Well, it looks like the Lanos and the Nubira are not going to be in the low end arena for very much longer. GM is NOT buying Daewoo USA which has the dealers up in arms and trying to get a class action suit together. That (prevailing in this lawsuit) has about as much chance of succeeding as that guy getting $66600 for his Sephia.
04-19-2002 Spectra maiden voyage to refueling showed 38+mpg. I hope it was not a fluke. I did not try to top it off, but even if it had a little to go, the numbers are impressive to me. Supreme.
I have a feeling that if the Corolla does slip, JD Power will have get its head decapitated by 2003 Corolla lovers. I don't see how the Corolla could falter from all the favorable reviews and opinions from drivers and owners.
Supreme, you do know that to keep your fuel economy computations as accurate as possible, you should never top your tank off. It will cause your numbers to go down when compared to when you don't top off the tank.
Just wanted you guys to know that I made it to the Suzuki dealership for the test drives. Rather than try to compose my post online, I am going to sit down and write something up and post it. Normally, I just compose and post online. I think writing it down offline will help the coherence and cohesion.
I know you guys are just dying to read it, but just be patient.
Tomorrow my roommate and I are going to a Hyundai dealer and test driving an Elantra and Elantra GT.
They don't have the hatchbacks in stock at my combination Nissan/Suzuki/Hyundai/Isuzu/VW dealership. Someone left the only sedan (as opposed to dozens and dozens of Hyundais) unlocked. I thought the car had real low end construction quality, and wasn't overly comfortable even though it had a lot of room. I can't imagine that it would sell well since the 4 door sedan runs considerably more than a Hyundai GLS with much better construction quality and about the same as a Hyundai GT. I think quality wise it looks like it backed up from an Esteem, although there's considerably more room.
I'm not being an Elantra cheerleader here. I love my car, but its overall quality seems about on a par with most Japanese cars, but below the apparent quality in the new Corolla.
Too bad, I had a Suzuki 250 bike back in the early seventies and always wished the company well. The first generation Metro was like a 250cc bike, direct and fun to drive, although I'd hate to be hit in one.
Major, you actually got to drive one. Maybe my judgement would change if I actually took it out.
I really cannot give a good review of the Elantra GT. I don't mean that I think the car was bad, but that my review would not be good quality. I will do a review of the dealership and leave a review of the car to when I can do a better test drive at the Hyundai dealership connected with the Suzuki dealer where I test drove the Aerio. I will post the review of the Aerio soon, I promise.
The salesman who helped us was a green kid whose attitude was really bad when he found out we wanted to simply test drive a couple of cars and weren't there to buy. Compare that to the attitude of the Internet Sales Manager at the Suzuki dealer. He bent over backwards for us even though he knew we were there just to test drive.
We wanted to test drive an Elantra GLS with automatic and an Elantra GT with manual, but somehow we ended up test driving an Elantra GT with automatic. They didn't have any GTs with manuals so the smart salesman would have found the most fully loaded GLS with automatic and had us test drive that, but the kid didn't.
The test drive was a very short five minute trip on city streets with the salesman in the back seat and the salesman was talking non-stop.
One good thing did come of the test drive. My roommate does not like hatchbacks, but when the salesman folded down the seats and she saw how much room there was, she reconsidered. An Elantra GT would be like getting the room of a wagon in a more sporty package and my roommate liked the room.
The Elantra is still on our list of future cars, but that dealership is definitely off the list of where to buy.
I have a headache which is making it hard to see or type, but I am going to try to muddle through and get something on the Aerio posted.
THE GOOD:
The ride The room Visibility Seat position The power Trunk space Fog lights on the GS
THE BAD: Cheap feel (especially gear shift knob and boot) Intrusive engine noise (present even when radio was on) Seats not as comfortable as the Corolla or Echo Non-locking fuel door Fuel economy numbers The price (too little for too much) THE SMELL
THE UGLY? Interior (although my roommate and I liked it) Exterior (although my roommate and I liked it)
In the final analysis what bothered me the most was the cheap feel of the smallish gear shift knob and the rubber boot surrounding the lever along with the engine noise. At slightly over $15k [the price of a Corolla CE with automatic] for either an Aerio S with automatic or an Aerio GS with manual, Suzuki has this car overpriced.
needs to sell for No More Than $11,500, or Price of an Accent or Rio, since it is no better in quality,imo.
3yr/36,000 mile warranty? Hyundai=5yr/60,000 miles for Less $$$. Also, road side assistance from Suzuki is only 3 years vs 5 for Hyundai.
Yes, quality and Hyundai are starting to become a more popular theme vs Hyundai=junk, as in 1986 Excel(with Mitsu underpinnings, I might add). You don't see Hyundai folding, like say Daewoo, and Kia would have folded if no one(hyundai )bought them(51% share). Gt Elantra seats were a bit thin on the padding to me, on the seat cushion, but good back support. Aerio had the Worst seats I have sat in of a ny car in the past 5 years.
Like I said before, if it were 1985, this car would have been a monstrous hit,,, it is 2002,though. Even Rio is almost on par of this Aerio thing, and it is the cheapest car in the USA. The ECHO is quiet,fairly fast, ok seats, and even less than Aerio. What was Suzuki thinking? I am guessing that they are hoping for a ton of AWD fans to stop by in Sept. They are releasing an AWD Aerio of some sorts, and it will be alittle less than Subaru's cheapest AWD car. They had better sell aton, because Hyundai is talking about an AWD Elantra later next yr, as an 04 model or 05.
It is like Suzuki built a car that no one asked for. There are more than enough other choices already.
04-25-2002 2d tank of gas. 50/50 town & country driving recorded at 35mpg. not bad. Also, discovered that the front visors slide on the rod on which they rest thus extending the distance which they can shield against bright light. Never saw such a device in 40 years of driving. Kudos to Kia. Supreme.
You must lead a deprived life if that is the first you have seen this trick or something similar. A number of cars have extension panels that come out of the side of the visor to extend the reach.
I have also seen cars where the visor slid on the rod, but in most cases, it was because something was wrong. Have you checked this out with the dealer if it is an intended feature or a case of where something broke?
A poster by the name of Lngtonge18 and I got into a discussion about the Suzuki Aerio over in the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread of the news and views board. As I feel that the more appropriate place to continue the discussion would be here, I am posting this message. Actually, for the past hour, I have been working on a post, but Edmunds did not my taking so long so when I went to post it, Edmunds made me log back in and I lost my original post. When I get a chance, I am going to go back and retype the post, but break it down into several, smaller posts (posting each one as I finish it).
In the original discussion, we discussed the Aerio, the Corolla, the Echo, and the Lancer as well as mentioning the Accent, the Rio, and the Civic. To bring people up to speed, I am going to quote some of what Lng had to say and respond to it. This way you don't have to switch back and forth between two threads. You will have the gist of what has been said in one thread. I am not trying to put words in Lng's mouth.
In post #56 over in the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lng states, "I keep hearing all this talk about the Aerio being the alternative to the Accent and Rio, but not one to the Civic etc. Why are people saying that? Because it looks undertired?" [having tires too small for the body].
That may be the reason for other people, but not for me. It has to do with the quality exhibited by the makers of the various cars. As a whole, Suzuki's products compare to Kia (which served to keep Suzuki out of last place in the 2001 J. D. Powers survey on initial quality) and Hyundai better than they do to products from Toyota and Honda. Now, you cannot compare the individual results for the Aerio [since there are none yet] to the Accent and Rio, but you can compare the results for the Esteem [the closest thing to the Aerio in the Suzuki lineup] to the Accent and the Rio. The Accent has generally better results in the individual categories than the other two which tie in all categories except body and interior quality where the Esteem beats the Rio.
I cannot speak for others, but that is why I think of the Accent, Aerio, and the Rio as being in the same category.
Supreme and I have gotten into a discussion about the Spectra compared to the Echo over in the Spectra sedan thread. Much as I invited Lngtonge18 to discuss the Aerio over here, I have invited Supreme to continue our discussion here on this board.
