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Buick Rendezvous Prices Paid and Buying Experience

Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
edited March 2014 in Buick
Post the details of your buying experience here.

KarenS
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    mfarmer2mfarmer2 Member Posts: 67
    My husband and I test drove a Rendezvous today (Central Florida). MSRP with the luxury package was $28,760. The dealer offered to sell it to us for $26,800. This is without a trade-in. We estimated that to be about 600, or so, over the invoice. I just checked Edmunds' TMV appraiser, and it must be dated, because their quote was over a 1k more.

    In addition, GMAC is offering some very aggressive leasing terms. With zero down, a lease interest rate of 3.53% which is approx .oo123 money factor, negotiated value was 26,800, residual 55%, 12000 miles per year, 36 month term, lease payments were quoted: $388.63 + $27 (7%) tax= 415.63. We were tempted to purchase right then, but have decided to hold off so we can sell our current car by ourselves. In the meantime, we're curious to know if anyone has done any better. Thanks for any input. :-)

    Mary
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    sounds like a very reasonable offer to me. Coupled with an extremely attractive lease offer and you'll be hard pressed to do better on any 2002 car, import or domestic.

    I personally haven't posted what I paid because I (and more than a few others here) purchased under the GM employee purchase plan. Employees pay a predetermined discounted price for the vehicle, which has no bearing on the current market.
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    mfarmer2mfarmer2 Member Posts: 67
    I wanted to follow up on my last message, because it turns out the deal I was try to negotiate above on the CX RDV was not actually 600 over invoice. After looking at the figures more closely, we realized the dealer was including hidden costs that were actually jacking up his price to 1200 over invoice.

    Fortunately, I know a lot about leasing, and was able to spot this very quickly. We immediately backed out of that deal, not so much because we didn't think it was a fair price, but because we hadn't really had a chance to carefully evaluate local pricing or compare with other dealer offers. Not taking anything personal, we did try to work with this dealer more, but the RDV was sold before we could come to a final agreement.

    The good news is we found an RDV from another dealer across town, and closed the deal last night. The price came to around 1000 over invoice, along with GMAC's special lease program: .00126 cost factor or 3.03% interest, 55% residual, $525 aquisition, first month payment and $400 deposit.

    I'm not sure I could say this is average cost of an RDV for my area (Central FL). We worked very hard to get this deal, not to mention the dealer had to do a dealer trade to get us this RDV because he'd sold every one he had on his lot. Edmunds' TMV, for our region, lists the RDV at a few hundred below msrp. Personally, I think that's a little high for my immediate area. I hope this information will be helpful to others. :-)

    To fedlawman- Thanks for your feedback.

    Mary
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    cwjacobsencwjacobsen Member Posts: 293
    Another reason I and perhaps others are not posting here is that many of us ordered our Rendezvouses through the pre-release pre-order program Buick ran last spring. We got some very good pricing for ordering our vehicles before they actually showed up in dealer's showrrooms and much like Fed's comment about employee discounts, the experience wouldn't be comparable to walking in and buying today. Though if you look at the really old posts from back in April and May, you'll see about a half dozen of us going through the angst of having got a "good deal" on vehicles we had ordered sight unseen. It's pretty humorous now that I think back on it.

    Personally, I don't think the Rendezvous is "overpriced" so you getting an invoice plus sort of deal on a new model seems pretty good to me.

    CWJ
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    mfarmer2mfarmer2 Member Posts: 67
    Thanks. I agree with what you say. I should have explained above that I wasn't just looking at the negotiated cap cost, but also at the fact that this went along with gmac's special lease program. Their very low lease rate (3.03%) really helped to bring our monthly payments down.

