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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    Found the same recalls online. It says speed control instead of cruise control. Maybe it's not the same thing. Click on this website to ensure I'm not crazy.


    http://www.recalls.net/rcls/category/autosub/s-t.htm#toyota

  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    I have driven just about every car under $30k that's available out there. When I was selling cars, I wanted to be knowledgeable of the competition and know what I had to go up against.

    When I am talking about the Protege, I am usually talking about the ES model with its larger engine; sport suspension; larger brakes, wheels, and tires; more sound insulation; sport seats; etc. There is actually a world of difference between the DX/LX models and the ES models. Now, of course, the ES would be more than that $1,400 difference. The ES model is the one that the press raves about. Its overall balance of ride, handling, acceleration, braking, comfort, and overall chassis dynamics puts it in a league of more expensive vehicles. As for the warranty issue... I agree Kia and Hyundai have impressive warranties. But, as we always told our customers, the best warranty is your peace of mind... and the one you never use...
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    and there's that great Kia Sephia styling. Mechanically the Kia Sephia is fine. Mine is. It hugs the road on corners and accelerates the fastest between 3rd and 4th gears. This works great for 3rd gear semi-powersliding turns. My Sephia with it's Yokohama's grips the road nicely and accelerates up to a gentle slip in to 4th. The Sephia's engine was designed by Kia with input from Mazda. They probably changed something small in it so it has the Kia originality stamp on it or something. Does the job that's all that's important to me. Shuma/Spectra for 2002 Spectra or Mentor/Sephia II for 2002 Sephia? That's the latest question as 2002 models hit the sales lots.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I checked the site and the speed control is not the same as cruise control and it is a gulf state regional recall. Don't know why it is not listed on the NHTSA site.

    The recall on 2001 Echoes is a mistake. It should be for model year 2000 Echoes. This is the cold weather recall for that model year that is listed on the NHTSA site. If you read the recall, you will see that the manufacture date ran from sometime in 1999 to March of 2000. This is what showed me it was a typo and they meant 2001.

    Hope my post clears up the confusion in your mind.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I was trying to clear up the confusion on the cold weather recall and I made the same typo. In my last sentence of the next to last paragraph, I typed 2001 when I meant 2000.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I knew not everyone would agree with my definition of quick. It really depends on what your opinion is. I almost cringed when I wrote my definition of quick, because in the past, I would have considered a car that does the 1/4 mile in 15 seconds or above very slow. I used to have a car that ran the 1/4 mile in 14.5 seconds and I thought THAT was slow compared to the cars that I was racing. I wanted to make a fair definition. But I must disagree with you on two things: Regardless of the transmission or gearing, there are not that many cars out there that are fast 0-60 and slow in the 1/4 mile and vice versa. At least there is never a huge discrepency between the two (1/4 and 0-60) Also, I would not call a car that does 0-60 in 8.4 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 16.5 seconds "fast". Maybe 10 years ago, but not now. In fact, I would call that "average", or "peppy". Like I said before, you cannot buy a new "fast" car for $15K or less.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    0-60mph in 8.4 seconds and a mid-16's 1/4 mile for an economy car would be considered "fast." However, compared to a sports car, this would be considered extremely slow. Personally, I would have to agree with newcar31. 8.4 seconds is "peppy" but not "fast." There are no "fast" low-end cars, but plenty of them are "peppy." The Echo gets wonderful mileage for its acceleration ability, but then again, it weighs less than a Mazda Miata and averages about 600 pounds lighter than most of its competitors.

    The Sephia's 1.8L engine and the Sportage's 2.2L engine are Mazda designs through and through. Kia builds them and has modified them slightly, which resulted in slightly more horsepower but less torque and fuel mileage. I do believe when these two vehicles are redesigned, they will move away from their Mazda chassis and engine and on to a Hyundai platform and engine.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>Too many people got stung by horrible reliability by Korean cars sold under the guise of various American brands in the past to trust the reliability of Korean made cars now.<<

    If this is true, why are sales of Korean cars in the U.S. soaring? For example, Hyundai has sold 195,832 vehicles in the U.S. through July, up 33% from last year. Through July, Kia has sold 121,038 vehicles, up 39% from last year. So there appear to be many Americans willing to trust the reliability of Korean cars now, and their numbers are steadily increasing. I expect that the new, improved models like the Accent, Elantra, Sonata, Santa Fe, XG300, Rio, and Optima have a lot to do with the increase, as does the Hyundai/Kia warranty program.