Supreme claims that it only takes $8995 ($10,995 - $2,000 rebate) to buy a Spectra, but it takes $11,605 to buy a comparably equipped Echo. There are several problems with that claim.
The first is that the price he gives for the Spectra does not include destination charges. The price before the rebate is actually $11,490.
The second problem is that the price he gives for the Echo DOES include destination charges. Not exactly a level playing field to start with.
The third problem is that the MSRP I come up with for a comparably equipped Echo is $11,580.
The rebate on the Spectra is due to expire tomorrow so this means that there will only be $90 difference in price.
And just how much is the superior quality of the Echo and superior gas mileage worth?
Back to talking about the Aerio and bringing people up to speed on some of what Lngtonge18 and I have already talked about in the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread. Lng, if you are out there and feel that I have mischaracterized what you have said, feel free to jump in and offer your own viewpoint.
In post #56 of that thread, Lng goes on to say, "Yea, it could use bigger wheels, but a lot of the new tall designs look like their wheels are too small (Lancer and Corolla come to mind). Just be glad the darn things have 15" wheels when not even 10 years ago they all came standard with dinky 13 inchers."
What I want to draw your attention to is Lng calling 13" tires "dinky." Why I want to draw your attention to that will become clearer in a later post. At this point, that is all I am saying and I am going on to the next post.
Still in post #56 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lng says, "As for the plastics, I haven't sat in the car [Suzuki Aerio] yet, but they do look cheap and too glossy in pictures, but I sort of expected that with price of 14k. What was everyone expecting of a Japanese built car with that price point."
I think Lng needs to be real clear as to which version of the Aerio he is talking about. At the price of 14k, the only Aerio you can buy is the Aerio S sedan with a manual transmission. MSRP (after destination charges) comes out to $14,074. The S is the lower trim line. Is that the Aerio you were talking about above?
In my response, I, inadvertently, muddied the waters by bringing up the Aerio GS and saying that for around the same price point, I could get a Corolla CE with automatic transmission or another Echo, but one that is more fully loaded. An Aerio GS with manual transmission has a price of $15,074 (after destination charges). I did not finish my thought that the Aerio S with automatic transmission has the same price as the Aerio GS with manual.
If we want to stay discussing the 14k Aerio, the S with manual transmission, then for around that price I could buy a Corolla CE with manual transmission. Actually, the Corolla CE would be a little bit less. Now, it won't have power windows, but power windows are not something I like. The presence of power windows wouldn't be a deal killer, but I do subtract points from a car if I have to take them.
Oh, about what I expect in a car costing 14k, how about a manual remote fuel flap release? My Echo, which has a base price of about 11k, has one. The Corolla, in any trim level, has one. The fuel flaps on either Aerio sedans do not lock. This leaves your gas supply exposed to anyone who wants to siphon it.
Since I was was one of the posters when Lng made his post, he made a reference to the Echo in post #56 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread.
He said, "I would take it anyday over the Echo's 105 horse engine and lack of power windows."
In my response in that thread, I pointed out that a 105 horse engine was what was in an Accent, not the Echo. Now, I want to point out the other error in Lng's statement.
You CAN get power windows in the Echo. It is part of Upgrade Package 3 which also includes keyless entry. To get Upgrade Package 3, you have to choose Upgrade Package 1 and Upgrade Package 2, but the total cost of a manual transmission Echo with all those packages and floor mats would be $14,111 (after destination charges) or about $39 more than an Aerio S with manual transmission. And the Echo has an under the passenger seat storage tray while the Aerio S doesn't. And the savings in fuel cost by buying the Aerio will wipe out that $39 difference pretty quickly.
Plus the Echo is likely to be of higher quality and more reliable.
In post #56 (last time I quote from that post, I promise), Lngtonge18 makes the claim that the Aerio can hold its own against the lower versions of the Civic, Corolla, Lancer, Protege and Sentra, while packing more standard equipment."
Although I have not mentioned it by number, post #58 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread was where I responded to Lngtonge18's post #56. I also corrected myself in post #59. Lng's response came in post #60.
He said, "As for me, I would never buy the Echo because .....it looks like a cheap economy car with dinky wheels."
This response coupled with Lng calling 13" wheels dinky led me to point out that the wheels on my Echo were bigger than the wheels on his Accent. His Accent came standard with "dinky" 13 inch wheels.
Something I did not point out over in the Suzuki thread, but the 14k Aerio that Lng made reference to comes with the same size wheels as my Echo. Both come with 14" steel wheels as standard. The Echo's can be upgraded to 14" alloy, but an Aerio owner has to go the aftermarket route to get 14" alloy.
In post #60 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lng claims that "The car [Echo] is also not near as roomy as the Aerio...." Let's examine that shall we. The following numbers come from the 2002 Suzuki Aerio and 2002 Toyota Echo brochures. Aerio numbers first and Echo numbers second.
Now the advantage in exterior dimensions for the Aerio does translate to a larger interior volume and perhaps this is what Lng meant by the Echo not being "near as roomy as the Aerio."
Interior volume (cu ft) 104.7/87.4
But does that distinct advantage in interior volume translate to more head or leg room? Those are the only two areas that I can compare since those are the only two areas that the Aerio brochures mentions while the Echo talks about those areas plus shoulder room and hip room.
If head and leg room were what Lng was referring to, I don't see that the Aerio is that much [more] roomy than the Echo.
In that same sentence, Lng goes on to repeat his erroneous statement that the Echo "doesn't offer power windows (a must have on my next car)." Keep that in mind for future reference.
Lng, aren't you glad that you don't have to scratch the Echo off your list due to lack of power windows? ; )
In post #60, Lng takes issue with my bringing up the Corolla CE. He says, "You can buy the Corolla CE with auto for the price of a GS manual?? Well, I sure hope so, since the CE doesn't have any power amenities, no CD player, no fog lamps, no alloy wheels, no spoiler, no ground effects (all of which would bring the price right up to 17k, 3k north of the Aerio)."
Please note how muddy Lng makes the water at this point. The fact is that the CE DOES come with a CD player STANDARD. Also, for around the price of a Aerio GS with manual, I can get a Corolla CE with power locks and cruise control. So much for not getting power something. Plus, the CE is not even available with fog lamps, spoiler or ground effects package. That would be the Corolla S. And it is possible to equip a Corolla S to where it costs 3k more than an Aerio, but that would be the Aerio S which does not have fog lamps, a spoiler, or alloy wheels.
In post #60 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lngtonge18 asks, "Is it possible that some just don't trust the Suzuki name as if it is a Korean car."
The answer for me is no. I did not think of the Suzuki in the same light as Korean cars before I examined where Suzuki's level of initial quality is. The fact is that Suzuki is barely better than Kia and Hyundai is better than Suzuki.
I don't really judge a car company based on where it is from. I look at each car company individually. Right now, it is just easier (and accurate) to say that, overall, Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese, American, or European cars.
In post #60 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lngtonge18 calls anyone who spends "that much money on an Echo" stupid. At this point, I am not sure if "that much" refers to the cost of an Aerio GS with manual (which would be $15k) or a Corolla S (which he says would be $17k).
At that point, I checked Lng's profile and I saw that he owns a Lancer OZ which led me to say that he shouldn't throw stones. I will explain why in a little while.
Lng's response to my bringing up the Lancer and, previously, his Accent led Lng to ask in post #63, "Now, wait a second. How did my 2 cars get pulled into this discussion?"
Well, Lng, its like this, if my Echo is fair game (and I know I brought the Echo up first) then your choice of wheels should be fair game too. And you mentioned the Accent and Lancer previously.
Remember how I pointed out to Lng that the Accent's wheels are smaller than the wheels on my Echo. Well, his response was, "Yes, I criticized the wheel size of the Echo (but it more had to do with the overall styling of the car). Got news for you, Lng, the Aerio S has the same styling and the same 14" wheels.
