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Comments
http://www.recalls.net/rcls/category/autosub/s-t.htm#toyota
When I am talking about the Protege, I am usually talking about the ES model with its larger engine; sport suspension; larger brakes, wheels, and tires; more sound insulation; sport seats; etc. There is actually a world of difference between the DX/LX models and the ES models. Now, of course, the ES would be more than that $1,400 difference. The ES model is the one that the press raves about. Its overall balance of ride, handling, acceleration, braking, comfort, and overall chassis dynamics puts it in a league of more expensive vehicles. As for the warranty issue... I agree Kia and Hyundai have impressive warranties. But, as we always told our customers, the best warranty is your peace of mind... and the one you never use...
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The recall on 2001 Echoes is a mistake. It should be for model year 2000 Echoes. This is the cold weather recall for that model year that is listed on the NHTSA site. If you read the recall, you will see that the manufacture date ran from sometime in 1999 to March of 2000. This is what showed me it was a typo and they meant 2001.
Hope my post clears up the confusion in your mind.
The Sephia's 1.8L engine and the Sportage's 2.2L engine are Mazda designs through and through. Kia builds them and has modified them slightly, which resulted in slightly more horsepower but less torque and fuel mileage. I do believe when these two vehicles are redesigned, they will move away from their Mazda chassis and engine and on to a Hyundai platform and engine.
If this is true, why are sales of Korean cars in the U.S. soaring? For example, Hyundai has sold 195,832 vehicles in the U.S. through July, up 33% from last year. Through July, Kia has sold 121,038 vehicles, up 39% from last year. So there appear to be many Americans willing to trust the reliability of Korean cars now, and their numbers are steadily increasing. I expect that the new, improved models like the Accent, Elantra, Sonata, Santa Fe, XG300, Rio, and Optima have a lot to do with the increase, as does the Hyundai/Kia warranty program.
As for the "Mercury Contour" (or "Ford Mystique"?), I owned a '95 Mystique. While a good car in some respects, e.g., handling, it was hands-down the most unreliable car I have ever owned (and I once owned a Vega!). In its first six months, it spent over a month of that, total, in the shop for a myriad of problems and recalls. Comparing the Mystique (or the Mistake as I fondly refer to it) to my Hyundai Elantra is unfair--to the Hyundai. My Elantra has had no problems in almost one year of driving, and no recalls (but there was a recall prior to delivery of the car). It's been in the shop a total of 2 hours--for a free one-month inspection and a free oil change.
Face facts--the days in which the Korean automakers sold junk cars in the U.S. is over. Now the other automakers will have to compete on terms other than, "Oh, you wouldn't want to buy that Korean car, it's a piece of junk--remember the Excel? Remember the LeMans? Here, spend a few thousand more for this car here, with fewer features and a lesser warranty. We make them better, so we don't have to have as good of a warranty."
I agree that 0-60 in 8.4 secs doesn't qualify as "fast". That's what my Elantra will do, and I wouldn't call it fast. But it's plenty quick enough for me in the Land of 10,000 Radar Guns.
Consumer Reports seems to indicate that the Echo is just as comfortable as the Mazda Protege.
As to quality, well, the Echo was one of the top three in its category. The Protege was not.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Here's a review that does favorably compare the Sephia to a Civic and others.
http://www.womanmotorist.com/review/kia/bs-kia-sephia-2k-01.shtml
I guess we can ignore their recommending the Protege as a new and used car then. ; )
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And check the post shortly before mine where Larry asks what the Echo is fast compared to. Given that Larry has a Protege, I thought it appropriate that I compare the Echo with the Protege.
Funny, I don't see you guys jumping on Larry for his slam of the Echo. I really find Larry's subsequent post funny when he accuses me of slamming the Protege. Again, where is the slam? I merely stated some facts and relayed some third party opinions.
Thanks a lot, I really like being called a fool. I'm sure all the other Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo buyers out there like it also. And there's a lot of them. Sales of Korean cars are soaring at a far faster rate than are other entry-level makes. And it's not just because of their new models. Consider Hyundai's sales figures for July 2000 vs. July 2001; every single model (of those available in July 2000 of course) has increased sales year-over-year. Same thing for June. In May, they were all up except one model. In April, same thing. Same for March, February, and January. Lots of fools buying lots of Korean cars.
Let's compare these results to some other makes, and we'll see where at least some of the Korean automakers' sales gains are coming from. First, let's look at Mazda. I couldn't find sales figures for Mazda in the U.S., but www.mazda.com has figures for the entire company. From January-June 2001, exports of passenger cars were down 4.9% from a year ago, and international production was down 17.2%. I could not find figures broken down by model.
How about Toyota U.S.A. passenger car sales? They are nice enough to provide detailed sales figures, and overall for 2001, sales are down 8.4% from a year ago. Only Supra (up a whopping 200%, from 1 unit in 2000 to 3 units in 2001) and Prius (up 900%) show increases. Echo is down 13.5%. Corolla is down a fraction.