    As for the "Mercury Contour" (or "Ford Mystique"?), I owned a '95 Mystique. While a good car in some respects, e.g., handling, it was hands-down the most unreliable car I have ever owned (and I once owned a Vega!). In its first six months, it spent over a month of that, total, in the shop for a myriad of problems and recalls. Comparing the Mystique (or the Mistake as I fondly refer to it) to my Hyundai Elantra is unfair--to the Hyundai. My Elantra has had no problems in almost one year of driving, and no recalls (but there was a recall prior to delivery of the car). It's been in the shop a total of 2 hours--for a free one-month inspection and a free oil change.

    Face facts--the days in which the Korean automakers sold junk cars in the U.S. is over. Now the other automakers will have to compete on terms other than, "Oh, you wouldn't want to buy that Korean car, it's a piece of junk--remember the Excel? Remember the LeMans? Here, spend a few thousand more for this car here, with fewer features and a lesser warranty. We make them better, so we don't have to have as good of a warranty."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Anyone have any performance specs on the 2001 Neon ACR? I've searched all over the Web and haven't been able to find performance numbers on this particular model, but other data, e.g. numbers on the GenOne Neon R/T and ACR lead me to believe it might approach 0-60 in around 7.5 secs, and a 1/4 mile under 16. Then at least we'd have one bona-fide low-end performance car, by some definitions anyway.

    I agree that 0-60 in 8.4 secs doesn't qualify as "fast". That's what my Elantra will do, and I wouldn't call it fast. But it's plenty quick enough for me in the Land of 10,000 Radar Guns.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Well, the 5 speed Echo is faster than the Mazda Protege ES with a manual transmission. The ES does 0 to 60 in 8.9 seconds and the quarter in 16.8 seconds. My source for data on the Protege is Car And Driver.

    Consumer Reports seems to indicate that the Echo is just as comfortable as the Mazda Protege.

    As to quality, well, the Echo was one of the top three in its category. The Protege was not.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    It could be that Hyundai and Kia are taking sales away from Daewoo. It could be that Hyundai and Kia are taking sales away from used car dealers. And it could be what the other poster said. I don't think there is enough evidence to say definitively what it is.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    they still have beaucoup trouble building a good looking small car. With Kia's Sephia as reliable as the others and way better looking with a better warranty and lower price, why would anyone buy anything else than a Kia or Hyundai?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I don't like instigating attacks....but iluvsephia, you need to quit making such arrogant statements like that. No car reviewer (Car and Driver, JD Power, etc) can support that view. I guarantee a Toyota of the same price and year no matter whether it is an Avalon or ECHO, will outlast that crappy Kia. Kia doesn't built cars keeping in mind that they should last long. They just keep in mind that there are fools (plenty of them)out there who will think its a good deal to pay less for a car that can't last like a Honda or Toyota. I'd say that if you lease a Kia or Hyundai, you will have few problems...but once you starting driving that car for more than 4 years....you'll see what a great deal you got. You will have been screwed into having every piece besides the steering wheel replaced...and as for cheap materials...you better hope your little Sephia doesn't encounter a hail storm. And when I pass you on the road in my Toyota and you need a ride...I'll just laugh.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    could it be that they have grown due to the huge size increase of their models? Just a while back it was the Sephia and Sportage...now its the Sephia, Sportage, Rio, Spectra, Optima and now the Sedona. When ever you double your line up...your sales should grow...just makes sense....but if those figures are from one year where it was only the Sephia and Sportage...and the following year saw Sephia, Sportage, Rio and Spectra...shouldn't it have grown by 100%?
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    What's your point? Who is aguing about Protege vs. Echo? I know my car is not that fast. Neither is the Echo. They are both SLOW cars, and if you don't think so, you have never driven a fast car. I wouldn't buy an Echo if my life depended on it. It's not like I picked the Protege because I couldn't afford the Echo. The reason why is because I think it looks like a toaster on wheels. I know Toyotas are legendary as far as reliability and I bought my Protege anyway because I LIKE IT. I don't like the looks of the Echo or the handling feel, otherwise I might have bought one. By the way, my Protege will torch your Echo in the twisties and look much better doing it. Have fun getting good mpg and having a statistically more reliable car (It's not like the Protege isn't reliable). Meanwhile, I will just have fun driving my Protege.......P.S. Consumer Reports also recommended the Jetta last year, shows what they know.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    Saw my friend's Toyota Avalon after a hail storm. Not a pretty site. Hood, truck, and top of car were covered with big dings. Also due to some strange construction of the vehicle, it cost a lot more to fix than other cars. Maybe they were feeding my friend a line of bull. Who knows. You're right that I can't say Kia makes a better car than the Japanese yet, but hopefully after 5 years I will. I expect to drive my Sephia for more than 10 years and if all the Festivas I still see on the road are any indication, it will last that long.