Lng goes on to say, "By the way, your Echo's 14" tires have the same width as my 13" tires...so there really isn't much of a difference."
But the thin tires on those 14" wheels of the Echo serves a purpose, that of saving on fuel. Compare the 34/41 fuel numbers of the Echo in manual with the 26/33 fuel numbers of the Aerio or the 28/36 fuel numbers of the Accent with the 1.5L engine. Looks like the 13" wheels on the Accent are just there to hold down the price.
In post #63 of the Suzuki: Should they stay? thread, Lngtonge18 took great umbrage at my having said that I thought he should not criticize anyone who buys an Echo given his buying a Lancer OZ.
Lng says, "The Lancer was built to play in the 14k to 17k class and it feels, looks, and performs like a car in that price range should......I'd gladly take the good low end torque and effortless acceleration of the Lancer and the Aerio over the high winding torqueless Echo."
Come again? Shall we let some reality in here? I don't know the torque curve of the Aerio, the Lancer or the Echo and I don't know the amount of peak torque for the Aerio although I do know that it makes it at 3,000 rpm. The Echo makes its peak torque of 105 lb-ft at 4,000 rpm while the Lancer makes its peak torque of 130 lb-ft at 4,250 rpm or 250 rpm higher than the Echo.
How should a car in the 14k to 17k perform? Evidently Lng thinks cars in this class should be slower than the Echo or at least the Lancer should.
Motor Trend says the 2000 Echo sedan will do 0 to 60 in 8.4 seconds and the quarter mile in 16.50 seconds while the 2002 Lancer OZ edition will do 0 to 60 in 8.8 seconds and the quarter mile in 16.60 seconds. I had to use the numbers for the 2000 Echo since Motor Trend was the only source that tested both vehicles.
My problem with anyone buying an OZ is that it is basically a Lancer ES with some visual touches thrown in. The Lancer OZ has an MSRP of $16,142 while the Lancer ES has an MSRP of $14,456. Tell me Lng, did that almost $1,700 difference get you a bigger engine?
I am truly sorry, but when I tried to do one long post covering everything, Edmunds protested at the time it took and all the work I did went down the drain.
In post #63 of the Suzuki: Should they stay thread, Lngtonge18 states, "Now, as for the Aerio vs Corolla Comparison, maybe you guys just don't get what I was trying to point out. Is the Corolla a better and more refined car? Yes, is it worth 2k more [wait a minute, what happened to your claim that it would cost 3k more for the same equipment?] for the exact same equipment, I think not. You guys are trying to compare cars that don't have the same equipment. The Aerio is geared more towards the sporty econo car in GS trim. If you want to properly compare prices, you need to equip competing cars the same way. [okay, how do we put a dollar cost on equipping the Aerio with the same fuel economy as the Corolla or how much would it cost to get the Aerio with the same quality that Toyota builds the Corolla?]. Now, let's see here: the Corolla S starts at 15k, same price as the Aerio GS. Add cruise, alloy wheels, spoiler, power windows and keyless entry, power mirrors, extra freight charges to the SE, and a CD/cassette combo and the price skyrockets to $17117, compare to the Aerio with the same equipment. Some may like not like the sportier look and that's fine, but don't compare prices of the sport model with the non sport model. As for me, that's what I like so that's what I would be comparing."
Well, I DON'T like the look of the Corolla S so that is why I compared the Corolla CE to the Aerio GS. Since you think it is all right to compare cars the way you want to, you must agree that it is fair to compare cars the way I want to.
And you mention getting a CD/Cassette combo for the Corolla S. Why? You say you want to compare cars with the same equipment and the Aerio GS does NOT come with a CD/Cassette combo. If you were upgrading to that combo on the Corolla to get the six speakers, save yourself $100 and get the deluxe CD which comes with six speakers. Also the "six" speakers on the Aerio GS are actually four speakers and two tweeters.
And how much does it cost to get chrome interior trim on the Aerio GS that comes standard with the Corolla S?
My point is that the Corolla costs more than the Aerio because of more than the options.
You still are continuing to compare apples to oranges. I'm sorry, I don't see where and why you are trying to compare the Echo to the Aerio. The 2 cars are simply in different classes and compete at different price points. After all our discussion over the Aerio, I went down to see it for myself and see how off I was (an SX model). I actually like the car even more now that I have seen it in person. The interior plastics weren't near as cheap looking as I expected and the interior definitely looked higher quality then the Accent, Rio, or Echo (none of these cars have what I would call high quality interiors). There simply is no comparison there. The interior competes quality and looks wise with the Elantra, Protege, and Sentra. The plastics in the Civic, Lancer, and Corolla are of higher quality, as it should be since they cost more. I found the seats to be very comfortable in the Aerio and I liked the fabric. I even ended up liking the digital gauges more then I thought I would. The car is amazingly spacious and is much roomier feeling then the Echo; absolutely NO comparison there. You can quote measurements all you want, but I sat in the rear seat of an Echo and it feels very narrow and cramped in there, unlike the Aerio, which feels very open, wide, and airy. You feel like you are sitting at a dining room table in the Aerio. Foot space under the front seats is amazing. Front seat room was also amazingly spacious, feeling as if you were in a minivan. The engine was quiet at idle and was very smooth and relatively quiet as you revved it. Cargo space was good and all the little storage nooks was neat. The only disappointments I saw in the car was the rough fabric used on the door panels (at least it has fabric and not just hard plastic) and the doors sounded a little hollow when slammed. Otherwise, I found a lot to like. It's definitely on my list for my next car.
As for my Accent, I bought the car because it was what I could afford. At the time, I could care less it had dinky 13" wheels, and yes, I do think they are too small. But, when I'm ready for a more expensive car, I want larger wheels and expect to get them. My beef with others is that they were complaining the 15" wheels on the Aerio looked small. It was if they were ignoring the fact they are actually 15" wheels, when not that long ago cars of this class had 13" wheels. As for the comparison styling wise between the Aerio and Echo, there isn't much of a comparison. They look nothing alike (except that they both are tall) and the Aerio looks more substantial (has that classier chunky wedge shape with nice expensive looking pull type door handles, compared to the squashed bulbous weird looks of the Echo). The 14" wheels on both cars look too small, but the Echo's styling really accentuates the smallness of not only the wheels but the whole car.
As for my Lancer OZ, I definitely think the extra money (which by the way is only $1300, not $1700) was worth it for the change in appearance. I think the regular Lancer is a rather dowdy looking car. The addition of the ground effects, spoiler, 5 spoke wheels, white faced gauges, black cloth, and aluminum trim really makes a difference on this car. It makes it look sporty and more substantial. Like I said, some don't like the sporty look, but I do. Lastly, there is no comparison between the Echo's engine and the Lancer or the Aerio. Remember, you are trying to compare a diminutive 1.5 liter engine to two torque rich 2.0 liters. There is simply no comparison to bigger engine torque. Horsepower? 108 compared to 120 and 141. Torque? 105 compared to 130 and 135. Which do you think will be more relaxed driving around town (especially when hooked up to an auto, the more popular tranny choice)? It certainly isn't going to be the Echo. Smaller engines you have to push more to get their max power. If you knew anything about the Lancer, you would know that it has a low final drive ratio and its cam profile was tuned for good low end torque, which makes it fast off the line and effortlessly gain speed without revving the engine high (my automatic can even chirp its tires off the line, something that my 97 Altima with 150 horses couldn't do). Yes, the extra weight and lower revving nature of the Lancer makes it slightly slower when pushed to its maximum, but we are talking about a very small difference (and its silly to even compare their acceleration; make the Echo as heavy and big as the Lancer or Aerio, and then we will talk). I can guarantee that the automatic Lancer would take the lead when you sap the Echo with an automatic. Not to mention that the Lancer and Aerio will be faster and feel faster when driven in a normal fashion (ie. regular no going over 3k rpms city driving; in other words, the engines have more power available in the rev range that is more commonly used). And lets not even go into which cars feel more substantial and solid on the road (the benfits of bigger, heavier cars). It's also silly to try and compare fuel economy numbers. Of course the Echo would get better mileage, it does have a much smaller engine and does weigh quite a bit less. Is that worth dealing with its hideous exterior, funky interior, and cheap look and feel of the interior? Definitely not for me. I am man enough to admit that the Echo does now offer power windows, but that must be a new option, because it was not offered last year. I don't pay attention to the car because it simply isn't in the same class of cars as the Lancer, Aerio, Elantra, etc. You are trying to compare a bargain basement subcompact economy car to the higher class of compacts, which I guess you sort of can because a top-of-the-line Echo costs as much as the base versions of those cars. However, the Echo is seriously outclassed once it gets to that price range and I doubt few shopping for a 14-16k car would compare the Echo to the larger cars like the Civic, Lancer, etc. It just doesn't compare well. It compares well to the bottom rung cars like the Accent and Rio, but even then its price is a bit too high.