    Considering the availability of RDV's in my area (very few) and current market conditions, I feel we negotiated a very good deal! :-)

    Mary
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    boondocksboondocks Member Posts: 57
    I got a pretty good deal on my RDV. There's a great lease rate being offered here right now, through the end of September. I ended up with 3.05%, with a 52% residual. I bought extra miles up front, since I regularly put 18-20K miles per year on my vehicles. Negotiating a price was interesting, I've never done that before! They offered $2000 off the MSRP, but I knew that was still $1200 over invoice. I had a phone quote from another dealership from early last summer for $200 over invoice, so I offered that. He did the "talk with the manager" thing, and came back and said we had a deal! Actually, it was almost too easy....
    Final price was under $30K, and I put a little extra money down to lower my payments further, under $400 per month.
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    efunkhouserefunkhouser Member Posts: 1
    We picked up our RDV CXL yesterday and are very pleased with the price. We purchased at $200 over dealer invoice and 0% financing for 3 years. We were one of the folks planning on purchase next spring, but the 0% was too good to pass up. In addition, we live in Washington where sales tax is as important as dealer invoice. Therefore, we ended up buying from a dealer about 60 miles from home, but at a better price as well as a .8% savings in sales tax. Buyer beware...one dealer had a dealer invoice stated at $200 over invoice but had shipping and handling $400 over what was expected. Funny how that works.
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    jwsmithjwsmith Member Posts: 46
    Did A GMBuyPower search to find what we wanted and got a price we could live with (could have done better, but we're satisfied). MSRP was $35,056 and we paid $32,214 plus tax, title, and license. A pleasant, no hassle experience with a friendly and knowledgeable dealer. The finance rate moved our purchase up from a planned spring event - did the 2.9% for 48 months.
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    racyracy Member Posts: 2
    Just picked up my pewter metallic CXL. I took the comments from this discussion and made the offer of $200 over inv. One dealer said it was too low and the another that was 55 miles away didn't bat an eyelid. He even gave me $800 more on my trade in!!!

    So thanks to all of you. My buying experience was great with this dealer and seems to be a repeat of efunkhouser's!
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    This is my first GM car also (although my relatives have had several over the years). I too have been thrilled with the level of service that my Buick dealer has given me...I am treated like family whenever I go to the dealership (it's been a while now).

    If this level of service and reliability keeps up, I may never go back to foreign cars!
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    cwjacobsencwjacobsen Member Posts: 293
    I personally don't think that the Rendezvous is overpriced. But that said, it's great to hear people getting them at substantial discounts from MSRP. There are basically five near luxury crossover vehicles on the market. Each with its own particular strengths. Of those, the closest in low price are a fully optioned Rendezvous CXL and a base MDX. But once you factor in real world premiums for MDX's vs real world discounts for the Rendezvous, I think its clear that our vehicles give us a lot of value for our $s.

    CWJ
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    chauncinechauncine Member Posts: 6
    About a week before I purchased my RDV I ran across an email from GM titled "Keep America Rolling". In this email it mentioned something about a $500 e-coupon they had sent me in July.

    On the day the coupon was expire I called the last dealership in the phone book. They had my RDV but it had more features than I wanted. They accepted my offer of $30K and it was $.08 below invoice. I pulled out my $500 coupon and smiled. It was the easiest purchase I've ever made. I recommend Bob Tolkan Buick GMC very highly.

    Packer Fan
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    What a great story chauncine! $500 below invoice for a 2002...and good financing too, I assume?

    We also got more features than we needed (heated & memory seats) but now that we've lived with them, we are glad we ordered them. Definitely worth a few hundred more dollars.
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    chauncinechauncine Member Posts: 6
    2.9%- A couple weeks later a co-worker told me I should have waited because GM had extended the 0% financing to 60 months. I called GMAC that evening and found that it was for cars only. This is the same co-worker who told me his neighbor picked up a loaded demo RDV for $23k with 17K miles on it. He really liked the little navigation screen feature on it. (?)
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    cmeehcmeeh Member Posts: 3
    I bought a cx/luxury pkg, with leather,3rd seat, and tow package for invoice and with 0%financing for 36 months. Several dealers were willing to give me this deal. Overall, the dealer I bought from was wonderful. I found the car I wanted on the internet, called her up, took my car over to get trade in value that morning, and picked up my RDV that afternoon.
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    dorene1dorene1 Member Posts: 75
    Could you please tell me what part of USA you had such great luck with? Sounds great! Thanks -
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    cmeehcmeeh Member Posts: 3
    My 'pleasant transaction" was in Houston, Texas. I have only seen 3 other RDVs. Too many Suburbans and Tahoes here!!
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    mallaikmallaik Member Posts: 9
    Just got my RDV with cx/versality pkg, and tow package for $200 under (thats right UNDER!!!) invoice and with 0%financing for 36 months. Several dealers in Texas were giving this deal. They even got the color I wanted from another dealer 250 miles away by the next day. Looks like Texas is a Suburban/Explorer country, and RDVs are not moving fast.

