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Comments
The suspension....is better in handling than the first run MDX (the RDV is first run too). Wouldn't be surprised that the RDV comes out with some version of stability next year either, it'll still be $10,000 less too!
RSC on Volvo. You're the one who mentioned rollover. That's what the RSC helps prevent, which your statement implied that the MDX's RSA does address (which it doesn't).
Never stated RDV is luxury. Can you find that? Near-Luxury is what I call it. Edmund's calls it "entry-level luxury". Surly not the economy SUV that you pass it to be. Turning this, can you support your economy SUV statement.
"You keep putting up numbers from the 02 MDX, the 03 MDX numbers are much improved. You may doing so because the 03 RDV has stay the same". Is this a oxymoron? Haven't seen '03 numbers....has anyone else?
If the 04 RDV comes out with a bigger engine and VSA system, the price gap between the MDX and the RDV will be very narrow. Also the gas mileage will suffer with the bigger engine. The RDV major appeal is the gas mileage and the price. With that in mind, I doubt Buick will make that move.
The 03 RDV may have better handling numbers than the 01 MDX, but it does it with much more body roll. Very boaty in my option.
By the way the MDX doesn't have a RSA as you stated, the RSA is exclusive to Volvo at this moment.
I would also agree with you that the RDV is entry level luxury, but some auto reviewers classify it as even less than that, just like they do with the MDX.
The 03 numbers are better, not a oxymoron at all. Added features such 20 more hp, more powerful brakes, a more rigid frame and VSA system cannot make the the numbers go down. keep in mind that the 02 made some changes due to customer complain as well, not just the 03.
By the way, I have never said this before, it is nice to have car guys like you and fedlawman to shoot the crap with in the middle of night.
Take care mate.
Wouldn't take the Rainier, just like the Envoy either. Truck-based ride.
BTW, you missed the point again on the timing and American/Foreign issue...I fully expect the RDV to receive some "upgrades" next year, just like the MDX received in its 3rd year run. To you, there is a perception of major design issues, but that's just not the case.
So, do you have those '03 numbers since you keep using the '02 excuse? How about your backing that the RDV is a "ecnonomy SUV"?
Some points:
1. The Buick Rainier is a 5 passenger SUV. It's not even on my radar.
2. Sure the Subaru has a better AWD system. Not the issue I have. The issue is comparing a 7 passenger, 4200 lb minivan cousin to a compact station wagon (hence the Mini Cooper analogy).
3. Here are some "professional" opinions regarding the RDV's ride:
Car & Driver - "Its ride is quiet and comfortable."
Road & Track - "The Rendezvous boasts a sophisticated new independent suspension. The suspension is almost firm with great damping."
Edmunds.com - "Highway cruising yields a comfortable ride quality without the typical "float" associated with most Buick sedans."
So let's see. The RDV suspension is sophisticated, almost firm with great damping, and NOT floaty. It's also 2 MPH faster than the MDX through the slalom. Hmmmm.
Which Buick did you drive again?
4. As to "fixing" the RDV's problems, all I can say is, "what problems?" There have been no weeping mirrors, sloshing gas tanks, or other quality issues like the MDX has experienced. More than a few of these issues were carried over from the Odyssey...and even the Pilot got a few of them. When will Honda listen?
5. Regarding the MDX - A well dressed minivan that goes from 0-60 MPH in the low 8's and grips a skidpad worse than a Ford F-150 just doesn't "peg my fun meter." Then again, as long as it's good enough for you, that's all that matters.
I make it a point not to offer my personal opinions of specific vehicles on the boards. (I do enjoy participating in discussions of general issues, however!) These are your forums. All of you get to decide what the issues are, discuss them and draw your own conclusions. Steve and I just try to keep things civil, on-topic and legal!
Moreover, one's buying decision is a very personal thing, in my opinion, and what is right for me may not be right for you.
tidester, host
So you stated the Buick RDV's suspension is almost firm with great damping. That was my impression as well. Not firm enough and too much damping. Throw the RDV into a sharp corner and all your second row passenger will be on the same side of the car. Perhaps a set of Bilstein springs and shocks can fix that. While we are at it, the factory Uniroyal Tiger Paw Touring SR P215/70R16 needs to be replace as well. If one does all that, the RDV would handles much better, but still there is the problem with the engine being undersized. If you look at the MDX and the RDV's engine both are about the same size in liters. Gas mileage is also about the same. Yet the MDX's engine puts out 40% more horsepower than the RDV. Now thats engineering and refinement.
