Jeep Liberty: Problems & Solutions

kittel

Picked up my Liberty Limited the end of Nov. and at the very beginning was extremely disappointed in the mileage. Best I could do was 13 to 15 on the highway, which is what most of my driving is. Called Chrysler and talked to the dealer, both of them said, give it some time it needed to break in. Well I can't remember the last time I purchaed a vehicle that needed a break in period, so I wasn't sold on that theory. I now have 4700 miles on it and the mileage has gone up to 19 and 20, not bad for a 4000 lb. vehicle. This isn't a Toyota or Honda suv or a Ford Escape, it's a Jeep. It's a truck meant to do serious offroading, not just go to the soccer field or pick up groceries. This isn't a knock on the others but Jeeps are used by people who do offroading and that is why it weights what it does. With the mileage I am presently getting I am very pleased and I guess they were right when they said a break in was needed.

vin_weasel

I was just skimming the Liberty forum on Jeepsunlimited.com and came across this:

http://forums.jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/003069.html

It looks like there might me a flaw in the design of the IFS that only becomes evident under off-road use. In short, the centre section, a Dana 30 diff, can flex on its mounts while the driveshaft connecting it to the transfercase does not flex enough. Apparently when off-road this can cause binding between the two and the aluminum (not steel!) case cracks, probably over time.

mad0865

Vin, I'm a member of the Jeep Unlimited club as well, and as you know, there are only two members with that problem. Not enough to claim that the sky is falling. You, nor I know what those two members were doing when their front diff's cracked.

vin_weasel

Hey, the sky isn't falling. Never said it was. I just provided a link to the thread and a quick recap of what was said.

We do know that one of the guys was off roading and the stress of that sitation seemed to be the cause. I just thought that people should know what happened someone who went off the beaten track. Will it happen to any others? Beats me.

I hope this isn't a problem that shows up again and again because the IFS on the liberty seems to be the strongest around. I'm sorry if my post came off as Liberty bashing.

soulfinger

I agree. No need to panic. I believe the real issue for the *two* folks involved (a very small number considering how many Libertys have been sold) is that in one case the dealer honored the warranty and in the other case a second dealer did not. I'd be very upset if mine broke while being used as directed and the dealer wouldn't fix it under warranty.

soulfinger

Flippy -- I was surprised how soft those plastic parts are. Particularly the molding strip on the doors. It's almost a magnet for parking lot dings. I live near a gravel quarry, so I'm constantly getting pelted with small stones when driving behind the gravel trucks. First thing I did was buy the Mopar front-end cover. It looks pretty sharp, and my front end is still relatively unblemished. Only thing is you're not supposed to get it wet, which I found kind of odd. After driving on some dirt and gravel roads, I got some pretty bad pockmarking on the lower front of the rear fender flares from stones kicked up by the front tires. I added the Mopar molded splash guards and haven't gotten any new marks. I fumed about the pockmarks in the fender flares for all of a couple of hours, then I said what the heck -- it's a Jeep. Don't even notice them now. But really, the Limiteds should come with the splash guards standard. Or the black fender flares like the Sport models.

atay71

I just wanted to share a few thoughts about my 2002 Jeep Liberty, Limited, 4WD. Firstly, what a great looking vehicle! Chrysler really hit the mark with the Liberty's exterior and interior looks. It couldn't be much better. The ride is nice and smooth (though a bit unstable from side to side in high winds), and acceleration is great for such a heavy vehicle. Gas mileage is simply horrible, but hey, it's a Jeep and I read the MPG rating before I bought it, so that's my problem. (I am currently getting a combined average of 13.9 MPG.)Now, to the disappointment... Firstly, a couple design flaws...the center mounted window controls are fine, but are easily bumped when putting a cup into the cup holder, rolling down the windows. Also, the control switch for the heated seats turns on by simply getting in and out of the car about 30% of the time on both the passenger and the driver's side. A really unpleasant feeling on a hot day! The controls should be re-designed or relocated. The paint of the driver's side door molding is rubbing off a bit. Now the MAJOR problems...At 3,900 miles the transmission failed due to rusted-out connctions and faulty computer controls, transmission fluid leaked from around the main seal/gasket, and acceleration from a stop was horrible...you needed to floor the gas pedal to get moving. I took the Jeep in for service and the problem was fixed in about two days at the shop. Next... at 8,000 miles, the transmission failed again...same problem, same symptoms, same solution...spent four days at the shop waiting for parts. Next...13,000 miles and the same problem!!! Except in addition, the car wouldn't accelerate over 60 miles an hour without loud engine revs and a burning smell in the cabin. The car also lurched forward violently (like you were being hit from behind by another car) whenever shifted into drive. The car also whined, whirred and buzzed when put into neutral and actually moved forward at about 3-4 miles an hour when in NEUTRAL! When shifted from park to drive, the transmission sounded like someone threw a handful of rocks into a blender. After spending a week at the dealer I have my Liberty back again, wondering just when this problem will surface again. Considering trading this lemon in and cutting my losses! Beware...the Liberty looks great, but is plagued with problems.