    I think RDV is a great deal for the price with so many features.
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    $200 under invoice! Great deal on a great car.
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    venettavenetta Member Posts: 18
    My husband and I have been researching the Rendezvous and Mazda Tribute for the past 9 months and finally bought a Rendezvous yesterday. We purchased a CX Pewter with Versatility for $500 below invoice and the 3.9% financing for 60 months. All of the negotiating was done over the internet and completely hassle free! Thank you to all of the people in the forum who swayed us towards the RDV. We are very happy with our purchase and plan to pick it up today!:-) We are hoping to put in a wood dash kit and entertainment system. Has anyone installed either of these options on the RDV and do you have any suggestions on color of the wood with the gray interior? Also, the CX doesn't have a luggage rack although we did notice it does have the track running on the top. Can you just purchase the cross bars or has anyone installed this on their RDV? If so, what was the cost and where did you locate the rack. Thanks for the help and Happy New Year to everyone.
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    raven17raven17 Member Posts: 3
    can someone please help me figure out what the dealer invoice price AND MSRP is for (1) base of a RDV CXL and (2) the Luxury Pacakge with 3rd row seat --- edmunds numbers and my dealer numbers are way off ---also, thanks for your many comments -- I am close to buying
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    venettavenetta Member Posts: 18
    We just bought our RDV CX with Luxury Package last week and Edmunds numbers matched the dealers except for the advertising fee that Edmunds doesn't include in their price. Our dealer was very upfront with us and showed us his invoice paperwork which matched Edmunds numbers. I can't tell you what the exact MSRP or invoice is for the CXL, but if you price it on Edmunds and take a copy into the dealer they really can't dispute it. If they do, I would go to a different dealership because they are not being upfront with you. I also recommend using the gm buypower to get a price from your local dealers and then negotiate from that price with your Edmunds pricing. I live in the Cincinnati area and there were some dealers that would not go below $500 off MSRP, but the one that we chose went to $500 below invoice. Good Luck with your search, you will defenitely love your RDV!
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    richard103richard103 Member Posts: 13
    What should I expect to pay for a RDV w/ SD pkg and Sunroof (MSRP - $32,877)?

    What's been your experience? (Also posted similar message on main SUV board.)
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I didn't see your message on the main board.

    I think a few hundred over invoice is what most people are paying for RDV's.

    According to GMBuyPower.com and Edmunds.com, a CXL with 1SD and moonroof MSRP is $33,055. Invoice for this car is $29,750. Take into account the $2,002 factory incentive and your probably looking at about $28,000, give or take a couple hundred dollars.

    Good luck!
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    richard103richard103 Member Posts: 13
    Thanks for your reply. I've found RDV AWDs with three(3) different base prices ($27,452-27,552-27,730), depending, I assume, on manufacture date.
    The option prices have remained the same ($4,030 for SD pkg, and $695 for sunroof), but the destination charge has risen from $575 to $600.

    Also, I've had dealers quote me $100 to $150 over "invoice," but haven't actually seen an invoice yet. One dealer told me that the advertising fee was 1.5% of MSRP (less destination), which would equate to around $500.

    This seems rather high for an ad fee; I was expecting a number in the $200-300 range. What ad fees did other RDV buyers see when they purchased? Thanks.
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    The advertising fee issue has been discussed frequently on the Smart Shopper. Type "advertising" into Search.

    The following is from Edmunds.com FAQ:

    "Most vehicles carry a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or by regional dealer groups. National or regional advertising fees, when charged, should not exceed 1 percent of the vehicle's MSRP. Because individual dealership advertising is a cost of doing business, you should never pay an advertising fee levied by the dealer rather than a regional dealer association or the manufacturer."

    Hope this helps!

    KarenS
    Host
    Owner's Clubs
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    netnerdnetnerd Member Posts: 118
    Hi,

    I went to one dealership--Wilkie Buick--and told them I knew the invoice price (had gotten it from Edmunds) and asked them what the best price they could give me was. They came back with a price about $1100 over invoice. I told them that it was too high and the salesman went to "talk to his manager" and came back with a price $300 lower, but still $800 over invoice.