If you dont see any problems with the RDV, then you truly have your eyes closed. Even most of the RDV owner on this board admits that the engine undersize. You keep bringing up skidpad number from the 02 MDX without the VSA system, I will not response to that issue any more. As far as the weeping mirrors and the sloshing gas tanks, Those problem has been fix as well.
Room for 7, sports car performance, luxury car interior, under $40K. My neighbors will be green with envy...
You're a genius, Friday!
And that wouldn't happen in the MDX...even with the VSA system (that hasn't been tested for results, so 2002 is closest numbers and that UNDERPERFORMED the RDV)?
Since you're making excuses for tires, the Uniroyals are now Bridgestones.
The MDX HP comes not from the raw power of the engine itself. VVT and the exhaust has added significant deliever of the HP. eg: 20HP from exhaust tinkering this year. Whether that translates into real performance, we shall see. Even you stated on the MDX board that you're spectical about improved performance from the additional 20HP because it'll come in the high RPMs.
I'll look into the raw power of the engine and see if the new refined engine of Acura actually beats displacement power of an old unrefined 10+ year engine design the GM selected.
The MDX's suspension is much stiffer than the RDV's, It is not as stiff as the X5. But the MDX can handle sharp corners with minimal body lean. Any who know tires knows that the Uniroyal tiger paw are economical tires and they are not meant for performance and enhance traction.
Also, I am not so sure if the add on third road seats are anymore dangerous than the factory's third road seats if install correctly. The factory third row seats are forward facing and takes up more room. In the RDV, the third row seat is about a foot away from the rear window. Not much of a safety margin in a rear end collision. The after market units are usually rear facing units and the space between the third row seat and the rear window is about 3 to 4 feet in a typical SUV. Personally, I dont put my kids in the third row seats unless I have to. And when I do, I drive extra careful and watch for tail gaters.
OTOH, I did pay less than I would have for the comparable imports, and time will tell if that was a good choice.
Except for my truck, which I plan on keeping as an "extra" vehicle, I get new cars every few years. Snobby? Perhaps. But in just going from a 2000 to a 2002 I got a better air bag system, and several "upgrades" that make the ride a LOT more comfortable.
I don't begrudge anyone what kind of car they drive. Many people see a car as merely transportation and I know people that make millions that drive 10 year old cars. And I know people that make $20K a year driving $40K cars! But what do I care?
Friday, they're Bridgestone tires now. So, what other facts are supporting your claim of economy SUV for the RDV?
'03 MDX: 8.1 secs
'02 MDX: 7.9 secs
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/71177/page011.html
Uniroyal much like Firestone is the economical division of Bridgestone, similar to the Lexus and Toyota set up. Beside Bridgestone are mid grade tires in my option. If you want a nice set of tires, look to brands like Michelin and Pirelli.
Being a snob is not appealing to me personally. I like trying different cars and simply switch between American, Japanese and European cars. I spend over a thousand hours per year in my car, and simply want something that I like while spending all those time behind the wheel. Like most people who drive luxury cars. They are not trying to be a snob, its the people who is envy that label them as a snob. You own a Volvo, so you should know what I mean.
Certain Lincolns and Caddys would fall under the snob function too.
For quality control/repairs, the Japanese because they tend to have a better quality control mechanism. I would argue that the Europeans are just as bad as the domestics brands. Gosh, our Volvo got serviced three times the first year because of those little warranty things.
In all though, I would bet that the cost of repairs AFTER the warranty expires favors the domestics considerably because of labor/parts costs....let alone maintainence costs during the warranty that imports require via dealerships!
Japanese, have japanese parts, but many assembly plants are now in the US. European, mostly still european, minus MB.
So, which one saves our american jobs? I would still say buying american vehicles would for the time being (at the least the profits will definitely be more american oriented than going overseas!). The line is kind of blurred on "Buy american" these days....
I work very hard for my money like many of you, one of those rights I work so hard for is the right to choice. I will buy whats is the best car for the money. By the way, I still haven't decided which is better American or imports, but I will not buy American cars with the illusion that I am saving American jobs.
Steve, Host
Thanks for refraining! ;-)
tidester, host
Go to bed!
As far as the comparisions here, this discussion was created by request to start a "7 passenger mid-size luxury or near luxury SUV comparison topic."
Whether a "luxury" SUV can spring from a "minivan" platform is part of the comparison debate I guess.
Steve, Host
Ford Explorer - USA
Mercury Mountaineer - USA
Buick Rendezvous - Mexico
Acura MDX - Canada
At least it matters to me.
