OK, finally got around to doing this. It wasn't quite as easy as Miata.net made it sound, and I did need a helper to bleed the system.
I used the instructions from Miata.net's garage, they were good, but photos would have helped. I also had a cheap shop manual handy, for reference, but it wasn't too helpful.
Here are the pics I took, you need to be registered at ImageStation.com to see them, but it's worth it if you might do a slave cylinder job in the future:
I used a Turkey Baster, of all things, to first get the brake fluid out of the reservoir.
Then I jacked up the passenger side and removed the front tire. Then remove the hydraulic lines, and then the slave, held by two bolts. I think I used 8, 10, and 12mm wrenches and sockets.
The pics show the old and new components next to each other. The rubber grommet was very worn. The internals were not, but the fluid was a nasty brown, foggy color. Now it's clear and much lighter.
Access is a little tight, but it's not difficult. I cleaned the slave cylinder up, slid the new parts in. The rebuild kit included the grommet, a new spring, and the little piston with the rubber gasket that creates a seal with the inside of the slave cylinder. I don't know what that's called. The rubber grommet didn't seem like it would fit, but sure enough it did.
Bleeding the system is better done with two people or a speed bleeder. I used the hint Miata.net gave, and had a jar with some fluid in to drain into, so air could not be sucked back in to the system. But the jar overflowed so I had to empty part of it once or twice.
I had to refill the reservoir about 4-5 times IIRC. Basically I had my wife pump the clutch pedal, and I'd alternate between refilling the reservoir, and emptying half of the fluid in the jar.
I used the air tubes from my old aquarium set. Knew that would come in handy some day!
Good news is I managed to not spill any brake fluid, bring plenty of rags or paper towels though. After bleeding the pedal is firm and linear, too.
I'll check the fluid in a week or so, hopefully it's not slowly leaking any more, like it used to. I'm beginning to think perhaps bleeding it would have been enough, something I believe Shifty suggested I try at first, a long time ago. Good call, buddy.
My guess is no. At a minimum you'd have to raise the front seat track and remove some stuffing from the seat back. Even then, I dunno.
I raised the front of the seat track with spacers. I got a longer bolt to hold down the seat, and raised it about 3/8". This lets you bend your knees more and provides some thigh support.
But my inseam is just 30", and I had to do that. You could remove some stuffing from the seat, but that might buy you an extra inch, you'd still be real tight.
I'm not far from you, if you want to do a test-fit in a Miata that has already had the seat track modified, let me know. I'm not taking my seat apart, though.
I live near you and work in DC, e-mail me (it's in my profile) if you're interested.
Considering a 2001 or 2002 Miata in the near future but would like to add more H.P. to it. What are my options and at what cost? What mods are available that don't cost an arm and a leg or seriously shorten engine life? I've consistently read that the Miata's design is conducive to this, I would like to know what are my best options in adding 30 or 40 H.P.
There are inumerable options available to you with the Miata. 30-40 HP may be the most you can expect without adding a Turbo or SC. If I were you, I would do a google search and make a visit to the miata.net forums.
It's about 78hp/liter, there are plenty of cars that don't do as well. Sure, it's not ideal for a car like the Miata, but they are trying to make a (steadily increasing) price point.
I think the Miata is much better served by its current engine, than with something like the Celica GT-S's engine. It might get 100hp/liter, but it would ruin the Miata.
I don't think it would be too hard to get 30 HP without forced induction. The big loss in the Miata is in the exhaust. If not for 50 state emissions, it would have had 155 HP stock. That is 13 HP right there with what would have been a stock exhaust. Put in a good aftermarket exhaust and intake and you could probably get 20 HP. Replace the ECU and lighten some engine components and you could probably get another 10 HP without much effort. The only thing is, I am not sure it would cost less than forced induction to do these things.
As for 140 HP (actually 142) out of a 1.8 being pathetic, you don't see Toyota putting the Celica engine in their MR2 do you? No, the MR2 engine only puts out 138 HP which is 4 less than the Miata, and the torque ratings are the same. The simple truth is these cars don't need gobs of HP and torque. If you want power oversteer, get a Cobra Mustang. If you want finesse in cornering and high exit speeds, get a Miata. I personally am very happy with the amount of power my Miata has, and it isn't even fully broken-in yet. The biggest performance upgrades I would ever do are intake and exhaust.
