Low End Sedans (under $16k)

backy

dunworth is correct, I was referring to the Corolla's rotten egg smell. I've noticed several owners complaining about it on the Edmunds.com Toyota Corolla board, but I didn't think much of it until I drove a '03 Corolla rental with 10k miles on it last week. What a stench! We had to open the windows (which in Miami is not something you want to do much of the time). Other than that, and the Corolla's poor driving position for medium-to-tall drivers (not a factor in the Initial Quality survey I'm sure), the Corolla is a fine small car and I can see how it would rate highly in the JD Powers survey.

P.S. Unlike the Corolla's smell, Hyundai's trademark new car scent, caused by a protective sealant, wears off after a couple of weeks.

dunworth

In Toronto they are giving these things away. CDN$10995 (US$ 7700) for a two door GS with the 90 hp motor. Cash price 5 speed, no ac plus freight and taxes. Such a deal

If I was in the market for a cheaper (lower price not quality) car this is what I would buy. I have driven every generation of this car and each one is better. Just drove a '03 Accent four door with the bigger motor. Nicely equipped (ac pw, pl, but 5 speed) for just over CDN$ 19 K /US $ 13K out the door (based on MSRP)plus low financing.

dinu01

I agree, it's a great deal.

On HyundaiCanada.com they list the GS at 12.395 (MT, no A/C). Where did you see the deal at $11.000?

Thanx!
Dinu

dunworth

I saw it in the local paper, the Toronto Star. I did not see too many really basic ones on the lot of the local dealer but I have previously owned two basic Hyundais and know that the dealer can get them.

Are you in Toronto as well (the flag is not CDN)?

majorthomecho

I consider myself a tall driver being that I am six feet tall. I am also long legged and I did not find the driving position of the Corolla to be uncomfortable.

If the rotten egg smell is related to the gas used and not something permanent in the car or added by the car maker, do you think it fair to blame the car maker? I don't.

Dinu, I was not insulted. I am just pointing out where your argument fell apart by using an another example. Your argument did not address the facts of the situation.

And while you would hope that a car would be defect free during the first ninety days, many aren't.

dinu01

I test drove a 2000 GSi MT in 2000 and I was pleasantly surprised with the car - better interior than GM, OK styling, peppy engine. If it came with a sliding moonroof (not the tilt-only one), the choice would be much simper (value for the $). I will be in the market for a car (new or used) in the next few months (December).

I am thinking of either:

1. Buy a used under $4000 (1990-1993) Integra, Protege or Maxima and keep it for the winter, then buy a Mazda6 or Mazda3

or

2. Buy a new GSi (if I can find a good deal on a MT w/AC) and keep it for the long haul.

The first option is more appealing since I like the Mazda6 A LOT, but I don't wanna waste all my $ (I'm 22) on a car (once I get a new M6 or M3). The second option would see me spend a bit less on the car, but still pay high insurance on a new vehicle. So in the next few months I have to play with numbers and see what makes sense financially. But in the meantime I wanna get a feel for the market as far as the Accent GSi, M6 and M3 are concerned.

I have a copy of Wheels here, so I'll check it out.

Thanx again!
Dinu

backy

Major, I'm glad the Corolla's driving position is comfortable for you. I'm only 5'10" and it is not for me, nor is it for a number of people who have posted on this topic in the Toyota Corolla board and for some reviewers who have noticed the problem. It's a shame, too, because the Corolla is a very good small car otherwise, one that I would consider owning were it not for the seating issue and the rotten-egg smell. That, too, has been mentioned many times in the Corolla board--enough to lead me to believe that it's the car, not the gas. A recent post (today I think) mentioned that the problem is lessened or even eliminated by low-sulfur gas. That kind of gas is available in some areas, such as California, but not everywhere (not in my area, for example). I don't see this kind of problem on other small-car boards, either, which again points to the car instead of the gas.

lngtonge18

I find it interesting that no one had a comment regarding the Mitsubishi Lancer tying with a Toyota for second place in initial quality. Being that so many people love to claim Mitsubishi is a second rate Japanese car with average quality, I would have thought people would have been shocked by the rating and had something to say. Even though it is just initial quality, a car that does well in that test tends to do well in the longer term tests as well.

dunworth

Yes good point about the Lancer. I really liked this car but it has a few major strikes against it for me and my family.

Good points: The car felt really well put together. It just oozes quality and solidity. It drives very well and the ride is excellent. The whole car is heavier than my Civic or Corolla. I almost bought the Lancer the first time I saw a light gold metallic ES with the tan interior. Best fake wood south of a Jaguar.

