So, I have the sylvania silver star's and they aren't that bright (Brighter then stock bulbs, but way less then HID). They're nice and white though. but I was wondering what the difference was between the halogens and the xenon bulbs. is it the same type of bulb with different gases?, or is it a completly different bulb that won't work with the halogen housings. Basicly, can I get xenon bulbs with the stock 9006/9005 connection in my 2000 TLC?
I purchased a 2004 LC in November and for the past 4 months, I have noted that the vehicle vibrates when attempting to downshift from 5th to 4th or 4th to 3rd while going up a hill. It does not downshift unless I step on the gas. I took it back to the dealer (again) and requested the best technician to ride with the service writer. The tech found out that the transmission needed to be changed. The LC only has 4300 miles on it and started this problem at 2800. Has anyone had this problem and will it occur again.
i have a 2001 4runner sr5 and today when i started up the trac off, vsc, and check engine lights came on all at the same time. yesterday the lights were off like normal and i am pretty concerned. has anyone had this problem before, and if you have what should i do?
Ignore the VSC and Trac because they come on automatically with any engine diagnostic indication.
Did you happen to open the gas cap without refueling or didn't refuel enough that the ECU could tell?
The EPA now requires that the fuel tank/system be operated under a slight vacuum. Loss of tank vacuum without a detectable rise in fuel level is seen as a vacuum leak.
Sure you can. Search the web with key words like "Xenon 9006" or "Xenon 9005" you will find a bunch of them out there (direct replacement). In fact, not only for the 9005 and 9006, but also for the 9004 and 9007 models... Be Careful though, not all brands of Xenon bulbs are DOT approved, so shop with care. FYI, I got mine from PIAA for my 2000 TLC and they light-up the night wonderfully. By the way, I had a set of Sylvania Silver Stars for my wife's car not long ago, and they are just not very impressive.... I wish they just burn out soon so I have an excuse to get the Xenon type.
From my 2000 TLC Repair Manual, yes, there are just "4" screws (2 on top and the other 2 on the bottom) to remove before prying the "Combination Meter" (as the manual calls it) out of the dash... Good Luck!
i read that with the 2006 rav4 "the driver has the possibility to lock the torque distribution to the 55:45 ratio by the 4WD LOCK mode switch" on this site http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050913.005/page/4/lang/eng/toyota/1.html does it mean that it becomes sort of like a Subaru, i.e. all 4 wheels have constant power and open differentials on the front and rear axels allow you to go fast on paved roads (not like 4x4 systems which are designed for serious mud and speeds not higher than about 10 kph.) WHAT EXACTLY THIS LOCK SWITCH LOCKS??? central differential or something else??? thank very you in advance.
The other thing you should know is that these are not "real" xenon (HID) lights. They are incandescent bulbs filled with xenon gas. The xenon HID xenon lights have no filament; the light is created by an electrical arc. These kinds of lights (HID) also need a ballast to maintain the arc. They are not cheap like the bulbs.
Yap! Absolutely correct. Those like-to-be Xenon bulbs doesn't seem to last very long either. It give out nice bright color, but, just doesn't seem to last long enough for the money... Perhaps consider adding a set of driving lights (with them wireless switch from Hella) as an alternative.
On Ebay you can purchase an HID "kit" that is compatible with your OEM headlamp assembly, 9006, 9007, H4, etc. Some have a halogen bulb "strapped" to the low beam HID bulb. I don't recommend the latetr version you can always buy a cheap set of driving lights to use along with the HIDs for high beam pattern fill in.
I have a 2004 4Runner. I had a similar problem. I also had abs kicking in. The dealer was baffled. Turned out it was related to a cheap cell phone adapter...believe it or not. If you are using an adapter, pull it out and see if you still have the problem.
I think you'll have to try the seats for yourself. What works for you might not work for someone else, and vice versa.
I'm not sure what your concern is with the RX330 in regards to handling in snow. I'm sure an AWD RX330 will do fine in a few inches of snow. It will do even better with a 4 snow tires (something that I have on my 4Runner and you won't believe the difference it makes).
Driving in "snow" can be not much more challenging than driving on loose beach sand. It's when that snow gets packed down, and/or the surface thaws in the daytime and refreezes overnight that the real challenge exists.
I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to take any RWD with summer tires out if I was sure it was unpacked snow, but anything else and the rear chains would go on my AWD RX300 before leaving the garage.
Keep in mind that many AWD vehicles today are really FWD with some minor level of engine torque to the rear, the RX, HL, and Sienna included. These can be extremely hazardous to drive in wintertime roadbed conditions, especially so with ONLY front snow chains as is recommended (required) by the manufacturer.
There is some indication that Toyota, and maybe Lexus, are finally wising up to the hazards of FWD or front biased AWD. The new RAV4 4WD system is rear torque biased, the new 4runner now biases the engine torque to the rear when stearing, and both the new Lexus AWD IS & GS use the VSC's yaw sensor to determine when to dynamically go to rear torque biasing.
I'm hoping the RX350 has the RAV4 system when it's introduced next spring.
I don't go thru tremendous amounts of snow, but sometimes the roads are not plowed. I am concerned that with the AWD autos such GS 300 the lower height will be a disadvantage.
I believe that the GX is a better snow vehicle than the RX 330, but the ride is not as comfortable.
Yes, the rumor is that the new RX will be available in early 06. And yes again, the GX, being rear drive based, should handle a lot better than the RX330 on slippery surfaces.
I'm not sure that I will even again own a regular passenger car, the RX300, etc, has so much more utility. But yes, if I were buying a sedan in the GS class it would most definitely be the AWD GS.
You should probably read some of the winter tire info and tips at www.tirerack.com. Also read many threads in the snow/ice winter tires thread in aftermarket and accessories forum here at Edmunds. The RX330 is a perfect winter vehicle and also excellent write-ups for handling, comfort, reliability. You can take almost any vehicle and make it good for snow with the PROPER TIRES. My Corolla has almost 200k on it and is my daily driver. It gets 4 dedicated snows for winter (as does the Sequoia) The only issue I ever had with the Corolla was during the blizzards when there was a 2 feet plus of plowed snow at the entrance ramps and in parking lots (but still made it through). The car just doesn't have enough ground clearance for that. My old Honda Civic made it 4 years of winter driving in the Adirondacks up to Canada while in college. Number of times stuck=0. The first year I only had 2 snows on the front(dad's recommendation, tire shop advised 4) 2 weeks later normal driving on snow covered roads and the almost new rear "all seasons" decided not hold and I spun around but saved it with no damage. Next day had the 4 matching snows and no more problems. Regular all seasons do not remain as flexible and do not have the siping to give good grip in cold/snow/ice. Consider that most of Europe is driving cars even in winter. Saab and Volvo provide snows for cars purchased in winter months there. Audi with quattro AWD and Subaru are very popular everywhere. Mileage, handling, reliability are factors that need to be considered especially at 30k per year. Sequoia and LC are great vehicles if you need the space and towing ability but are PIGS on gas. RX will at least get you decent mileage Subaru Forester or Outback will be even better. Just get good tires for the winter season. My sister used to drive buy many stuck pickups and SUV's in her 5.0L Mustang GT with 4 studded snows and laughed while they had the confused look on their faces as to how she was driving up hills with no problem.
Chains as wwest suggests are fine for really bad snow/ice but limit you to about 25 mph. Sorry going to work or driving most places by me will never happen at that speed.