Here's a starter:
The leather grade is equitable throughout the class (Explorer even has a brand name attached to it), the seats are considered rough by many reviewers on the MDX (Edmunds, C/D); the Interior space is more in the RDV (so, does that rule out the MDX since RDV>MDX>MB?); MDX lacks Dual air-climate control for driver/passenger sides; MDX has no emergency wireless communications (OnStar in RDV).
Yes, the MDX fits right in here as far as luxury goes. (see snobbery posts earlier)
too early to tell if it will be as fun to drive as the ML -- it is different. Basically -- it met my functional needs and has enuf luxury. Does it excite my soul? No -- only my bmw and porsche targa were like that, but then i got awful tired of the repair bills.
I didn't consider the Rendevous mainly because of the engine size but it sounds like a good vehicle. I would have got the x5 but too little (and pricey) and i couldn't find an ML that actually had the 3rd row seats to try them out -- but i think the ML has improved on its quality problems and that was a close second. I also liked the XC90 but i made a decision to get a vehicle by Thanksgiving and then delayed the decision a little longer to re-consider the XC90 -- but they still didn't have one by the 20th of December and i decided to pull the trigger and go with the MDX. It concerns me that Volvo has taken so long to get that car out the door -- plus it didn't seem to be as big and the engine was underpowered, IMHO.
bottom line for us -- we needed a larger vehicle but decided to not go for a minivan and went with the MDX.
Actually, the song goes, "One of these things is not like the other ...". Miks, please help me understand how the MDX is "certainly more" luxurious than the RDV. I'm currently enjoying my heated front seats, heads-up display, dual climate control, 4 wheel ABS Disc brakes, 3 rows of supple leather seats, Onstar, Power Moonroof, great (Bose? - see earlier posts) eight speaker stereo with 6 disc in dash changer and dual subwoofers, sonar backup assist, memory seats and mirrors, rear footrests, great ride, AWD, front and side airbags ... what more do you want for "luxury"? Oh yeah, I own a 2002 Rendezvous CXL with Versatrak.
Item Ealuated RDV MDX
Rattles & Squeaks 5 10
seat comfort 6 9
overall build quality 5 9
value rating 5 8
braking performance 4 9
suspensionperformance 6 9
engine performance 4 8
steering performance 4 8
expanding loading cargo 7 9
Overall rating 154 195
Edmunds says: Paltry engine, swell looking but cheap-feeling materials, options add up, no off-road ability and only 185 hp. Down on power compared to the competition, a much improved version of the Aztek, but with old-tech, low power V6 and still relatively akward proportions, it's a tough sell over an MDX.
Soooooooo, I think the above stated by Edmunds reflects the quality issue if not the luxury issue. Luxury my friend is in the eye of the beholder. Don't be jealous of plastic wood, many luxury vehicles today have plastic instead of wood. It's not a snob thing. I don't feel the vehicles compare. I own a Ford truck and really like Fords. Wish they would do a better job with their SUV's I would own one, did own an Escape. But again, the quality lessened their 3rd year out. I don't think the leather compares either. Doesn't matter the brand name. It is the quality of the leather that matters. I have a cell phone, that works quite well with me for wireless communications. I wouldn't use Onstar. Does the RDV have climate control the rear passengers can control? I know the MDX does. JK27- MDX has most of the amenities you mentioned and even some you didn't. Here's the kicker... didn't have to pay extra for each of them. The MDX comes with most. Minus DVD and Navi. Of course with my navi I won't be able to rely on sonar back up assist. I will have to use the camera that projects a live picture of everything behind me on the navi screen. Again, didn't mean to rile you up. But after having done some research Edmund's seems to proven my point. I however, am still awaiting the arrival of the MDX I ordered. You are happily driving your RDV. If I desired an RDV instead of the MDX, I too would already be driving one as they are everywhere like my Ford Escape was. If you are happy with your RDV then it should beat out the MDX in your mind! Happy driving
Does the MDX belong in this comparison? that is really one's opinion VS another's. The MDX is rated much higher than the rest of the SUV in this comparison by just about every auto magazine. So maybe it provides a high benchmark for this comparison. On some of the other comparison I see, the MDX represents the low cost SUV of the bunch and most of the time the MDX still comes out in the middle of the pack somewhere.
Happy New Year
Taras
It is very easy to pick out a positive comment about the MDX, and a disparaging comment about the RDV, and then "prove your point" based on "having done some research" at Edmund's.com.
I will not re-post the last 30 days of discussion, but I invite you to go back and review the last 100 or so posts.