    Here's a review that does favorably compare the Sephia to a Civic and others.


    http://www.womanmotorist.com/review/kia/bs-kia-sephia-2k-01.shtml

  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    I agree, and hopefully I won't have to use it. But knowing you have it is a little piece on mind in itself. I see plenty of Toyotas, Hondas, and Mazdas in the repair shops also and they're not all 10 year old cars. All dealers have a repair shop for a reason. I guess if I test drove as many cars as you, I might better notice differences in how they drive. As a amateur though, I really couldn't notice that big of a difference between all the low end cars.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I don't know how you can even compare a Protege with an Echo. The Echo is a great car for reliability and economy. The Protege is a DRIVER'S car that just happens to be affordable, reliable, and somewhat fuel efficient. Magazines have called it an "econo sports sedan" or a "BMW for half the price". You will never hear ANY magazine journalist refer to the Echo in such a way. If I needed a brand new car to deliver pizzas in, I might get an Echo or a Geo Metro.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    Anyone who claims a Protege is a BMW for half the price, has never ridden in a BMW. My friend has a 323i and there is no comparison in ride comfort. Of course for the price, there shouldn't be.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    Test drove a 2000 LX before buying my Sephia. As I stated previously. The Protege rode slightly better than the Sephia but not enough for the difference in price. Have you ever driven a Sephia?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    So Newcar, you are of the opinion that the opinion of Consumer Reports should be taken with a large grain of salt?

    I guess we can ignore their recommending the Protege as a new and used car then. ; )
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    When are these people going to wake up and smell Karl Malone's socks? Ree-he-he-hee-he--hee-lll-eeeyyy!!!!!! I wouldn't consider consulting a dopey publication like that-it's a waste of time. A personal review of the vehicle works much better, thank you very much. The only good thing about them is to see pictures of future cars coming out. Also, historical pictures of cars from the 50's and 60's, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    How can what I posted be considered a slam? Did I make any disparaging comments about the Protege?

    And check the post shortly before mine where Larry asks what the Echo is fast compared to. Given that Larry has a Protege, I thought it appropriate that I compare the Echo with the Protege.

    Funny, I don't see you guys jumping on Larry for his slam of the Echo. I really find Larry's subsequent post funny when he accuses me of slamming the Protege. Again, where is the slam? I merely stated some facts and relayed some third party opinions.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    I use their reliability statistics as a suggestion, not as a rule. If I listened to them, I would have never bought my 75 MG Midget or my 74 Fiat 128 as used cars in the late 70's. Both were rated horribly but I had great luck with them. As for Consumer Report ratings on confort and ride, I ignore it completely. That is very subjective. Being 6'3", my comfort level in a car would be completely different from a 5'8" reviewer.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>>They just keep in mind that there are fools (plenty of them)out there who will think its a good deal to pay less for a car that can't last like a Honda or Toyota.<<<

    Thanks a lot, I really like being called a fool. I'm sure all the other Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo buyers out there like it also. And there's a lot of them. Sales of Korean cars are soaring at a far faster rate than are other entry-level makes. And it's not just because of their new models. Consider Hyundai's sales figures for July 2000 vs. July 2001; every single model (of those available in July 2000 of course) has increased sales year-over-year. Same thing for June. In May, they were all up except one model. In April, same thing. Same for March, February, and January. Lots of fools buying lots of Korean cars.

