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Acura Integra GSR Customizing and Modifying
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http://www.automotiveperformanceengineering.com/header.html
and here's the thread:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=102957
In quick summary, it looks like the DC JDM 4-1 is the best bang for the buck and I think that the Toda will be the best overall even though the info isn't up right now (should be, though, by the time you read this). Anyways, good reading to both of you!
It also seems that you 're braking on some turns and not before the turn. In other words you 're braking late and this causes you to brake some into the turn which is another NO-NO. Should be a little smoother and brake earlier. You have to sacrifice some speed in order to get faster times. Sometimes you fastest times are when you think you went slow! You didn't look bad at all though and the car seems to be rotating ok. It also seems well planted to the ground on the tight turns. The video is a little choppy (I got plenty of power & 256MB RAM so I don't think it's my PC) but not too bad.
It's very hard to tell because 2/3 to 3/4 of the course is not very visible and the placement of the cones are very hard to make out when he doesn't zoom in on you.
You definitely need to improve on that sweeper coming down towards the right of where the camera was. Too wide and a little sloppy
Someone found a video of my brother racing his Type-R on someone's web site earlier in the season. I 'll try and find it again and post the link. I beat his best time by .4 sec. that day so just imagine me going through it a little faster
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Now this is the way you should be braking.. as hard as you can before a turn and then accelerate just before and all the way through it.
Now I remember this event. I was probably doing 45mph and then there was a sharp right angle turn where you had to slow down a lot. I had the shocks set pretty soft there because the rest of the course was very very tight with a couple of slaloms (this is not the airport) and with firm settings, the car is slow to respond to really quick transitions that the slalom demands. I probably also have more stopping power with the aftermarket brakes than a regular Teg, because you can see the car coming up a lot in the rear..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I guess I didn't read the humor in your request so I critisized!
I can't find that link to my brother's auto-x video on the web. It's frustrating..
BTW, if I had a video of myself you probably wouldn't be able to see my line much because I go so fast
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Have a Healthy Holiday Season!
Anyway, my brother finally send me the link to his auto-x video.
http://www.hondahookup.com/videos.htm
Pgdn to the Honda/Acura videos and it's the one that says "white TypeR-time trials". This person has no idea what auto-x is because he repeats "time trials" with another car further down.. We have no clue who took the video. Probably one of the spectators.
The course was a short one, 34-39sec (notice the announcer saying the car before did a 47, must 've been a Yugo) and not very challenging. Unfortunately we can only see my brother through less than 3/4 of the course because the guy filming was standing behind a crowd of people and at a very bad spot. It is very possibel that someone has video taped me throughout a whole run. We get many spectators when we race at the Mall. Usually 200-300, dozens of them with camcorders. Many times when I go through the finish line I see people taping me. Maybe one of these is up on the web somewhere. If you ever see a red DSP GSR auto-xing on the web, it could be me
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
On another note, a good friend of mine turned in his '98 Prelude SH because the lease was up and leased a 330is. He says his Prelude was a lot more fun to drive. The Bimmer is heavy and he complains about the handling all the time. He does like the straight line acceleration though which is like low 6's (0-60). He auto-x raced the Bimmer 3-4 times this past Sep-Nov. and his times dropped by a whole second than when he had the Prelude. Another inidication that the Bimmers are not up to par with the Prelude's handling although they have more power. He 's also not too happy with the gas mileage (duh, it's a 6cyl, not a 4). Why do you want to switch from BMW to Acura? Because of the price, more value for your $$? I 've been reading the RSX right now has some problems with oil consumption, which would make anyone skeptical of buying one. I don't doubt in the next 6mos most of the problems will be corrected but I think the Type-R might be worth the wait if you 're a true enthousiast. Have you looked at the CL Type-S? They 're pretty fast for having an auto tranny. The S2000 is also a very good car but not to practical. I love my GSR and will most likely buy another Acura in 1-2yrs. The only thing is my Integra has been out for 8yrs so there are no recalls and almost no service bulletins on it.. I 'm sure I won't be as lucky with a newer Acura model but for the most part they 're pretty reliable. J&D Powers & Associates had the Integra rated like 16th or 18th out of 150+ models, and the RL was even higher rated. You can't really go wrong with Acura, but the RSX you have to be careful with, at least the 1st year because it has a brand new 2L motor with high compression putting out a lot of power, etc. It's not an Accord or your every day mid-size sedan or coupe.. The '94 & '95 Integras had some problems of their own too. They all had leaky valve cover gaskets by the time they hit 10-15k mi., plus clutch problems, leaky sunroofs, etc. By late '95, early '96 everything was corrected.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
BTW, have you noticed something about most of the Pros? They hit many cones in the majority of their runs and end up having one (maybe 2) good runs without cones that gives them 1st place or FTD or best PAX? It's because they come so close to the cones and it pays off.. most of the time.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Harry & Chem (btw, Chem, what the heck is your real name and where do you live?): Best wishes to you, your family, and loved ones during this holiday season. Hard to believe that I've only been hanging out here for a little over a year. And yet this place has become one of my favorite diversions when I have a few free moments, and now I'm starting to feel like a "regular." Thanks for sharing your collective wisdom and perspective on Honda-Acura-and other motorsports topics. I'm not sure what I'd do if I ever lost access to the Internet =:-o) I hope you have a peaceful and relaxing holiday season.