Bad points: In Canada, it is a new brand with very few dealers as yet. I think service quality will not be an issue like in the US because the guy who set up Mitsu, also set up Saturn in Canada. Its worst point is terrible gas mileage - the worst in its class outside of a Kia Sephia. My dad's '03 Accord get better mileage even though it is a larger, heavier and more powerful car. Finally, the Mitsu does not have full size rear head rests like my cars - a big problem since I always have two people in the back.

Other than that the car is perfect!

lngtonge18

I will admit, Honda and Toyota have always been the leaders in fuel economy and the Lancer's rated mileage is below average compared to them. However, the Lancer is comparable in fuel economy to a number of large engine economy sedans. The Lancer automatic is rated at 24/31. Protege is rated at 25/30. Saturn Ion is rated at 24/32. The difference is quite neglible until you look at the Civic and Corolla with their smaller engines and higher revving nature. I can say that the Lancer has been a pleasant surprise in its real world fuel efficiency. My automatic 02 Lancer after it broke in consistently averages 26-27 mpg in pure stop and go city traffic and has achieved 33 mpg on the highway at 75 mph with the AC on. I can't say the same of my 03 Suzuki Aerio 5 speed (26/32), which averaged a consistent 27-28 mpg in the city and could only muster 29.5 on the highway. I take the epa numbers with a grain of salt, especially when I see some hybrid Civic owners complaining of mileage well below the regular Civic. I guess comparing the sticker numbers with those on your cars I could see the disappointment, but honestly, it's no worse than any other economy sedan with a large high torque engine.

On a side note, I would like to let you know that the solid, well put together feel you noted in your test drive sticks around. My Lancer has 23,000 flawless miles on it. Not one single rattle, squeak, material flaw, or repair. I have been very impressed and satisifed with the quality of this car. And after talking with a few other owners in person, they have had the same experience as me.

backy

I always thought the Lancer got a bad rap in some reviews. I've driven a few as rentals and I liked them--decent pickup for an automatic, roomy back seat, good visibility, good driving position. And lately the prices are coming down at my local dealers, starting at under $11k. That's a good deal for a well-made small car.

iluvmysephia1

mean than the Evo would also receive good driving and build-quality marks? Just wondering...Jackie Chan has a contract with Mitsubishi to use Evo's in his movies and I saw them doing some filming and stunts with those cars. Kind of an interesting looking little sports car AND it's a 4-door. Huh!

dunworth

In your quest for a car, do not forget the Lancer which can have some deals. There are now a number of Mitsu dealerships in the Toronto area.I think many of us agree that the Lancer is one of the most underrated small cars on the market.

Also there are deals on the new Aerio, something like C$13,995 - sedan or wagon. The car drives well but is quirky looking with a small dealer body.

dinu01

I never drove a Lancer, but after reaading the C+D EVO-vs-STi comparo, an EVO would be nice.

Back to reality, the summer is starting and there's always time for a test drive. Thanx for the suggestion!

I sat in an Aerio at the auto show in February and I couldn't live with either sedan or wagon. Felt way too cheap inside and out, cheaper than the Accent. ANd the driving position felt like I was in a minivan - too high. I like lower cars since it aids cornering.

Dinu

nippononly

don't abandon Mazda - it needs you! The 6 hatchback is calling your name!

Have they released an idea of pricing for the '3' yet?

dinu01

Who said I was?

I still like the Protege over any other small car and the 6 is a BLAST to drive!!!

When the times comes, I'll obviously drive all Mazdas first.

No pricing on the M3 yet. That's THE car I'm REALLY interested in - the 6 is too much $ for now.

Dinu

backy

I noticed that Mazda has recently upped the powertrain warranty on Proteges and Pro5s to 7 years and 100,000 miles. That's after increasing the bumper-to-bumper warranty to 4 years/50,000 miles for '03 models. So Mazda has followed in the path of Suzuki, Ford (Focus), and DC in beefing up powertrain warranties, taking a page from the Hyundai and Kia warranty book. With that kind of competition, it may be difficult for Hyundai and Kia to cut back on their warranty anytime soon. Also makes me wonder how GM and other companies will respond. Many still offer a paltry 3/36 warranty.