And how about American Honda? Overall Honda division sales are up year-to-date 0.3% from last year--essentially flat. Civic sales are down 3.3%. I could go on, but you see the pattern and I have to go to work in the morning.
What can we deduce from these figures? Sales are down at Mazda and Toyota, and are flat at Honda (actually down for their entry-level model, our focus here). Sales are way up at Hyundai and Kia, up 30+ percent year-over-year. In the sales world, when you are gaining sales and the competition's sales are flat or declining, you are taking market share away from THEM.
Oh, and BTW, after I've driven my Hyundai for 4 years, know what I have? I have another year left on my bumper-to-bumper warranty and 6 years left on my powertrain warranty.
P.S. An Echo is not a Protege. And a Protege is not a BMW 3-series. This does not make the Echo and Protege bad cars, but they each have their distinct strengths and personalities--and prices.
If it was what a person paid, then a Dodge Neon ACR would be considered a low end car because you can buy one from Carsdirect.com for under $15,000.
But it is still a Neon though and a base Neon starts under our agreed upon cap so how do we deal with the Neon ACR and the Neon R/T?
And what about other low end cars like the Protege that have special or limited editions like the MP3?
And the Toyota figures that I know about indicate that sales are up by 7.5% for the year. Sorry I cannot provide a link but the information came through a post over on AOL's auto boards. If you thought finding a specific post here on Edmunds was bad, finding one on AOL is even worse.
In all seriousness, none of the Koreans match the quality of the two big Japanese guns (Honda and Toyota).
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And there was no put-down of the Protege in my post. Just a comparison between the Protege and the Echo using third party facts and opinions.
Larry, you did ask. And I answered.
Seriously, I don't think Kia is caught them yet either but I do believe the gap has closed tremendously. All cars must be getting better because I don't see that many complaints on the boards anymore, just opinions.
I bet when the quality of Hyundai and Kia's cars improve, Hyundai will reduce the power train warranty and the bumper to bumper warranty to whatever is common in the industry.
Dodge had problems with quality and perceptions of quality and they went to a long warranty for a while.
I bet also that Hyundai will eventually raise their prices.
Iluv, if the prices of the Korean cars are comparable and the warranty is no longer as long as it is now, will your love of the styling cause you to continue buying Korean?
He claimed that the 2000 Sephia was making strides toward the more reliable small cars and was almost there in terms of the J.D. Powers survey.
I know these figures are for 2001 and I don't know exactly what other small cars he was talking about, but the 2001 Sephia had an average of 250 problems per 100 cars. The 2001 Toyota Echo by comparison had an average of 118 problems per 100 cars.
As to the comparisons to other cars, the reviewer said that the Sephia drove like other small cars. By that, I presume he meant with a steering wheel. ; )
major... which article are you referring to that rated the Protege ES 0-60mph in 8.9 seconds. The 1999 Protege ES review of Car and Driver November 1998 clocked the Protege with an 8.4 second run to 60mph. I'd post a link, but the Edmunds software throws a fit about the character count.
Who said Mazda sales are down? As of July 2001, year-over-year sales have increased 10.6%, led by a strong 8.6% increase in Protege sales and a whopping 54.2% in Millenia sales.
Protege a BMW? No. But, Car and Driver said, "This Mazda tops the charts for driving fun. Its chassis muscles are athletic, its engine is sweet and strong, its controls are precise and direct, and the look is classy inside and out. This is a car that does everything well. And it has spirit. BMW verve for less than half the price. What's not to like?" Again, I'd post a link but this character limit!!! Anyways, it was from their "Little Cars 6.1" comparison test of June 2000. They tested 13 sedans equipped with 5-spd transmissions and 16-valve DOHC 4-cyl engines. The price cap was set at $16,000. Wanna see how they ranked?
13. Kia Sephia LS
12. Daewoo Nubira CDX
10. Toyota Echo (tie)
10. Suzuki Esteem 1.8GLX Sport (tie)
9. Saturn SL2
8. Mitsubishi Mirage DE
7. Chevrolet Prizm
6. Hyundai Elantra GLS
5. Dodge Neon ES
4. Honda Civic LX
3. Ford Focus ZTS
2. Nissan Sentra GXE
1. Mazda Protege ES
Sephia as reliable as Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan? One quick perusal through the Sephia board will make you think otherwise. But be forewarned... its a battle-ground in there.
He stated that Hyundai will not leave the low end market, but that they will be taking steps to differentiate Hyundai and Kia.
He also stated that the long haul warranty is in for the long haul. Only time will tell if this holds true. From a business standpoint, if reducing it will not mean a loss of sales, the smart thing would be to cut it down.
Thanks.