There you will find that, for every glowing comment an auto journalist made about the MDX or RDV, there is another who panned that same trait (ie: suspension, noise, squeaks & rattles, interior plastics, etc.). For every "fact" that proved the MDX's superiority, there was another "fact" that proved the RDV's advantage.
Bottom line? You can quote editorial reviews 'til you're blue in the face...for every quote you can find, there is another one to contradict it.
So which reviews do you believe?
The MDX clearly beats the RDV in some areas (engine power) and the RDV clearly beats the MDX in others (handling). Most other areas are highly subjective and open for debate (styling, quality, ride, luxury, value, etc.)
The MDX and RDV are both basically 75% minivan and 25% SUV. Your fooling yourself if you think otherwise. They are two slightly different approaches, by two different companies, to produce the same vehicle...and they both hit the mark.
The reason why this discussion has been so heated and long-winded is obvious. It's because neither car is the clear winner or loser. They both have an equal, yet different combination of strengths and weaknesses.
All that matters is which combination fits your lifestyle best...and we've all made up our minds already, haven't we?
Just about every rating system known to man has rated the MDX higher than the RDV. Can you name a rating system that actually rated the RDV higher? The MDX have recieved one award after another, when was the last time the RDV win any automotive award? You can keep padding yourself in the back and keep on believing that you actually pay less and got a SUV as good as the MDX. But please come back to earth.
Most Editor point out problems with the MDX that is minor in nature, such as wind noise and tire noise. But the editor points out trait in the RDV that are major issues such as power train, suspension and deign issues. Of course now I am getting blue in the face, because I have said this already. Somehow you keep responding with some kind of spin on the issue. Closing your eyes to the RDV's trait does not make it go away. The RDV may have beat the 02 MDX in the slalom by a fraction of a second. The 03 MDX should clearly beat the RDV with the new VSA system, since RDV has made no changes what so ever for the 03 model. By the way, just because a vehicle handles a slalom course well, doesn't mean it handles well. Many reviewers as well as me feels that the RDV suspension is too soft and it has way too much body lean when cornering.
Not sure where you come up with that 25% SUV and 75% minivan numbers. Did you just make up those numbers yourself? Lets examine the term SUV. Sporty Utility Vehicle, the term is almost like the term Americans, since there is no such thing as a pure breed. All SUV is derive from trucks, minivans or wagons. since both SUV is minivan based, they both have lots of utility. That leaves us with sport, the MDX is much more sportier than the RDV, the drive experience between the two is like day and night. Therefore, you might as well throw those 25% and 75% numbers out the window. The MDX's strength is power train, reliability and racing heritage and the RDV's strength is low price, and thats the bottom line.
Actually, if you review my history, you will find that I have substantiated all of my claims/opinions by quoting surveys, editorials, and/or road tests. I have not made a single claim that I cannot back up with some kind of documentation. You may disagree with me, but at least I am able to substantiate my claims.
For example, I have expressed how well controlled the RDV suspension is, and how well the RDV handles. I have posted test results that show the RDV is 2 MPH faster than the MDX in the 600' slalom and further supported this claim with editorial quotes from Road & Track, Car & Driver, and Edmunds.com (post #270).
In rebuttal, you stated, "Throw the RDV into a sharp corner and all your second row passenger will be on the same side of the car. Perhaps a set of Bilstein springs and shocks can fix that."
Hmmm, is that a fact? I can understand your not taking my word for it, but you also casually dismiss the opinions of Road & Track, Car & Driver, and Edmunds.com...without any substantiation! Well, you did test drive the RDV, so you must know better.
I also call your attention to my post #207. I listed all of your so called "facts" which are yet to be substantiated and have long since been proven false. In this same post, I even called your bluff on several unsubstantiated claims that you had made about the MDX's performance and safety in post #194. Now let's review post #194 and check the substantiation you offered there...oops, I see that you have deleted post #194.
As I said before, this discussion would never have been so heated if there was a clear winner or loser among these vehicles. You have clearly pointed out that the MDX has certain advantages over the RDV, which to you and others, justifies the premium sticker price.
On the other hand, several posters in addition to myself, have rightly pointed out some of the advantages that the RDV holds over the MDX.
It is for the each consumer to decide which vehicle best fits their needs and lifestyle. Clearly, for your particular wants and needs, you have chosen well.
I don't need to pay all those high Acura prevent maintenance bills to keep my warranty in force. That's just the service department looking for those gravy high profit margins.
Also, stop with the snob stuff. It's an Acura, that's all.