    Let's compare these results to some other makes, and we'll see where at least some of the Korean automakers' sales gains are coming from. First, let's look at Mazda. I couldn't find sales figures for Mazda in the U.S., but www.mazda.com has figures for the entire company. From January-June 2001, exports of passenger cars were down 4.9% from a year ago, and international production was down 17.2%. I could not find figures broken down by model.

    How about Toyota U.S.A. passenger car sales? They are nice enough to provide detailed sales figures, and overall for 2001, sales are down 8.4% from a year ago. Only Supra (up a whopping 200%, from 1 unit in 2000 to 3 units in 2001) and Prius (up 900%) show increases. Echo is down 13.5%. Corolla is down a fraction.

    And how about American Honda? Overall Honda division sales are up year-to-date 0.3% from last year--essentially flat. Civic sales are down 3.3%. I could go on, but you see the pattern and I have to go to work in the morning.

    What can we deduce from these figures? Sales are down at Mazda and Toyota, and are flat at Honda (actually down for their entry-level model, our focus here). Sales are way up at Hyundai and Kia, up 30+ percent year-over-year. In the sales world, when you are gaining sales and the competition's sales are flat or declining, you are taking market share away from THEM.

    Oh, and BTW, after I've driven my Hyundai for 4 years, know what I have? I have another year left on my bumper-to-bumper warranty and 6 years left on my powertrain warranty.

    P.S. An Echo is not a Protege. And a Protege is not a BMW 3-series. This does not make the Echo and Protege bad cars, but they each have their distinct strengths and personalities--and prices.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Someone talked about the amount a person paid as being the determining factor as to what constituted a low end car. I disagree. I think the MSRP should be used.

    If it was what a person paid, then a Dodge Neon ACR would be considered a low end car because you can buy one from Carsdirect.com for under $15,000.

    But it is still a Neon though and a base Neon starts under our agreed upon cap so how do we deal with the Neon ACR and the Neon R/T?

    And what about other low end cars like the Protege that have special or limited editions like the MP3?
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    I remember 20 years ago that people said the same thing about Japanese cars that are being said about Korean cars today.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Did you really mean Supra? That car is not even offered in this country anymore.

    And the Toyota figures that I know about indicate that sales are up by 7.5% for the year. Sorry I cannot provide a link but the information came through a post over on AOL's auto boards. If you thought finding a specific post here on Edmunds was bad, finding one on AOL is even worse.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Well, maybe in 20 years the Koreans will be where the Japanese are. Of course, the Japanese will probably have moved somewhere else. ; )

    In all seriousness, none of the Koreans match the quality of the two big Japanese guns (Honda and Toyota).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Mr.Major-nice to hear your summation of the whole car mess. Korean cars WILL NEVER MATCH TOYOTA OR HONDA. Doesn't matter if they do or not. Japanese cars are overpriced, overhyped and lacking in looks. I'll never buy one so it doesn't matter if the Koreans catch them or not to me. I know this. If I buy a Kia or Hyundai my car will be backed up by a GREAT WARRANTY. I'll pay less than for a Japanese car. I'll like the looks of my Korean car a LOT MORE. These are the things that are important to me. JD Powers is probably bought off like the others. Not a source of info. that matters to me at all. Keep looking and dredging, Mr.major. Kia and Hyundai RULE THE AUTOMOTIVE WORLD!!!!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I saw no put downs of other cars in Carleton's post that Larry claims was the impetus of his post. I just saw a defense of the Echo. I did see a lot of put-downs of the Echo in Larry's and others' posts.