This move by Mazda also proves that there are other reasons carmakers put long warranties on their cars besides trying to overcome a history of poor reliability. That is the usual reason people give as to why Hyundai and Kia offer their long warranty. The Protege and Pro5 have an excellent reliability record, as do Mazdas in general (not including rebadged Fords). This seems more a tactic to compete better with the likes of Focus, Neon, Aerio, and Elantra, and also to give the Pro another advantage over Civic and Corolla. I wonder if the long warranty will stay put for the Mazda3?

nippononly

after all, Toyota and Nissan have had 60K warranties for a long time now. As car design and production becomes more and more precise, and mainly as powertrain operation becomes more computer-controlled, all the carmakers should be able to increase their standard powertrain warranties. Anyone who is still at 3/36 is laggard, IMO.

I would like to see 4/50 become standard as b-to-b, as well, like Mazda's.

For carmakers with a premium brand, it is a little tricker to increase warranty length too much, as they want their premium-brand warranties to remain longer than on their "regular" brand vehicles.

I think it would be seriously unwise for Hyundai or Kia to cut back on that lengthy warranty any time in the next few years.

lngtonge18

Mitsubishi now offers a 7 year/100k limited powertrain warranty. This is definitely getting interesting....

nippononly

feel much like a war to me, because it has happened fairly slowly, but there ARE a significant number of companies now offering 100K powertrain warranties...and then there is Isuzu, which still offers 120K, right?

I wonder if that will kill them on the rebadged Trailblazer (what is it called, the Ascender?)...

Honda is still on the short end, with the Ford and GM models (Focus excepted) at 36K for powertrain...they really should bring that up.

lngtonge18

Actually, Isuzu has decreased their powertrain warranty to 7 year/75k. Hmm...maybe in response to the GM vehicles joining the lineup?

backy

Edmunds.com mentioned Honda's skimpy warranty even as it named the Civic EX the winner of its latest small car comparo, ekeing out a win over the Elantra GLS by less than half a point. That the Civic EX won is not a surprise; it's a fine small car--and at $18.5K it should be. Nor is the Elantra's 2nd-place finish surprising to me, since it's solid all-around and got a lot of points for value. The real surprise to me was the poor showing of the Corolla LE, taking 5th behind Civic, Elantra, Protege ES, and Sentra LE. Rating the Sentra over the Corolla just doesn't make sense to me. The Sentra had a much more powerful engine but not much else going for it. To me, the Sentra should be way down the list if only because it has an unusable back seat, unforgivable these days for a 4-door sedan in this class. The Lancer, Aerio, and Ion brought up the rear, which is not surprising, although I would rate the Lancer ahead of the Sentra.

An inconsistency of the car selections is puzzling. They chose the top lines of all cars (if you don't include specialty models like the Civic Si, Lancer OZ, Mazdaspeed, and Sentra SE-R) except for the Elantra and the Ion. Then they put only one option on the Elantra, an automatic. Why didn't they test the GT sedan with an option package to make it more comparable in features (and closer in price) to the other cars they tested? And the Ion3? If they really wanted to test "economy" sedans, why didn't they test the low or mid-line versions of all the models, instead of mostly high-end models?

nippononly

with my priorities, what stands out in this class are civic and corolla for significantly better fuel economy than the rest. Some of the pack use (relatively) large torquey engines, so you get something for the fuel economy you lose, but some just have mediocre (for this class) fuel economy with small engines and midpack power and torque.

Civic and corolla are the only two that will get you 40 mpg on the highway if you have a mindset to avoid a leadfoot.

I hate when comparo testers do not compare apples to apples, as it appears they may not have done with this one at edmunds. I like CR because they actually buy the vehicles, and so can get comparable trim levels on all cars they compare. Not to mention they don't ALWAYS test the very top trim, loaded up with features. The average buyer does not buy this car, but rather the midgrade trim with the "standard" package.

ingtonge: Isuzu might get itself in trouble even at a 75K warranty duration with the rebadged GM vehicles! :-)

backy

If that's your primary buying criteria, why not go all the way and get an ECHO, or a Golfetta TDI, or a hybrid? I don't drive that many miles a year, so 5 extra mpg on the highway won't help me all that much, maybe $50 less on gas per year. But a hybrid that gets 50+ mpg in city driving and is priced reasonably (like the '04 mid-sized Prius perhaps), that might be the ticket.

nippononly

in my case I got the Matrix, corolla's big brother...my purchase needed to be bigger than an echo and besides I don't like the look. But if you look at the stand-outs in this class, civic/corolla get the mpg prize, while for raw acceleration and power sentra seems to do best. The others are kind of all midpack, with minor differences.

