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My suggestion regardless of my opinions on either dealer or situation is:
Buy what you want, for what you want to pay, from who you want to buy it.
The bus runs only on Tues., Thurs., and Friday. I couldn’t leave until Friday, Dec. 17. If I want to buy the car in San Jose, I’d have to call Thurs., Dec. 16, to make sure the car is still there.
I’m not keen on getting a car through a dealer trade, because that probably means someone else would be putting a few hundred miles on the car.
I believe a smog check costs about $50. The hassle doesn’t seem to me such a hassle. AAA can do everything for me except perform the smog check.
I’ll ask the Reno dealer about the SULEV vs. ULEV issue. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hyundai normally delivers only ULEV cars to Nevada. If the car doesn’t pass the smog check, I believe the car has to be tuned or altered or whatever so that it does pass the smog check. As far as I know, I cannot legally bring a car into California, where I reside, and continue to drive it, if it doesn’t pass the smog check.
Okay, you probably noticed that I said “I believe” a couple of times.
This whole process is beginning to seem so difficult. I'm taken aback by the thought that I could wait 2 to 6 weeks and still not get exactly the car I want. I haven't talked to any dealers in Las Vegas at this point, and haven't explored how someone without a car gets from here to there. A possibility I haven't looked into is driving a rental car one-way.
John
If you are considering Vegas, I believe Planet Hyundai is who you need to talk to. They are one of the top 10 dealers in the country, so their inventory should be impressive. Try to negotiate a dinner at the steak house in the MGM into the deal. The food is incredible there.
sedan in Moonlight Blue.
Options - Pkg 3 (cd player/cruise control)
carpeted floor mats
rear spoiler.
My price would be $14250.00, out the door. This
includes everything, tax...total price.
Good price??
I’ve been researching 2004 and 2005 cars since before the end of August when my 1983 Honda Accord died. The Cars folder on my computer is now 28.1 MB, most of it specs and comparisons downloaded from Edmunds.com. I test drove cars using a 2-page form I wrote up for each car. And, for 3.5 months I walked, took the bus, or rode with a friend.
Now it looks like I’ll be getting the exact car I want from Reno at a good price. Here’s the breakdown. Tell me what you think.
Subtotals
base 12,579.00 (invoice)
pckg 6 1,669.00 (invoice)
floor mats 56.00 (invoice)
dest. fee 545.00 14,849.00 (invoice)
adv. fee 392.00 15,241.00 (invoice)
doc. fee 299.00 15,540.00
off-lot fee 8.41 15,548.41
7.37% tax 1,145.92 $16,694.33
Rebate -1,250.00 $15,444.33
Off-the-lot: $15,444.33
Since the sales tax in my county is 7.75%, I’ll have to pay an additional $59.08 in tax. Then there’s the smog check (about $50) and California registration ($113?) and insurance ($?).
The Reno dealer says that they expect to have the car by the end of December, but they don’t guarantee this date.
Did they order the car or just preference their allotment? I’d guess the latter, but they say they haven’t had a problem getting what they want. Since they’re a big Hyundai-only dealer, I’m inclined to believe them. We shall see. I made a $500 deposit/downpayment.
They told me the car will have about 8 miles on it when I pick it up. Does that tell you anything? They said that was the drive from the boat to a truck.
Thanks for the suggestion about Planet Hyundai in Las Vegas. Who knows, I might have gotten the same or better deal there, and they might have the car on the lot. Las Vegas is easier for me to get to than San Jose, but not nearly as easy as Reno—which is just one 4½ -hour bus ride.
John
base. . . . . .12,579.00
pckg 6. . . . . 1,669.00
floor mats. . . . . 56.00
dest. fee. . . . . 545.00
adv. fee. . . . . . 392.00
Subtotal
(Invoice). . . $15,241.00
doc. fee. . . . . . 299.00
off-lot fee. . . . . . . 8.41
7.37% tax. . . .1,145.92
Before rebate. $16,694.33
Rebate. . . . . . .-1,250.00
TOTAL. . . . . . $15,444.33 off-the-lot
John
* The current rebates expire on Jan. 3. I think it's unlikely the rebate will decrease, but it's possible it will increase. You might want to have something in writing that says your price is invoice less any current rebates, rather than a fixed dollar amount.
* 8 miles means it's a brand-new car. Every new car has a few miles on it from testing and transport.
* IMO the $299 doc fee is outrageous. I pay about $50 in Minnesota. How much harder can the documents be to administer in Nevada? You might ask the dealer what the fee covers, and if there is any paperwork you could do for them to reduce the fee, e.g. take the papers to the courthouse. That might tell you if the fee is legit or mostly profit.