One last thing. A remote fuel door is a deal killer for you?? LOLOLOL If someone really wants your gas, they can stick a screw driver into the crack and rip it right open. I mean come on! I have never ever worried about someone stealing gas from my car. Sounds like someone is still living in the past mannnnnn (say it with an obnoxious hippie accent). In fact, the release is sometimes a nuisance because I exited the car and forgot to use it, thus necessitating me to reopen the door and lean down to pull it, whereas I could have just walked to the door and fliped it open with less effort. Oh, and I don't think its ok to compare cars in whatever way you feel like. I had a problem with you comparing a BASE Corolla to a fully equipped Aerio GS. To give a more fair comparison on price, you need to equip the cars the same (which would be the Corolla CE to the Aerio S, with additions to the Corolla to compensate for the Aerio's higher standard equipment list). That's why I chose to compare the Corolla S to the Aerio GS. They compare almost exactly. I accidentally added the Cd/cassette option to the Corolla because it looked like it had a cassette player in the online pic of the Aerio. I now realize that it was a blank spot with the words CD changer on it. By the way, do you honestly think the "6 speaker" arrangement on the Corolla is anything but adding 2 extra tweeters?? Just about every car that claims to have 6 speakers in reality has 4 full range speakers and 2 separate tweeters, so that was a low blow to the Aerio. Anything else I need to explain? For someone who has a propensity to pick up the slightest errors, you sure don't understand things very well yourself and make plenty of them as well. And sorry, I can't resist this cheap spot. Notice how long my post is? All you had to do was use the back button and the copy and paste buttons after resigning in to keep from losing the first long post
Is fillibustering the wave of the future in Edmunds.While some interesting observations are found in these postings-they require quite an effort for short attention spans.I think that the Aerio is really not a valid comparison for the Echo.I saw a new Aerio at a dealership;it's an interesting looking car .I just don't see a market for it.For the money a Corolla,Elantra,Sentra or Lancer seem to offer much more. The Echo remains the king of the high mileage commuter vehicles tho.For a person who uses a car for business and puts 30-40 thousand miles a year it's hard to beat-I mean 40 mpg.The only drawback is it's size and weight.I just prefer a little larger car.
for posting Everything I Always Wanted to Know about the Suzuki Aerio but Didn't Care Enough to Ask. There was one little statement you slipped in there (I think in Post 9, but I lost track) that I found curious:
"Right now, it is just easier (and accurate) to say that, overall, Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese, American, or European cars."
As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Well, there you go again!" I'd like to know what facts you have (and we all know you are a master of facts) to substatiate your claim that Korean cars are not the equal of American cars. I know you follow Consumer Reports, so here's their opinion on American cars vs. Korean cars from the April 2002 Auto Issue:
Small Sedans: Focus ZTS is top ranked; Hyundai Elantra GLS tops all other American small cars in the group. Daewoo Nubria tops Saturn SL2, Cavalier, and Sunfire (see note below on Daewoo). Kia Spectra (a car CR has not even driven) is ranked last in the group.
Family Sedans: Hyundai Sonata LX tops all American cars in the group. Daewoo Leganza is ranked last. (But Daewoo is dead, Jim, so it's a little moot).
Small SUVs: Hyundai Santa Fe GLS tops all American SUVs in the group. Kia Sportage is ranked last.
These were the only categories that included both Korean and American cars. In two of those categories, a Korean vehicle topped all American vehicles. In another, a Korean vehicle topped all but one American vehicle.
Another data point: a few months ago, C/D compared mid-sized V6 sedans. A Korean car, the Hyundai XG350, topped all American vehicles in the test.
Another data point: J.D. Power (www.jdpower.com) ranks the Ford Focus (CR's top pick for Small Sedans) dead even with Elantra GLS in every category except Long-Term Reliability (they have no data for the Focus).
I look forward to your dozen or so posts pointing out why Korean cars are not the equal of American cars. ;-) I won't delve into the comment that Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese cars (I agree, for some of the Japanese makes) or European cars (not a fair comparison, IMO, given the relative price points of European cars sold in the U.S., and Korean cars).
Actually, Lng, power windows on the Echo have been an option for more than a year. It was offered about midway through the 2001 model year. It was offered about the same time as the hideous limited edition Roxy package.
I did not say that the lack of a fuel flap with remote release was a deal killer. I said that I expected one at the price point of the Aerio.
I find the Echo to be very comfortable to drive around town and I have squealed the tires many, many times without meaning to.
Backy, you missed or ignored the presence of the words "in general" in my statement about the quality of Korean, American, European, and Japanese cars. I am still at work, but off the clock so I don't have access to my research material to back up my statement. I probably won't be on again until sometime Thursday so I hope you can wait.
Back to Lng, what did you think about the gear shift knob? In the Aerio GS, it seems very small and I felt I was grasping a twig. Also, I was really disappointed in the rubber sleeve around the shifter. Is it this way in the SX?
Well, take care all. It is almost 3am and I need to get home and get some sleep.
Oh, on Thursday, you can also look forward to a twelve part posting comparing the Echo and the Spectra. Just kidding.
"Back to Lng, what did you think about the gear shift knob? In the Aerio GS, it seems very small and I felt I was grasping a twig. Also, I was really disappointed in the rubber sleeve around the shifter. Is it this way in the SX? "
OK, OK we get the picture you didn't like the carin any way shape or form, Jeez!
Personally I didn't like the Aerio because it felt cheap to me, I don't like the styling and I hate digital dashbords.
Is everyone who is comparing the Aerio to other cars looking only at the sedan? I'm mostly only interested in the SX, which blows all the compact cars away in versatility, room, and value. The Lancer, Corolla, Civic, etc just can't compare to the SX. I like the fact you don't have to pay extra to choose the SX over the GS. How do the other compacts seem to offer much more, lleroi? The only one that truly offers a better value is the Elantra and the only real competitor is the Protege5, which is smaller and more expensive (though a very nice car in its own right). All the others cost quite a bit more to get the same equipment, with some not even offering a comparable sporty option. That's how I look at the Aerio. It offers good value for the money. You must admit, a fully equipped Japanese car costing 15,500 (manual tranny with ABS) is quite a good deal. Only the Elantra GT offers all the GS and SX offer at the same price. I think most people's problem with this car is the Suzuki name. But, I'm one to route for the underdog and so far it has served me well. I'm not afraid to take risks, but I guess a lot of people are. The name on the rump of the car means nothing to me. I simply buy whatever car makes me happy.
Majorthomecho: All the cars the dealer had (which was a whopping 3) had automatics. They looked just like any other auto shifter to me. I'm hoping the manual shifter isn't too tall looking, like in a pickup. If the knob bugs you, you can always replace it with a nice aftermarket leather one.
for a long time, Major, no need to rush. I'm pretty busy myself right now, with wife in the hospital and trying to take care of the 3 kids, the house, and the job. Whenever you get around to it. I know you probably want to first write a sequel to your treatise on the Aerio vs. ECHO. ;-)
BTW, I didn't miss or ignore the presence of the words "in general" in your post, because those words weren't there.