soulfinger

YOUR Liberty sound like a lemon. Three times, same problem, right? On the other hand, mine, and thousands of others, are great. They don't all stink. Please don't speak for me when you post your rants.

mad0865

Thanks Soul; no , the Liberty doesn't stick all around. Have had an awesome experience with mine, and wouldn't trade it in for nothing. Sorry for your troubles, hope the lemon law helps.

twomac25

Thanks to all who reported feeling unsafe and tippy in Liberty. We're in the market for a small SUV and haven't found any we like. Didn't care for the looks of the Liberty but loved the interior. Roomy, well made and comfortable.

Drove one today after reading posts on this site. Tried pushing it a little - like an emergency lane change or avoiding some thing in road. Jeep felt like it was going to flip. I've driven lots of different types of vehicles and have never felt like I could flip one over at will. Felt this way in the Jeep. Even remainder of trip back to dealer, I didn't feel safe.

soulfinger

As far as I can tell, twomac, this is the first time you've posted in the Jeep Liberty problems group. And scanning back through the other posts here, I don't see too many where people complain about the Liberty feeling tippy. So "all those who wrote" doesn't seem to be a very big number. If you don't like the Liberty, fine. Please don't buy one. Lots of people love the Liberty, so you might as well save it for someone who will appreciate it. Mine's great, and it's solid as a rock. I'd advise all who are interested to drive one and judge for themselves. I absolutely disagree with your assessment. Of course it's more top-heavy than a car, but that could be said for just about any SUV. Remember it's a truck, and drive it like one. That's all you have to know.

tbunder

liberty lower sitting than the xterra? and you don't hear people bashing the xterra for feeling "tippy". i believe it is a lot higher, it has taller tires and the ugly roof sits up a lot higher. all suv's will tip, but you don't go around trying to do it. a good driver knows how NOT to make one tip in an emergency driving situation. try to keep it straight and just brake. no sudden steering changes. i drove a liberty last week cuz im thinking about buying one. man, was i incredibly impressed. the engine was extremely powerful, it felt just as if not more powerful as my ranger's SOHC 4.0 engine i had. i made some lane changes as well, and i didn't feel any more danger if any than my older explorer sport felt. brakes and steering were first rate, along with rock solid suspension feel over road bumps. i want one bad, only i will put on bfg at tires in the stock size. anyone changed tires yet? i hope to join you guys' "ring". chow

andy81

Regarding your comments twomac. I think perhaps that you just need to get used to driving a 4WD as they all (and I mean all with no exceptions) feel a bit like that to some degree. I got my Cherokee Sport (Liberty) last week and on the w/end took it up to the hills, and driving around some fairly fast corners found that it handled very well for the type of car that it is. By this I mean that initially on any major change of direction the car feels like it is leaning outwards. This is also made worse if you are the type of driver that breaks in a bend rather than accelerating, or breaking before entering the corner. However once into the corner the KJ feels great and very well balanced - especially as the steering is so good.