* Interesting fact: At 5% interest, a five-year loan on $14,194 ($15,444 - $1,250) would cost about $268/month. A five-year loan at 0% interest on $15,444 would cost about $257/month. What interest rate will you be paying? Would it make sense to get the 0% financing instead of the rebate?
“That’s it plus taxes?” I said.
“There’s a $299 doc. fee,” he said.
Not knowing at that time that dealer holdbacks are the general rule, I said, “Oh, that’s where you make your profit.”
He said, “Yes.”
So, too, the doc. fee of $299 is probably mostly profit for the Reno Hyundai dealer.
From this sample of two, I’d hazard to guess that $299 is what a lot of dealers in northern Nevada are charging or hoping to charge for the documentation.
The dealer in San Jose, CA had a doc. fee of $40.
The payment options are
(1) take the rebate and pay their monthly interest OR
(2) no rebate and pay no interest OR
(3) take the rebaete and pay cash OR
(4) take the rebate and pay cash by borrowing from a bank at lower interest than through the car dealer.
I don’t know which is the best deal. Any informed opinions out there?
I’m inclined to keep it simple and pay cash, since I have the money.
The dealer’s profit on this deal I’d estimate at 2% of invoice + most of the doc. fee; i.e., about (.02)x(15,241) + 200 = about $505.
As you suggest, I could ask for $16,694.33, less the rebate at time of delivery. In fact, I could ask that they give me either the current rebate of $1,250 or the rebate at time of delivery, whichever is greater. After all, the only reason I’d be taking delivery after the rebate changed is because I had to wait so long, when I could have got the car today from another dealer. What do you think?
Currently I have nothing in writing.
John
1. Everything is negotiable (well, almost--delivery fee isn't). If the doc fee is mostly profit, it is negotiable.
2. Get EVERYTHING in writing. Otherwise you will someday learn a good, though painful, lesson.
3. To figure out whether to pay cash or take the 0% financing, you need to determine what other uses you have for your cash, i.e. what rate of return you can generate from it. For example, do you have any debts like credit card debts or other loans you could pay down? If so, what is the interest rate? If not, have you talked with a financial planner about what could be done with $16,000 over five years in today's market? Depending on how much risk you are willing to assume, you could easily get a 8-10% annual return on that money, which is worth far more than the $1250 rebate is worth.
I can try to whittle down the doc. fee, even though we’ve already discussed on the phone the off-the-lot bottom line, and at the time I was happy with it. There is an element of uncertainty, namely when they can get the car. I suppose I could call and tell them I’m having second thoughts.
The dealer has my credit card info and my social security number, and I agreed over the phone to a $500 deposit. They never indicated that this would be nonrefundable. At this point I believe I could back out of the whole deal. However, they know I want the car, and they know where I live, and I believe they know that I currently don’t have a car. So they know that except for Carson City, they’re the easiest dealer to get to.
I don’t know whether they’ve committed themselves to buying the car from the manufacturer. They said they’ve ordered the car, but we have evidence that this is not possible in the strictest sense. I doubt that the state of their commitments to the manufacturer or whomever is relevant to mine, which remains none.
I thought the $299 doc. fee was a misnomer. Based on it’s primary constituent, it should probably be called additional profit. Interestingly, they offered to sell the blue Elantra GLS 5-door with package 4 already on their lot for the TMV. Perhaps they meant TMV + $299 doc. fee.
I’m no longer sure what the “Total with Options” TMV really means. Is the TMV what Edmunds thinks smart shoppers and skilled negotiators can get the car for? Is it really what their data indicates people in a given area are paying for the car before taxes, legitimate fees, and rebate? The TMV for the car I want is $15,201. The invoice listed on Edmunds is $14,849. Since this does not include an advertising fee, let’s assume for the moment that there is, as the dealer claims, a $392 ad fee on the invoice. That yields an invoice of $15,241. This exceeds the TMV by $40. If the doc. fee were a reasonable $40 and we add that to the TMV, we get $15,241.
The off-lot fee purportedly pays for a permit that allows me to drive the car (perhaps for 60 days) until I can get it registered in California. It’s too small to worry about.
If the dealer sold the car for his claimed invoice of $15,241 plus off-lot fee and tax, less rebate, his profit would be approximately $305 (the dealer holdback of 2% of 15,241).
What’s a reasonable profit on invoice—3%? To make 3% the dealer needs to charge a doc. fee of approximately 1% of invoice plus his actual expenses for documentation, say $192 (1% of $15,241 + $40).