I saw the sedan and the hatchback on a dealer lot.I agree the hatchback is the better of the two.However,the price,as I recall was close to $17,000.I'm not in the market for a car this size,but if i were I just did not see anything in the AERIO that would push my buttons.The body styling could possibly grow on me tho.
05-01-2002 to comment on all that is going on. i'll input on what i know about best. Puppy 2000 Sephia was featured in Sunday papers at $6995 and that's even without power steering. I'm sorry, but that white model looks really sharp on the lot & makes me wonder what kind of expense I would be facing if I had kept it much longer. Cars & the Stock Market you got to get out when you're flying high. Sometimes regretable, but always true. Supreme.
Sorry, the word I used was overall and I meant that to be the same as in general. What I am saying is if you take the quality of an entire region's output versus the quality of another region's output, you will find the Koreans are in last place. I hope that is somewhat clear. It is pretty late and I am having trouble expressing myself.
For proof, take a look at the JD Powers survey on initial quality.
It has been somewhat touched on that you can equip an Echo to where it is around 17k and Lng calls anyone who would spend that much for the Echo stupid presumably because you can buy a bigger car for that price.
Well, call me stupid. I like small cars and if I had a choice between spending 17k on a Camry or an Echo, I would take the Echo.
I doubt that I ever get a car any bigger than the current Corolla. I am most comfortable in that size car or smaller.
Only a moron would buy a used Sephia anywhere close to that rediculous price. Dealers put low-looking prices on cars hoping to attract some idiot who sees a number under $7000 and thinks its cheap, not realizing that for that same $7000 they can buy a much better used car.
What is more likely to happen, is the dealer will try to use that inflated figure as a starting point in their bargaining. In the end, they willbe lucky to get $6000 for it, very lucky.
Only a moron would buy a used Sephia anywhere close to that rediculous price. Dealers put low-looking prices on cars hoping to attract some idiot who sees a number under $7000 and thinks its cheap, not realizing that for that same $7000 they can buy a much better used car.
What is more likely to happen, is the dealer will try to use that inflated figure as a starting point in their bargaining. In the end, they willbe lucky to get $6000 for it, very lucky.
As for great deals on the low end, while the Saturn SL is rather crude, at $9999 with AC, BRAND NEW, it makes such cars as the Daewoo Lanos and Kia Rio a much harder sell. Add-in ultra-low APRs, and that brand new Saturn over a five year loan is cheaper than any $7000 used car.
My uncle is in the market for a new low-end economy car. He ended up narrowing it down to the Toyota Echo, Hyundai Accent, and Kia Rio. Right now, he drives a '97 Silverado, and has a round-trip commute of about 90 miles. He works in construction, and always had to haul around a bunch of tools, hence the pickup, but he recently got a new position where he doesn't have to lug stuff around anymore. He mainly just wants something that's cheap, reliable, and gets good gas mileage. His truck also has about 80,000 miles on it, and he wants to get something else to keep the miles of his truck.
He refuses to even look at a Neon, mainly because of a POS '81 Reliant and a not-much-better '88 LeBaron that he had. Probably unfair to judge Chrysler by those two, but I hear the Neon isn't the epitome of quality anyway ;-) And he flat-out refuses to even sit behind something that wears the Ford logo. Call him stubborn, I guess. I think someone must've tipped him off about the Cavalier as well.
Well, he ended up narrowing it down to the Accent and the Echo, because the Rio just didn't get very good gas mileage according to the EPA sticker. And then he found out that it would cost him about $400 a year MORE to insure the Accent, versus the Echo! Plus, the Echo still was rated higher for economy. So, it looks like we're gonna get an Echo in the family!
Only problem with it is that, once you start adding options, the price goes up really fast, as others have mentioned here. Basically all my uncle wanted was air conditioning, power steering, a tape deck, and ABS. However, it looks like you have to get some group package to get ABS, and that group package necessitates getting another group package, so suddenly this cheap little economy car jumped to over $15,000 (plus tax, tags, etc).
Majorthom, I can see where you're coming from, picking an Echo over a Camry. If you value size and room, a Camry might be a better choice, but if you want high gas mileage in a small package, the Echo is the way to go. Any other comments on the Echo though...have you had any problems with it, any dislikes, etc?
Andre, you might want to check out Edmunds' new TCO tool. The Echo has one of the lowest cost per mile figure around. According to Edmunds, it costs just twenty-eight cents a mile to operate.
I think your uncle should forgo the ABS. I haven't missed it. Why does he feel the need for it anyway? Leave out the ABS and you can get a two door Echo with an AM/FM radio with CD (not cassette), air conditioning, power steering, and a clock for $12,020. This is with a manual transmission. A four door with manual would be about $600 more I believe. A four door with automatic would be about another $1,000 on top of that so if your uncle is willing to forgo the ABS, he can get the rest he wants for about thirteen and a half.
I have a four door with manual and upgrade packages 1 and 2 along with the cold weather package plus some other items and it had an MSRP of $13,995. Mine is a 2001 and 2002 are a little bit higher.
My Echo has only been to the dealership for scheduled maintenance except for the upgrade to the child seat tether anchors and that was done at the same time as routine maintenance. It now has around 33,000 miles on it in about a year and a half of ownership and it is still just as fun to drive as the day I bought it.
Would you care to explain why you used your own fuel economy numbers results, but the EPA fuel economy numbers for the Echo when comparing the two?
And why did you give the price of your car BEFORE destination charges, but gave the price of the Echo AFTER destination charges when comparing the price of the two?
Lng, I quoted an outside source to show that how you view the interior [the Aerio being much roomier than the Echo] of the two cars (Echo and Aerio) are not born out by facts. Now, I am making the assumption that the areas where the two cars can be compared head to head were measured in the exact same manner.
In other words, if these figures were arrived at in exactly the same manner, the Aerio does have more head and leg room, but not enough to make what you said true.
For those who want to make comparisons between cars based on cost of ownership will want to check out Edmunds' new TCO tool.
Comments
Spectra maiden voyage to refueling showed 38+mpg.
I hope it was not a fluke. I did not try to top it off, but even if it had a little to go, the numbers are impressive to me. Supreme.
Good mileage numbers on the Spectra.
I know you guys are just dying to read it, but just be patient.
Tomorrow my roommate and I are going to a Hyundai dealer and test driving an Elantra and Elantra GT.
I'm not being an Elantra cheerleader here. I love my car, but its overall quality seems about on a par with most Japanese cars, but below the apparent quality in the new Corolla.
Too bad, I had a Suzuki 250 bike back in the early seventies and always wished the company well. The first generation Metro was like a 250cc bike, direct and fun to drive, although I'd hate to be hit in one.
Major, you actually got to drive one. Maybe my judgement would change if I actually took it out.
The salesman who helped us was a green kid whose attitude was really bad when he found out we wanted to simply test drive a couple of cars and weren't there to buy. Compare that to the attitude of the Internet Sales Manager at the Suzuki dealer. He bent over backwards for us even though he knew we were there just to test drive.
We wanted to test drive an Elantra GLS with automatic and an Elantra GT with manual, but somehow we ended up test driving an Elantra GT with automatic. They didn't have any GTs with manuals so the smart salesman would have found the most fully loaded GLS with automatic and had us test drive that, but the kid didn't.
The test drive was a very short five minute trip on city streets with the salesman in the back seat and the salesman was talking non-stop.
One good thing did come of the test drive. My roommate does not like hatchbacks, but when the salesman folded down the seats and she saw how much room there was, she reconsidered. An Elantra GT would be like getting the room of a wagon in a more sporty package and my roommate liked the room.
The Elantra is still on our list of future cars, but that dealership is definitely off the list of where to buy.