Believe me - you will get used to it and I will bet any money you like that you couldn't tip a KJ over changing lanes or going around a corner no matter how fast you are going. That said I would still drive it in a manner that suits the style of car that it is - a great truck that is heaps of fun to own.

ladyliberty

Hi, Just wanted to let you know that I too own a white Limited. First let me say I love this truck. I truly believe with ANY vehicle you will have problems.
I just wanted to let you know that I noticed after washing mine one day. I took off my spare tire cover and washed that tire too. Well I left off cover for about a day or two. When putting it back on I noticed a yellow spot on my rear bumper underneath the spare tire. I tried washing it. My husband even gave me some spot remover stuff and I could not get all of it off. I remembered reading quite sometime ago. That Chrysler started adding the spare tire cover deal to the limited's because of the film on the tire dripping on the bumper and causing this problem. WEll I did not think one time of removing the cover would do this. So to say the least. I probably will never take my cover off again.
I have also noticed two small chips in front right bumper. I plan to get touch up paint at the dealer. It did seem as though it would peel off pretty easy. When I get paint I will show them that plus rear bumper and question it.
The only other "problem" I have had was I had to have my fuel pump replaced. After about 4wks of owning it. On a Monday I started to hear a humming noise coming from the rear cargo area. I told my husband and he said FULL PUMP. So I called Bancroft Motor's where I bought it. They got me in Friday (my choice) and agreed fuel pump. They replaced & did my FREE oil change and I picked it up on time and off I went.
I have done a lot of reading since last July. I bought my Jeep at the end of January. This is new out for this year and I do expect first year problems. I will keep reading to hopefully get all the info I need to keep my Jeep experience a happy safe one. Again, I do love this vehicle. It's solid,comfy & I feel very safe in it.
Thanks to all those who post.
LadyLiberty

badliberty

Just read about 100 "Liberty problem" postings. Shocking! I'm more convinced now, that
the Liberty has serious quality control issues.
There may be some good ones out there but, I noticed a striking amount of similarity in the
postings that points to consistent, repeatable
problems. I felt like someone took the words
out of my mouth on several of the complaints. Namely the pulsating brakes (fixed by re-surfacing
the rotors on mine), the vibration the faster you
drive it (still not fixed after 4 dealer visits, and, after reading here, I'm thinking suspesion or
transmission flaw, that may not be fixable), tire
balancing attempts, and the pulling to the right
(dealer fixed alignment, but is that now contributing to the vibration somehow?) Frustrating! as the one person put it. Paid over
$25,000 for mine, so I can have all this fun!
I'm ready to sign any class action lawsuit against
Daimler, (my email is dsnowb8594@aol.com), meanwhile I'll try to invoke the lemon law, but
the way it's written in Florida, about "substantially" impaired operating condition, leaves my vibration in a gray area since it's only
really bad at 70mph+. Still wrong!!!

yippyia

I have to agree that the Liberty is a bit squirrelly especially in slippery conditions (possibly due to its extreme weight). Between being an early Bronco driver and an ex-Montero owner I think I have a couple of good comparisons. As an on/off-road vehicle the specs are very impressive. I'm a little un-nerved by the potential IFS design flaw. I chose this car for its off road prowess and on road comfort....I am willing to forgo some handling issues to keep my off-road ability but if I have to give that up too..

mad0865

I think if you read the "Liberty Forum" you'll see that the issues that you're speaking of are not the norm, and that you're one of the few. Re-read them, they are going over the same issues over and over. 100 issues? really? There aren't even that many stated TSB's on the NHSA website. Maybe a truck isn't for you. A lot of people get a Liberty thinking it's the next SUV craze, but remember. IT's A TRUCK. It drives like a truck, and handles like a truck. Good luck on your next purchase.

yippyia

I've been away from the discussion for awhile but scrolling through the problem reports here I see alot that I have encountered with my own Liberty (although not to the same degree) - the vibration, the transmission clunks, etc.... The vehicle is not 100% bullet proof. Keep in mind however this is the first year model for this vehicle and some wrinkles are to be expected. The quality control issues sound like they are coming from the lack of follow-up and support from the dealership and/or manufacturer which is unfortunate as service can be a large factor in a purchase decision.

mjsturg1

I just bought a Liberty and I assumed that all vehicles came with anti-lock brakes but of course I was wrong as mine did not ...What is the advantage or disadvantages of anti lock brakes? I find it funny that the dealers ordering vehicles order tow packages, cd changers etc and not anti lock brakes ( mine did come with the side air bags though-thank god)...appreciate any info thanks.