I 'm hoping I can relax a little but I doubt it. The wife always finds things for me to do!
Have a good one
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I 'm going to take some of the Pros' advice though and do the LSD first. They insist that's a must in SP classes. I 've been told that it would make a very noticeable difference and that higher spring rate coilovers may not be needed after this upgrade (look how well the ITRs do with 246lbs all around). The main problem I usually have is accelerating hard through and out of a turn due to wheel spin and loss of traction by 1 wheel. When I auto-x'd my brother's ITR during fun runs, I couldn't believe how fast I could accelerate out of a turn and keep the line I wanted. I didn't even try hard in the ITR and I beat his best time by .4sec with only 1 run! That matched my best time in my GSR that day (my brother took 1 run in my GSR and was 1/2 sec. slower than my best in the GSR) but I knew I could easily 've dropped it another 1/2 sec. had he let me take 1 more run but he didn't. He was upset and told me to get the hek out his car
Happy New Year!
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Any who, I'm still jealous about your impending LSD and don't think you can go wrong with that type of investment. I'd consider doing it but I'd like to stay in STS for a while -- learning to drive on street tires will only help me in the long run and the STS competition in Atlanta is very good, so running with an open diff seems like what I'll be doing for a while. Also, I'm not ready to committ to spending the $$$ for race rubber yet. I guess you can call me a cheap skate :-D
My car is 2001 year and not modded in any way and has a little over 14k miles...does it only apply to modified cars with CAI and such?
Now I have a question. I'm going to replace my sway bars and I was wondering if I will be able to feel a difference in handling. And also, what are the best type of brake pads? I want something that will work at all temperatures and i want to slow down quickly, but i don't have the money to get a big-brake kit. Thanks
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Once I had the AEM CAI on, I could feel & hear VTEC kick in at around 4600-4800 RPM and it got noticeably louder at 6K. I also felt more power in 4th gear with the CAI where I know it pulled harder because I reached its redline at 120mph faster than before (was racing against some racing bike with at least 750-1000cc's that thought could outhandle me on the open highway.. he outran me but I cought up on the bends every time). The car is also no longer anemic from 125mph on up after the CAI went in. It pulls stronger into the low to mid-130's and then it goes up very slowly to 140-141 where it can't go any faster. Before the CAI, it took me like almost a minute to get from 120 to 135.. or more than a mile (luckily I have some 2-3mi. streches on my long commute)!
The ITR on the other hand is much different. You feel & hear everything and its 5th gear pulls very strongly from 118 (top of 4th) to 140 (top speed 143-145 stock). I don't know how I got into the top speeds and stuff but I guess just wanted to point out the differences before & after a CAI.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I know, many people say you should get higher spring rates in the rear but I 'm not looking for too much oversteer, I can induce that with the Konis. Every driver has its preferences. Oversteer for me and IMO, does not help much and can actually hurt your times if and when the tail comes around. You have to be really careful because it 'll be harder to control the car. I want to have a nice smooth transition around the turns and want the car to be more neutral than anything. I like very slight oversteer at the limits. I took a fun run as a passenger in an SM '96 Civic HB (g6 like the one I had) last summer that had 400lbs GCs all around with Illuminas. That car had a little too much oversteer for my tastes but did handle fairly well. The guy was thinking of putting 450-500lb up front to counter the oversteer because he 'd sometimes lose it and his tail would come around on some turns & sweeper. I gave him some pointers on how to auto-x better but I think in such a light car his Comptech 22mm sway actually induced too much oversteer on top of the 400lb springs because that gen Civic only had a 20mm front sway. A 19mm back there and it would 've been more neutral. I know the Civic weighs less and is slightly different but the tail was very loose. Anyway, I went down to NJ Englishtown this year to attend a North Jersey SCCA auto-x event (where I had a really bad day and did crappy - it was wet most of the day, drizzling, and was a very fast course which I 'm not used to). A '95 GSR with 450F/400R GC coilovers and yellow Konis with street tires, did extremely well and I was told he consistently paxed very high and one other time he paxed 1st! The car looked very well balanced and was dropped about 1.75-2" with I/H/E and 22mm Comptech sway and rear lower tie bar. You would think it was on R tires they it handled.