Remember no matter what you get depends on the amount of traction provided by the tires. Traction Control, ABS, ESC, AWD, FWD, 4WD all depend on a 4 contact patches about the size of a piece of paper to control you at all speeds and conditions. Performance all season tires turn like hard plastic in the cold (think childs plastic sled!)
Lastly if you have a bad back, SERIOUSLY consider getting a RECARO seat installed for you in ANY vehicle. Buy it once and you can move it to future vehicles. The seats are the most comfortable and supportive you'll ever try. Problem with "factory" seats in most cars is they need to fit the 5'2" 100lb person as well as the 6'4" 300lb one. My imitation Recaros have over 350k on them and have been in 4 vehicles. I would rather drive my Corolla on a long trip than the Sequoia just because of the back support they provide. Once I get more $$ I will get at least 1 for the Sequoia also. Notice as you drive that you often need to adjust to get your back, back against the rear of the seat because your butt keeps sliding forward. the bottom cushions are too flat to keep you in proper driving position and many seat backs give no lumbar support.
Summer tires provide more traction on a hard surface than winter tires. Summer tires simply have more tread surface area for full contact with the roadbed. Winter tires will always have more traction when circumstances are such that the tire can/will "sink in" to the sand or snow covered surface.
In your area how long does it take for freshly fallen snow to get packed down and become a "hard" surface.
And think about this: You have just crested a hill and the downslope is so slippery there are cars helter-skelter, scattered left and right in the borrow pits ahead. It's too late to stop and you're in a FWD or front torque biased AWD, what do you do?
According to AAA, you quickly shift the transaxle into neutral to totally eliminate whatever level of engine braking that might otherwise result in braking only, or primarily, at the front.
If you have ABS then you can likely now use braking to maintain control during your harrowing downhill "slide". But I can tell you from personal experience that doesn't work in an AWD RX300 on a truly slippery downslope absent rear snow chains and a high curb to keep you from going over the edge.
To be completely fair I should have had snow chains front and rear that day regardless of drive type. But then again having snow chains only on the front as directed/required by Lexus would have been pure disaster.
A friend of mine has a Highlander -- basically the same drivetrain as your RX300. His is just fine in the snow. He does usually run snow tires, but never chains.
So I can't understand why you say these cars are extremely hazardous in the snow.
I've driven FWD cars in snow for many years ('87 Integra and then 2000 GTI). They were just fine in snow as well. With snow tires, the GTI would go just about anywhere (within the limitations of its ground clearance).
wwest, sorry but I have to disagree. FWD or RWD doesn't mean a hill of beans when heading down a steep hill in the snow. You're in trouble either way if you exceed the grip of your tires.
The problem you experienced with your RX300 wouldn't have been any different in an LX470 given the same tires. The ABS can't work miracles -- it can't overcome the coefficient of friction.
A couple years ago Boston had an unexpected, rush-hour snow squall that quickly froze to the road, resulting in a very, very slick surface. I was on a side street that had a 70 degree bend to the right and a very, very slight downhill grade. I was going about 20 mph in my 2003 4WD 4Runner. As I turned the corner, the back end broke away, despite all the efforts of the spin control. I counter steered, and ended up sliding sideways headed towards a tree. Fortunately, I stopped just a couple feet short.
The full-time 4wd system on my 4Runner (effectively the same system that is on the Land Cruiser, GX470 and LX470) didn't help. Nor did it hurt.
The problem was that I exceeded the coefficient of friction between the road and my all-season tires.
The RX330 and Highlander do just fine in snow within the limitations of their tires. Add snow tires and they do even better.
Unless you have rockets pointing forward, you are not going to stop in a panic on ice no matter what the drive configuration of your vehicle. General snow and ice driving will be best in a true 4X4, followed by a all wheel drive, then front wheel drive and finally rear wheel drive. I spent 20 years in ND, so I do have some knowledge of snow and ice. The key to winter driving is decent all season tires and common sense. I never used chains, studs, 4X4 or snow tires. Just drove within the limits of the vehicle without problems. I do have 3 4X4s (one AWD) now, but it is for starting traction, not stopping.
Just as it states in your owners manual, the laws of physics cannot be overcome....
But until you get to the point where nothing will help, the point of no return, a few things are important.
Years ago, long before ABS, FWD, and anything but REAL 4X4's, in MT in the wintertime I often found myself using the parking brake to apply slight braking to the rear wheels to slow the vehicle while "reserving" the front traction patch for stearing, directional control.
It was also common practice to shift an automatic tranny into neutral to prevent the rear wheels from being driven while stopped.
Today's ABS is WONDERFUL, in that it will ALWAYS keep those front wheels rolling even under severe braking if the surface area is slippery enough. But what, today, is being done about, to alleviate, engine compression braking on FWD, or front torque biased AWD?
Before Cadillac made the move to RWD only they were using an over-running clutch in the transaxle to prevent engine braking on there high torque FWD models.
Both the new Lexus IS and GS AWD models use the VSC's yaw sensor to detect circumstances wherein engine torque is automatically biased to the rear, away from the front. The new 4runner says that engine torque is automatically removed from the front during stearing.
And you may note that the new 2006 AWD/4WD RAV4, the SUV at the bottom of the "food" chain, is now rear torque biased.
There is an entire thread here at Edmunds, a really LONG thread, dedicated to engine hesitation. My guess is that the whole episode there is to try and eliminate wintertime accidents due to inadvertent engine braking on the front wheels of FWD and/or front biased AWD.
Think about it, absent a clutch to disengage the driveline, would you intentionally downshift a FWD or front biased AWD with the throttle fully closed if you knew the roadbed to be slippery?
The AAA is now campaigning to have drivers quickly, be quick to shift their automatics into neutral to prevent loss of control on slippery surfaces.
I have often said that Lexus, absent knowing the level of fogging affecting the windshield at the instant I activate the defrost/defog/demist functionality, should take the absolute UTMOST measures, MAX blower, MAX heating of the airflow, and yes, use the A/C since it may (depending on climatic conditions) be of help. And then leave it to me to moderate the system effects once I have my forward vision cleared. That's the way most european climate control designs work, as did American ones until Denso US arrived on the scene.
So maybe, absent knowing the actual roadbed conditions, is always taking the absolute UTMOST measures to assure there is no loss of control due to engine braking on the front during closed throttle "coastdown" operations.
The recommendation to shift an auto transmission to neutral when slipping is nothing new. That recommendation has been around since the '70s, when I learned to drive.
As for engaging the parking brake on a RWD car in slippery conditions, I've found cause to do so (except, of course, when I was doing donuts in a snow-covered parking lot). If you are headed downhill and engage the parking brake, you're likely to wind up with the rear trying to pass the front. No thank you.
I've driven FWD automatics in the snow without any problem. I believe that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
As for the defrost setting, the automatic climate control in my 2003 4Runner does exactly that. When you select defrost, it starts max blower, max heat, and A/C. I'd be very surprised if current Lexus models don't do the same.
Yes, it will do exactly that, but not after the cabin atmosphere has acclimated to your temperature setpoint. Once the cabin's air temperature has reached or rises to near the temperature setpoint the defrost/defog/demist system operates entirely differently.
Apparently you're not aware of how ABS works, or doesn't...
It doesn't work, most are automatically disabled, if the system has a locked center differential. In most cases of anti-lock braking on a slippery roadbed the rear wheels will over-run, rotate faster than, the fronts.