soulfinger

If you're driving on pavement, anti-lock brakes can be a big advantage because you can steer and brake at the same time. Not everyone likes them and many, many people don't know how to use them properly. Off-road, anti-lock brakes are at best a nuisance. The Liberty has a system that is supposed to defeat the ABS when in 4WD-low gear, but it would be better if you could simply disable it when you want to. Most of the time if you're in 4WD-low, the only brakes you need are gravity and friction. In 4WD-high, the ABS is downright aggravating. But since I (and most everyone else) do most of my driving on pavement, you have to decide what's more important. I went with the ABS and haven't been disappointed. ABS is standard on some vehicles and an option on many more. You've got to check before you buy. Best advice now is to live with what you bought. Adding ABS now would be very expensive.

mkaye

Although I don't own a Liberty, and can't tell from the pictures, does the Liberty ALLOY wheel rim have a smooth lip so that you can only use the clip on balance weights on the INSIDE lip of the rim? I see the steel wheel has a lip on the outside for clip-on weights. If the tire/wheel is only balanced by a clip-on weight on the inside lip only, it will likely never balance correctly. My Cherokee was this way and I finally resorted to stick-on weights just behind the 'spokes' of the rim to get a proper balance.

At least something to check.

soulfinger

Mine have the weights on the outside.

znail25

I have a Liberty and I was washing it the other day when I found that the rims have started to corrode already. I have the Mechanica Cast Aluminum Rims (Standard: Limited Edition) and I found that they have started to corrode from the center of the rim by the round jeep logo that snaps in the center of the rim. I find this odd considering how well they have been maintained. Not a scratch on them otherwise.
Check out your rims people and see if this is happening with your rims.
I know the finish on most factory rims won't last forever, but after 5 months this is unacceptable. I can only imagine what these beautiful rims are going to look like after one year.

milt721

Although DC maintains there is no problem, about a month ago they quietly started lowering all Liberties at the factory to make it less "tippy." For the record, Rick Deneau, a DC spokesperson, said the changes were made because Liberty buyers were taking it off road less than Chrysler had expected. (Duh, I said that before they were out, but I digress...) Something to consider, especially if you have a model built more than a month ago...

tidester

"Debris accumulation" in the engine compartment for 4.0-liter equipped models presented a fire hazard, Chrysler said Tuesday

Read about it here.
tidester
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cdkelly23

It always amazes me to read some of the comments on here. People are concerned with rollovers.

Having witnessed how people drive, it's no mystery why certain vehicles roll over. The Liberty is a truck, and is not ment to be whipped around sharp curves and bends at 50 and 60 miles per hour. Same can be said of other SUVs.

Yet, every day I see idiots in their SUVs weaving in and out of traffic at 60 mph, going around curves as though they are driving a Camaro or TransAm.

The Liberty doesn't hug the road the way a sports car would. So, why would one expect to drive it the same way?

Yes, SUVs can roll over. Libertys can roll over. But, for people who know how to drive such vehicles, I would venture to say rollovers are not high on their concern list of things that can happen.

soulfinger

But of course that recall doesn't affect the Liberty, which doesn't use the 4.0.

soulfinger

Consumer Reports found no rollover problem with the Liberty. I've never felt like mine was tippy. Glad I bought when I did if DC is going to lower them unnecessarily. If I wanted a car, I'd have bought one.

andy81

Have to agree with you wholeheartedly here soulfinger. I think my Cherokee has just gone up in value thanks to DC lowering them - it certainly has in my opinion.

Also re: you ABS comments - bang on. I have always presumed that car companies simply won't allow for driver activated ABS because of legal implications (ooops I forgot to turn it on and I've crashed = must sue someone). A shame as I wish I had ABS for 90% of the time on mine, but I just couldn't stand it for dirt roads and offroad.

BTW. I now have 1500kms on mine and I heard my first 'clunk' this morning. Seems to be when you apply power from a standing start and sounded like a drivetrain noise. Not too worried - just note it down and I'll get the dealer to look at soon.

Also one other problem with mine - in Oz they fit rear mudflaps that are very long. Ripped one off while reversing in a paddock as it was pushed into the tyre. I knew this would happen and am now trying to order some smaller ones. I notice Mopar stock them but they don't have any pics on their site. Has anyone fitted mudflaps and used them offroad and had no problems (like them ripping off all the time).