"I don't see why manueverability and power need to be exclusive!"
Well, they don't, do they? More power just costs more money. I was simply stating that enormous power isn't what the Miata was designed for. You could get an S2000 or a Boxster S if you wanted more power, but, again, it would cost more. Here is an interesting essay on the subject from Bob Hall, father of the Miata:
since they already have VVT, 40 horsepower should cost a lot less than loosing 200 lb... although actually I bet 50lb or so could be dropped quickly by switching from that ancient iron block to aluminum.
Actually, I could easily afford to have paid 40k for the S2000 or even more for a Z4, but did not. The Miata is a hoot to drive. And I was satisfied with the hp.
To keep the Miata its size and add 60 more hp to the engine would have meant a significantly more expensive car.
The Miata is not the only player in this field. It sells well because it satisfies the needs of many people. If you need more hp, there are alternatives. Why diss the Miata for offering something different?
Mazda has had to discount pretty much everything but the Tribute and the RX-8. The fact remains that the Miata is still the best selling roadster in the US and abroad. Perhaps this is due to price. I hate to use the Toyota/Honda arguement, but can so many people be wrong?
I think Bob Hall addressed this in the essay I posted earlier. Yes, Mazda could offer more power and charge more for it, but it is clear that the Miata would no longer be the value leader it is today. It would start to look a lot more like an S2000 wannabe. Honda may have a larger profit margin on the S2000, but they sell a lot less of them. Any economist will tell you that lower margins with higher sales is the ticket to increase revenues.
At least Mazda is offering a higher performance version of the Miata with the MazdaSpeed Miata this fall for those who feel they need it. I personally do not feel that way.
Perhaps you should offer your services to Mazda's competitors. They also seem not to be able to find the horses per litre you feel Mazda should for the price.
The Miata has a 1.8 litre 4. The dollar for dollar, litre for litre competitor for the Miata, the Toyota MR2, actually has four horses less than the Miata. The S2000 has more horses. But it is 10k more and has a 2 litre, not 1.8. The other roadsters - Z4, Boxter, Spyder, have 6 or 8 cyl. engines and cost far more than even the S2000.
Some screaming non roadster 4 cyls that cost around the same as the Mazda, such as the Civic Si, Focus SVT, WRX all have 2.0s. The Dodge SRT has a 2.0.
The Mini Cooper S with its 1.6 also bests the Miata. I believe Cooper is turbo charged. The Celica GTS with its 1.8 also bests the Miata. That is if you are willing to rev the engine to 7600to find those extra ponies.
All in all, I think the Miata is pretty much in line with price and competition.
"Some screaming non roadster 4 cyls that cost around the same as the Mazda, such as the Civic Si, Focus SVT, WRX all have 2.0s. The Dodge SRT has a 2.0.
The Mini Cooper S with its 1.6 also bests the Miata. I believe Cooper is turbo charged. The Celica GTS with its 1.8 also bests the Miata. That is if you are willing to rev the engine to 7600to find those extra ponies."
All of those are FWD (except WRX). It is no secret that FWD is cheaper to implement than RWD. It is also no secret that RWD is superior to FWD in everything but bad weather. You are getting what you pay for either way -- more power and FWD vs. balanced chassis and RWD.
there is nothing special about a FWD powertrain that allows it to make power more easily, or more cheaply, than RWD.
the FWD packaging itself may be a bit less expensive, but its main advantage is leaving more room for people and cargo.
mazda is just getting by with 140HP because they can... it's a shameful amount of output compared to any "performance" 4 cylinder on the market. toyota is obviously ready to up the ante at any time since the MR-S shares powertrains with the celica.
Miata is the best selling roadster in HISTORY. But because it has less power than its more expensive competitors the Miata is "shameful"? Have you ever even driven these cars? If not, drive them all yourself and then tell me if you are willing to fork over the extra $10k or more for these cars over the Miata.
The point is that to make a rwd convertible frame with sufficient rigidity is expensive. A FWD hardtop is cheaper to make sufficiently rigid than an rwd convertible. Moreover, all these makes, Mazda included, build mainly fwd platforms. That means there are more opportunities to share parts from the less slammed fwd models with the performance fwd models than in the case of the unique for Mazda Miata.