Is it possible that the state of Nevada charges about $200 for documentation? Unlikely. The Subaru dealer agreed that his $299 doc. fee was mostly profit. Perhaps the dealers in northern Nevada have a tacit agreement that they will all charge a $299 doc. fee.
Still, I can point out that $299 is exorbitant, and that even an exorbitant doc. fee of $192 would give him at least a 3% profit on invoice. Whatever we finally agree on, I then need to ask the dealer to send me a signed agreement in writing, which includes the details of what happens if the car is delivered after Dec. 31, 2004. For example, the rebate will be either the current $1,250 or the rebate as of the date of delivery, whichever is higher AND if the car is not delivered by Jan. 15, 2005, then I can back out.
But I believe I can back out at any time, anyway. Dealers return deposits all the time. I believe all the deposit does is establish that the customer is able to make a down payment and is serious enough about the car to tie up, say, $500 worth of credit for a couple of months (about the longest it might take to get the charge reversed).
So perhaps the written agreement should say that I can back out at any time with the understanding that it may take up to 2 months for the charge to be reversed.
What do you think? Is all of this on the right track?
P.S. I think all car dealerships should switch to the Saturn and Scion approach to car pricing—an MSRP that gives the dealer a smaller profit margin, but is nonnegotiable.
John
A reasonable profit on invoice is whatever the dealer decides it needs to be, for them. It's up to you to accept or reject it. And it appears you've accepted it in this case, so I guess any more discussion on it is moot.
The salesman said they are now the biggest Hyundai dealer in the world. He agreed that he can’t actually order the car, but they move so many Hyundais that it’s just a question of when the car I want would come in. According to what you guys have told me, this would be more accurate than Reno’s description of putting an order in for the car.
The exact car I want is a sterling (silver) Elantra 5-door, manual transmission, with package 6 (cruise control, stereo upgrade, ABS with traction control, and power moonroof), and carpeted floor mats. That’s a pretty rare combination.
Here’s the breakdown on the offer from Planet Hyundai and for comparison, the current offer from Reno.
...................Planet H..........Reno........
base...........12,579.00.........12,579.00
package 6......1,669.00...........1,669.00
floor mats..........56.00...............56.00
dest. fee..........545.00.............545.00
adv. fee...........None...............392.00
doc. fee...........399.00.............299.00
off-lot..............None...................8.41
subtotal.......15,248.00.........15,540.00
Adjustment.......-47.00.............None
pre-tax total..15,201.00........15,540.00
7.75% tax.......1,178.08.........1,205.00
Rebate...........-1,250.00........-1,250.00
Out the door..$15,129.08......$15,503.41
Note: I’ve applied my state and county’s sales tax to both offers, since that’s what I’ll end up having to pay.
For the pre-tax total I asked for $15,201. I didn’t say why. (It’s the car’s TMV.) I just said that has always been my target price. He said his GM (general manager) would have to approve the adjustment, but it wouldn’t be a problem. The doc. fees from both dealers seem exorbitant, but what matters is the bottom line. The salesman at Planet Hyundai offered me what I wanted. Also, he said the rebate would be whatever it is at the time I take delivery. Also, he couldn’t take a deposit until the car comes in, because they link every deposit to a stock number.
I asked for this offer in writing, per backy's advice. The salesman waved me off, but said if the guys on the discussion board tell me I need this deal in writing, he’d ask someone to generate the form; he didn’t have the means to do it himself.
If I’m going to go with this new offer, then I need to notify the Reno dealer. In theory, I made a $500 deposit by credit card with them, but I just went to my credit card’s web page, and it appears that they haven’t actually dinged my account.
Since I’ve talked to the guys in Reno several times, it seems to me an obvious courtesy to give them a chance to beat (or match) this offer, rather than just walk away. Also, if they did get the car in for the same price, then it remains true that after Carson City, they’re the easiest dealership to get to. (I haven’t looked into how I’d get to Las Vegas; there’s a bus from here to Reno, but not one that runs to Las Vegas.)
Is it reasonable to assume that since Planet Hyundai has a bigger volume than Reno, they’re more likely to get the car I want and get it sooner than Reno?
John
It occurs to me that I could call San Jose and see if they want to beat (or match) Planet Hyundai’s offer. They currently have the exact car. If they match the deal, I could go to San Jose and have the car right away. I suppose before I board the bus for the airport, I should get something in writing so that they won’t say they can’t do it when I arrive, though I should think dealers would be reluctant to do that with someone who’s coming from a considerable distance.
John
P.S. What are your transit costs to/from San Jose and Reno, or Las Vegas? Would it cost you more to go all the way to Las Vegas than to go to San Jose?
Return by car—3.75 hours. About $20.
total: 8.5 hours & $45.