    And there was no put-down of the Protege in my post. Just a comparison between the Protege and the Echo using third party facts and opinions.

    Larry, you did ask. And I answered.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    That may have been true in previous years, but only time will tell about current vehicles. As I have stated before, if you use recalls as an indication of quality, Kia is already ahead. Also it was only a few years after we were calling Japanese cars junk that they started getting their good reputation. Some of us were calling them junk while others swore by them. It takes a long time to get rid of a bad rep, deserved or not, and that rep can last long after a car has gotten better.

    Seriously, I don't think Kia is caught them yet either but I do believe the gap has closed tremendously. All cars must be getting better because I don't see that many complaints on the boards anymore, just opinions.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Thanks for my laugh before my going to bed. You always crack me up.

    I bet when the quality of Hyundai and Kia's cars improve, Hyundai will reduce the power train warranty and the bumper to bumper warranty to whatever is common in the industry.

    Dodge had problems with quality and perceptions of quality and they went to a long warranty for a while.

    I bet also that Hyundai will eventually raise their prices.

    Iluv, if the prices of the Korean cars are comparable and the warranty is no longer as long as it is now, will your love of the styling cause you to continue buying Korean?
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I am not the one who said that the Protege handles like a "BMW for half the price" That was the well respected car magazine "Car and Driver" and yes they have driven MANY BMWs; in fact, I'll bet they have driven more BMWs than you have. They also said that the Protege does a nice "BMW 2002 impression". Of course you could state the obvious that BMWs are all rear wheel drive and Proteges are front wheel drive, and a Protege is not a BMW 3 series etc, etc. I don't think that was their point and it wasn't my point either. I think they were just trying to make a point when comparing Proteges to other low priced cars. I think their main point was talking about the personality of the cars. If you want to argue about it, why don't you write Car and Driver a letter.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I clicked on the link about the Sephia and I found myself wondering what the reviewer was smoking.

    He claimed that the 2000 Sephia was making strides toward the more reliable small cars and was almost there in terms of the J.D. Powers survey.

    I know these figures are for 2001 and I don't know exactly what other small cars he was talking about, but the 2001 Sephia had an average of 250 problems per 100 cars. The 2001 Toyota Echo by comparison had an average of 118 problems per 100 cars.

    As to the comparisons to other cars, the reviewer said that the Sephia drove like other small cars. By that, I presume he meant with a steering wheel. ; )
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    You guys have been busy...

    major... which article are you referring to that rated the Protege ES 0-60mph in 8.9 seconds. The 1999 Protege ES review of Car and Driver November 1998 clocked the Protege with an 8.4 second run to 60mph. I'd post a link, but the Edmunds software throws a fit about the character count.

    Who said Mazda sales are down? As of July 2001, year-over-year sales have increased 10.6%, led by a strong 8.6% increase in Protege sales and a whopping 54.2% in Millenia sales.

    Protege a BMW? No. But, Car and Driver said, "This Mazda tops the charts for driving fun. Its chassis muscles are athletic, its engine is sweet and strong, its controls are precise and direct, and the look is classy inside and out. This is a car that does everything well. And it has spirit. BMW verve for less than half the price. What's not to like?" Again, I'd post a link but this character limit!!! Anyways, it was from their "Little Cars 6.1" comparison test of June 2000. They tested 13 sedans equipped with 5-spd transmissions and 16-valve DOHC 4-cyl engines. The price cap was set at $16,000. Wanna see how they ranked?

    13. Kia Sephia LS
    12. Daewoo Nubira CDX
    10. Toyota Echo (tie)
    10. Suzuki Esteem 1.8GLX Sport (tie)
    9. Saturn SL2
    8. Mitsubishi Mirage DE
    7. Chevrolet Prizm
    6. Hyundai Elantra GLS
    5. Dodge Neon ES
    4. Honda Civic LX
    3. Ford Focus ZTS
    2. Nissan Sentra GXE
    1. Mazda Protege ES