Thanks,

Andy

donsur

I bought my Liberty August 2001 and now have over 7000 miles on it. It is a fully loaded Limited edition 4x4. I paid around 26K for it. It has been back to the dealers twice for the normal factory services. I have had absolutely no problems to date. I have driven in the snow with 4 wheel drive, on dry pavement and a short stint in the woods. Everything works fine and I am very pleased with this vehicle. I live in north Georgia and the mountain roads here have lots of twists. I have not experienced any tippiness or squirrly handling. I drive at highway speeds every day (70 mpg) in and out of rain - all with perfect handling. I came from a Nissan crew cab pickup truck and my wife has a MB ML320 that I drive from time to time. The Liberty handles just as well as the MB and a whole lot better than the Nissan - plus it is quieter than both of them.
Anyway - take it for what it's worth, I like my Jeep Liberty and so far it likes me. I anticipate we will be together for a long long time.

jca217

I own a 2002 Jeep Liberty with ABS and 4WD. Twice this weekend while making a turn I heard a LOUD clunking sound that sounded like my tire rim cracked or something. Once going forward and once while in reverse. Both times it was raining and both times I had the car in 4WD. The noise was quite unsettling and I don't know if there is a correlation between the rain or 4WD, but it almost sounded like my transmission dropped! Anyone else experience this? I have 1200 miles on the car!

cdkelly23

Does your Liberty have "Select-Trac" or "Command-Trac" 4WD?

From my understanding, if you don't have full-time 4WD, you shouldn't use 4WD in the rain. This has the potential of messing up your transmission.

I have the non-full time Select-Trac (or is that Command Trac? I always confuse the two), and NEVER use 4WD on wet roads. I only use 4WD on snow and ice.
I would refrain from using 4WD until you have your Jeep dealer check this out as soon as possible.
Hope you don't need a new tranny. But, that should be covered under warranty.

div2

Why would you need 4WD in the rain to begin with? Sounds like axle windup to me; assuming that its a part time system...

soulfinger

That definitely sounds like your axle is binding up. The fact that it happened while you were turning is a dead giveaway. Were you in part-time or full-time 4WD? It's OK to use full-time 4WD in the rain. Part-time 4WD is only for very slippery surfaces. Thoroughly read the section on 4WD usage in your owner's manual. Depending on which 4WD setup you bought, you may not have full-time.

jca217

Thanks for your comments. I was in full time 4WD...in the rain. And both times when I was making a sharp turn. Should I not use 4WD in the rain? Also, do you think I did major damage to my tranny? The loud clunking sound only happened twice.

misslee

I recently had a pretty big wreck in my Libby and while the road condition (slick and icy) was the culprit, I have a concern.....I got hit on the front passenger side and the hit took my bumper and obliterated my passenger side headlight and grill....AND my air bags DID NOT DEPLOY.
I am not an expert by any means but I would have to say that with the force of the impact, those bags should have deployed. Has anyone heard of any similar stories? I wanted to check here before going to DC.

stever

Sorry to hear about your accident. Don't know what to tell you about the airbags - deployment is mostly up to the sensors (and the sensors usually aren't out in the bumpers where you'd expect them to be).

Here's an article, with some links at the bottom that may help as "background."

Steve
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flippy1

Have you had the recall performed? I understand that the problem may affect air bag deployment. Also, if you check out www.jeepsunlimited.com and go to the liberty forum, someone had a similar problem a few weeks ago and got in a major accident with no airbag deployment. I believe he contacted DC and had them do an inspection. Make sure your insurance co. takes a look also. It is serious business if a safety feature is not working properly on our cars. Keep us posted.

Hope you are doing okay!

stever

Good thinking flippy1 - there is a recall on certain Liberty models concerning the airbags. Summary information can be found in The Edmunds Maintenance Guide.

Steve
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kittel

I have a loaded Liberty Limited and have had 6000 trouble free miles. My only complaint was with the mileage. Since I hit the 3000 mile mark there has been a steady improvement. Started at around 13 mpg and now has risen to 19 to 20 mpg, which I consider very good for a 4000 lb. vehicle. I do consider the Liberty a "truck" and I drive it like a "truck". My fear with DC lowering the suspension on the Liberty is now anyone how rolls their Liberty. Will try and sue DC saying they lowered it because they knew they had a problem. The real problem is the driver not the truck. When you listen to some of the problems people have. You kind of wonder what people were thinking when they bought the Liberty, it probably looked "cute" to them. LOVE MY TROUBLE FREE LIBERTY.

stevek18

I'm really sorry to hear about the accident and damage to your vehicle. I hope you are okay.