    I told him I'd have to think about it. I checked at several other dealerships and only one of them--Armen of Ardmore--had the exact RDV that I wanted (color and option combinations). I had to buy one of the ones on the lot in order to get the 0% financing which was scheduled to end at the end of October (it was around October 10th at the time), so I couldn't custom order one. Of course a week or so after I purchased mine GM extended the 0% for several weeks or months!

    I sat down with a salesman at Armen and told him I knew the invoice price and wanted to hear what the best price he could give me was. He went away to consult the computer and after what seemed like 25-30 minutes came back and said he was having trouble with the computer. He showed me what he said was the invoice and asked me how much profit I thought they should make over that. I said $200 and he said, "You've got a deal." (or something to that effect). I didn't close the deal at that point, though, because I thought I'd give Wilkie a chance to beat them.

    The price I had gone in to Armen hoping to get was actually higher than what I ended up getting. When he asked how much I thought they should make I figured I'd shoot even lower. Now, having read that some folks got theirs below invoice, maybe I should have gone even lower.

    I stopped by Wilkie that night and told him I'd gotten a better price at another dealer and that, in fact, the other dealer's invoice price was even lower. The sales manager at Wilkie then told me that it couldn't be the same vehicle because everyone pays the same invoice. I had found Wilkie to be the stereotypical slimy auto dealership so I suspected that they were trying to screw me. The invoice sheet Wilkie had showed me (which had an invoice price higher than Edmunds listed) was a sheet of paper with text only at the top and bottom but with a big blank spot in the middle. Armen's invoice sheet that was full of text, not just at the top and bottom which led me to suspect that Wilkie had copied a different vehicles invoice sheet but covered up the identifying information.

    The next day I stopped by Armen on my way to work and took a picture of the Rondy's window sticker with my digital camera. Then I called Wilkie and had him fax me a copy of the window sticker from the RDV I had looked at there (I was surprised when he agreed to do this!). I compared the two window stickers and they were the exact same vehicles.

    The one I was about to buy had 210 miles on it as it had been test driven a number of times and was apparently driven to Armen from a dealer in NJ during the course of a dealer exchange. The one at Wilkie had no miles, but when I had driven it for a three day extended test drive I was experiencing problems with the HUD which made me leery about buying it.

    I am buying on the 36 month 0% financing deal.

    I wish it had a longer warranty, though. One of my few complaints.

    Hope I didn't lose anyone with my rambling. I just wanted to put in all the important points I could think of.
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    rothlrothl Member Posts: 2
    I started my purchase odyssey in the middle of January when my '94 Transport started leaking oil.
    I liked the RDV with the versatility package and the rebate combined with my GM card dollars made the purchase tempting. I figured invoice to be 25,202.

    I first went to the websites. An autobytel rep called me with the "best deal out there" for a Rendezvous at 500 over invoice.

    I also notified GM buypower and an internet dealer from 45 miles away emailed me with a 600 over invoice bid. I noted on this forum that people are getting better deals and said as much when we spoke on the phone a few days later. He then came back with invoice- 25,202. Having not visited a dealer yet I said I was going to try to get it lower.

    I've used priceline for vacations and since I was ready to buy, I thought I'd give it a shot. If a dealer accepts my bid and I don't buy I'm out $100. If I do buy, then pricline takes $50. I bid 24960 and let them contact all the dealers in the Cleveland area. Got a notice the following working day that nobody accepted the offer. I spoke with a service rep at Priceline who said that nobody will go under invoice for RDVs.

    Visited the nearest Buick dealer and plopped the invoice e-mail on his desk and asked if he could match it. They had nothing on the lot that was even close to what I wanted. He told me that he didn't think he could get me the car at that price because "the price has gone up $200 in the last three weeks". He would try to locate a vehicle manufactured before the price increase but couldn't guarantee anything. I told him if he couldn't find a car at $25,202. I'd go back to the dealer and give him the shot. After hearing that he exclaimed,"we're gonna get this deal done."