    Sephia as reliable as Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan? One quick perusal through the Sephia board will make you think otherwise. But be forewarned... its a battle-ground in there.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Jstand, my info comes from the Road Test Digest found in most issues of Car And Driver. For the Mazda Protege ES featured in the June of 2000, article, they came up with the figures I gave.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    Ahhh... Yes, the 1999 model is the quickest of all the Protege's (except for the 2001 MP3). Each year, it has grown in weight as more features are piled on. The 2001's required the bigger engine as they had piled on about 300 pounds since 1999. BTW, I have been hearing quite strongly that Mazda will introduce a smaller vehicle (smaller than Protege) which will probably be a hatchback. It's supposed to launch in about two years. Power will be provided by a 1.5L DOHC DI (Direct Injection) S-VT (Sequential Valve Timing) 4-cyl that should compete directly with the smaller sub-compacts such as the Accent. I would imagine it will be pricier, but should start around $10k.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Automotive News has an interview with the head of Hyundai of America.

    He stated that Hyundai will not leave the low end market, but that they will be taking steps to differentiate Hyundai and Kia.

    He also stated that the long haul warranty is in for the long haul. Only time will tell if this holds true. From a business standpoint, if reducing it will not mean a loss of sales, the smart thing would be to cut it down.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Would the poster (Frank?) who first brought up the sales figures provide a link to where he got the information for Toyota? I tried using the search button of AOL; I tried searching Automotive News; and, I tried searching on Toyota.com. Nothing I did met with any success.

    Thanks.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I agree that a 6'3" person would find "comfort" to hold a different meaning than someone who is 5'8" or someone who is 6'0" (me although I can reach 6'1" if I stand up really straight).

    However, where did the poster who brought up this point seemingly get the idea that all the testers from Consumer Report are 5'8"?

    Tester height is mentioned by Consumer Reports, but that is in relation to headroom. Consumer Reports states that headroom is how much room there is above a 5'9" tester's head.

    Consumer Reports says that there is 4.5"s of headroom in the Echo. This is one area I must disagree with Consumer Reports on. If you add the 5'9" height of the tester to the 4.5"s of headroom, you come up with 6'.5". This seems to indicate that a person a shade over 6' would find himself brushing the ceiling. I am a shade over 6' as I said and I still feel like I have plenty of headroom. Perhaps my having long legs has something to do with it.

    And I would say that weight also plays a big part in terms of comfort.

    Personally, I find my Echo to be very comfortable.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I agree that speed is relative, but we are talking about low end cars as they relate to each other and not how they relate to a Ferrari or other speed demon.

    I think the speed champ of low end cars would have to be the Neon. I say this based on what I am reading right now.

    AutoWeek's The 2001 Ultimate Buyer's Guide indicates that the 132hp, manual transmission Neon (not Neon R/T or Neon ACR) they tested did 0 to 60 in 7.94 seconds and the quarter in 16.12 seconds. The base price was around $12,500.

    Can anyone find a faster low end car?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    It is true that Car And Driver compared the Protege with a BMW. A BMW of the past though. In the September issue of C&D is a review of the Protege MP3.

    C&D has this to say about the Protege, "The Protege has long been a favorite around these parts. The last-generation car clobbered 12 other compact sedans in our "Little Cars 6.1" comparo in June 2000 with its fair impersonation of a BMW 2002."

    To me this says that C&D is NOT comparing the Protege with a MODERN day BMW of ANY kind.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    Ah, but it their "Little Cars 6.1" comparo, they did say the Protege has, "BMW verve for less than half the price." Towards the end of the aritcle, they say about the Protege, "There aren't many sedans at any price that can match the dynamic balance of this Mazda, that possess the quick, confident moves and the carved-from-billet integrity of structure." How often do you hear praise like that about an economy car? Probably the last time was the early 90's Sentra SE-R. However, being semi-compared to a BMW is a whole lot better than one of the other brands (I won't mention which one, but I think we know) being compared to a used car.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Backy, where did you get those sales figures? Autonews.com has the YTD sales figures on their website right now. Those figures run contrary to what you posted.

    American Honda is UP 2.6%.
    Mazda is UP 9.3%.
    Mitsubishi is down 3.6%.
    Nissan is down 9.5%.
    Subaru is UP 6.8%.
    Suzuki is UP 3.9%.
    Toyota is UP 6.4%.