Prior to ABS the e-brake allowed me to remove braking altogether from the front, the exact function of today's ABS, while having moderate, even "pulsing" braking at the rear. E-brakes typically are not very powerful, so it was generally easy to brake the rear wheels just lightly enough to maintain a slow speed, not accelerate downhill.
Summer tires provide more traction on a hard surface than winter tires. Summer tires simply have more tread surface area for full contact with the roadbed. Winter tires will always have more traction when circumstances are such that the tire can/will "sink in" to the sand or snow covered surface.
WWEST, No offense but I think you might want to go TIRERACK yourself and update/refresh some of your knowledge. The "older" style snow/winter tires were very hard with large open spaces and aggressive patterns. The "newer" styles have special compounds and or siping. My Nokian Q rated studless ice tires grip incredibly on a hard dry surface. The problem is that the tread is so flexible and engineered to remain flexible in cold they wear away very fast in hot conditions. If you look at the tread patterns on the Blizzaks, X-ICE, Nokians, etc. Many of them have more tread surface area than their all season counter parts. Heck you might even be real daring and actually TRY 4 of them on your RX300.
My dad after years of having 2 snows "old, hard rubber style" went with all seasons and was happy most of the time until he got stuck in front of house numerous times. He went back to 2 tires (still old style now with studs) on his RWD car and sure he enough he was able to make it up the hill. The next day coming down he started sliding, put it in neutral, tried light parking brake to help and slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop. Sound like a familiar viewpoint standpoint? He then asked me for help. He now runs 4 Kumho snows on his RWD, loves the ride and quiet traction they provide all winter long and said he was stupid for not listening with an open mind earlier. He also prefers to drive my Mom's Camry (yup FWD :surprise: ) with 4 nokian snows in all conditions due the better traction and driveability over his RWD. All of his are mounted on rims and run only in winter for reasons stated above.
C'mon be daring and frivolous and try out that front biased AWD vehicle once you put some proper shoes on it. Maybe your one of those I'll use my sneakers and http://yaktrax.com/ if I have to go shovel kinda people?
Here's the deal, if you can find, recommend, a "winter" tire that has more tread surface area, contact patch, and will fit my RX300, than my summer bridgestones then I will "Hop to" immediately.
And that old song of the summer tire's rubber not remaining "live" in COLD weather should be retired to the archive for urban legends.
"....slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop."
I have had the same thing happen with just two snow chains. You will NEVER be able to convince me that ANY tire, absent studs or chains, will outperform your dad's rear tires with studs.
And I'm willing to bet real money that it was his ABS that resulted in the elongated braking distance. No studs on the front (where most braking occurs) would result in virtually no braking there, studs on the rear would help if the ABS didn't want to prevent a spin and therefore also kept the rears rolling.
And finally....
Why should I buy 4 specialty tires, and likely wheels, when I am perfectly happy mounting snow chains, NO hesitation, when the need arises.
And the snow chains allow me to drive right around those sillies with 4WD and "true" winter tires and get to the slopes to carve fresh powder ahead of them.
Here's the deal, if you can find, recommend, a "winter" tire that has more tread surface area, contact patch, and will fit my RX300, than my summer bridgestones then I will "Hop to" immediately.
And that old song of the summer tire's rubber not remaining "live" in COLD weather should be retired to the archive for urban legends.
Again no offense but I think YOUR urban legend status is seriously showing. Go to Tirerack, Michelin, Bridgestone, ANY tire manufacturer of your choice and read on what they say. Buy the November '05 Consumer Reports and read the Winter tire review. from CR "Winter tires have treads with more biting edges for better grip on snow and ice, while their softer compound remains flexible even in extremely low temperatures" from Tirerack "We all know that tires are a compromise. One tire can't be the fastest on the track, most controllable in the snow, and longest wearing. The Ultra High Performance tire that grips the track with tread temperatures of 200° is incompetent as its tread compound becomes like "hard plastic" at below 32°. Today's 80,000-mile tires require tread designs and compounds that maximize long, even wear... not winter traction. And while many of today's all-season tires (Original Equipment, touring and performance) address some of these issues, they still emphasize longer wear, a quieter ride or greater performance...not winter traction.
Only winter tires are designed to excel in the colder temperatures, slush, snow and ice that many parts of the country experience for three or more months a year." PLEASE go here and read, http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=120
"....slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop."
I have had the same thing happen with just two snow chains. You will NEVER be able to convince me that ANY tire, absent studs or chains, will outperform your dad's rear tires with studs.
You summed it up perfectly yourself, NOBODY on ANY forum will EVER get you to change your mind. No matter what facts are presented from all sources. Heck, you love Edmunds, go to the aftermarket forum and send Connor from Tirerack all your questions and tell him your KNOWN facts as oppossed to somebody who does tire testing so he can recommend the best for people. I'm sure his driving on an ice skating rink and winter test track to test tires would lead to some conclusions other than yours.
And I'm willing to bet real money that it was his ABS that resulted in the elongated braking distance. No studs on the front (where most braking occurs) would result in virtually no braking there, studs on the rear would help if the ABS didn't want to prevent a spin and therefore also kept the rears rolling.
Again, read what you are sending and trying to teach others. You'd be losing a lot of money to many people and car/tire manufacturers. The fact of LACK of TRACTION on the fronts it what caused the slide. ABS, Traction Control, ESC all rely on the actual grip provided by the tires. No grip from hard (due to temp), very little siping (all season tire)gave the primary braking area NOTHING to work with.
And finally....
Why should I buy 4 specialty tires, and likely wheels, when I am perfectly happy mounting snow chains, NO hesitation, when the need arises.
And the snow chains allow me to drive right around those sillies with 4WD and "true" winter tires and get to the slopes to carve fresh powder ahead of them.
For the sake of others reading your misleading and incorrect posts. Maybe for those occasions that somebodies wife might be driving with the kids home from school and all of a sudden it starts to snow. She has chains in the vehicle but isn't quite sure how to put them on while sitting on the side of the highway hoping not to get killed by a passing driver. You can do what keeps you happy but at least open the mind to new info and technology. I had to chime in after just getting annoyed at reading MANY of your past posts over the years. All the driving/racing schools, rally drivers, and who knows in the rest of the world I'm sure have varying opinions on which bias is better for what conditions. Funny though that all the world rally teams are running AWD vehicles based on their FWD counterparts.
Enjoy your life and opinions and posts. From my perspective much of your info is like my parents busted grandfather clock. Looks nice, used to be great and reliable, now it's right twice a day for a split second. But they still haven't gotten rid of it due to sentimental value.
go to the aftermarket forum and send Connor from Tirerack all your questions and tell him your KNOWN facts as oppossed to somebody who does tire testing so he can recommend the best for people.
Please don't! This is the busy season for tire dealers and they are all swamped, including Connor.
in business to manufacture and/or sell winter tires and extra wheels even test summer tires as a possibility for wintertime use??
"....winter tires have more biting edges...."
Yes, and that's exactly why they have less Contact patch tread "surface" area. And as I have already said, if there is no loose, unpacked roadbed surface, just packed snow or ice, I take my summer tires every time.
Yes, all the world rally teams perfer FWD or front biased AWD vehicles, and ALL Nascar drivers perfer RWD, even to the point of modifying OEM FWD vehicles into RWD.
But I do my best to stay well away from specialty examples like that and stick to everyday common examples.
in business to manufacture and/or sell winter tires and extra wheels even test summer tires as a possibility for wintertime use??