Here to San Jose, CA: same as above & then 1-hour nonstop flight to San Jose. About $100.
Return by car—8.5 hours. About $50.
total: 14.25 hours & $150.
Here to Las Vegas, NV—Anywhere from 7 hours to 2 days. Cost $?
Return by car—7 hours. About $40.
total: 14 hours to 2.5 days. Cost?
--Plan A?
One 2.5-hour bus ride to Ridgecrest, CA.
Then somehow travel 85 miles to Barstow, CA?
Then one 3-hour bus ride to Las Vegas.
--Plan B?
Rental car one-way to Barstow, CA?
Then one 3-hour bus-ride to Las Vegas.
--Plan C
One 4.75-hour bus ride to Reno.
Then 18.5-hour bus ride with 2 transfers to Las Vegas!
There is no 1-way car rental between here and Las Vegas. It *might* be possible to drive one-way to Barstow.
--Plan D.
Post “Want a ride” at local sporting goods store. Ask everyone I know.
John
Looks like you may have some additional bargaining power with the San Jose dealer--about $100 more transit costs. You could tell them, "If you meet the offer from Las Vegas, I'll buy from you even though it will cost me $100 more because I can get the car a little sooner."
You're not immersed in this transaction, are you? ;-)
Immersed? LOL! What will I do when, as this misnamed thread suggests, I’m actually no longer looking for a car?
Although most of the ways I listed for getting to Las Vegas are unappealing, I do know people who go there occasionally.
I’ll call San Jose tomorrow (Dec. 15). What you describe is exactly how I feel. It’s worth a trip to San Jose to get the car sooner, if it's for the same price.
John
If your vehicle becomes disable and needs to be tow, does Hyundai roadside assistance cover such long distance?
The roadside assistance, as described at
www.hyundaiusa.com/Html/Warranty/warranty5YearUnlimited.asp
doesn't mention a limitation in terms of miles. The assistance is contracted out to another company, Crosscountry of America of California, Inc., if I remember correctly.
I currently belong to AAA. If I continue my membership, some of the coverage will be redundant. AAA charges for towing beyond a certain number of miles, unless you have a premium membership.
John
Source: Customer Svc Rep at Hyundai Roadside assistance aka Cross country of america. This is the same motor club who provides road side assitance for honda vehicles.
The dealership in Las Vegas sells 150 cars a day. Since they’re open 6 days a week, that’s 1,800 cars in 2 weeks. I suspect at least half of these cars are used. So, they must sell, at most, 900 new cars in 2 weeks. The point is that they are more likely to get in the car I want than a dealer with a lower volume.
Reno has called a couple of times to report that they’ve found some approximation to the car I want, and I have to tell them that if it doesn’t have ABS, I’m not interested. Their current bid on the car I want is over $15,500 + tax – rebate. However, they have a car on the lot that differs from the car I want in only 2 ways: it’s a different color and doesn’t have a moonroof. Their bid on this car is closer to its invoice than for the car I want.
In short, I could have a new GLS 5-door in tidal wave blue and no moonroof (but everything else—cruise control, stereo upgrade, ABS with traction control) for $736 less than Las Vegas’s low bid on the exact car I have in mind. It’s sitting there on the lot in relatively easy-to-get-to Reno. I’m beginning to waver.
John
Their price is $14,520 + tax – rebate = $14,395.30 out the door.
Is this is a good price?
The TMV for this car for the Reno location is $14,514.
In my experience, it wasn’t that easy to find the combo of ABS, manual transmission, and 5-door for TMV. It looks like this combo is currently not on the lot of Planet Hyundai, despite their much larger size.
I’m looking forward to having this car. In fact, I’m looking forward to having any car.
Any last-minute advice?
John
Today I have to clean the garage and recycle a bunch of stuff. I could barely get the car all the way in. Also, I need to read the Owner’s Manual. There are some features I didn’t feel comfortable fumbling with while driving home in the dark.
Nice to have a CD-player. My last car had a wind-up gramophone. Just kidding.
John
When I got our '04 GT (Rally Red) in March, it was perfect for all of a few days before it accumulated a series of dings and scratches (all inflicted when my wife was driving, but that doesn't make it any less painful), plus a chewed-up alloy wheel. But for the last eight months nothing much has happened to it. I took it to the car wash (all cloth) today before leaving town for the holidays, since it had a lot of salt spray on it, and it really looked nice moving down the line.
Be sure to put a good coat of wax on the car right away too. Probably the first thing you did when you got home, right?
