mark then you have to get a 2 year old car if you want a Mercedes. To me, status is a small part....I like the fact it is engineered right. I am willing to pay more for all that goes with that, no clunky transmission, great handling, safety, well designed, quality products.....no feelings of taking short cuts.

Driving a C Class may cost $5000 a year more than driving a Fusion, but it depends on your priorities....belonging to a golf club could cost that much.

I have lived 80% of my life under budget restrains and if I couldn't afford an MB I would probably buy a used one. They can last for 20 years if well maintained, and it will always feel good.

ab348

driver100 said:

They can last for 20 years if well maintained, and it will always feel good.

But who wants to drive the same car for 20 years?

abacomike

Stick, I did some more investigation at those 3 sites in order to build a car. I tried building my CLS400 with the exact options I have but every time I clicked on the 19" multi-spoked wheel "package", it would force me to add air-suspension and something else, which my car does not have. The same thing with Edmunds. But on TrueCar, I could opt for the Sport Package (flat bottomed steering wheel, aluminum and rubber pedals, etc), which is about $479, which is exactly how my Window Sticker lists it. For some strange reason, MBUSA won't let you build it that way, but mine was built that way. Edmunds - same thing.

That's why I suggested that you use TrueCar to "build" the C Class because their site is more accurate. So, if there are packages or individual options available, it will show up on TrueCar.

abacomike

I decided to go out for breakfast this morning - I just didn't feel like making anything at home. As soon as I walked out of my front door, everything "on" and "in" my body shriveled up from the cold. It was 43 degrees out with a hefty wind out of the NNW. I got into my car and immediately put on my heated seats. My tire pressure in all 4 tires was 29 lbs each (yesterday, they were at 34 lbs each). That's how cold it was. It took 10-15 minutes for the engine to reach operating temperature and 15 minutes for the oil temperature to reach normal operating temperature. That was cold. Thank goodness for my heated seats.

Obviously, we are no where near the predicament you guys up north are in. I heard 27" of snow in Central Park - is that correct? Parts of Maryland and Virginia had over 3 feet of snow. What a storm. That same cold front hit us as well, but only our temperatures dropped.

I even had the heat on in my Condo last night and this morning. It's colder than what I would have expected due to the 15-25 mph winds howling out of the NNW. These condo apartments are not "sealed" as well as those up north.

Good luck all - and stay well - don't overdo in this weather.

oldfarmer50

"It was 43 out"

It was 9 when we went out this morning but sunny and NO SNOW! It feels good to say that.

Taking my wife out to dinner today to celebrate our 40th. Still don't know what she sees in me.

suydam

9 for us as well. Do us northerners a favor and keep your Florida temps to yourself! We already envy you. And we will find out soon enough because many of us will be heading that way soon if we haven't already.

abacomike

oldfarmer50 said:

"It was 43 out" It was 9 when we went out this morning but sunny and NO SNOW! It feels good to say that. Taking my wife out to dinner today to celebrate our 40th. Still don't know what she sees in me.

Happy Birthday to you both - it's great to celebrate birthdays together, isn't it!!! 

All kidding aside (AKA), happy anniversary!

stever

Woke up two hours ago and it was 45°, 55° now. Our Cruze driving friend really wants a Malibu but is in a bit of sticker shock. I told her she didn't have to load it up $36,000 dollars worth.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

"It was 43 out"

It was 9 when we went out this morning but sunny and NO SNOW! It feels good to say that.

Taking my wife out to dinner today to celebrate our 40th. Still don't know what she sees in me.

Congratulations on your 40th.

Well, you know she wasn't after you for your car!

oldfarmer50

stever said:

Woke up two hours ago and it was 45°, 55° now. Our Cruze driving friend really wants a Malibu but is in a bit of sticker shock. I told her she didn't have to load it up $36,000 dollars worth.

This is looking good to me:





At least in my dreams.

400 horses out of a 3.0L (with the help of twin turbos) is pretty impressive. Do you think Lincoln is setting it's sights on MB? I wonder why they didn't use the Coyote engine tuned for the Continental like they did with the old 4.6L that Ford and Lincoln shared.

I'm figuring a $70k price tag.