"....winter tires have more biting edges...."
That quote is from Consumer reports so they are not in any selling business, just testing. Testing results and facts often provide useful information to those that refuse to see there might some advances in technology that could help save their lives. Old methods can often be improved on. Think lap belts vs. shoulder belts, Air bags?
Yes, and that's exactly why they have less Contact patch tread "surface" area. And as I have already said, if there is no loose, unpacked roadbed surface, just packed snow or ice, I take my summer tires every time.
First see above on WHY would testing places test summer tires for winter use! Some people have this opinion I take my summer tires every time. Have you heard of a SIPE? Do you know that there are tire shops that will take your summer tires and actually cut little slits into them (sipes) to provide more edges and at the end they actually have the same amount of tread surface area. Read this http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tireSiping.dos
Yes, all the world rally teams perfer FWD or front biased AWD vehicles, and ALL Nascar drivers perfer RWD, even to the point of modifying OEM FWD vehicles into RWD.
We're discussing traction in snow/ice (even rain) Have you ever seen a Nascar rain tire? I haven't. I've seen MANY Nascar races postponed/cancelled due to rain/drizzle and they only run one direction at high rate of speed. Rally runs in ALL conditions, Rain, Snow, Mud, Night with all the above, Hi speed, low speed, harpins which I think applies to more of the conditions the rest of the world might encounter. You claim that the best solution is RWD for all weather conditions all the time with summer tires. Just giving you some other views.
all remove material from the contact patch area. If there is surface material, mud, dirt, sand, snow, etc, for those "edges" to grip then all well and good. Absent a "roughened" surface I will stick to the most rubber material within the area of the contact patch that I can get.
Try any of your "winter" tires on an ice rink vs a good summer tire and see who has the best control, overall.
In the wintertime freshly fallen snow is transitory, it will either melt away or be packed and freeze into a hard surface.
Besides which unless you live in an area like some in MT or AK most of the time you would be better off with summer tires anyway.
"You claim the best solution is RWD for all weather conditions all the time with summer tires."
No, I claim that for the brief periods and conditions most of us need higher traction than summer tires will provide snow chains are a much better solution overall.
Now if some one would just invent a summer tire that when over-inflated extended hard rubber studs through the tread we could both be happy. And I think that the fact that the industry is now in transition back to RWD, or rear torque biased AWD, except on the low end of the automotive marketplace speaks volumes.
I'm very, very aware of how ABS works. No need to be condescending. We can disagree without being disagreable.
As for the rear wheels rotating faster than the fronts while braking on slippery surfaces, that all depends upon which wheel locks up first.
Engaging the e-brake on a slippery surface, particularly while going downhill, with the rear end unloaded (weight transfer to the front when going downhill), is an EXCELLENT way to inadvertently lock the rear brakes. Then you are likely to end up with the rear end trying to come around, since rolling friction being greater than sliding friction.
That is not a technique that I would recommend to anyone and certainly not a technique that I've ever seen recommended by any professional driving organization.
Better off with summer tires in the snow? Nope, no way. Been there, done that. I've had the chance to drive my 4Runner in the snow with all seasons and with snow tires. I've had the chance to drive my (now gone) 2000 GTI in the snow with summer tires and snow tires.
Guess which ones had the best cornering and braking in the snow? Snow tires hands down.
A while back Car & Driver did a test comparing FWD, RWD, and AWD with all season and snow tires. Guess what? Putting snow tires on any of them greatly improved traction and braking distance.
Go to the Tire Rack's web site. They've done side by side tests. Real live data.
As for the extra cost, it's not that expensive. When you have your snow tires on, you're not wearing your all season/summer tires so your all season/summer tires last longer (in terms of years, not miles, of course).
Will studded snow tires give you better traction than regular snow tires? Sure, but they're noisy and many states restrict studded tires. Will chains give good traction? Sure, but they're noisy, they're a pain to put on and take off, and you can't go very fast with them on.
Do I prefer a rear-biased car over a front-biased car? Sure, but I grew up with a RWD car and am very comfortable counter-steering. Does that mean that front-biased cars are unsafe in the snow? Nope. I've spent many years driving FWD in snow, with autos and manuals. They do just fine (better uphill than most RWD cars, as a matter of fact).
The point I've been trying very hard to get across is that for any surface your tire can "sink" into even slightly, winter tires will be ecellent.
But anytime what you're facing is a slippery hard surface, packed snow or ice, those "edges" in winter treads will always be determental to good traction.
The best example of patch size being worthless is comparing a dually to a single rear wheel truck. The single will get as good or better traction every time even though it has about half the contact patch. It is the same with chains. If you had chain strips all the way around, they would be less effective compared to having them every 6 inches or so. That way more presure is on a smaller area allowing better traction. Is it possible that siped tires with a little less contact patch may be more effective? Of course it is. It doesn't matter if you have studs, chains, snow tires or 4 wheel drive, if you don't drive responsibly, you will end up upside down in the ditch. I run Michelin all weather tires on my AWD Astro and I ran Bridgestone Dueller AT all season tires on my Tundra with no problems at all in snow, sand or ice, and I never had to stop to change tires, add chains or have studs off by 15 April.
I can speak only about Bridgestone Blizzak DMZ3. Put them on my 4Runner and the truck was 100 times better starting, and especially stopping on packed snow and ice. Also put them on my RWD Astro van and it becomes unstoppable on snow and ice. It stops incredible on ice. Wwest I did not believe that tires could make that much difference, but they do. My 4Runner was always great starting on snow or ice, but it slid a lot trying to stop. With the blizzaks it stops on a dime. The blizzaks are made especially for ice. They have also out performed studded tires in some conditions. I use them on all of my vehicles now. They make winter driving a pleasure.
Try any of your "winter" tires on an ice rink vs a good summer tire and see who has the best control, overall.
You may want to reconsider that one! Under "ideal" conditions, the force of friction does not depend on the surface area and being on cold hard ice is about as close to the ideal as you can get.
Wwest, That mind is closed up tighter than Fort Knox. As you said, nobody will ever convince you otherwise. You asked for winter tires that give the same contact patch as your summer that fit you vehicle and you'd "hop to it" but then continue that your summer ones are better in all conditions.
Let me ask a couple simple questions.
IF front biased, AWD or just plain FWD are such a safety hazard as you claim in all of your "knowledgeable" posts, WHY, WHY, WHY would subject yourself to such a life threatening condition and actually BUY and DRIVE daily an AWD Lexus RX300? You comment that you would actually buy an '06 RX350 and weld shut the transfer case and disconnect driveshafts (read post 1813) and that AWD is useless. Unless it's just that Evil Knievel, sky dive with no reserve chute kinda quality you have, why wouldn't you just buy a 2WD vehicle? You pick it, need an SUV for size or other, a 4Runner or Sequoia from any southern dealer will be RWD ONLY unless you order with other drive options. Same deal for Ford, Chevy and others I'm sure. Maybe you long for front drum brakes, lapbelts, unlaminated non safety glass, and Bias ply tires again?