I ended up buying a car on the lot at Lithia Hyundai in Reno, which I could have bought a month ago. But I had to go through this process my own way. In the end, I got a car I really like for TMV. I’d enjoy a moonroof, if I had one, but don’t miss it, since I’ve never had one. And I’ve decided I really like the color tidal wave blue. I found the sterling understated and elegant, and I liked that the color suggests metal, which is mostly what a car is. I like the tidal wave blue for the opposite virtue of being overstated. It really is a Look-at-me color, and makes a sharp contrast with the chrome. Saying this makes me want to go out to the garage and look at it.
I haven’t waxed it yet. Thanks for the tip! I will do that tomorrow. I called the service guys in Reno today to find out what kind of oil they put in the car. Pennzoil 5-30. I’ve heard that an all-synthetic would be better. I’ll call again tomorrow and ask for some touch-up paint.
Today I swept the garage and took a car-load of boxes to the recycle center. I dusted them off before I put them in the back of my 5-door.
I still need to read the owner’s manual. It’s been a long time since I’ve had a brand new car. (I bought the ’83 Honda in ’93.) I’m probably a little naïve about how to look after it. Of course, I’ll do all the scheduled maintenance.
So once you put on alloy wheels later on, you basically have a GT model without the moonroof right?
Um, this was a rhetorical question, I think, but I’m not sure. Anyway, I probably won’t put on alloy wheels later. It was only in researching cars for this purchase that I realized that bigger wheels don’t mean a bigger radius from axle to the ground, just less rubber. Apparently this offers better control at the expense of more road noise and a more pronounced response to or feel for the road, which can be viewed as a plus or a minus, depending on what you want.
As to alloy wheels vs. steel, what’s the advantage there? Admittedly, this is off-topic for price and buying experience. So I’m not asking for a long answer. Perhaps I should pose this question in another forum, or someone could point me to where this has already been discussed?
Well, that’s two off-topic posts in a row for me.
Not sure if this question is in response to Backy’s recommendation or my post that I’d taken his advice. In any case, I can speak only for myself. If you read post 697, then you know it’s been a long time since I bought a brand new car, and as I said, “I’m probably a little naïve about how to look after it.”
Gloss protectant? If I have removed a gloss protectant by waxing my car, then I wish you had weighed in before the fact. To be fair, I admit that the window of opportunity to do so was narrow.
Eventually, however, one does need to wax the car, yes? Or have I turned a wax-free car into one that must now be labored over? If the former, then consider that the car had been sitting on the dealer’s lot for a couple of months and that I drove the car 200 miles home. (Both facts were discussed in earlier posts.) Might the car by then need a coat of wax?
What other things should I do or not do before I wait too long or can’t undo them? (This is a serious, albeit necessarily broad question. I’m not being rhetorical or facetious.)
Also, what is too much wax and why or how can this be worse than not enough?
P.S. I followed the directions on the bottle of Turtle Wax, which said to buff gently.
All my dealer said about maintenance was “Here’s a log to record your maintenance.” This and the Owner’s Manual, etc., are from Hyundai. Is it fair to say that in the absence of any Dealer instructions that their (implicit) expectations are the same as the Factory instructions?
What do you mean by “that’s how they can offer a 10 Year Warranty”? Except for the drive-train, it’s a 5-year warranty, and aren’t the warranties (5-yr. & 10-yr.) mandated by Hyundai? Are you saying that by my doing more or more frequent maintenance, they potentially make more money or can expect to do less under warranty or both, and that without this, they’ll weasel out of their obligations?
So relax and enjoy your new car. One thing NOT to do (and if you've read the owners manual you know this) is to travel at the same speed for long distances until the car is broken in. Varying speed during break-in will help seat the rings and minimize oil loss later on. Also go easy on the brakes during break-in. There's other tips in your owner's manual.
I may not feel as uptight about caring for my new car as I come across in written form. Then, again, there are places I’d go with my old beater Honda that I do feel reluctant to take my “perfect” car. If money were no object, I’d buy a used 4W to take on rougher trips. (I say that my ’83 Honda died, but more precisely I killed it.)
From discussions on this and other boards, it’s obvious (and not surprising) that making friends with the dealer is sometimes going to result in better treatment. Living in a remote, rural area has its advantages and disadvantages.
I am in Central Florida. I have been quoted $14,700 for a new 04 Elantra hatchback with A/T. This is the dealer's "out-the-door Internet price". ABS not included, and apparently "hard to get".
Questions: 1) Is this a fair price, or even a really good one? 2) It being year end and all, would it be reasonable of me to negotiate? If so, has anybody here paid less than $14K, say $13.5? 3) Are Internet prices typically firmer than others, meaning "no haggle" is understood? 4) If I offered cash, should I expect a better deal?
Thanks in advance.