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Comments
It just seems to me that people are expecting too much. I remember my buddy who had a first generation Civic. The car was unbelievably small and chintzy. Another friend of mine had a 5th generation Civic. (One of the best econo-cars ever built IMO) But it was still a very small car. This new Civic is big. They've made the car noticably bigger and given it an advanced engine that's peppy and gets awesome milage. But they've had to cut corners to keep the price down. I can live with that, it's what I expected.
My impression has always been that Honda's reliability is a little better than Mazda's. Overall, I think they are pretty close though.
I guess I was making some assumptions here that reliability would continue, but so are you. Both the Protege and the Civic are brand new. My cost of ownership comparison assumes that reliability for both will be about the same, but the Civic get's significantly better fuel milage.
There's been quite a bit of anectotal evidence here that there are lots of problems with the new Civic. Just keep in mind that the Civic is a very popular car, and when people are having problems, they are more likely to post a message about it than if everything is going fine. I'll balance those out here by saying I have 11,000 miles on my LX coupe so far and have not had any problems.
They do, however depreciate much faster than a Civic.
Something to think about...
My point is simply that some of your percieved loss of quality in the Civic has probably been offset by other improvements that you are not taking into account. The Civic in it's current form is still a good value. Maybe it doesn't fit some people's needs as well as the older models, but for most people, some of the changes such as the size are a real improvement. If it goes 5mph slower on a slollem course, that's fine as long as I can fit my mountain bike in the trunk.
KBB.com City MPG specs - Civic 32/Protégé 25.
Conservative standard of 12,000 miles per year, and $1.50/gal.
That's $157.50/yr difference.
You guys decide on other buying criteria.
Great Britain probably has produced the least reliable vehicles of any country in the world. Quality control is virtually non existent in Great Britain when it comes to cars being sold to the general populous. (This does not include the Rolls Royce which isn't for the general population).
The Labor (or in Britain--Labour) Party has caused companies such as British Leyland and Austin-Healey to fold. Names such as the MGB, Austin-Healey 3000, Jaguar, and Cooper were some of the least reliable cars ever built.
I hope Honda has trained their British auto workers a lot better than when they produced the vaunted Sterling!
Anselmo, that was my reaction also.
I don't understand the business decision but will have to trust they know what they are doing.
As long as they don't come right hand drive.
British-car notoriety) is now TRW - and TRW supplies parts to most automotive companies.
However, the rise of Jaguar as a respected producer of high-quality automobiles removes the old myth about the output of British workers. Most of the cars produced at the nadir of the British auto industry were products of the nationalized British Leyland, or, probably worse, Chrysler (after it took over and destroyed
what was left of Rootes Motors).
Just as Ford has injected quality into Jaguar, I suspect that Hondas built in Britain will be totally different in quality from past British models.
The build quality is not so much to do with the "output of the British worker" vs. the Mexican worker vs. the American worker etc., but instead the output of the Honda worker independant of nationality
The Sterling was supposed to be an affordable 'Jaguar' with hand stitched leather seats, real wood accents, etc....classic British luxury with Japanese reliability. I still remember the Sterling sales brochure..."Only Master craftsmen designed the Sterling 825 sedan"..
what a piece of crap tha car turned out to be!
It was pulled off the US market in the early 1990's.
I believe the Honda/Rover partnership still exists today but the Sterling name, albeit long forgotten, was yet another Honda attempt to agressively capture the newly created market for high end Japanese luxury sedans.
1986-88 Sterling 825
1989-92 Sterling 827
Those Sterlings were certainly nice cars when they worked. The first car I've ever seen with heated adjustable power seats in back. A freind of mine bought several because the resale was so good after they quit selling them. You could buy a loaded low milage car that sold for $40K new for $5000 after a couple years. Eventually he got tired of fixing it all the time and gave up though.
Rover has serious problems. Even after BMW bought them, they couldn't turn Rover around. BMW ended up taking a huge bath when they sold Rover. They were so weak after that that GM almost managed to take BMW over.
As I've said before, I'm sure the British would have plenty to say about what Detroit put out during that decade. They still complain about build quality in the few US made cars that are sold over there such as the Neon.
Nothing said so far has convinced me that the 02 Si will have nothing less than the usual high standard of constuction.
Does Honda just shovel components into a big box and ship it to the dealers? Does anybody work in quality control there? I am torn between shouting out to the world that the 2001 Civic is a piece of junk, or quietly trying to resell it to some other unsuspecting bonehead, just like Honda did to me.
This just came in the mail yesterday:
June 2001
Safety recall: Civic fuel pump connector
Dear civic owner: this notice is sent to you in accordance with the requirements of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act.
What is the reason for this notice?
Honda Motor Co. Ltd. Has determiend that a defect rrlating to motor wehicle safety exists with the fuel pump in certain 2001 Civic sedans. The fuel pump may fail due to corrosion of an electrical terminal. If the pump stops working, the engine will stall without waring, and a crash could occur.