THE GOOD:
The ride
The room
Visibility
Seat position
The power
Trunk space
Fog lights on the GS
THE BAD:
Cheap feel (especially gear shift knob and boot)
Intrusive engine noise (present even when radio was on)
Seats not as comfortable as the Corolla or Echo
Non-locking fuel door
Fuel economy numbers
The price (too little for too much)
THE SMELL
THE UGLY?
Interior (although my roommate and I liked it)
Exterior (although my roommate and I liked it)
In the final analysis what bothered me the most was the cheap feel of the smallish gear shift knob and the rubber boot surrounding the lever along with the engine noise. At slightly over $15k [the price of a Corolla CE with automatic] for either an Aerio S with automatic or an Aerio GS with manual, Suzuki has this car overpriced.
3yr/36,000 mile warranty? Hyundai=5yr/60,000 miles for Less $$$.
Also, road side assistance from Suzuki is only 3 years vs 5 for Hyundai.
Yes, quality and Hyundai are starting to become a more popular theme vs Hyundai=junk, as in 1986 Excel(with Mitsu underpinnings, I might add).
You don't see Hyundai folding, like say Daewoo, and Kia would have folded if no one(hyundai )bought them(51% share).
Gt Elantra seats were a bit thin on the padding to me, on the seat cushion, but good back support.
Aerio had the Worst seats I have sat in of a ny car in the past 5 years.
Like I said before, if it were 1985, this car would have been a monstrous hit,,, it is 2002,though. Even Rio is almost on par of this Aerio thing, and it is the cheapest car in the USA.
The ECHO is quiet,fairly fast, ok seats, and even less than Aerio. What was Suzuki thinking?
I am guessing that they are hoping for a ton of AWD fans to stop by in Sept. They are releasing an AWD Aerio of some sorts, and it will be alittle less than Subaru's cheapest AWD car. They had better sell aton, because Hyundai is talking about an AWD Elantra later next yr, as an 04 model or 05.
It is like Suzuki built a car that no one asked for. There are more than enough other choices already.
2d tank of gas. 50/50 town & country driving recorded at 35mpg. not bad. Also, discovered that the front visors slide on the rod on which they rest thus extending the distance which they can shield against bright light. Never saw such a device in 40 years of driving. Kudos to Kia.
Supreme.
I have also seen cars where the visor slid on the rod, but in most cases, it was because something was wrong. Have you checked this out with the dealer if it is an intended feature or a case of where something broke?
In the original discussion, we discussed the Aerio, the Corolla, the Echo, and the Lancer as well as mentioning the Accent, the Rio, and the Civic. To bring people up to speed, I am going to quote some of what Lng had to say and respond to it. This way you don't have to switch back and forth between two threads. You will have the gist of what has been said in one thread. I am not trying to put words in Lng's mouth.
Well, better get started.
That may be the reason for other people, but not for me. It has to do with the quality exhibited by the makers of the various cars. As a whole, Suzuki's products compare to Kia (which served to keep Suzuki out of last place in the 2001 J. D. Powers survey on initial quality) and Hyundai better than they do to products from Toyota and Honda. Now, you cannot compare the individual results for the Aerio [since there are none yet] to the Accent and Rio, but you can compare the results for the Esteem [the closest thing to the Aerio in the Suzuki lineup] to the Accent and the Rio. The Accent has generally better results in the individual categories than the other two which tie in all categories except body and interior quality where the Esteem beats the Rio.
I cannot speak for others, but that is why I think of the Accent, Aerio, and the Rio as being in the same category.
Supreme claims that it only takes $8995 ($10,995 - $2,000 rebate) to buy a Spectra, but it takes $11,605 to buy a comparably equipped Echo. There are several problems with that claim.
The first is that the price he gives for the Spectra does not include destination charges. The price before the rebate is actually $11,490.
The second problem is that the price he gives for the Echo DOES include destination charges. Not exactly a level playing field to start with.
The third problem is that the MSRP I come up with for a comparably equipped Echo is $11,580.
The rebate on the Spectra is due to expire tomorrow so this means that there will only be $90 difference in price.
And just how much is the superior quality of the Echo and superior gas mileage worth?
In post #56 of that thread, Lng goes on to say, "Yea, it could use bigger wheels, but a lot of the new tall designs look like their wheels are too small (Lancer and Corolla come to mind). Just be glad the darn things have 15" wheels when not even 10 years ago they all came standard with dinky 13 inchers."
What I want to draw your attention to is Lng calling 13" tires "dinky." Why I want to draw your attention to that will become clearer in a later post. At this point, that is all I am saying and I am going on to the next post.
I think Lng needs to be real clear as to which version of the Aerio he is talking about. At the price of 14k, the only Aerio you can buy is the Aerio S sedan with a manual transmission. MSRP (after destination charges) comes out to $14,074. The S is the lower trim line. Is that the Aerio you were talking about above?
In my response, I, inadvertently, muddied the waters by bringing up the Aerio GS and saying that for around the same price point, I could get a Corolla CE with automatic transmission or another Echo, but one that is more fully loaded. An Aerio GS with manual transmission has a price of $15,074 (after destination charges). I did not finish my thought that the Aerio S with automatic transmission has the same price as the Aerio GS with manual.
If we want to stay discussing the 14k Aerio, the S with manual transmission, then for around that price I could buy a Corolla CE with manual transmission. Actually, the Corolla CE would be a little bit less. Now, it won't have power windows, but power windows are not something I like. The presence of power windows wouldn't be a deal killer, but I do subtract points from a car if I have to take them.
Oh, about what I expect in a car costing 14k, how about a manual remote fuel flap release? My Echo, which has a base price of about 11k, has one. The Corolla, in any trim level, has one. The fuel flaps on either Aerio sedans do not lock. This leaves your gas supply exposed to anyone who wants to siphon it.
He said, "I would take it anyday over the Echo's 105 horse engine and lack of power windows."
In my response in that thread, I pointed out that a 105 horse engine was what was in an Accent, not the Echo. Now, I want to point out the other error in Lng's statement.
You CAN get power windows in the Echo. It is part of Upgrade Package 3 which also includes keyless entry. To get Upgrade Package 3, you have to choose Upgrade Package 1 and Upgrade Package 2, but the total cost of a manual transmission Echo with all those packages and floor mats would be $14,111 (after destination charges) or about $39 more than an Aerio S with manual transmission. And the Echo has an under the passenger seat storage tray while the Aerio S doesn't. And the savings in fuel cost by buying the Aerio will wipe out that $39 difference pretty quickly.
Plus the Echo is likely to be of higher quality and more reliable.
My response is simple and one word, How?
He said, "As for me, I would never buy the Echo because .....it looks like a cheap economy car with dinky wheels."
This response coupled with Lng calling 13" wheels dinky led me to point out that the wheels on my Echo were bigger than the wheels on his Accent. His Accent came standard with "dinky" 13 inch wheels.
Something I did not point out over in the Suzuki thread, but the 14k Aerio that Lng made reference to comes with the same size wheels as my Echo. Both come with 14" steel wheels as standard. The Echo's can be upgraded to 14" alloy, but an Aerio owner has to go the aftermarket route to get 14" alloy.
Lng, do you think the Aerio S has dinky wheels?
Wheelbase (in) 97.6/93.3
Length (in) 171.3/163.2
Width (in) 66.5(Aerio S) 67.7 (Aerio GS)/65.4
Height (in) 60.8/59.4
Now the advantage in exterior dimensions for the Aerio does translate to a larger interior volume and perhaps this is what Lng meant by the Echo not being "near as roomy as the Aerio."
Interior volume (cu ft) 104.7/87.4
But does that distinct advantage in interior volume translate to more head or leg room? Those are the only two areas that I can compare since those are the only two areas that the Aerio brochures mentions while the Echo talks about those areas plus shoulder room and hip room.
Headrom f/r (in) 40.6 & 37.6/39.9 & 37.6
Legroom f/r (in) 41.4 & 36.0/41.1 & 35.2
If head and leg room were what Lng was referring to, I don't see that the Aerio is that much [more] roomy than the Echo.