Of course its driver was very good too but only on his 2nd season so I know he 'll improve even more. If that kid had R tires on and was in DSP or STR he would 've been close to FTD which really blew my mind since there were several National Champs there (Pat Salerno with his Boxter, Ken Frey with his CS MR2, etc) and were only about 2sec. faster.
Another GSR that blew me away by almost 3/4 sec. at one of my local clubs had 800F & either 450 or 500R GCs with Mugen 25mm sway & Konis. It didn't seem to understeer or push at all and it even fishtailed a little here & there. This was a mainly a track car which explains the much higher spring rates up front.. but it did very well. Previously I was thinking of going with 400-450F and about 500R, but there are many cars auto-xing around here with the reverse and do very well. Then I got to thinking about selling the car and didn't want to go with extreme rear spring rates. I also know that I can have my car extremely oversteer with higher shock settings in the rear so I don't think that 'll be a problem recreating with 450F/400R rates if there's a call for more oversteer. What I know for sure is I gotta get a 22mm sway and throw out the 19mm one and then install the LSD. I think I 'll be pretty happy with that. Then I 'll see how my times are and if I 'm satisfied with them I may reconsider the coilovers or get some later. My primary concern is also not waiting 6mos to sell this car with high spring rates because most buyers/people don't auto-x or race and will be turned off or think this car has been a race car and have excess wear & tear. People tend to stay away from cars like ours..
It actually all depends on my bonus this coming March. The company seems to be doing fairly well and if it's a good one I 'll go for the LSD asap. If the bonus is small, then the LSD will have to wait because I know it 'll cost me at least $1K with labor. Then there 's the possibility my group may get outsourced. My company has officially announced that they 're looking at proposals from 5 vendors to outsource the whole IT group and sell the data center/building where we 're all housed, so there 's much uncertainty in the air. I may end up purchasing nothing
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
On to the topic at hand -- I hear you loud and clear about going too stiff in the rear and inducing too much oversteer. I'm concerned about that too. It seems that everyone learns what type of car setup and driving style suits them best. Some folks seem perfectly content with an oversteering beast, and others (like you and me) like thing more neutral. One guy I talk to regularly takes a very hard line about springs and shock and that you should set the adjustable shocks to match the needed dampening rate of the given spring and then leave it alone. He claims that all you're doing after that is having too much or too little dampening for the spring. Then I hear folks like you talk about making adjustments on the shocks and being able subtle changes to help the car do what you want it to do. So who's right? Or is it somewhere in between? Rumor has it that off-the-shelf Koni yellows (single adjustables) are good for spring rates up to 600 ft/lbs. So, if you follow the advice of this guy I know who says set your shocks once and leave them alone, then should you set your Koni's at 50% firm if you're running 300 ft/lb springs? The other advice I have from another guy who's the only guy I know personally that has "real" race experience [he's competed in the Speedvision World Challenge, Motorola Cup, (driving a Type R in those two series) and now does the Grand Am Cup (Porsche 996, twin turbo, AWD) and Historic Sportscars Racing (in the sweetest '73 911 RS you've ever seen). He's also the same guy who's responsible for getting me started in autocrossing 20 years ago!!] says that the best way to get rotation of a car is to have the shock REBOUND setting as soft as you can. (Then again, he's used to having double adjustable Ohlin shocks on his race cars, which cost about $6000 for the set! So he's able to control the compression and rebound adjustments of the shocks independent of each other.) As you can see, there are a lot of competing view points here. And not that any of them are wrong, because they're all probably right from a certain perspective. As I've mentioned, for me I think stiffer spring rates in the rear will be better because my car's a sedan (i.e., it has 2" more in wheel base and ~100lbs more in weight). But then again, I bet if I went with basically the same spring rates front and rear to something like 400 F & R (right now I have 330F and 210R) I would see a big change. Bottom line: this one is a hard one to figure out. It could probably take me years to find the "perfect" setup for my car. But I don't have the budget to do that! :-( Maybe I'll win the Lotto some day...