Following is a link to a article written by a Edmunds' reviewer and how he feels that the RDV's power train is too weak and the suspension is too soft.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/48245/article.html
By the way if you still think the discovery is a better SUV than the MDX. Following is a link to a article comparing 7 luxury SUV. Pay special attention as to where the discovery and the MDX was place in the competition. I rest my case.
Click on the comparison test Designer-Ute smackdown
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/ultimate_comparos/ultimate_comparo_suvs.xml
I think I've been pretty good about providing links. But just to make sure, I went back and reviewed all of my prior posts where I made a specific claim about the RDV and/or the MDX (there are 10 such posts).
I then added up all the references that I cited, linked, or quoted in some manner. There are 19 (see posts #127, 130, 143, 207, 228, 230, 232, and 270 for specifics).
You're turn...
Nice try.
(BTW, did you notice how the MDX tied with the "old" Discovery for "most racket at 70MPH?" I thought that was funny).
Post #128 - "Luxury SUV, sports car and luxury saden are not for people who are really watching their pennies. That is why they make economical cars for people like you."
Post #216 - "Hopefully the (MDX) tranny problem will go away with the re-design transmission for the 03. You said the engine runs loud...the wind and tire noise might be what you are referring to."
Post #220 - "when a car or suv takes on that Acura badge they concentrate on quality instead of quantity. What they are after is repeat customers really."
Post #229 - "(MDX) Road noise was louder than we had expected." thats because one usually does not expect road noise from a car this refined."
Post #242 - "with the MDX, I dont need to own a Miata for fun."
Post #246 - "The MDX is as sporty as the (BMW) 318i except while cornering."
Post #272 - "One can alway buy the third row seat in the after market if having 2 extra seat is that important to you."
Post #282 - "its the people who is envy that label them as a snob."
And my favorite...post #146 - "When one doesn't know all the fact, he or she just comes off as ignorance."
You brighten my life a little bit more with every sentence you print. Thank you.
Yes the discovery have improved, but so have the MDX. All reviewers usually have something good and something bad to say about every car or SUV, the MDX is no exception. It is the final ranking that matters. Notice where car and Driver and other auto magazines rank the MDX compare to other SUVs, its almost always on top or in the top half. Thats is more than I can say about the discovery or the RDV.
By the way, you still didnt answer my question. Name one major magazine or auto reviewer that actually rank the RDV higher than the MDX, please use real quantitative ranking systems, not a sentence here and a sentence there from different articles like you usually do. Secondly, what recent award have the Buick RDV received?
I know you are probably looking long and hard in the internet since I last time I ask you this already. Since your keep skipping over these two questions, I must assume that you came up empty.
By the way when you said " You brighten my life a little bit more with every sentence you print. Thank you. " You do mean enlighten your life a little more not brighten, thought I correct your mistakes again.
Have a happy new year
Brighten = to make brighter, happier.
Enlighten = To inform, educate.
You have done the former, but not the latter...
1. I have provided you with the posts in which I have used factual data obtained from an editorial publication, manufacturer website, or market research firm...to name a few. Please go and look at the posts and decide for yourself whether I satisfactorily substantiated my assertions.
"Name one major magazine or auto reviewer that actually rank the RDV higher than the MDX."
2. Since I have never claimed that the RDV is "better than" the MDX, why should I try and prove something that I have never asserted? My argument has been, and continues to be, that the RDV is in the same "near-luxury class" as the MDX, and that it offers comparable features and performance for significantly less money.
"What recent award has the RDV received?"
3. That's a good one...I've never thought about that. Here's two off the top of my head:
* 2001 Detroit News Truck of the Year
* Silver medal, 2001 Inca Trail Rally
You claim that the RDV is in the same "near-luxury class" as the MDX and the two is comparable. Okay then name one major magazine or auto reviewer that actually rank the RDV the same as the MDX, again please use real quantitative ranking systems.
2001 Detroit News Truck of the Year??? Come on now, while you are at it dont forget to mention Ohio truck of the year award. And the what Trail Rally? Lets stick to the main stream here and refer to major awards only such as R&T, motor trend or JD power. By the way, do you have links to back up these claims of awards?
I'll start you out.
I counted approximately 40 posts containing "statements of fact" and I found 4 quoted sources other than your imagination.
Among these 4 sources, one was a failed attempt to prove the RDV costs only $3000 less than the MDX using Edmunds.com "True Cost to Own" calculator and one irrelevent quote from an Edmunds.com road test about the RDV getting a flat tire during an off-road test.
The remaining two were pretty good arguments in favour of the MDX.