MANY people when I look back here at Edmunds just seem to get into confrontational posts with you ALL the time. Did you ever consider why? Maybe it's just because no matter what facts are presented it goes nowhere except into confusing, misleading posts. Why is it there are many posts that always seem to end "wwest we will just have to agree to disagree"? It's just mind boggling to me that you continue to just really try to twist people into your reality and not provide info to help them decide based on multiple fact sources. I'll probably add more in the future but as I often did, I seem to skip over many of your posts, shaking my head every time I read one. Let me guess, aluminum frame single pane "storm" windows covering single pane double hung windows probably provide better insulating quality over double or triple pane casement windows in your the world is flat don't fall over the edge reality also?
Other people have you given their personal experience in regards to the difference in available traction as I have. Should you decide to try some in the future, I believe it will be a revealing experience for you. If your favorite summer tires ever wear out, you might want to try the Nokian WR http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/tires_popup.cfm?id=17&size=225/70R16 as a replacement. This tire is listed as “all weather” by the manufacturer. It is one step up from the “all season” and listed with the mountain/snowflake severe service emblem. It also happens to have a 50k mileage warranty, is very quiet, rides well, and provides EXCELLENT grip in wet and dry. Many friends and family run them year round as they also don’t want to switch out with other “dedicated” rims/tires. That said they are also on their second or third sets and won’t buy others because of their experience in how much better they grip in winter and rain as compared to the previous summer tires they had. My in-laws actually took their 2003 RX300 on day one and drove to the tire shop replacing their Bridgestone’s with the WR’s due to their previous experience.
Our home has double pane e-glass and we are in the process of drilling a well and converting from natural gas to geothermal heat and A/C.
"....summer tires..." "...are better in all conditions..."
If I have said that then I certainly didn't mean too, otherwise why do I currently have a set of snow chains in the RX??
The reason I own a front biased AWD is simple, life is full of compromises. In 2001 the AWD RX300 represented, for me, the best all around SUV of that size and class. Upon purchase it immediately got 1.5" wheel spacers, 17X8 wheels and the appropreate +1 tires. The spacers not only allow enough suspension clearance at the rear for the wider wheel/tire combination but also allow me to safely use snow chains at the rear first and then also at the front when necessary. The latter having not happened to date.
And I think you might be missing my point, entirely. Yes, there are certain conditions wherein winter tires provide more, excellent, traction as compared to my summer tires. And for those that want to go to the expense and constant road noise that's fine.
But in my circumstance, or opinion, here in my area of the country most of the time, the clear majority of the time, summer tires provide more than enough traction. So I chose not to put a "band aid" over a non-existant wound.
It irritates me mightily that our roadbeds around here are literally be destroyed by all the studded tires running around on pavement 100% of the time when they are really only needed less than .01% of the time and some winters not at all.
But what this "argument" really comes down to is this. Some of you convert to winter tires during the winter months and that's just fine with me. IMMHO there will be times, maybe even most of the time, when you could get better traction with summer tires, but you chose to run the winter tires in the event they may be, are, needed.
For myself I treat those "events" as rare exceptions and respond to them as such. If I still lived in north central MT I'm sure I would be more in your corner.
Sequoiasoon, in regards to the tire "SIPE", here is my as well as a couple of my friend's experiences (observations) about it. Sipping tires, as most things in life, has its share of PROs and CONs. I need not tell you about the good things it will offer as it is described in the URL. Our (my friend and I) experiences told us to never sipe our tires again if we like our tires to last. After a year or so of regular (combined city and highway) driving, we noticed that our siped tires have small chunks of rubbers missing, chipped off. After some research and phone calls to tire companies, we discovered the chunks were chipped off from having small pebbles/rocks stuck in between the gaps where the tires were "SIPPED". Because of the gap is tight, any small rocks gets in will pretty much stuck in the gap, then as each tire rotates, the rock starts to wedge its way around in the gap until a chuck of the rubber breaks off... If you have a softer tire and drive them in the summer, this may not be an issue as the rubber remains soft and flexible; however, if your tire is with a harder compound and/or drive it in the winter, your tire may be loosing more rubber from tare than ware.
rsht, Correct everything has pros and cons. I myself have never had a tire siped and don't plan to. The tires I buy have them from the manufacturer and I'm not looking to alter the factory design. I had given that as an example so wwest would have info too read. The actual siping process takes no rubber away so does not change the contact patch or tread surface area as he had suggested. The availability of the siping provides those that do not want to get other tires, an inexpensive option to increase the biting edges that have an opportunity to gain more traction in less then ideal conditions (snow/ice/rain). Siping a harder tire (or a tire that gets hard in cold conditions) could definitely cause the problems you describe.
My Nokian WR has a LOT of zigzag siping from factory and has seen some VERY hard miles (gravel and LARGE rock roads, mud, barely paved, high speeds, corners at limit, etc.) so far over about 25k I have not lost any chunks of rubber anywhere. My Nokian Q snows have zigzag sipes on every block of rubber that you can almost fan the block. They have some harder miles in those same conditions and also have not lost any chunks I also only run them from mid November to early April.
Comments
Did you happen to open the gas cap without refueling or didn't refuel enough that the ECU could tell?
The EPA now requires that the fuel tank/system be operated under a slight vacuum. Loss of tank vacuum without a detectable rise in fuel level is seen as a vacuum leak.
Now, who would have thought of that...?
Regards,
Tom
Was thinking about Land Cruiser. Is this ride more comfortable than Sequoia. Have a bad back so need something with comfortable seats.
Also considering RX 330, but am concerned with handling in snow
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I'm not sure what your concern is with the RX330 in regards to handling in snow. I'm sure an AWD RX330 will do fine in a few inches of snow. It will do even better with a 4 snow tires (something that I have on my 4Runner and you won't believe the difference it makes).
How much snow do you need to go through?
I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to take any RWD with summer tires out if I was sure it was unpacked snow, but anything else and the rear chains would go on my AWD RX300 before leaving the garage.
Keep in mind that many AWD vehicles today are really FWD with some minor level of engine torque to the rear, the RX, HL, and Sienna included. These can be extremely hazardous to drive in wintertime roadbed conditions, especially so with ONLY front snow chains as is recommended (required) by the manufacturer.
There is some indication that Toyota, and maybe Lexus, are finally wising up to the hazards of FWD or front biased AWD. The new RAV4 4WD system is rear torque biased, the new 4runner now biases the engine torque to the rear when stearing, and both the new Lexus AWD IS & GS use the VSC's yaw sensor to determine when to dynamically go to rear torque biasing.
I'm hoping the RX350 has the RAV4 system when it's introduced next spring.
What are your thoughts of the GS 300 vs. the RX 330. I have read that the GS 330 has the type of AWD which is close to the Sequoia.
Thanks for your assistance
I am concerned that with the AWD autos such GS 300 the lower height will be a disadvantage.
I believe that the GX is a better snow vehicle than the RX 330, but the ride is not as comfortable.
The Sequioa does handle very well in the snow.
I'm not sure that I will even again own a regular passenger car, the RX300, etc, has so much more utility. But yes, if I were buying a sedan in the GS class it would most definitely be the AWD GS.
The new RX, will that be as good in the snow as the GX 470? I am still confused with the different types of AWD/$WD
Do you think the GX 470 will handle much better than the AWD GS or is it just the fact that it is higher and heavier.
I'm wondering if the car ride would be worth the small amount of snow handling I would gain by getting an SUV.
Chains as wwest suggests are fine for really bad snow/ice but limit you to about 25 mph. Sorry going to work or driving most places by me will never happen at that speed.
Remember no matter what you get depends on the amount of traction provided by the tires. Traction Control, ABS, ESC, AWD, FWD, 4WD all depend on a 4 contact patches about the size of a piece of paper to control you at all speeds and conditions. Performance all season tires turn like hard plastic in the cold (think childs plastic sled!)