I tend to agree with your racetrack experienced friend, but they 're both right to some extend. I DO get much better rotation, faster cornering/turn-in, and the fastest times when I have the Konis set pretty soft in the rear. If I go up even 10% I can feel the car pushing or if I go even firmer, the rear wants to slide sideways. The last 2 scenarios hurt my times when auto-xing because the rear shocks are now resisting to compressing and either want to keep going straight (ie: pushing/understeering, yes stiffer rates can also induce understeer, something else for you to think about now, hehe, just like low tire pressures in the rear can do the same..) or if they 're too stiff they just slide right under me and I end up sideways or spending more time to straighten it out. This is why I 've always favored softer settings. They produce faster times for me. Maybe it's because I have matched my spring rates closer with softer settings. As you know I usually go with 30% (about 5 lines on the knob) in the rear. So if the Konis can handle 600lbs, then my rear springs being 220lbs/in. equal about 35% on the dial. I 'm extremely faster on the course when the rears are soft and I 'm sometimes amazed how quickly the shocks compress & rebound at softer settings which makes the car respond a lot faster to transitions & slaloms. Now like I said, if the course is predominantly sweepers, I may go a little stiffer in the rear because I know my foot will be on the gas most of the time and the higher shock rates in the back reduce body roll and keeps the car well planted on the sweepers. The problem sometimes with this is, lets say you 're on a long sweeper going left, but at the end of that sweeper you have a gate to your right (also called an "off camber" turn)and you have to let off the gas to brake a little to make that quick right transition at the end of the sweeper. Now if my rear shocks are stiffer than normal I may fishtail a little or a lot depending how fast I was coming out of that sweeper and that again may hurt my times because I have to straighten the car out or fight it to get it back to the correct line to make that gate or turn. It's a give & take thing.. Had the shocks been softer I would never worry about fishtailing and I can take my foot off the gas most of the time, even on a turn or sweeper, without worrying about the tail coming around. I would also be able to make that right transition after the sweeper at a blink of an eye w/the softer shocks. The downside would be that I would've gone through the sweeper at a little lower speed, because soft in the rear means a little more body roll in the front when pushing the car, thus less tire contact. So I experiment with shocks settings during the day runs with courses like that. If the course has 1 or 2 slaloms and many 90deg. or higher turns and several gates that require quick left/right transitions, I know exactly how to set them - soft and don't even bother messing with them. Faster courses where you get up in speed and that have long sweepers, I then go a little firmer. Softer settings only really work well for me in slower courses (like 40-45mph & under). At higher speeds you need more firmness.
So both your friends are right and about the coilovers, you hit the nail in the head. It's very hard to figure out and everyone has different preferences and driving habits. I also try and go by Integras I see here in my local clubs and what they have on and what times the get. From watching that guy in his GSR with the 450F/400R combo there 's no doubt in my mind that it is a pretty good setup and far better than what I have now. I 've also been beaten by a '00 (or '01) GSR with the regular GC street kit, Konis & 22mm sway (& Kumho R tires of course). That's only a 350F/280R or 375/300 (something close to that). This guy also had plenty of oversteer and had to bring down the Konis in the back after I advised him to do so (he did even better and widened the gap between us so he got 1st place). So I know anything higher than what I have now will improve my times so I don't worry about it too much. I know I can gain at least 1/2 sec. from the coilovers (.75+ realistically) and hopefully another .5 from the LSD. That 'll make me very happy and ready for the divisionals.. until Mark Daddio comes along again and woops my butt
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
1) Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday and was able to spend it with those they love.
2) Harry, two more reasons for the JDM 4-1 header: heat shield on top decreases engine bay temp and metal shield on the bottom prevents header scrapage
3) Sorry guys, my name is Thomas and I live in Dallas, TX.
4) Welcome to the new guys integraguy16 and garados and welcome back to wiwang (geez, you're piling up the miles on your GS-R!)
5) Harry, how do you post pictures on here?
6) Casey and Harry, what do you guys think of the Bilsteins over Konis for autox? The people that have them say they love them, they are self-adj., are cheaper, thicker tube body, and go longer between rebuilds.
7) Spoon rear upper strut bar in...ITR rear sway: got the parts, need the time
8) Aren't the rear springs on ITR progressive and different stiffness than the front? I thought I heard someone say they were just the same on the F and R but I was skimming pretty fast...
9) Harry, what have you heard about the RSX Type R coming to the US?