Mazda put more of its money in the frame. The result is that the Miata handles better than just about any other vehicle in its price point.
In fact, the whaaaat should be directed to you. As I pointed out above, the performance 4s on cars at or near the price of the Miata, are for the most part, larger 4's. As it is, the 1.8 barely fits in the Miata. If I wanted a bigger roadster, I would have bought a convertible Vette.
The Cooper S engine is smaller than the Miata's, but turbo charged.
The Celica GTS is the same size as the Miata and normally aspirated. The Celica sells in very small numbers. Its price is nearer to the Miata LS than the base Miata.
And the fact is, the Toyota MR2 has less hp than the Miata. That Toyota does not put the GTS engine into the MR2 probably suggests it cannot find a way to make money on the MR2 using that engine. Most likely, Toyota feels it would never recover the money from engineering the GTS engine for the mid-platform MR2.
Finally, it is ridiculous to accuse a great little engine, in a car that is roundly praised by its buyers and nearly every buff magazine available as being 'Shameful.' Dollar for dollar, litre for litre, the Miata engine is very competitive.
If there is ever a reason to attribute the term 'shameful' in the competitive car sales biz (if you do not like one car's personality, just buy another), by your logic, it should be Toyota. Toyota has a 1.8 with more ponies and does not put it in the MR2. How dare it not spend the money on engineering to do so.
It costs less money since the transmission and differential are in the same package. You don't have to run a driveshaft the length of the car or use a full differential. FWD cars can have cheap, simple, lightweight rear suspensions that do not have to take into account axle shafts. It requires less engineering effort and fewer, lighterweight parts to build a FWD car. This may seem like an advantage until you have to drive one.
Of course Mazda is "getting by" with what they can. The market for roadsters does not demand 200HP. This is clear from the S2000 production numbers. From today's Detroit News:
"Combined production in Japan of the NSX, S2000 and Insight models in 2002 totaled 17,000 units"
There is no point in developing a ultra-high performance engine for a car that doesn't need one. It isn't worth the money.
There are a fair number of Spyder enthusiasts who swap the GTS engine into their cars. The reason Toyota doesn't do it is because a $30,000+ Spyder is a risky proposition.
In addition, 2004 is going to be the last year of the Spyder. Toyota is not only not ready to up the ante, they are withdrawing their entrant.
On behalf of Mazda, I apologize for the Miata having to be part of a business plan. But since engine upgrades are free, why don't those thieves at Honda sell the S2000 at the Miata price point? Curse them!
Actually, it is a pretty good business plan. Make a relatively inexpensive roadster as a Halo car to get people in the dealerships. Then sell them whatever else they want (economy car, Minivan, SUV). The more reasonable you make the roadster, the more you will sell, the more exposure Mazda gets.
I think what Colin is trying to say is the Miata is getting a little long in the tooth, as compared to what is now available. I hope the new Miata will address most of its current shortcomings. It should have more power, new all-aluminum engine, lighter weight, but still affordable.
straight-line performance? Its a car designed for back road open top fun.
I don't think your in denial. I think you are hostile, closed minded (what I want in a vehicle is the only good vehicle), and prone to extreme exageration.
At 22 to 26k, which roadster out performs the Miata? Oh that's right -- none.
If you want straight-line performance get a Corvette or a Viper.
If you want to go off-road, get a Jeep.
If you want to haul lumber, get a pick-up.
If you want to haul seven people, get a minivan.
If you want to take your kid to soccer and you think you have an inferiority complex, get a very large SUV.
If you want to have "the most fun in a car with your pants on" (Edmunds MX-5 review), then get a Miata.
If you want the same thing as a Miata but with higher insurance, essentially useless extraneous horsepower but more snob appeal then the s2k, boxter, Z/M3 may be right up your alley.
I like that. I need a bumper sticker like that on my M3.
But anyway, seems like there's a little bit of middle ground between a Miata and a Viper. I could be mistaken, or maybe you're just exaggerating to feel better about your cute, not-at-all-fast car.
-Colin ps, and I'm not hostile-- just slightly opinionated. it's a sloooow car. I like turbo miatas just fine!