    Now Backy may claim that his figures for the above makers do not include anything but passenger cars. However, Kia and Hyundai both sell non-car vehicles so if the sales figures for them include these vehicles, then the sales figures for the others must include sales of any non-car vehicles.

    So Backy, your response?
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Ok no more stupid comments. Toyota sale are up. Definitely. Toyota will surpass Dodge in sales for 2001. Here's an article from the Toyota website. I check out cars.com news everday day and several days news posts have been car sales...look very soon as August just ended for sales figures. Oh and by the way, why does the Sephia have such pathetic gas mileage? A Corolla and even Camry can do better.


    http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/product/docs/2001/20010801_sales.jsp

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Here's where I got the sales figures for Mazda, Toyota, and Honda, which I posted late last night (or about 12,433 posts ago). Don't you people have jobs?? :)


    Mazda: http://www.mazda.com/publicity/siryou200107se.html


    What I was not able to find was Mazda's U.S.A. sales numbers. The numbers on the above page are totals for Domestic (Japan) and International production and sales. From another post here it appears Mazda's sales numbers are up a bit this year in the U.S., although at a much slower rate than Hyundai and Kia. That still means that Hyundai/Kia are taking market share away from Mazda, since the rate of growth for Mazda is less than 1/3 that of Hyundai and Kia.


    Toyota: It's gone! The page I found last night is no longer there. I found it at

    http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/index.jsp#product

    There was a press release on the left side of this page with figures from the first half of 2001. On that page, there was a link to a chart with detailed sales figures, such as the number of Supras (yes, it was there, with 1 sold in 2000 and 3 in 2001--maybe a special deal, where someone brought them from Japan and made them U.S.-legal?). But now this link is nowhere to be found. I think what may have happened is that when they posted the August sales press release today, it bumped the press release I saw off the page. And this one doesn't have the details like the one I saw.


    Honda: See the press release at

    http://www.honda2001.com/news/press.html?y=2001&r=609

    then use the link at the bottom of this page to see the detailed sales figures.

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Lists at $15,335 including destination. If that isn't close enough for consideration on this forum, then we should also stop talking about all the cars that are way over $15k list, like Protege ES.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As long as we're dusting off the comparo tests from last year, let's not forget the test that Edmunds.com ran last year:

    9. Neon ES
    8. Civic LX
    7. Corolla LE
    6. Cavalier LS
    5. Nubria CDX
    4. Protege ES
    3. Elantra GLS
    2. Focus SE
    1. Sentra SE

    Of course, these were all 2000 models, meaning the previous-generation Civic and Elantra. Even so, the Korean cars came out pretty well, didn't they? Here's what the editors had to say about the 2000 Elantra:

    "Are we impressed by what Hyundai has to offer the economy sedan buyer? Definitely. Remember, less than one percentage point separated our second, third, and fourth place finishers, meaning it could statistically be called a three-way tie for second place. Just for fun, we crunched the numbers for the Elantra without the $395 spoiler. Result? It would have officially taken second place. In a market as competitive as economy sedans, that's not a bad place to be. We'd like to see some tweaks in the areas of suspension tuning, tire quality and steering feel. And a reduction in wind, road and engine noise, especially at highway speeds, would also improve the Elantra's overall score."

    "Still, this was the cheapest car in the test and thus had an automatic advantage in our value category. Thankfully, price isn't the only thing this Hyundai has going for it. All the key ingredients are here: performance, feature content, ergonomics, a top-notch warranty...with some minor improvements this could be the best economy sedan in America. As it stands, it's just a damn good one."

    So take off the optional spoiler, and a Korean car winds up in second place. And note that Hyundai has addressed the wish-list of the editors for the 2001 re-do: suspension tuning, tire quality, steering feel, and noise reduction all accomplished, plus many more improvements. So maybe that makes a Korean car, the 2001 Elantra, "the best economy sedan in America", since all the editors said it would take to make it so were some "minor improvements"?
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