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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Scion comes out in California next June. Rest of the country six months later, or something like that.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    but everyone else that was posting except for you two stopped when you guys started going back and forth with multiple posts from each of you. I think the rest of us didn't feel like we had anything to contribute to your argument about the Echo.

    Scion: I was hoping that maybe someone saw a prototype or something an an autoshow. I'm Hopefully going to be going to NAIAS this January. I'm going to try and bring a digital camera and get some good photos .
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    Just because you don't want to contribute to one thread doesn't mean you (or anyone else) can't start a thread on something else--like Scion for example. We could use some posts from you and others on different topics to open this board up some. Where are all the low-end car lovers????
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    low end European cars left out there? What is the cheapest VW sold now, about $18K? And I can't think of any other cheap Euro models...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    low-end car (MSRP under $15k) from a European automaker for sale in the U.S. right now. Today's Low-End Car Quiz is... name that car!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    the base Mini isn't under $15K is it?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    The '03 Mini base model is almost $17k MSRP with destination. But good luck actually buying one for that. Dealers are getting over MSRP. Note that Edmunds' TMV is actually more than MSRP.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    final answer? I don't THINK you can get a base golf for under $15K, can you?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I didn't realize that of course you were being serious, because Dodge is under DC which is now German.

    Of course, this is a formerly American brand owned offshore, that everyone still thinks of as an American brand, so it is not exactly what I meant. They are manufactured in the U.S. or Central/South America, right?

    If the Koreans get as good at low-end cars as I think they will, there will be no more "Japanese" in this discussion in ten years' time. They will have moved upmarket where the profits are better anyway.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    This is one of those questions that people have lots of opinions on. What is a "European" car? Or a "Japanese" car, or "American" car? The Neon was designed and built in the U.S., so does that make it an American car even though it is manufactured by a European car company? How about the Toyota models that are designed in Toyota's U.S. design studio and built in the U.S.? Those would be American cars then, correct? How about the VWs that are built in Brazil and Mexico? Are those European cars, or Brazilian (or Mexican) cars? How about the Caravans that are designed in the U.S. by DaimlerChrysler, but are built in Canada and Austria? What do we call those?? So there's lots of ways to slice this. That's why I said "from a European automaker", because the Neon is manufactured and sold by DaimlerChrysler, an automaker based in Germany.
  • You know better ... Neon was designed, engineered, and is built by an American company. Just because Daimler took Chrylser over does not make the range of Chrysler products "European". Hardly.

    That would suggest the Kia Spectra is as good as the Hyundai Elantra because one company bought the other. We all know the current Spectra is ready for retirement, especially when compared to Elantra.

    Happy T-day!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    I didn't say all Chrysler products are "European". I said the Neon was from a European automaker. I think it's getting harder to classify cars these days because of the international connections of most automakers, a few examples of which I gave earlier. I don't follow your comment about the Spectra being as good as the Elantra because Hyundai "bought" Kia. How does that relate to what we're talking about here?
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    according to this site...a 03 Golf GL MSRP and destination (2.0L, 5-speed) is $15,870 (note: not TMV)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    but no cigar... unless we want to raise the low-end threshhold for this board.
  • The Neon is from an American company that was bought by a European company. Until it is reengineered by German as well as American DC employees, that particular Neon is still from the (former) American automaker.

    Same goes for Spectra. I hear people ask me, "Well, it's a Hyundai now, isn't it?" The answer is 'no' because it was engineered before Kia was purchased. And there were similar comments when Jaguar was bought by Ford, and so on.

    My posting was less about what you said than it was about comments I hear in general, face-to-face.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    to call a Spectra a "Hyundai". The Spectra is from Kia, a division (?) of the Hyundai corporation. But understand I wasn't calling the Neon a Mercedes-Benz--it's still a Dodge, which happens to be a division of DaimlerChrysler, a German car company. Thus I still think it's accurate to say that the Neon comes from a European car company. If BMW were purchased tomorrow by GM (I shudder at the thought), then I would say that the 330i comes from an American car company, but I would still think of it as a "European" car as long as it is designed and built in Germany. Come to think of it, one could make the case that the Focus is a "European" car, although the company that makes it is an American company.

    What about those Toyotas that are designed in the U.S. (I assume by "American" Toyota employees, but who knows) and built in the U.S., mostly with American-made parts? Would you say those Toyotas are American or Japanese cars?
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    Is Nissan a french car company, since Renault rescued them financially?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    Does Renault own Nissan lock, stock, and barrel, like DC owns the former Chrysler Corporation? Or do they just have an investment in Nissan?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    the miata then must be an American car, since Mazda is wholely owned by Ford. I think not.