Other than to suggest Toyota could have put a higher hp engine in the MR2 (that Toyota has not apparently means nothing to your argument), you have yet to point out any other roadster make that provides a front engine, rear wheel drive with more hp at the Mazda price point.
And yes, you are being hostile, doing the old boy school locker room tough guy its a cute car thing. I bought the Miata because it was tossable fun with rear wheel drive which allows you to steer by kicking out the rear end the way God meant cars to steer.
In my opinion, buying a higher hp front wheel or awd car at the price is a cop out as the driver is taking real driving skill out of the equation. But I certainly see no reason to go to the CivicSi forums and waste everyone's time telling them they should not have bought fwd.
Thing is we're in the middle of a horsepower race. I think maybe Nissan started it, 245hp in your basic family sedan?
Then Accord got 240hp. Neons make 215hp claimed, it's more like 215 net HP at the wheels! C&D just clocked a Forester XT at 5.3 seconds to 60, that's quicker than a Porsche Cayenne S or a 911 Carrera.
So, it's all relative. The 911 Carrera is not a slow car by any means. It's just amazing what is being offered at very low price points.
That phenomenon has not spread to the roadster market yet, at least not the sub-$30k roadster market.
But the Altima SE, Accord LX V6, Forester XT, and Neon SRT-4 can all be had under $25 grand, so the horsepower race has hit the mainstream.
"it revs to 6000rpm. it's an iron block. adding variable valve timing in 2001 resulted in a gain of 2HP and 7lb-ft in the midrange. whoop-de-doo"
Well, mine revs to 7000rpm. If it makes you feel any better non-US market Miatas put out 157 HP with the same engine. It isn't Mazda's fault the US powertrain is hindered by emissions requirements, it is State of California's.
I still don't know what exactly is wrong with an iron block. Seems like many mainstream cars still use iron these days. If aluminum was so superior, shouldn't all engine blocks be aluminum by now?
There you go, Juice has hit my point exactly. Today many lowly economy cars far outclass the Miata, which doesn't seem right for a proper sportscar.
I'm not asking for a 2300lb Viper, I'm just saying that 25-40 more horsepower would be really nice and easily within reach if Mazda (and more consumers?) cared.
I can see how it would be enough for some people... It's not enough for me.
-Colin ps, yes it bounces off the rev limiter at 7k, but the engine is done making power at 6k and that last 1000 rpm comes rather slowly; might as well shift.
Yeah, upmarket versions of some lowly economy car models -- do come with slammed engines on POS fwd frames with only modest shock and anti-roll bar additions.
For me, the FWD [and the bargain basement AWD WRX]is a more serious performance compromise than the supposed hp shortcoming.
You claim in your profile that you own an M3. One would hope a satisfied BMW owner would have long since realized the performance edge with RWD.
For me, the only possible alternatives to the Miata would have been the Z4, Vette, or the Spyder (the motorcycle on four wheels that is the S2000 is not for me). My work schedule keeps me out of my car for most of the week. So spending a lot less on the Miata made sense to me.
Where you are missing the point is that when some of us look to buy a less expensive toy, we look at the drive train format first. For us, the real compromise is putting a big engine on a cheap fwd platform.
Neon maybe, but WRX? The Group N car is essentially a stock WRX with a roll cage and rules SCCA Rally. Bargain basement?
My Forester has more miles than my Miata, and it's far more refined. The Miata is more fun, but no way would I say the Subaru feels more bargain basement, the opposite is true.
Edit: Colin rides a sport bike and I think perhaps he's become addicted to serious acceleration, at a minimum it's spoiled him on cars like the Miata, which seem slow to him (but aren't IMO).
Logic1, I definitely hate FWD performance cars. I rant even more about those. FWD is fine for mundane transportation.
Here though I'm talking about powerplants only. I'd like to see more "umph" out of the Miata for the $ it takes to get into one... No question I'd take an underpowered Miata over an underpowered FWD lightweight any day of the week!
It's no claim... I do own one. Who is being hostile now?
It appeared in your earlier posts you were promoting those boy racer FWDs, which does not seem right coming from a beemer owner. Post 3137 is much more what I would expect from someone who can appreciate the glorious M3 enough to shell out for one.