What should you do?
Call any authorized Honda automobile dealer and make an appointment to have your vehicle inspected. If necessary, the dealer will install a new fuel filter kit that includes new terminals for the fuel pump connector. This repair will be done free of charge. Please plan to leave your car for at least half a day to allow the dealer flexibility in scheduling.
Bla bla
Honda Consumer affairs Dept
800 999 1009
Only in North America!!!
I hate to make generalizations, but I have been to some of these economically depressed regions and alcoholism is typically higher in these places than the national average. Do I want hung-over hillbillies doing the quality control reviews on my vehicle? Well, I'm not exactly thrilled with the U.S. built product I purchased. Makes me wonder if my car was built on the infamous Monday or Friday. Let's not forget many of the component suppliers come from the very same redneck belt.
I also wouldn't rule out the 4 cyl Altima that is coming out in September (that is if you are willing to live with some of the problems associated with a car in its first model year). The design on this car is quite fresh.
VW Jetta.. Made in Mexico..Dare I say more?
I wouldn't buy any VW car that is made in Mexico.
There is no evidence that a VW made in Mexico is any different in quality than those made elsewhere. The VW management doesn't lower the quality control threshold for their Mexican plant because they think that they cannot reach that level. The standards are the same.
Deciding between a Civic and a Golf is like comparing apples to oranges. The Golf is a more upscale, luxurious car and the Civic is more pedestrian. I wouldn't necessarily get a Civic because of the perceived better reliability. The new Civic has had a its share of problems in its first year. Driving the Golf right after a new Civic, makes the Civic feel like a cheap car.
It just seems that once they get around 75-80,000 miles on them they become plagued with problems.
Mostly electrical and cosmetic things.
It gets to the point that I want to take the jump box with me since I figure the VW probably won't start on our lot.
Not a slam...not meant to be a pro-Honda post but just my honest opinion.
Has anyone else experienced a problem with this? This really concerns me because the dealer obviously doesn't know the root cause, and I picked the Civic because of its safety rating.
Another example is the cost cutting measure on the Civic's exhaust system. Take a close look, it looks as if it came out of Midas.
Civic changed their suspension in order to build a more spacious car with even better crash test results than they had before.
FIVE STARS! How about that?
Instead of jumping to the conclusion this was a cost saving move, you might want to reconsider since the handling wasn't affected.
Exhaust system? What in the world are you talking about? They were able to re-route things to the point they created a flat rear floor!
Sounds like pretty smart engineering to me!
Isellhondas claims that the handling is a lot better on the 2002 Civic by going from a "wishbone" to a McPhearson strut suspension. I have to diagree with you regarding the handling as I have driven both the 2002 and 2000 model Civics. There is no comparison in handling as the wishbone is far superior to the new Civic with the McPhearson Strut. Just ask anyone that races or road rallies their Civics.
The exhaust system on the new Civic does look cheap compared to the 2000 Civics. It also rusts faster which tends to prove that Honda is using less costly materials. This is the point I feel that Anselmo is trying to make. It does look like a muffler shop system.
5 Stars is great for crash tests isellhondas! Overall though, the new Civic looks nice but Honda did cut some corners.
Have you by any chance been a mechanic in your life and been certified to work on Honda Civics?
What technical training have you had to consider yourself an expert?
What experience have you had in the understanding of parts produced by various suppliers? When you can answer any of these questions with facts detailing your technical experience, I will listen as well as many others that read your comments.
It is your opinion to call me wrong but it is your opinion and yours only. Like I stated before, you might be a great salesman but you are lacking in technical expertise regarding Honda automobiles.
The professionals tell us that the 2001's handle as well if not better than the 2000's.
And, to me, anyway, that certainly seemed to be the case.
But...let's suppose that you are correct...let's assume the 2001 doesn't handle quite as well as the 2000's...O.K.?
Most people, the VAST percentage of potential buyers could care less! They like the improved safery and interior room...O.K.?
Paulo...a couple of things...
First, I never said, as you stated that the handling of a 2002 Civic is "much better" than a 2000. For one thing, the 2002's haven't come out yet so I assume you are talking about a 2001?
Exhaust systems...what makes you think they "rust faster"? At this early stage it's pretty unlikely that any car's exhaust system would be rusty....just curious.
Although sales of the 01 Civic are pretty good, Honda expected much higher sales considering this was a newly designed model. If sales are sluggish this year, what will Honda do to increase sales since it is stuck with this poorly executed model for the next 4 years? Maybe they will start offering standard alloys on the EXs.
I don't know that the introduction was "poorly executed". Honda is a pretty savvy company and I expect that they will continue to make running changes and improvements that will create excitement for the product.
I guess we will find out...!