In that same sentence, Lng goes on to repeat his erroneous statement that the Echo "doesn't offer power windows (a must have on my next car)." Keep that in mind for future reference.
Lng, aren't you glad that you don't have to scratch the Echo off your list due to lack of power windows? ; )
Please note how muddy Lng makes the water at this point. The fact is that the CE DOES come with a CD player STANDARD. Also, for around the price of a Aerio GS with manual, I can get a Corolla CE with power locks and cruise control. So much for not getting power something. Plus, the CE is not even available with fog lamps, spoiler or ground effects package. That would be the Corolla S. And it is possible to equip a Corolla S to where it costs 3k more than an Aerio, but that would be the Aerio S which does not have fog lamps, a spoiler, or alloy wheels.
The answer for me is no. I did not think of the Suzuki in the same light as Korean cars before I examined where Suzuki's level of initial quality is. The fact is that Suzuki is barely better than Kia and Hyundai is better than Suzuki.
I don't really judge a car company based on where it is from. I look at each car company individually. Right now, it is just easier (and accurate) to say that, overall, Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese, American, or European cars.
At that point, I checked Lng's profile and I saw that he owns a Lancer OZ which led me to say that he shouldn't throw stones. I will explain why in a little while.
Lng's response to my bringing up the Lancer and, previously, his Accent led Lng to ask in post #63, "Now, wait a second. How did my 2 cars get pulled into this discussion?"
Well, Lng, its like this, if my Echo is fair game (and I know I brought the Echo up first) then your choice of wheels should be fair game too. And you mentioned the Accent and Lancer previously.
Remember how I pointed out to Lng that the Accent's wheels are smaller than the wheels on my Echo. Well, his response was, "Yes, I criticized the wheel size of the Echo (but it more had to do with the overall styling of the car). Got news for you, Lng, the Aerio S has the same styling and the same 14" wheels.
Lng goes on to say, "By the way, your Echo's 14" tires have the same width as my 13" tires...so there really isn't much of a difference."
But the thin tires on those 14" wheels of the Echo serves a purpose, that of saving on fuel. Compare the 34/41 fuel numbers of the Echo in manual with the 26/33 fuel numbers of the Aerio or the 28/36 fuel numbers of the Accent with the 1.5L engine. Looks like the 13" wheels on the Accent are just there to hold down the price.
Lng says, "The Lancer was built to play in the 14k to 17k class and it feels, looks, and performs like a car in that price range should......I'd gladly take the good low end torque and effortless acceleration of the Lancer and the Aerio over the high winding torqueless Echo."
Come again? Shall we let some reality in here? I don't know the torque curve of the Aerio, the Lancer or the Echo and I don't know the amount of peak torque for the Aerio although I do know that it makes it at 3,000 rpm. The Echo makes its peak torque of 105 lb-ft at 4,000 rpm while the Lancer makes its peak torque of 130 lb-ft at 4,250 rpm or 250 rpm higher than the Echo.
How should a car in the 14k to 17k perform? Evidently Lng thinks cars in this class should be slower than the Echo or at least the Lancer should.
Motor Trend says the 2000 Echo sedan will do 0 to 60 in 8.4 seconds and the quarter mile in 16.50 seconds while the 2002 Lancer OZ edition will do 0 to 60 in 8.8 seconds and the quarter mile in 16.60 seconds. I had to use the numbers for the 2000 Echo since Motor Trend was the only source that tested both vehicles.
My problem with anyone buying an OZ is that it is basically a Lancer ES with some visual touches thrown in. The Lancer OZ has an MSRP of $16,142 while the Lancer ES has an MSRP of $14,456. Tell me Lng, did that almost $1,700 difference get you a bigger engine?
Well, I DON'T like the look of the Corolla S so that is why I compared the Corolla CE to the Aerio GS. Since you think it is all right to compare cars the way you want to, you must agree that it is fair to compare cars the way I want to.
And you mention getting a CD/Cassette combo for the Corolla S. Why? You say you want to compare cars with the same equipment and the Aerio GS does NOT come with a CD/Cassette combo. If you were upgrading to that combo on the Corolla to get the six speakers, save yourself $100 and get the deluxe CD which comes with six speakers. Also the "six" speakers on the Aerio GS are actually four speakers and two tweeters.
And how much does it cost to get chrome interior trim on the Aerio GS that comes standard with the Corolla S?
My point is that the Corolla costs more than the Aerio because of more than the options.
Any response, Lng?
As for my Lancer OZ, I definitely think the extra money (which by the way is only $1300, not $1700) was worth it for the change in appearance. I think the regular Lancer is a rather dowdy looking car. The addition of the ground effects, spoiler, 5 spoke wheels, white faced gauges, black cloth, and aluminum trim really makes a difference on this car. It makes it look sporty and more substantial. Like I said, some don't like the sporty look, but I do. Lastly, there is no comparison between the Echo's engine and the Lancer or the Aerio. Remember, you are trying to compare a diminutive 1.5 liter engine to two torque rich 2.0 liters. There is simply no comparison to bigger engine torque. Horsepower? 108 compared to 120 and 141. Torque? 105 compared to 130 and 135. Which do you think will be more relaxed driving around town (especially when hooked up to an auto, the more popular tranny choice)? It certainly isn't going to be the Echo. Smaller engines you have to push more to get their max power. If you knew anything about the Lancer, you would know that it has a low final drive ratio and its cam profile was tuned for good low end torque, which makes it fast off the line and effortlessly gain speed without revving the engine high (my automatic can even chirp its tires off the line, something that my 97 Altima with 150 horses couldn't do). Yes, the extra weight and lower revving nature of the Lancer makes it slightly slower when pushed to its maximum, but we are talking about a very small difference (and its silly to even compare their acceleration; make the Echo as heavy and big as the Lancer or Aerio, and then we will talk). I can guarantee that the automatic Lancer would take the lead when you sap the Echo with an automatic. Not to mention that the Lancer and Aerio will be faster and feel faster when driven in a normal fashion (ie. regular no going over 3k rpms city driving; in other words, the engines have more power available in the rev range that is more commonly used). And lets not even go into which cars feel more substantial and solid on the road (the benfits of bigger, heavier cars). It's also silly to try and compare fuel economy numbers. Of course the Echo would get better mileage, it does have a much smaller engine and does weigh quite a bit less. Is that worth dealing with its hideous exterior, funky interior, and cheap look and feel of the interior? Definitely not for me. I am man enough to admit that the Echo does now offer power windows, but that must be a new option, because it was not offered last year. I don't pay attention to the car because it simply isn't in the same class of cars as the Lancer, Aerio, Elantra, etc. You are trying to compare a bargain basement subcompact economy car to the higher class of compacts, which I guess you sort of can because a top-of-the-line Echo costs as much as the base versions of those cars. However, the Echo is seriously outclassed once it gets to that price range and I doubt few shopping for a 14-16k car would compare the Echo to the larger cars like the Civic, Lancer, etc. It just doesn't compare well. It compares well to the bottom rung cars like the Accent and Rio, but even then its price is a bit too high.