However, where did the poster who brought up this point seemingly get the idea that all the testers from Consumer Report are 5'8"?
Tester height is mentioned by Consumer Reports, but that is in relation to headroom. Consumer Reports states that headroom is how much room there is above a 5'9" tester's head.
Consumer Reports says that there is 4.5"s of headroom in the Echo. This is one area I must disagree with Consumer Reports on. If you add the 5'9" height of the tester to the 4.5"s of headroom, you come up with 6'.5". This seems to indicate that a person a shade over 6' would find himself brushing the ceiling. I am a shade over 6' as I said and I still feel like I have plenty of headroom. Perhaps my having long legs has something to do with it.
And I would say that weight also plays a big part in terms of comfort.
Personally, I find my Echo to be very comfortable.
I think the speed champ of low end cars would have to be the Neon. I say this based on what I am reading right now.
AutoWeek's The 2001 Ultimate Buyer's Guide indicates that the 132hp, manual transmission Neon (not Neon R/T or Neon ACR) they tested did 0 to 60 in 7.94 seconds and the quarter in 16.12 seconds. The base price was around $12,500.
Can anyone find a faster low end car?
C&D has this to say about the Protege, "The Protege has long been a favorite around these parts. The last-generation car clobbered 12 other compact sedans in our "Little Cars 6.1" comparo in June 2000 with its fair impersonation of a BMW 2002."
To me this says that C&D is NOT comparing the Protege with a MODERN day BMW of ANY kind.
American Honda is UP 2.6%.
Mazda is UP 9.3%.
Mitsubishi is down 3.6%.
Nissan is down 9.5%.
Subaru is UP 6.8%.
Suzuki is UP 3.9%.
Toyota is UP 6.4%.
Now Backy may claim that his figures for the above makers do not include anything but passenger cars. However, Kia and Hyundai both sell non-car vehicles so if the sales figures for them include these vehicles, then the sales figures for the others must include sales of any non-car vehicles.
So Backy, your response?
http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/product/docs/2001/20010801_sales.jsp
Mazda: http://www.mazda.com/publicity/siryou200107se.html
What I was not able to find was Mazda's U.S.A. sales numbers. The numbers on the above page are totals for Domestic (Japan) and International production and sales. From another post here it appears Mazda's sales numbers are up a bit this year in the U.S., although at a much slower rate than Hyundai and Kia. That still means that Hyundai/Kia are taking market share away from Mazda, since the rate of growth for Mazda is less than 1/3 that of Hyundai and Kia.
Toyota: It's gone! The page I found last night is no longer there. I found it at
http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/index.jsp#product
There was a press release on the left side of this page with figures from the first half of 2001. On that page, there was a link to a chart with detailed sales figures, such as the number of Supras (yes, it was there, with 1 sold in 2000 and 3 in 2001--maybe a special deal, where someone brought them from Japan and made them U.S.-legal?). But now this link is nowhere to be found. I think what may have happened is that when they posted the August sales press release today, it bumped the press release I saw off the page. And this one doesn't have the details like the one I saw.
Honda: See the press release at
http://www.honda2001.com/news/press.html?y=2001&r=609
then use the link at the bottom of this page to see the detailed sales figures.
9. Neon ES
8. Civic LX
7. Corolla LE
6. Cavalier LS
5. Nubria CDX
4. Protege ES
3. Elantra GLS
2. Focus SE
1. Sentra SE
Of course, these were all 2000 models, meaning the previous-generation Civic and Elantra. Even so, the Korean cars came out pretty well, didn't they? Here's what the editors had to say about the 2000 Elantra:
"Are we impressed by what Hyundai has to offer the economy sedan buyer? Definitely. Remember, less than one percentage point separated our second, third, and fourth place finishers, meaning it could statistically be called a three-way tie for second place. Just for fun, we crunched the numbers for the Elantra without the $395 spoiler. Result? It would have officially taken second place. In a market as competitive as economy sedans, that's not a bad place to be. We'd like to see some tweaks in the areas of suspension tuning, tire quality and steering feel. And a reduction in wind, road and engine noise, especially at highway speeds, would also improve the Elantra's overall score."
"Still, this was the cheapest car in the test and thus had an automatic advantage in our value category. Thankfully, price isn't the only thing this Hyundai has going for it. All the key ingredients are here: performance, feature content, ergonomics, a top-notch warranty...with some minor improvements this could be the best economy sedan in America. As it stands, it's just a damn good one."
So take off the optional spoiler, and a Korean car winds up in second place. And note that Hyundai has addressed the wish-list of the editors for the 2001 re-do: suspension tuning, tire quality, steering feel, and noise reduction all accomplished, plus many more improvements. So maybe that makes a Korean car, the 2001 Elantra, "the best economy sedan in America", since all the editors said it would take to make it so were some "minor improvements"?