Ateixeira: My comment, admittedly cryptic, refers to the appearance of the WRX. I am a strict RWDer, and have not even sought to test drive a WRX.
I respect that other people like AWD, and will take you on your word that the WRX is a good car.
So I will restate it for the last time. The Miata is not a fast car, it is not meant to be a fast car in terms of straight line acceleration and huge amount of horsepower. The Miata is meant to be a fun car that is by far the most affordable sports car in the US market. If you want more power, buy something else and be prepared to pay a whole lot more for it than you would for an MX-5.
If the Miata comes out in it's NC version with ~40 more horsepower, it WILL have a $30k+ sticker. It will also price itself right out of existence like the RX-7 and the 300ZX before it. Demands for more power resulted in "faster" cars with higher prices that nobody would pay.
I know you would like to see a $20k, 200hp Miata but that just isn't going to happen, it can't be done, not if Mazda wants to stay profitable and continue building the greatest selling roadster of all time.
I think the car isn't "meant" to be slow-- it just is, with respect to what all cars have done within recent times. Remember when a 90HP FWD econobox wasn't unusual?
You're letting Mazda off the hook far too easily. Did the Sentra see a price hike when Nissan upped its output? How about the new Mazda 6's rather potent V6?
I'm only asking for another 20-40 HP, not HUGE horsepower. (Who is missing the point?) Someone will fill the niche between an $32k S2000 and a mid-$20k Miata.
FWIW, put a fatter rear sway bar on a 5 speed Subie and you can swing the tail out and control it with the throttle.
The automatics default to 80/20 power split, so they fell more like FWD, but 5 speeds are 50/50 default. If you get the tail out and add throttle, power shifts to the front and pulls you out of a drift, very fun, very un-FWD-like.
Put it this way, in the snow, the Forester is as "tail-out-fun" as the Miata is on dry pavement.
The Miata is downright scary in the snow (even with my working rear LSD and all seasons).
Comments
I will post details as I get them.
I used the instructions from Miata.net's garage, they were good, but photos would have helped. I also had a cheap shop manual handy, for reference, but it wasn't too helpful.
Here are the pics I took, you need to be registered at ImageStation.com to see them, but it's worth it if you might do a slave cylinder job in the future:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289876491
I used a Turkey Baster, of all things, to first get the brake fluid out of the reservoir.
Then I jacked up the passenger side and removed the front tire. Then remove the hydraulic lines, and then the slave, held by two bolts. I think I used 8, 10, and 12mm wrenches and sockets.
The pics show the old and new components next to each other. The rubber grommet was very worn. The internals were not, but the fluid was a nasty brown, foggy color. Now it's clear and much lighter.
Access is a little tight, but it's not difficult. I cleaned the slave cylinder up, slid the new parts in. The rebuild kit included the grommet, a new spring, and the little piston with the rubber gasket that creates a seal with the inside of the slave cylinder. I don't know what that's called. The rubber grommet didn't seem like it would fit, but sure enough it did.
Bleeding the system is better done with two people or a speed bleeder. I used the hint Miata.net gave, and had a jar with some fluid in to drain into, so air could not be sucked back in to the system. But the jar overflowed so I had to empty part of it once or twice.
I had to refill the reservoir about 4-5 times IIRC. Basically I had my wife pump the clutch pedal, and I'd alternate between refilling the reservoir, and emptying half of the fluid in the jar.
I used the air tubes from my old aquarium set. Knew that would come in handy some day!
Good news is I managed to not spill any brake fluid, bring plenty of rags or paper towels though. After bleeding the pedal is firm and linear, too.
I'll check the fluid in a week or so, hopefully it's not slowly leaking any more, like it used to. I'm beginning to think perhaps bleeding it would have been enough, something I believe Shifty suggested I try at first, a long time ago. Good call, buddy.
-juice
think I will fit in a 1st-gen Miata? I fit in the 90's Toyota MR2 great.
I am considering getting an old, old used one as a fun project car. Any other advice? A year to avoid?
I raised the front of the seat track with spacers. I got a longer bolt to hold down the seat, and raised it about 3/8". This lets you bend your knees more and provides some thigh support.