Airbags deploy when there is sustained deceleration in the straight ahead direction, and the minimum speed is 10 mph or so. It really has nothing to do with the sensor location, you could measure severe deceleration almost anywhere on the vehicle, and there are usually at least two different types of sensors to double-check each other.

The only explanations I could think of are that (a) the impact was more of a side-impact and less of a frontal impact, or (b) the vehicle was not going the minimum speed (10mph). Maybe if the vehicle were sliding and the wheels weren't turning very fast, but the vehicle was still moving rapidly (i.e. the vehicle didn't *think* it was going over 10mph)...? Some vehicles also sense the presence/absence of a passenger and will not deploy the passenger side bag if no occupant is detected - I have no idea if the Liberty has this feature.

The re-call about the broken wire only caused a delay in deployment as I understand. Airbag sensors usually come equipped with a very large capacitor anyway to provide stored power in the event of a power-loss situation.

richag1

i bought my liberty last month and noticed i would get real low on gas, on my gauge real quick ,so i recorded how many gallons i could put in the tank and it always seemed like the max was 11 or so. i took it to the dealer and a fuel sending unit was ordered, so hopefully that will solve that problem. also does anybody notice a slight rattle in the exhaust at idle, i have noticed it a few times, and the dealer was unable to reproduce the problem.

jafo2001

I'm sorry but I don't buy into this "blame the victim" nonsense. Having the car select the buyer and not the other way around.

Yes, the Liberty is a more to one extreme of the SUV scale that a Buick Rendezvous or something, and handles like it. BUT, any passenger vehicle travelling on the road should be expected to competantly handle simple evasive maneuvers without undo risk.

A Liberty may spend up to half it's time jumping boulders (for those 15% of the buyers) but the remaining 50% is on city streets where kids and dogs and backing cars do jump into the lane unannounced.

oldntired1950

So one reviewer was able to turn over a Liberty in high speed evasion maneuvers - this is certainly not the first truck to flip, nor will it be the last. SUVs and pickups have a high center of gravity and can turn over... this is a fact of life. You don't drive a Liberty as if it were a Ferrari. I've been driving mine for about 6 weeks and I find the handling to be very stable and predictable. I enjoy everything about it with the possible exception of the mileage, but my first trip of mostly highway driving from the Long Island shore to the lower Catskill mountains (about 325 miles round trip) averaged 20 MPG, and I can live with that. I have a truck that I feel is reliable and rather jaunty looking. As they say.... "to each his own" - isn't that what keeps selling Azteks????

jafo2001

Actually it was two magasines that made it tip. Obviously Chrysler did as well or they wouldn't have redesigned the suspension in mid year.

And saying "this is not the first truck to flip" is hardly a consolation.

soulfinger

Give it a rest. There's no problem. If you insist there is, go roll yours over and buy something else.

cdkelly23

I believe I have to side with Soulfinger on this one. I, too, get tired of reading about the rollover concerns.

I have a solution to help calm your rollover worried: SLOW DOWN.

The Liberty isn't a sports car. It's not made to be whipped around bends and corners at 55 and 60 mph. It is a truck. Trucks have to be driven in a different manner.

So, slow down. If you want to whip around corners at high speeds, perhaps you should be driving a TransAm or Camaro, and not a Jeep Liberty.

kittel

Great soulfinger, you hit the nail on the head, they should get something they are happy with. One of the major reasons for the suspension change was a smoother ride. But if someone insists on driving the Liberty like a Porsche, it will tip over, lowered or not. This isn't the fault of DC, only the driver behind the wheel.

muckyduck

I own a SUV (not the Liberty) and so I agree that any could roll, if not driven correctly. It is not a sports car!!
However, for a car maker to make a major modification to a model in production is quite something!! And I would seriously doubt it is for a smoother ride - if DC is saying that, then the owners of the Liberty better start a writing campaign. There is only one real reason DC has made this change to the Liberty and we know what it is! Car makers only make major changes when there is a recall/safety issue. I came very close to buying a Liberty this year - glad I did not.

jafo2001

As I understood it (and I could be wrong) they were simulating what would happen if you were doing 40 mph on a street and a kid suddenly jumped out in front of your car.

Nothing to do with sports cars or driving style.

Anyways since this seems to be such a touchy issues, that's all I'm going to say about it from now on.