    I figure I'll give the local dealer 5 more days and then return to the out of town dealer. It probably sounds like I'm being to selective on price but I buy a car every 4 years and am not too schooled on the art of dealing.
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    Although you may not be going that route now, I thought you may still be interested in this discussion Smart Shopper.

    PRICELINE.COM - experiences & comments on buying vehicles thru Priceline?

    Good luck finding your Rendezvous!

    KarenS
    Host
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    dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Anyone in Canada get a good deal on a base CX? Wondering how low dealer's will go up here?
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    nosuvyetnosuvyet Member Posts: 72
    got a loaded CXL for invoice + 400 and I talked to about 20 dealers by phone to get that.
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    richard103richard103 Member Posts: 13
    Picked up my new RDV (awd CXL, 1SE, third row seat, sunroof, white/gray leather) this weekend. MSRP was $34, 612 . . . dealer discounted it $3,200 BEFORE rebate, GM card credit, Olds Loyalty credit, and $500 lease cash. 36 month/45k-mile lease is $382 + 9% PA state tax, about $417 / month.

    So far, so good . . .
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    fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Everyone's getting such great deals!

    Welcome to RDV ownership!
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    rothlrothl Member Posts: 2
    It's been a two weeks and the $2002 rebate clock is ticking. Got a call last week that the dealer found a RDV and it was ready so I gathered up the family and trekked to the dealer. I was greeted by the salesman who shepherded us to the cleaned up vehicle. The kids climbed in the back and my wife plopped herself in the driver's seat. Someone she met at work told her that his wife loved the RDV, so she was in a lather. The salesman came around back to show me the 3rd row seat. UH OH. No seat. They got the wrong vehicle!(1SB instead of 1SC) Back to the drawing board.
    Showed up today and they found a RDV, but it had the moonroof and the premium sound system. The salesman said I could have it at invoice, $26111. After consulting with the female head of household, it looks like it's finally going to happen.
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    ppalonskyppalonsky Member Posts: 34
    Took delivery of our RDV two weeks ago. MSRP was:

    Base $27,452
    Option $7,105-1SE,3rdrow,sunroof,6CD,Captain Seat
    Dest $575
    Total $35,132

    Paid $32,000, before $2,002 rebate, which was Invoice + national add fee. The dealer agreed to take off the extra regional add fee charge. Overall I'm happy with the deal and we love the car.
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    nextmoonnextmoon Member Posts: 386
    Congrats! What color is it?
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    enniskillenenniskillen Member Posts: 87
    We ordered a CX yesterday with a G.M discount

    CX with 1SC package ( versatility) $29,570.00
    Sunroof 792.00
    trailer package 362.00
    freight 900.00
    Total $31,702.00

    without discount 36,500.00

    We ordered white, over the charcoal. Attention other Canadians, as usual we are being treated as second class customers. In Canada we can only get charcoal on the bottom of the vehicle, while the American customers have a variety of options to choose from. Also we are forced to purchase a 2500 dollar option group in order to get the third seat, while Americans can order it as a stand alone option for about 750 bucks. Are you listening GM, why do you treat Canadians as second class. The net allows us to compare notes now !
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    jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    New 2002 CXL with Luxury Package (1SE), 6 disc CD changer (UC6), 3rd row seat (AJ2), and sunroof (CF5): MSRP: $35,185. Dealer offered to sell for $32,548 (this is before $2002 cash back, which I know expired today but am hoping will be renewed). Any thoughts. Is this reasonable? Thanks in advance!
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    ppalonskyppalonsky Member Posts: 34
    I bought my RDV about 3 weeks ago. It stickered for $35,132 and I paid $32,002 before the rebate. I think you should be able to get a better deal than the one your dealer is offering. I found 2 dealers in my area who would sell me the RDV for invoice including the national advertisement fee (about $300) but subtracting off their local advertisement association fee which was on the printed invoice they showed me. Try the GM BuyPower feature on GM's web site to locate the car you want and get competative quotes from other nearby dealers.