10) Integraguy16,
that's cool that you are thinking about getting a GS-R. Not too long ago (I'm 18), I was this close to getting a GS-R but it didn't fall through. As far as the mods that you have planned: drive your car (whatever car you end up with) stock for at least a month to find out what you need to get. I/H/E doesn't net you much hp gain immediately but sets you up for bigger future gains with additional mods (i.e. cams, engine management, pistons, etc.) I would personally go with stuff that makes the car handle better as it is something that you feel on the road all the time even if you are daily driving (which you will be doing exclusively for a couple of years). Join www.honda-tech.com and search the site for all of your questions and ask here as well. Don't do any impulsive buying as you will probably end up not liking it later (i.e. me buying foglights and ultra white headlight bulbs...thank God it stopped there). Actually, drive your car stock for longer than a month because there is a high probability that you will get in an accident and it would just be money down the drain. Good luck with whatever you go with.
11) I am thinking for my setup to go with GS-R rear discs next...
Why doesn't it make sense? The new Z06 Vette does that stock from the factory. My car is most likely over that with the Kumho V700 autocross tires on. G forces is not everything though. That's only part of the equation. A car's agility has a lot to do with it. Look at the Type-R. It's very light & nimble and only gets .88-.90g with factory tires. Steering response, turn-in, understeer, oversteer, weight distribution, balance, chassis rigidity, many things contribute to a good handling car.
Tires is not everything either. Heavy duty bushings, shocks, springs, sway bars, tie bars, bigger control arms, Limited Slip Diff's, lower center of gravity, etc. all help improve handling and produce higher G's.
Again weight also plays a major role. Type-R is 2600lbs. Miata under 2400lbs and so on. The new Z06 weighs less than all the BMW 3-series! It is only 3100lbs and that is pretty good for a car with a V8. A BMW 330 weighs 3300lbs which I assume is why my friend likes his '98 Prelude SH better as far as handling goes. We all saw his times drop this year when he started auto-xing the Bimmer in Aug. He 's at least .75s slower than he was with his Prelude. He was very disappointed that a $40K car (was almost $41K with the sports package & all the options) with 245/40-17 tires cannot handle as good as his $23-24K Prelude. So now he 's looking at buying better tires for next auto-x season..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Yes, The Type-R's rear springs are progressive and the front are NOT. The ITR has 246lb/in. spring rates all around but the rear have two rates: 160 & 246 which makes for a better ride when driving normal on the street.
The Bilsteins will not give you better handling than the Konis. Many auto-xers have switched from the non-adjustable Bilsteins to the Koni Sports and swear by the Konis. Besides you will not find any serious auto-xer with Bilsteins unless they 're the very expensive adjustable ones. The majority of auto-xers use Koni single adjustable (Yellows) or double adjustables. I think the whole self-adjustability thing is BS. Otherwise if they were so good and can self adjust to most spring rates why are they only $330-350 for a whole set?
If you don't plan to race the car then the Bilsteins will probably be fine for you.
In order to post pics you have to link them to a web site/URL. Unfortunately we cannot post pics stored on our PCs.
You have to type:
Quotes included
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Bilstein makes good shocks and most people do like the low end Bilsteins, but for most of these people it's their first shock so they never had others to compare with. I tend to judge many things with auto-x racing in mind so I may not have given the proper answer. For street applications the Bilsteins are no doubt an excellent shock but for road racing and serious auto-x competition I 've never heard of anyone using non-adjustable $340 Bilsteins. I 'd say 70% of the racers with aftermarket shocks have Koni single or double adj., around here anyway. The other 10-20% have Illuminas, about 5-10% have more serious expensive racing shocks or custom built ones (Koni & Bilstein included and other high end Japanese imported ones).
There was a major thread 2-3yrs ago in H-T.com. There was Bilstein fever going on back then because the webmaster/admin & owner of H-A/H-T (back then there was only H-A which later split in two forums because one of the co-owners had a major dispute..) had just bought Bilsteins "self-adjustables" and was praising them. This thread went on for a few months. Most people loved the Bilsteins with H&R OE/Sports, Prokit or Neuspeed Sports. Then 1 person switched to Konis because he was an auto-xer and thought he could do better. You should 've seen how many people put their used Bilsteins up for sale after this person reported that he favored the Koni Yellows a lot more. Then the threads Bilstein vs. Koni started and Koni was the clear winner by those that had switched anyway. I came very close to buying the Bilsteins too. I could 've had slightly used Bilsteins for around $200-225. There were several for sale daily. I 'm glad I got the Konis instead though. But that's because I need them for competition. Had I not been auto-xing I 'd probably be driving around with Bilsteins today. What influenced me the most to get the Konis, was not the people in the forums. I walked up to almost every local, divisional & national auto-x champ where I race, and asked them what shocks they used and what should I use. The answer was always Koni.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Still I 'd like to do one of those racing schools some time when I get the 400-450lb coilovers because that's just for fun and to learn.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)