Comparos can also be misleading. I was bopping around Edmunds today with some time to kill, and read their comparo of six 4-door hatches, including Matrix. In the narrative for Matrix, they say it has suspension that quickly tells you "slow down!" and weak tires, yet if you go and look at the hard numbers for the slalom, Matrix ranked second by 0.3 seconds to the Pro5, and nothing else in the test was even close! So clearly the handling can't be all that bad.

Or maybe the problem here was that too much "seat of the pants" preferences made it into the final results, at the expense of the true relative performance of the cars.

It knocked my socks off to see the Matrix pull number one in that comparo - I thought for sure they would like the Pro5 more for its sharper handling. Instead, I guess they prioritized utility, but it goes to show my point - comparo results are not the final word, end of story. They must be taken in the context of what was prioritized.

backy

And every review has its bias, or priorities. With Edmunds it was price, with C/D it's handling, with CR it's safe braking/handling, mpg, etc.

masked

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some great car I forgot about. ;-)

I'm looking for a late 90's-to-new model sedan (of course, I would go mid-90's if I could find something with low miles) that is sporty and "torquey" (or however you're supposed to spell that). My price range is basically up to 13k.

I was thinking Maximas with the V6 and late-model Passats, cause I've heard post 98 they are very good.

Is there anything I'm missing here? Thanks.

backy

Since this is the "Low End Cars" board, with a focus on new cars, I'll stick to that area. For something sporty, torquey, and under 13k, you should check out the Elantra GT. With the current $1500 rebate plus discounts off list, you can get one under $13k if you don't get many options. But it comes well equipped even in base form. With the 5-speed, it's a decent performer, about 8.4 secs 0-60, and good torque for a 2-liter engine. Plus you get a long new-car warranty, which you won't get with a used Maxima or Passat.

If you go with the Passat I'd stick to the '98+ models if I were you, since the redesign that year made a much better can than its predecessor.

majorthomecho

Where has everyone gone? No posts since 6/15.

Anyway, I am going to give myself two treats on Wednesday (July 2nd). I am going to to the first showing of T3, but more importantly (and auto related), I am going to check out the SRT-4. I am not planning on doing any high speed stunts, but rather check out how well the seat fits me and how the car behaves in city driving. So much has been made of its higher speed performance that the low speed performance has been neglected. If I get it the SRT-4 will not be taking the place of the Echo, but rather join it.

My roommate and I have seen Italian Job twice and she is warming up to the idea of a Mini Cooper. You can probably guess which model I will be suggesting she look at the most.

Well, it is time for me to get ready for work.

backy

And when was the last time YOU posted here? Help us out a little, then complain about no posts! 8^)

Anything to report on the low-end cars front, Major? When last we heard from you, I think you were looking for a replacement for the ECHO--an Aerio I think. Sounds like you've changed that plan. Why get rid of a perfectly good ECHO, eh?

majorthomecho

At least I have the excuse of having a bum computer at home for the reason I don't post much. And I usually don't get to work with enough time to go to the break room and post. And by the time I get done working, I just want to go home.

As for cars, plans change. Lots of different cars are on my list to sit next to the Echo. I was not able to go take the test drive of the SRT-4 like I wanted and I was not able to go see T3 yet.

The Echo is getting new shoes (i.e., tires) on Wednesday so hopefully the movie and test drive can be done on Tuesday.

majorthomecho

Motor Trend had an article about the Scion cars and in it, they asked why someone would buy an Echo (instead of a Scion) when the Scions are in nationwide release.

Well, how about the fact that the Echo is the only one of the three available as a sedan or coupe?

How about the superior fuel economy numbers for the Echo?

Comparing apples to apples (a manual Echo with the manual Scion Xa):

How about the Echo having a better 0 to 60 time?

How about the Echo having a better quarter-mile time?

How about the Echo having a better slalom course speed?

How about the Echo having a better 60 to 0 stopping distance?

Even after the Scions are available nationwide, there will still be many reasons to pick the Echo over them.

backy

Plus the fact that you can get an ECHO, with minimal options, for less than a Scion. If you want a more loaded car, however, then the Scion becomes the better value.

majorthomecho

Also, the Echo has a better weight to horsepower ratio which, of course, is why the Echo has better performance numbers.

majorthomecho

I got an invitation to GM's Auto Show In Motion and I have RSVPd for 9am a week from today (Friday).

This is an all day event where you can test drive any GM vehicle and then test drive a comparable car from a competitor.