    Actually, Mazda does make an American car - the Tribute.

    I think the point is where the R&D is done, and where the sales profits go back to, as far as "what the car's nationality is".

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    I didn't know Ford owned 100% of Mazda. These boards are educational. I wouldn't consider the Miata an Amercian car, but since the Tribute is basically a relabeled Escape, that's about as American as you can get. There are rumors that the next-gen Protege will be based on the Focus platform. If that happens, will that make the Protege an "American" car, even if it's still built in Japan? Or will it be European, if the R&D for the Focus was at least partly done in Europe? Hmmm... this is a tough one to pin down.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    Ford owns "100%" of Mazda. They have a controlling interest, but they don't own 100% of it. Somebody who knows the exact amount that Ford owns needs to help us out here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    I had my first closeup look at the Ion sedan today, at a local Saturn dealer (which is conveniently located in an office building about one block from my downtown office). Although I did not take it for a drive (driving in downtown traffic is not my idea of a good test drive), the short of it is I was not impressed. The first thing I saw as I approached the car from the driver's side was the HUMONGOUS panel gaps around the doors; the gaps must have been 1/2". I know they have to allow for expansion/contraction of the plastic panels, but this is a big price to pay for those nifty plastic panels (which don't dent, they just break). The interior was a big improvement over the S-series; although I am not a fan of center-mounted gauges I suppose I could learn to live with them. The quality of the materials seemed better. The rear seat space still seemed tight compared to competitors like Corolla, Civic, Protege, Aerio, Lancer, Elantra. The alloys were tasteful and the plastic trim strips on the roof edges were interesting--light grey on a black car. I wouldn't buy the car because of it, though--it's a gimmick to me. The price was what turned me off the most--$16,200 with a 5-speed (!) automatic, alloys, power windows/locks/mirrors (huge, non-folding mirrors), height-adjustable seat, cloth interior, CD/cassette stereo. But no ABS or traction control, no moonroof. For that money I'd much rather have a fully loaded Elantra GT (actually would cost less since Saturn doesn't discount), or if I had shorter legs a Corolla LE; or even a Civic EX or Aerio AWD.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    Are talking about the Northstar building Saturn dealer? What building do you work in?
  • Ford only owns 33% of Mazda...enough by Japan law to have a controlling interest in the company. So no, Ford doesn't outright own Mazda but they do have some leverage in decisions.

    The next Protege hopefully will turn out like the new 6 - sharing the same quality feel and materials yet use Ford components here and there. Unlike the Tribute, which feels like a cheap tin box, the 6 is actually a product I'd buy.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    Thanks for the clarification, Parallax. I hope Ford doesn't ruin the Protege in its redesign, but I wouldn't mind if they took some of the suspension bits from the Focus' parts bin to make the ride more compliant while keeping the great handling. Add a little of the 6's style to it, and maintain the quality, and it would be an unbeatable low-end car.

    newcar31--yes, it's the Saturn dealer in the Northstar building. I don't actually work downtown on a regular basis, but my company has "hoteling" cubes in what used to be called (or maybe still is) the US Bank tower, and I stop in and use those when I'm downtown for meetings, as I was today. Do you work downtown?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    the next focus will have an engine designed and built by Mazda, while the protege will have the same engine and be built on the new focus platform - the continuing trend to globalizing the heck out of everything until there are few real choices out there.

    If mazda is a car, Ford is the steering wheel. mazda had some tough times before, and what isn't owned by Ford is owned by commercial banks in Japan. The agreement with Ford is all that allowed Mazda to still be around. Luckily, their strong engineering division survived stronger than ever.

    The new platform for Focus and protege will come from Europe, which begs the question: with Japanese powertrains, European design, and American components being built in large part in Mexico (at least for Focus), what on earth is the nationality of the next Focus and protege?

    To me, they can only be considered world cars.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • "J.D. Power 2002 Vehicle Dependability Study",

    http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=692&CatID=1


    "Consumer Reports Used cars Best & worst",

    www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp? CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113417&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=1038470398046, remove space after '?'

  • I enjoyed your take on the new Saturn, and none of it surprises me. There goes GM again, sending out a half-baked car.

    Back to post 1937: you're right, it IS ridiculous to consider a Kia product a "Hyundai" but that is the type of nonsense people conclude when one company buys another. I hear it all the time, sometimes from car guys. It's maddening.

    As for the Focus, I have always considered that a European car, because Ford products there and Ford products here are still mostly engineered separately. The Focus was designed for European tastes in handling and especially room. Cars this size are not "small" by their standards. But you are right, it is from an American company. Nippononly makes the best point: we are driving world cars.

    Now where's my turkey baster?
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