But my inseam is just 30", and I had to do that. You could remove some stuffing from the seat, but that might buy you an extra inch, you'd still be real tight.
I'm not far from you, if you want to do a test-fit in a Miata that has already had the seat track modified, let me know. I'm not taking my seat apart, though.
I live near you and work in DC, e-mail me (it's in my profile) if you're interested.
-juice
Miatas aren't really about straight line speed, though. I think they're all fun as-is. Too much power might upset the balance, or worse, add weight.
-juice
-Colin
I think the Miata is much better served by its current engine, than with something like the Celica GT-S's engine. It might get 100hp/liter, but it would ruin the Miata.
As for 140 HP (actually 142) out of a 1.8 being pathetic, you don't see Toyota putting the Celica engine in their MR2 do you? No, the MR2 engine only puts out 138 HP which is 4 less than the Miata, and the torque ratings are the same. The simple truth is these cars don't need gobs of HP and torque. If you want power oversteer, get a Cobra Mustang. If you want finesse in cornering and high exit speeds, get a Miata. I personally am very happy with the amount of power my Miata has, and it isn't even fully broken-in yet. The biggest performance upgrades I would ever do are intake and exhaust.
I don't, not nearly. I don't see why
manueverability and power need to be exclusive!
-Colin
Well, they don't, do they? More power just costs more money. I was simply stating that enormous power isn't what the Miata was designed for. You could get an S2000 or a Boxster S if you wanted more power, but, again, it would cost more. Here is an interesting essay on the subject from Bob Hall, father of the Miata:
http://www.miata.net/askbob/speed_costs.html
-juice
-Colin
To keep the Miata its size and add 60 more hp to the engine would have meant a significantly more expensive car.
The Miata is not the only player in this field. It sells well because it satisfies the needs of many people. If you need more hp, there are alternatives. Why diss the Miata for offering something different?
Maneuverability, power AND affordability, are.
-juice
I think they can add power and stay in the price range they are already at, it's just that the market hasn't demanded it.
-Colin
If they offered more power they could probably stick closer to MSRP.
-juice
I think Bob Hall addressed this in the essay I posted earlier. Yes, Mazda could offer more power and charge more for it, but it is clear that the Miata would no longer be the value leader it is today. It would start to look a lot more like an S2000 wannabe. Honda may have a larger profit margin on the S2000, but they sell a lot less of them. Any economist will tell you that lower margins with higher sales is the ticket to increase revenues.
At least Mazda is offering a higher performance version of the Miata with the MazdaSpeed Miata this fall for those who feel they need it. I personally do not feel that way.
The Miata has a 1.8 litre 4. The dollar for dollar, litre for litre competitor for the Miata, the Toyota MR2, actually has four horses less than the Miata. The S2000 has more horses. But it is 10k more and has a 2 litre, not 1.8. The other roadsters - Z4, Boxter, Spyder, have 6 or 8 cyl. engines and cost far more than even the S2000.
Some screaming non roadster 4 cyls that cost around the same as the Mazda, such as the Civic Si, Focus SVT, WRX all have 2.0s. The Dodge SRT has a 2.0.
The Mini Cooper S with its 1.6 also bests the Miata. I believe Cooper is turbo charged. The Celica GTS with its 1.8 also bests the Miata. That is if you are willing to rev the engine to 7600to find those extra ponies.
All in all, I think the Miata is pretty much in line with price and competition.
The Mini Cooper S with its 1.6 also bests the Miata. I believe Cooper is turbo charged. The Celica GTS with its 1.8 also bests the Miata. That is if you are willing to rev the engine to 7600to find those extra ponies."
All of those are FWD (except WRX). It is no secret that FWD is cheaper to implement than RWD. It is also no secret that RWD is superior to FWD in everything but bad weather. You are getting what you pay for either way -- more power and FWD vs. balanced chassis and RWD.
the FWD packaging itself may be a bit less expensive, but its main advantage is leaving more room for people and cargo.
mazda is just getting by with 140HP because they can... it's a shameful amount of output compared to any "performance" 4 cylinder on the market. toyota is obviously ready to up the ante at any time since the MR-S shares powertrains with the celica.