Lastly if you have a bad back, SERIOUSLY consider getting a RECARO seat installed for you in ANY vehicle. Buy it once and you can move it to future vehicles. The seats are the most comfortable and supportive you'll ever try. Problem with "factory" seats in most cars is they need to fit the 5'2" 100lb person as well as the 6'4" 300lb one. My imitation Recaros have over 350k on them and have been in 4 vehicles. I would rather drive my Corolla on a long trip than the Sequoia just because of the back support they provide. Once I get more $$ I will get at least 1 for the Sequoia also. Notice as you drive that you often need to adjust to get your back, back against the rear of the seat because your butt keeps sliding forward. the bottom cushions are too flat to keep you in proper driving position and many seat backs give no lumbar support.
Summer tires provide more traction on a hard surface than winter tires. Summer tires simply have more tread surface area for full contact with the roadbed. Winter tires will always have more traction when circumstances are such that the tire can/will "sink in" to the sand or snow covered surface.
In your area how long does it take for freshly fallen snow to get packed down and become a "hard" surface.
And think about this: You have just crested a hill and the downslope is so slippery there are cars helter-skelter, scattered left and right in the borrow pits ahead. It's too late to stop and you're in a FWD or front torque biased AWD, what do you do?
According to AAA, you quickly shift the transaxle into neutral to totally eliminate whatever level of engine braking that might otherwise result in braking only, or primarily, at the front.
If you have ABS then you can likely now use braking to maintain control during your harrowing downhill "slide". But I can tell you from personal experience that doesn't work in an AWD RX300 on a truly slippery downslope absent rear snow chains and a high curb to keep you from going over the edge.
To be completely fair I should have had snow chains front and rear that day regardless of drive type. But then again having snow chains only on the front as directed/required by Lexus would have been pure disaster.
So I can't understand why you say these cars are extremely hazardous in the snow.
I've driven FWD cars in snow for many years ('87 Integra and then 2000 GTI). They were just fine in snow as well. With snow tires, the GTI would go just about anywhere (within the limitations of its ground clearance).
The problem you experienced with your RX300 wouldn't have been any different in an LX470 given the same tires. The ABS can't work miracles -- it can't overcome the coefficient of friction.
A couple years ago Boston had an unexpected, rush-hour snow squall that quickly froze to the road, resulting in a very, very slick surface. I was on a side street that had a 70 degree bend to the right and a very, very slight downhill grade. I was going about 20 mph in my 2003 4WD 4Runner. As I turned the corner, the back end broke away, despite all the efforts of the spin control. I counter steered, and ended up sliding sideways headed towards a tree. Fortunately, I stopped just a couple feet short.
The full-time 4wd system on my 4Runner (effectively the same system that is on the Land Cruiser, GX470 and LX470) didn't help. Nor did it hurt.
The problem was that I exceeded the coefficient of friction between the road and my all-season tires.
The RX330 and Highlander do just fine in snow within the limitations of their tires. Add snow tires and they do even better.
Just as it states in your owners manual, the laws of physics cannot be overcome....
But until you get to the point where nothing will help, the point of no return, a few things are important.
Years ago, long before ABS, FWD, and anything but REAL 4X4's, in MT in the wintertime I often found myself using the parking brake to apply slight braking to the rear wheels to slow the vehicle while "reserving" the front traction patch for stearing, directional control.
It was also common practice to shift an automatic tranny into neutral to prevent the rear wheels from being driven while stopped.
Today's ABS is WONDERFUL, in that it will ALWAYS keep those front wheels rolling even under severe braking if the surface area is slippery enough. But what, today, is being done about, to alleviate, engine compression braking on FWD, or front torque biased AWD?
Before Cadillac made the move to RWD only they were using an over-running clutch in the transaxle to prevent engine braking on there high torque FWD models.
Both the new Lexus IS and GS AWD models use the VSC's yaw sensor to detect circumstances wherein engine torque is automatically biased to the rear, away from the front. The new 4runner says that engine torque is automatically removed from the front during stearing.
And you may note that the new 2006 AWD/4WD RAV4, the SUV at the bottom of the "food" chain, is now rear torque biased.
There is an entire thread here at Edmunds, a really LONG thread, dedicated to engine hesitation. My guess is that the whole episode there is to try and eliminate wintertime accidents due to inadvertent engine braking on the front wheels of FWD and/or front biased AWD.
Think about it, absent a clutch to disengage the driveline, would you intentionally downshift a FWD or front biased AWD with the throttle fully closed if you knew the roadbed to be slippery?
The AAA is now campaigning to have drivers quickly, be quick to shift their automatics into neutral to prevent loss of control on slippery surfaces.
I have often said that Lexus, absent knowing the level of fogging affecting the windshield at the instant I activate the defrost/defog/demist functionality, should take the absolute UTMOST measures, MAX blower, MAX heating of the airflow, and yes, use the A/C since it may (depending on climatic conditions) be of help. And then leave it to me to moderate the system effects once I have my forward vision cleared. That's the way most european climate control designs work, as did American ones until Denso US arrived on the scene.
So maybe, absent knowing the actual roadbed conditions, is always taking the absolute UTMOST measures to assure there is no loss of control due to engine braking on the front during closed throttle "coastdown" operations.
Be careful out there.....winter is here.
We will have to agree to disagree.
The recommendation to shift an auto transmission to neutral when slipping is nothing new. That recommendation has been around since the '70s, when I learned to drive.
As for engaging the parking brake on a RWD car in slippery conditions, I've found cause to do so (except, of course, when I was doing donuts in a snow-covered parking lot). If you are headed downhill and engage the parking brake, you're likely to wind up with the rear trying to pass the front. No thank you.
I've driven FWD automatics in the snow without any problem. I believe that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
It doesn't work, most are automatically disabled, if the system has a locked center differential. In most cases of anti-lock braking on a slippery roadbed the rear wheels will over-run, rotate faster than, the fronts.
Prior to ABS the e-brake allowed me to remove braking altogether from the front, the exact function of today's ABS, while having moderate, even "pulsing" braking at the rear. E-brakes typically are not very powerful, so it was generally easy to brake the rear wheels just lightly enough to maintain a slow speed, not accelerate downhill.
tidester, host
Summer tires provide more traction on a hard surface than winter tires. Summer tires simply have more tread surface area for full contact with the roadbed. Winter tires will always have more traction when circumstances are such that the tire can/will "sink in" to the sand or snow covered surface.
WWEST,
No offense but I think you might want to go TIRERACK yourself and update/refresh some of your knowledge. The "older" style snow/winter tires were very hard with large open spaces and aggressive patterns. The "newer" styles have special compounds and or siping. My Nokian Q rated studless ice tires grip incredibly on a hard dry surface. The problem is that the tread is so flexible and engineered to remain flexible in cold they wear away very fast in hot conditions. If you look at the tread patterns on the Blizzaks, X-ICE, Nokians, etc. Many of them have more tread surface area than their all season counter parts. Heck you might even be real daring and actually TRY 4 of them on your RX300.