Two cars that I have told GM that I really want to test drive are the H2 and a Vette. The test drives will be on car specific test courses. An offroad course for the H2 and an autocross course for the Vette.

I have no idea what I will (or IF I will) test drive something to compare the H2 to, but I hope they have a Dodge Viper to compare the Vette with.

I will let you know how the test drives go.

backy

Maybe that will be the competitor for the H2.

Last time I checked, the H2 and Corvette weren't exactly Low-End Cars, though.

majorthomecho

I consider myself to be friendly towards you guys and I wanted to share this piece of news with you.

Ah, who am I kidding? I wanted to brag.

But Backy, if the show comes to St. Louis and you get an invitation, you are more than welcome to go there and test drive only low end cars. ; )~

backy

And then I would be interested in driving GM's new low-end cars, since I won't be buying an H2 or a Corvette anytime soon (read "never"). I don't have time to test drive cars I have no intention of ever buying. The most exotic GM cars I would be interested in driving/owning would be the Saab 9-3 and maybe the CTS, if I could get over its strange styling. I'm more curious as to how good those new rebadged Daewoo models are, and how the all-new '04 Malibu (almost low-end, but not with the new, big V6 I'm sure) and redesigned Cavalier ('05?) will stack up--whether GM is finally getting serious about low-end cars. I had to laugh at their recent ads that apologized for building crummy cars in the past and claiming that their current cars are much better--great designs, highest quality and all that. Riiiiight.

Actually I'm glad you're taking full advantage of the car show to drive some exotica. I remember the last time you had the opportunity to drive (rent) any car you wanted, I think you said you were going to rent a Corolla. So have fun with the 'vette and Humvee. Watch out for those speed bumps (i.e. ECHOes, Accents, Rios) when driving the H2.

majorthomecho

I thought you were the one in St. Louis. Was I wrong or did you move? Either way, the twin cities is a nice area of the country. Enjoyed my weekend up there immensely.

Speaking of test drives, I just got done test driving the SRT-4. Very fun car to drive. I did not "stretch its legs," but the sales manager did and Dodge has done a nice job of reducing turbo lag.

It was very well mannered at low speeds and rode very nicely. I was worried that my body would end up feeling hammered due to the sports suspension.

A bad point was the driver seat. Pretty tight around my upper thighs, but working out would take care of that. Another bad point was the constant engine boom. Might get tiring after a while. Sure is a pretty sound when you lay on the gas, though.

All in all I enjoyed the car.

majorthomecho

I cannot believe the name that GM is going to use for its Cavalier replacement. Cobalt. That's not a car, it's a color. Cobalt? Doesn't really roll off my tongue.

backy

In one of the Planet of the Apes movies, the humans had a "doomsday" bomb that had a cobalt casing, which reacted with the atmosphere and caused extinction of all life on Earth. I hope GM's Cobalt has a slightly different effect.

I've never lived in St. Louis--lived in the Twin Cities almost my entire life, except for a few years in Texas.

pzev

In response to your post #2231, you say Mazda upped the powertrain warranty to 7 years / 100,000 miles on the Protege and Protege5. I can not find where you got this information from. Where did you see this? I asked the same question in another topic and it seems no one is aware of this.

lngtonge18

Maybe he meant Mitsubishi. They increased their powertrain warranty to 7/100k.

backy

At the time I made my post, my local Mazda dealers were advertising 7 year/100,000 mile powertrain warranties on Protege and (I think) the Pro5. I took another look at yesterday's ads and there was no mention of this warranty. So it could have been a regional/local short-term promotion.

majorthomecho

Guys (and any gals lurking out there), if GM's AutoShow In Motion comes to your area, GO! You will have a blast. I know I did.

I concentrated most on test driving the luxury cars, but I did test drive some of the low end cars.

One of the low end cars I test drove was the Vibe and I test drove two different versions (a manual and an AWD). I test drove the manual first and the set up is different from my Echo so I wasn't sure what gear I was in. I pulled up to the starting line and the car died. The attendant looks in and tells me I had the car in third. Restarted the car, put it in the proper gear and put it through its paces. Very fun and very tossable.

One of the Vibes (none that I test drove) died, but in a more permanent way. This lady and her husband got into a Vibe and she gets out complaining about the fact that the air conditioning is just blowing out hot air. I heard that as I was walking to a car. As I am driving by the Vibe, there is steam rising from under the hood and anti-freeze is splashing on the concrete.

Another low end car that I test drove (and came away disappointed in) was the Honda Civic coupe. This had to do with the seat. I found it to be very hard and very uncomfortable.