    Paul
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    ramblewoodramblewood Member Posts: 2
    We are looking at a CXL "demo" with approx. 6000 miles. It is listed as a new car as it has never been titled. It if fully-loaded (captain's seats in back, third row seating, etc) but no towing package. The dealer is asking $31, 959 (MSRP sticker price is $35,257) which seems a bit high considering the 6000 miles it already has. Any opinions?
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    ppalonskyppalonsky Member Posts: 34
    Ramblewood:

    The car I bought for $32,002, before rebate, stickered at $35,132 and had 64 miles on it. Given the similar sticker price of the car you are looking at, I would think you could get a better deal on a demo with 6k miles.

    Paul
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    mojo_jojomojo_jojo Member Posts: 17
    Our sticker was at $35,365.
    Before rebate we were at $33,400 including a gm roof top carrier.
    Less rebate of $2002, final price $31,398. We have the CXL, w/luxury group, captain chairs, third row, sunroof and trailer towing package and a dealer installed hitch.
    Tell them to go back and sharpen their pencils. They are way off. Also, are you getting the rebate too, or are they already using the rebate to get to that number?
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    netnerdnetnerd Member Posts: 118
    I agree that you should be able to get a better deal than their offering you. I got my RDV for $200 over invoice. It had 210 miles on it (from demos and from a transfer from another dealer).

    Shop around and just ask dealers for the best price they can give you on the exact package you want.
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    ramblewoodramblewood Member Posts: 2
    We took all of your advice and looked around after the original dealer would not budge on the price for 6K mile demo. We ended up with a new, non-demo fully loaded RDV CXL (minus 6 disc CD and towing package) for $200 under invoice with 229 miles (had been transferred from another dealer). In addtion, the color is pewter with the dark bronzemist metallic lower accent color which we had not seen anywhere during our rather exhaustive search for a RDV.
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    netnerdnetnerd Member Posts: 118
    Sounds like you got a great deal!
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    jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    First, ppalonsky, thanks for your prompt reply (post 40).

    The dealer had to search to find the color we wanted (Pewter Metallic, Graymist cladding, gray leather interior) and the sticker price changed a bit. New 2002 CXL with Luxury Package (1SE), 6 disc CD changer (UC6), 3rd row seat (AJ2), and sunroof (CF5): MSRP: $35,585. Dealer sold it for $32,850 which is $95 more than Edmunds "True Market Value" in our area. Total price after rebate: $30,850. Thanks again for the posts here, which definitely helped!
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    maggieotmaggieot Member Posts: 2
    This forum is incredibly helpful! I feel like I have test driven every SUV on the market and had not found anything I liked. I was ready to purchase a beater and drive it for a couple years in the hopes that something better would come out soon.
    On the advice of a loved one, I test drove a Rendezvous last night and fell in love! I am looking to buy a CX, FWD with the versatility package. I can do without the 6 disc in dash changer and the sun roof. I did the Edmunds TMV thing but am still confused (sorry - I'm young and this is my first new car purchase experience). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks so much!!
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    jk27jk27 Member Posts: 244
    For comparison, I purchased a loaded CXL for almost $5K less than sticker price (after $2k rebate). I recommend you use Edmunds to price the car (and options) you want. Determine what the invoice price for the dealer is. That's your target price. If you can get it for invoice ... go for it. Usually, they will only sell above, but the closer to invoice, the better. Some people on this board set $200 over invoice as a goal. I found True Market Value to be extremely accurate in my area. Edmunds TMV for my vehicle was $95 less than what I ended up paying for it (before rebate). I was pretty impressed with how accurate TMV was. Perhaps some others who purchased CX's with versatility package can comment.

    Oh, and don't dismiss the 6 CD changer immediately. You get an upgraded speaker package with that package and it is, without a doubt, the best stereo system I've ever owned -- or even heard in any vehicle! Not having to shuffle/change CD's is very nice (and safer). Good luck!
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    kathy912kathy912 Member Posts: 8
    25,490 before rebate for CX with versatility package and I got them to throw in the roof rails. THis vehicle has 1,000 miles on it so I was able to get it under invoice. I almost bought the same vehicle with mudflaps and pinstriping for $900 more so I am happy.
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    chauhanchauhan Member Posts: 1
    Hi,
    Wondering if anybody has any idea what the base CX price is with GM employee discount. Does the dealer has to mention for sure that it is a GM employee price. I am asking because i am being quoted 29500 without 1SC package and it is very different than what "enniskillen" posted above.
This discussion has been closed.