My dad after years of having 2 snows "old, hard rubber style" went with all seasons and was happy most of the time until he got stuck in front of house numerous times. He went back to 2 tires (still old style now with studs) on his RWD car and sure he enough he was able to make it up the hill. The next day coming down he started sliding, put it in neutral, tried light parking brake to help and slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop. Sound like a familiar viewpoint standpoint? He then asked me for help. He now runs 4 Kumho snows on his RWD, loves the ride and quiet traction they provide all winter long and said he was stupid for not listening with an open mind earlier. He also prefers to drive my Mom's Camry (yup FWD :surprise: ) with 4 nokian snows in all conditions due the better traction and driveability over his RWD. All of his are mounted on rims and run only in winter for reasons stated above.
C'mon be daring and frivolous and try out that front biased AWD vehicle once you put some proper shoes on it. Maybe your one of those I'll use my sneakers and http://yaktrax.com/ if I have to go shovel kinda people?
And that old song of the summer tire's rubber not remaining "live" in COLD weather should be retired to the archive for urban legends.
"....slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop."
I have had the same thing happen with just two snow chains. You will NEVER be able to convince me that ANY tire, absent studs or chains, will outperform your dad's rear tires with studs.
And I'm willing to bet real money that it was his ABS that resulted in the elongated braking distance. No studs on the front (where most braking occurs) would result in virtually no braking there, studs on the rear would help if the ABS didn't want to prevent a spin and therefore also kept the rears rolling.
And finally....
Why should I buy 4 specialty tires, and likely wheels, when I am perfectly happy mounting snow chains, NO hesitation, when the need arises.
And the snow chains allow me to drive right around those sillies with 4WD and "true" winter tires and get to the slopes to carve fresh powder ahead of them.
Overall contact patch should remain the same size since it is the same as OE. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp?startIndex=0&vehicleSearch=true&width=225/&rati- o=70&diameter=16&sortcode=45900&performance=W&minLoad=S&search=true From these I would recommend the Michelin's or Bridgestones. (the Michelin was Consumer Reports top pick also)
And that old song of the summer tire's rubber not remaining "live" in COLD weather should be retired to the archive for urban legends.
Again no offense but I think YOUR urban legend status is seriously showing. Go to Tirerack, Michelin, Bridgestone, ANY tire manufacturer of your choice and read on what they say. Buy the November '05 Consumer Reports and read the Winter tire review. from CR "Winter tires have treads with more biting edges for better grip on snow and ice, while their softer compound remains flexible even in extremely low temperatures" from Tirerack "We all know that tires are a compromise. One tire can't be the fastest on the track, most controllable in the snow, and longest wearing. The Ultra High Performance tire that grips the track with tread temperatures of 200° is incompetent as its tread compound becomes like "hard plastic" at below 32°. Today's 80,000-mile tires require tread designs and compounds that maximize long, even wear... not winter traction. And while many of today's all-season tires (Original Equipment, touring and performance) address some of these issues, they still emphasize longer wear, a quieter ride or greater performance...not winter traction.
Only winter tires are designed to excel in the colder temperatures, slush, snow and ice that many parts of the country experience for three or more months a year." PLEASE go here and read, http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=120
"....slid 50ft past the house before he was able to stop."
I have had the same thing happen with just two snow chains. You will NEVER be able to convince me that ANY tire, absent studs or chains, will outperform your dad's rear tires with studs.
You summed it up perfectly yourself, NOBODY on ANY forum will EVER get you to change your mind. No matter what facts are presented from all sources. Heck, you love Edmunds, go to the aftermarket forum and send Connor from Tirerack all your questions and tell him your KNOWN facts as oppossed to somebody who does tire testing so he can recommend the best for people. I'm sure his driving on an ice skating rink and winter test track to test tires would lead to some conclusions other than yours.
And I'm willing to bet real money that it was his ABS that resulted in the elongated braking distance. No studs on the front (where most braking occurs) would result in virtually no braking there, studs on the rear would help if the ABS didn't want to prevent a spin and therefore also kept the rears rolling.
Again, read what you are sending and trying to teach others. You'd be losing a lot of money to many people and car/tire manufacturers. The fact of LACK of TRACTION on the fronts it what caused the slide. ABS, Traction Control, ESC all rely on the actual grip provided by the tires. No grip from hard (due to temp), very little siping (all season tire)gave the primary braking area NOTHING to work with.
And finally....
Why should I buy 4 specialty tires, and likely wheels, when I am perfectly happy mounting snow chains, NO hesitation, when the need arises.
And the snow chains allow me to drive right around those sillies with 4WD and "true" winter tires and get to the slopes to carve fresh powder ahead of them.
For the sake of others reading your misleading and incorrect posts. Maybe for those occasions that somebodies wife might be driving with the kids home from school and all of a sudden it starts to snow. She has chains in the vehicle but isn't quite sure how to put them on while sitting on the side of the highway hoping not to get killed by a passing driver. You can do what keeps you happy but at least open the mind to new info and technology. I had to chime in after just getting annoyed at reading MANY of your past posts over the years. All the driving/racing schools, rally drivers, and who knows in the rest of the world I'm sure have varying opinions on which bias is better for what conditions. Funny though that all the world rally teams are running AWD vehicles based on their FWD counterparts.
Take a vacation and go to something like this http://www.winterdrive.com/, read here http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motor_sports/1302746.html
Enjoy your life and opinions and posts. From my perspective much of your info is like my parents busted grandfather clock. Looks nice, used to be great and reliable, now it's right twice a day for a split second. But they still haven't gotten rid of it due to sentimental value.
Please don't! This is the busy season for tire dealers and they are all swamped, including Connor.
Steve, Host
"....winter tires have more biting edges...."
Yes, and that's exactly why they have less Contact patch tread "surface" area. And as I have already said, if there is no loose, unpacked roadbed surface, just packed snow or ice, I take my summer tires every time.
Yes, all the world rally teams perfer FWD or front biased AWD vehicles, and ALL Nascar drivers perfer RWD, even to the point of modifying OEM FWD vehicles into RWD.
But I do my best to stay well away from specialty examples like that and stick to everyday common examples.
"....winter tires have more biting edges...."
That quote is from Consumer reports so they are not in any selling business, just testing. Testing results and facts often provide useful information to those that refuse to see there might some advances in technology that could help save their lives. Old methods can often be improved on. Think lap belts vs. shoulder belts, Air bags?
Yes, and that's exactly why they have less Contact patch tread "surface" area. And as I have already said, if there is no loose, unpacked roadbed surface, just packed snow or ice, I take my summer tires every time.
First see above on WHY would testing places test summer tires for winter use! Some people have this opinion I take my summer tires every time. Have you heard of a SIPE? Do you know that there are tire shops that will take your summer tires and actually cut little slits into them (sipes) to provide more edges and at the end they actually have the same amount of tread surface area. Read this http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tireSiping.dos
Yes, all the world rally teams perfer FWD or front biased AWD vehicles, and ALL Nascar drivers perfer RWD, even to the point of modifying OEM FWD vehicles into RWD.
We're discussing traction in snow/ice (even rain) Have you ever seen a Nascar rain tire? I haven't. I've seen MANY Nascar races postponed/cancelled due to rain/drizzle and they only run one direction at high rate of speed. Rally runs in ALL conditions, Rain, Snow, Mud, Night with all the above, Hi speed, low speed, harpins which I think applies to more of the conditions the rest of the world might encounter. You claim that the best solution is RWD for all weather conditions all the time with summer tires. Just giving you some other views.
Try any of your "winter" tires on an ice rink vs a good summer tire and see who has the best control, overall.