-Colin
The point is that to make a rwd convertible frame with sufficient rigidity is expensive. A FWD hardtop is cheaper to make sufficiently rigid than an rwd convertible. Moreover, all these makes, Mazda included, build mainly fwd platforms. That means there are more opportunities to share parts from the less slammed fwd models with the performance fwd models than in the case of the unique for Mazda Miata.
Mazda put more of its money in the frame. The result is that the Miata handles better than just about any other vehicle in its price point.
In fact, the whaaaat should be directed to you. As I pointed out above, the performance 4s on cars at or near the price of the Miata, are for the most part, larger 4's. As it is, the 1.8 barely fits in the Miata. If I wanted a bigger roadster, I would have bought a convertible Vette.
The Cooper S engine is smaller than the Miata's, but turbo charged.
The Celica GTS is the same size as the Miata and normally aspirated. The Celica sells in very small numbers. Its price is nearer to the Miata LS than the base Miata.
And the fact is, the Toyota MR2 has less hp than the Miata. That Toyota does not put the GTS engine into the MR2 probably suggests it cannot find a way to make money on the MR2 using that engine. Most likely, Toyota feels it would never recover the money from engineering the GTS engine for the mid-platform MR2.
Finally, it is ridiculous to accuse a great little engine, in a car that is roundly praised by its buyers and nearly every buff magazine available as being 'Shameful.' Dollar for dollar, litre for litre, the Miata engine is very competitive.
If there is ever a reason to attribute the term 'shameful' in the competitive car sales biz (if you do not like one car's personality, just buy another), by your logic, it should be Toyota. Toyota has a 1.8 with more ponies and does not put it in the MR2. How dare it not spend the money on engineering to do so.
Of course Mazda is "getting by" with what they can. The market for roadsters does not demand 200HP. This is clear from the S2000 production numbers. From today's Detroit News:
"Combined production in Japan of the NSX, S2000 and Insight models in 2002 totaled 17,000 units"
There is no point in developing a ultra-high performance engine for a car that doesn't need one. It isn't worth the money.
In addition, 2004 is going to be the last year of the Spyder. Toyota is not only not ready to up the ante, they are withdrawing their entrant.
On behalf of Mazda, I apologize for the Miata having to be part of a business plan. But since engine upgrades are free, why don't those thieves at Honda sell the S2000 at the Miata price point? Curse them!
and yes, I've driven one. my ex-wife has a 2000 base + susp and I've autocrossed it.
it's a nice vehicle but not much straightline performance for $22,000-26,000 MSRP. I'm not in denial; the market clearly supports this.
-Colin
I don't think your in denial. I think you are hostile, closed minded (what I want in a vehicle is the only good vehicle), and prone to extreme exageration.
At 22 to 26k, which roadster out performs the Miata? Oh that's right -- none.
If you want to go off-road, get a Jeep.
If you want to haul lumber, get a pick-up.
If you want to haul seven people, get a minivan.
If you want to take your kid to soccer and you think you have an inferiority complex, get a very large SUV.
If you want to have "the most fun in a car with your pants on" (Edmunds MX-5 review), then get a Miata.
If you want the same thing as a Miata but with higher insurance, essentially useless extraneous horsepower but more snob appeal then the s2k, boxter, Z/M3 may be right up your alley.
I like that. I need a bumper sticker like that on my M3.
But anyway, seems like there's a little bit of middle ground between a Miata and a Viper. I could be mistaken, or maybe you're just exaggerating to feel better about your cute, not-at-all-fast car.
-Colin
ps, and I'm not hostile-- just slightly opinionated. it's a sloooow car. I like turbo miatas just fine!
Other than to suggest Toyota could have put a higher hp engine in the MR2 (that Toyota has not apparently means nothing to your argument), you have yet to point out any other roadster make that provides a front engine, rear wheel drive with more hp at the Mazda price point.
And yes, you are being hostile, doing the old boy school locker room tough guy its a cute car thing. I bought the Miata because it was tossable fun with rear wheel drive which allows you to steer by kicking out the rear end the way God meant cars to steer.
In my opinion, buying a higher hp front wheel or awd car at the price is a cop out as the driver is taking real driving skill out of the equation. But I certainly see no reason to go to the CivicSi forums and waste everyone's time telling them they should not have bought fwd.