Although it is not a low end car, another car I test drove (on the same course) was a Nissan Altima. I sure hope all Altimas don't do this, but when I was rapidly accelerating, the air conditioner died. And when I let off the gas, the air conditioner came back to life. I duly reported it to the attendants.

Another non-low end car that I have to mention is the Hummer H2. The things they let you do to the vehicle are just amazing. First up was a steep climb and steep decent. The next was driving on a 35 degree incline. I felt like I was driving on two wheels. The moguls were pretty forgetable compared to the other stuff and then last was another steep decent.

The scariest moment came when I was tearing around the luxury car course in a Mercedes C320 and I come around a corner and some guy in a Bonneville is doing about five. Although I hated the Mercedes, I am glad it had good brakes.

I am going back Sunday so that my roommate can test drive the H2 (and some other cars).

backy

I got to drive a Spectra GSX 5-door automatic this week courtesy of Hertz in Newark. Automatic of course, just under 10,000 miles. I must admit I did not have high expectations going in but tried to keep an open mind.

Positives: hatchback utility, pleasant styling, no squeaks or rattles, cold A/C, fairly quiet at moderate cruising speeds (50-60), multi-adjustable driver's seat, grippy seat fabric, well-placed front cupholders, well-padded center arm rest, comfy leather-covered steering wheel.

Negatives: Rubbery, nervous suspension; uncomfortable front seat cushions (not well shaped); very loud, coarse engine when revved even slightly; transmission slipped on acceleration; flimsy air vents; inconvenient HVAC controls (too low); numbers on speedo too small; handling only fair; one map light not functioning; sunglasses holder not damped (as on Elantra etc.); irritating noise on interval wipers.

Overall it was clear to me that the Spectra is an old design that has a few good qualities but not enough to compete with the likes of comparably-priced (after rebates and discounts) cars like the Aerio, Elantra GT, Focus ZX5, or Pro5. It's also way behind the Matrix, but costs much less too. Especially troubling was the transmission that slipped roughly when accelerating (a sensation I've never felt before on an automatic tranny car), the rubbery suspension, and the engine noise that I would probably tire of quickly. Although the Spectra has the same type of multi-position seat adjusters as Hyundais have, the seat cushions are not well shaped. But the one thing that would knock the Spectra off my list for sure is an irritating "click" noise that comes from the dashboard on each swipe of the interval wipers; it sounded like an electromechanical switch. It would drive me crazy after awhile--like a slow metronome. Kia needs to redesign this model real soon.

dunworth

Hi all. Good to see some activity on this board again.

That Spectra is based on a rather old design. I do not know how Kia sells these things when cars like the Echo and Accent are at the same price point and vastly superior cars.

I like the way a number of Kia's are styled but they are just not price competitive. Here in Canada, Mitsu is new so it is aggressively priced as is Suzuki with its Aerio. We can get a base Aerio, 4-dr Accent, Cavalier/Sunfire, or Echo 4-door for about C$14 K plus tax. A well equipped Spectra has an MSRP over C$ 17 K - the same as a mid level Civic, Corolla, Sentra, Elantra etc. They must sell on financing since we do not get the long US warrantee.

My current favorite ultra cheap cars are the Echo Hatchback (we will not get the Scions) which start at C$ 13 K and the 4-door Accent which is just a little more in base trim level.

Canadians love small cars I am surprise this board is not busier.

dinu01

I've sat in the Echo HB at the Toronto Auto Show and what can I say, if this was Europe, it could sell, but it doesn't make sense to buy it IMO when you can get an Accent (larger) or simply buy a 2/3 yr old Protege/Civic for that $.

I love a new car but if that Echo HB is priced at $10K CAD, it just might sell 1000 units in Canada/yr. It could very well be the case of a good car in the wrong market...

Dinu

dunworth

You are right that a lot of people will question the value equation of the Echo hatch versus an Accent or second hand Civic/Corolla.

However I think the base version the the Echo hb will not be as much of a seller as the sport version which sells for just over C$15 K. Its pretty hot looking. Lots of young people do not want a Corolla but want the reliability of a Toyota.

majorthomecho

The search for a car for my roommate is now over. She looked at Kia's (due strictly on price), but the salesman turned her off. I suggested that we try looking at Toyotas. When we went, we really intented that she would end up with a new Cororlla, but she finally went with a 2003 Echo (due to the available rebate). It is equipped exactly as my 2001. As she has something of a lead foot, I will be driving her new car for the break in period.