In the wintertime freshly fallen snow is transitory, it will either melt away or be packed and freeze into a hard surface.
Besides which unless you live in an area like some in MT or AK most of the time you would be better off with summer tires anyway.
"You claim the best solution is RWD for all weather conditions all the time with summer tires."
No, I claim that for the brief periods and conditions most of us need higher traction than summer tires will provide snow chains are a much better solution overall.
Now if some one would just invent a summer tire that when over-inflated extended hard rubber studs through the tread we could both be happy. And I think that the fact that the industry is now in transition back to RWD, or rear torque biased AWD, except on the low end of the automotive marketplace speaks volumes.
As for the rear wheels rotating faster than the fronts while braking on slippery surfaces, that all depends upon which wheel locks up first.
Engaging the e-brake on a slippery surface, particularly while going downhill, with the rear end unloaded (weight transfer to the front when going downhill), is an EXCELLENT way to inadvertently lock the rear brakes. Then you are likely to end up with the rear end trying to come around, since rolling friction being greater than sliding friction.
That is not a technique that I would recommend to anyone and certainly not a technique that I've ever seen recommended by any professional driving organization.
Guess which ones had the best cornering and braking in the snow? Snow tires hands down.
A while back Car & Driver did a test comparing FWD, RWD, and AWD with all season and snow tires. Guess what? Putting snow tires on any of them greatly improved traction and braking distance.
Go to the Tire Rack's web site. They've done side by side tests. Real live data.
As for the extra cost, it's not that expensive. When you have your snow tires on, you're not wearing your all season/summer tires so your all season/summer tires last longer (in terms of years, not miles, of course).
Will studded snow tires give you better traction than regular snow tires? Sure, but they're noisy and many states restrict studded tires. Will chains give good traction? Sure, but they're noisy, they're a pain to put on and take off, and you can't go very fast with them on.
Do I prefer a rear-biased car over a front-biased car? Sure, but I grew up with a RWD car and am very comfortable counter-steering. Does that mean that front-biased cars are unsafe in the snow? Nope. I've spent many years driving FWD in snow, with autos and manuals. They do just fine (better uphill than most RWD cars, as a matter of fact).
But anytime what you're facing is a slippery hard surface, packed snow or ice, those "edges" in winter treads will always be determental to good traction.
You may want to reconsider that one! Under "ideal" conditions, the force of friction does not depend on the surface area and being on cold hard ice is about as close to the ideal as you can get.
tidester, host
That mind is closed up tighter than Fort Knox. As you said, nobody will ever convince you otherwise. You asked for winter tires that give the same contact patch as your summer that fit you vehicle and you'd "hop to it" but then continue that your summer ones are better in all conditions.
Let me ask a couple simple questions.
IF front biased, AWD or just plain FWD are such a safety hazard as you claim in all of your "knowledgeable" posts, WHY, WHY, WHY would subject yourself to such a life threatening condition and actually BUY and DRIVE daily an AWD Lexus RX300? You comment that you would actually buy an '06 RX350 and weld shut the transfer case and disconnect driveshafts (read post 1813) and that AWD is useless. Unless it's just that Evil Knievel, sky dive with no reserve chute kinda quality you have, why wouldn't you just buy a 2WD vehicle? You pick it, need an SUV for size or other, a 4Runner or Sequoia from any southern dealer will be RWD ONLY unless you order with other drive options. Same deal for Ford, Chevy and others I'm sure. Maybe you long for front drum brakes, lapbelts, unlaminated non safety glass, and Bias ply tires again?
MANY people when I look back here at Edmunds just seem to get into confrontational posts with you ALL the time. Did you ever consider why? Maybe it's just because no matter what facts are presented it goes nowhere except into confusing, misleading posts. Why is it there are many posts that always seem to end "wwest we will just have to agree to disagree"? It's just mind boggling to me that you continue to just really try to twist people into your reality and not provide info to help them decide based on multiple fact sources. I'll probably add more in the future but as I often did, I seem to skip over many of your posts, shaking my head every time I read one. Let me guess, aluminum frame single pane "storm" windows covering single pane double hung windows probably provide better insulating quality over double or triple pane casement windows in your the world is flat don't fall over the edge reality also?
Other people have you given their personal experience in regards to the difference in available traction as I have. Should you decide to try some in the future, I believe it will be a revealing experience for you. If your favorite summer tires ever wear out, you might want to try the Nokian WR http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/tires_popup.cfm?id=17&size=225/70R16 as a replacement. This tire is listed as “all weather” by the manufacturer. It is one step up from the “all season” and listed with the mountain/snowflake severe service emblem. It also happens to have a 50k mileage warranty, is very quiet, rides well, and provides EXCELLENT grip in wet and dry. Many friends and family run them year round as they also don’t want to switch out with other “dedicated” rims/tires. That said they are also on their second or third sets and won’t buy others because of their experience in how much better they grip in winter and rain as compared to the previous summer tires they had. My in-laws actually took their 2003 RX300 on day one and drove to the tire shop replacing their Bridgestone’s with the WR’s due to their previous experience.
"....summer tires..." "...are better in all conditions..."
If I have said that then I certainly didn't mean too, otherwise why do I currently have a set of snow chains in the RX??
The reason I own a front biased AWD is simple, life is full of compromises. In 2001 the AWD RX300 represented, for me, the best all around SUV of that size and class. Upon purchase it immediately got 1.5" wheel spacers, 17X8 wheels and the appropreate +1 tires. The spacers not only allow enough suspension clearance at the rear for the wider wheel/tire combination but also allow me to safely use snow chains at the rear first and then also at the front when necessary. The latter having not happened to date.
And I think you might be missing my point, entirely. Yes, there are certain conditions wherein winter tires provide more, excellent, traction as compared to my summer tires. And for those that want to go to the expense and constant road noise that's fine.
But in my circumstance, or opinion, here in my area of the country most of the time, the clear majority of the time, summer tires provide more than enough traction. So I chose not to put a "band aid" over a non-existant wound.
It irritates me mightily that our roadbeds around here are literally be destroyed by all the studded tires running around on pavement 100% of the time when they are really only needed less than .01% of the time and some winters not at all.
But what this "argument" really comes down to is this. Some of you convert to winter tires during the winter months and that's just fine with me. IMMHO there will be times, maybe even most of the time, when you could get better traction with summer tires, but you chose to run the winter tires in the event they may be, are, needed.
For myself I treat those "events" as rare exceptions and respond to them as such. If I still lived in north central MT I'm sure I would be more in your corner.
Correct everything has pros and cons. I myself have never had a tire siped and don't plan to. The tires I buy have them from the manufacturer and I'm not looking to alter the factory design. I had given that as an example so wwest would have info too read. The actual siping process takes no rubber away so does not change the contact patch or tread surface area as he had suggested. The availability of the siping provides those that do not want to get other tires, an inexpensive option to increase the biting edges that have an opportunity to gain more traction in less then ideal conditions (snow/ice/rain). Siping a harder tire (or a tire that gets hard in cold conditions) could definitely cause the problems you describe.
My Nokian WR has a LOT of zigzag siping from factory and has seen some VERY hard miles (gravel and LARGE rock roads, mud, barely paved, high speeds, corners at limit, etc.) so far over about 25k I have not lost any chunks of rubber anywhere. My Nokian Q snows have zigzag sipes on every block of rubber that you can almost fan the block. They have some harder miles in those same conditions and also have not lost any chunks I also only run them from mid November to early April.