Then Accord got 240hp. Neons make 215hp claimed, it's more like 215 net HP at the wheels! C&D just clocked a Forester XT at 5.3 seconds to 60, that's quicker than a Porsche Cayenne S or a 911 Carrera.
So, it's all relative. The 911 Carrera is not a slow car by any means. It's just amazing what is being offered at very low price points.
That phenomenon has not spread to the roadster market yet, at least not the sub-$30k roadster market.
But the Altima SE, Accord LX V6, Forester XT, and Neon SRT-4 can all be had under $25 grand, so the horsepower race has hit the mainstream.
-juice
Well, mine revs to 7000rpm. If it makes you feel any better non-US market Miatas put out 157 HP with the same engine. It isn't Mazda's fault the US powertrain is hindered by emissions requirements, it is State of California's.
I still don't know what exactly is wrong with an iron block. Seems like many mainstream cars still use iron these days. If aluminum was so superior, shouldn't all engine blocks be aluminum by now?
I'm not asking for a 2300lb Viper, I'm just saying that 25-40 more horsepower would be really nice and easily within reach if Mazda (and more consumers?) cared.
I can see how it would be enough for some people... It's not enough for me.
-Colin
ps, yes it bounces off the rev limiter at 7k, but the engine is done making power at 6k and that last 1000 rpm comes rather slowly; might as well shift.
Hmm, the Subaru 2.5l isn't that big, and it's low too. Both engines are laid out longitudinally. The Miata would look cool with a big hood scoop...
;-)
-juice
For me, the FWD [and the bargain basement AWD WRX]is a more serious performance compromise than the supposed hp shortcoming.
You claim in your profile that you own an M3. One would hope a satisfied BMW owner would have long since realized the performance edge with RWD.
For me, the only possible alternatives to the Miata would have been the Z4, Vette, or the Spyder (the motorcycle on four wheels that is the S2000 is not for me). My work schedule keeps me out of my car for most of the week. So spending a lot less on the Miata made sense to me.
Where you are missing the point is that when some of us look to buy a less expensive toy, we look at the drive train format first. For us, the real compromise is putting a big engine on a cheap fwd platform.
My Forester has more miles than my Miata, and it's far more refined. The Miata is more fun, but no way would I say the Subaru feels more bargain basement, the opposite is true.
Edit: Colin rides a sport bike and I think perhaps he's become addicted to serious acceleration, at a minimum it's spoiled him on cars like the Miata, which seem slow to him (but aren't IMO).
-juice
Here though I'm talking about powerplants only. I'd like to see more "umph" out of the Miata for the $ it takes to get into one... No question I'd take an underpowered Miata over an underpowered FWD lightweight any day of the week!
It's no claim... I do own one. Who is being hostile now?
-Colin
Ateixeira: My comment, admittedly cryptic, refers to the appearance of the WRX. I am a strict RWDer, and have not even sought to test drive a WRX.
I respect that other people like AWD, and will take you on your word that the WRX is a good car.
If the Miata comes out in it's NC version with ~40 more horsepower, it WILL have a $30k+ sticker. It will also price itself right out of existence like the RX-7 and the 300ZX before it. Demands for more power resulted in "faster" cars with higher prices that nobody would pay.
I know you would like to see a $20k, 200hp Miata but that just isn't going to happen, it can't be done, not if Mazda wants to stay profitable and continue building the greatest selling roadster of all time.
You're letting Mazda off the hook far too easily. Did the Sentra see a price hike when Nissan upped its output? How about the new Mazda 6's rather potent V6?
I'm only asking for another 20-40 HP, not HUGE horsepower. (Who is missing the point?) Someone will fill the niche between an $32k S2000 and a mid-$20k Miata.
-Colin
FWIW, put a fatter rear sway bar on a 5 speed Subie and you can swing the tail out and control it with the throttle.
The automatics default to 80/20 power split, so they fell more like FWD, but 5 speeds are 50/50 default. If you get the tail out and add throttle, power shifts to the front and pulls you out of a drift, very fun, very un-FWD-like.
Put it this way, in the snow, the Forester is as "tail-out-fun" as the Miata is on dry pavement.
The Miata is downright scary in the snow (even with my working rear LSD and all seasons).
-juice