One last thing. A remote fuel door is a deal killer for you?? LOLOLOL If someone really wants your gas, they can stick a screw driver into the crack and rip it right open. I mean come on! I have never ever worried about someone stealing gas from my car. Sounds like someone is still living in the past mannnnnn (say it with an obnoxious hippie accent). In fact, the release is sometimes a nuisance because I exited the car and forgot to use it, thus necessitating me to reopen the door and lean down to pull it, whereas I could have just walked to the door and fliped it open with less effort. Oh, and I don't think its ok to compare cars in whatever way you feel like. I had a problem with you comparing a BASE Corolla to a fully equipped Aerio GS. To give a more fair comparison on price, you need to equip the cars the same (which would be the Corolla CE to the Aerio S, with additions to the Corolla to compensate for the Aerio's higher standard equipment list). That's why I chose to compare the Corolla S to the Aerio GS. They compare almost exactly. I accidentally added the Cd/cassette option to the Corolla because it looked like it had a cassette player in the online pic of the Aerio. I now realize that it was a blank spot with the words CD changer on it. By the way, do you honestly think the "6 speaker" arrangement on the Corolla is anything but adding 2 extra tweeters?? Just about every car that claims to have 6 speakers in reality has 4 full range speakers and 2 separate tweeters, so that was a low blow to the Aerio. Anything else I need to explain? For someone who has a propensity to pick up the slightest errors, you sure don't understand things very well yourself and make plenty of them as well. And sorry, I can't resist this cheap spot. Notice how long my post is? All you had to do was use the back button and the copy and paste buttons after resigning in to keep from losing the first long post
The Echo remains the king of the high mileage commuter vehicles tho.For a person who uses a car for business and puts 30-40 thousand miles a year it's hard to beat-I mean 40 mpg.The only drawback is it's size and weight.I just prefer a little larger car.
"Right now, it is just easier (and accurate) to say that, overall, Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese, American, or European cars."
As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Well, there you go again!" I'd like to know what facts you have (and we all know you are a master of facts) to substatiate your claim that Korean cars are not the equal of American cars. I know you follow Consumer Reports, so here's their opinion on American cars vs. Korean cars from the April 2002 Auto Issue:
Small Sedans: Focus ZTS is top ranked; Hyundai Elantra GLS tops all other American small cars in the group. Daewoo Nubria tops Saturn SL2, Cavalier, and Sunfire (see note below on Daewoo). Kia Spectra (a car CR has not even driven) is ranked last in the group.
Family Sedans: Hyundai Sonata LX tops all American cars in the group. Daewoo Leganza is ranked last. (But Daewoo is dead, Jim, so it's a little moot).
Small SUVs: Hyundai Santa Fe GLS tops all American SUVs in the group. Kia Sportage is ranked last.
These were the only categories that included both Korean and American cars. In two of those categories, a Korean vehicle topped all American vehicles. In another, a Korean vehicle topped all but one American vehicle.
Another data point: a few months ago, C/D compared mid-sized V6 sedans. A Korean car, the Hyundai XG350, topped all American vehicles in the test.
Another data point: J.D. Power (www.jdpower.com) ranks the Ford Focus (CR's top pick for Small Sedans) dead even with Elantra GLS in every category except Long-Term Reliability (they have no data for the Focus).
I look forward to your dozen or so posts pointing out why Korean cars are not the equal of American cars. ;-) I won't delve into the comment that Korean cars are not the equal of Japanese cars (I agree, for some of the Japanese makes) or European cars (not a fair comparison, IMO, given the relative price points of European cars sold in the U.S., and Korean cars).
I did not say that the lack of a fuel flap with remote release was a deal killer. I said that I expected one at the price point of the Aerio.
I find the Echo to be very comfortable to drive around town and I have squealed the tires many, many times without meaning to.
Backy, you missed or ignored the presence of the words "in general" in my statement about the quality of Korean, American, European, and Japanese cars. I am still at work, but off the clock so I don't have access to my research material to back up my statement. I probably won't be on again until sometime Thursday so I hope you can wait.
Back to Lng, what did you think about the gear shift knob? In the Aerio GS, it seems very small and I felt I was grasping a twig. Also, I was really disappointed in the rubber sleeve around the shifter. Is it this way in the SX?
Well, take care all. It is almost 3am and I need to get home and get some sleep.
Oh, on Thursday, you can also look forward to a twelve part posting comparing the Echo and the Spectra. Just kidding.
"
OK, OK we get the picture you didn't like the carin any way shape or form, Jeez!
Personally I didn't like the Aerio because it felt cheap to me, I don't like the styling and I hate digital dashbords.
Short and sweet baby!
Majorthomecho: All the cars the dealer had (which was a whopping 3) had automatics. They looked just like any other auto shifter to me. I'm hoping the manual shifter isn't too tall looking, like in a pickup. If the knob bugs you, you can always replace it with a nice aftermarket leather one.
BTW, I didn't miss or ignore the presence of the words "in general" in your post, because those words weren't there.
to comment on all that is going on. i'll input on what i know about best. Puppy 2000 Sephia was featured in Sunday papers at $6995 and that's even without power steering. I'm sorry, but that white model looks really sharp on the lot & makes me wonder what kind of expense I would be facing if I had kept it much longer. Cars & the Stock Market you got to get out when you're flying high.
Sometimes regretable, but always true. Supreme.
For proof, take a look at the JD Powers survey on initial quality.
Well, call me stupid. I like small cars and if I had a choice between spending 17k on a Camry or an Echo, I would take the Echo.
I doubt that I ever get a car any bigger than the current Corolla. I am most comfortable in that size car or smaller.
What is more likely to happen, is the dealer will try to use that inflated figure as a starting point in their bargaining. In the end, they willbe lucky to get $6000 for it, very lucky.
What is more likely to happen, is the dealer will try to use that inflated figure as a starting point in their bargaining. In the end, they willbe lucky to get $6000 for it, very lucky.
As for great deals on the low end, while the Saturn SL is rather crude, at $9999 with AC, BRAND NEW, it makes such cars as the Daewoo Lanos and Kia Rio a much harder sell. Add-in ultra-low APRs, and that brand new Saturn over a five year loan is cheaper than any $7000 used car.
He refuses to even look at a Neon, mainly because of a POS '81 Reliant and a not-much-better '88 LeBaron that he had. Probably unfair to judge Chrysler by those two, but I hear the Neon isn't the epitome of quality anyway ;-) And he flat-out refuses to even sit behind something that wears the Ford logo. Call him stubborn, I guess. I think someone must've tipped him off about the Cavalier as well.
Well, he ended up narrowing it down to the Accent and the Echo, because the Rio just didn't get very good gas mileage according to the EPA sticker. And then he found out that it would cost him about $400 a year MORE to insure the Accent, versus the Echo! Plus, the Echo still was rated higher for economy. So, it looks like we're gonna get an Echo in the family!
Only problem with it is that, once you start adding options, the price goes up really fast, as others have mentioned here. Basically all my uncle wanted was air conditioning, power steering, a tape deck, and ABS. However, it looks like you have to get some group package to get ABS, and that group package necessitates getting another group package, so suddenly this cheap little economy car jumped to over $15,000 (plus tax, tags, etc).
Majorthom, I can see where you're coming from, picking an Echo over a Camry. If you value size and room, a Camry might be a better choice, but if you want high gas mileage in a small package, the Echo is the way to go. Any other comments on the Echo though...have you had any problems with it, any dislikes, etc?
I think your uncle should forgo the ABS. I haven't missed it. Why does he feel the need for it anyway? Leave out the ABS and you can get a two door Echo with an AM/FM radio with CD (not cassette), air conditioning, power steering, and a clock for $12,020. This is with a manual transmission. A four door with manual would be about $600 more I believe. A four door with automatic would be about another $1,000 on top of that so if your uncle is willing to forgo the ABS, he can get the rest he wants for about thirteen and a half.
I have a four door with manual and upgrade packages 1 and 2 along with the cold weather package plus some other items and it had an MSRP of $13,995. Mine is a 2001 and 2002 are a little bit higher.
My Echo has only been to the dealership for scheduled maintenance except for the upgrade to the child seat tether anchors and that was done at the same time as routine maintenance. It now has around 33,000 miles on it in about a year and a half of ownership and it is still just as fun to drive as the day I bought it.
No problems and no dislikes to report.
And why did you give the price of your car BEFORE destination charges, but gave the price of the Echo AFTER destination charges when comparing the price of the two?
In other words, if these figures were arrived at in exactly the same manner, the Aerio does have more head and leg room, but not enough to make what you said true.
For those who want to make comparisons between cars based on cost of ownership will want to check out Edmunds' new TCO tool.