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Acura Integra GSR Customizing and Modifying

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  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    This is the most amazing thing H-T has ever done...so many dynos:


    http://www.automotiveperformanceengineering.com/header.html


    and here's the thread:

    http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=102957


    In quick summary, it looks like the DC JDM 4-1 is the best bang for the buck and I think that the Toda will be the best overall even though the info isn't up right now (should be, though, by the time you read this). Anyways, good reading to both of you!

  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Well it's hard to say, because I can hardly see a lot of the cones as well as the line you 're taking in the middle and far end of the course. It looks like you went through the same thing twice.. Anyway, when the video starts (took me almost 20 min. to download on 53kbs!), you come down on the big sweeper towards the camera and you 're going too wide. You should be closer to the inside cones. Then it looks like you 're coasting right before the sharp right turn closest to the camera (after the big sweeper). I didn't see any brake lights and from the sound of your engine it looked like you took your foot of the gas and coasted. BIG NO NO!!
    It also seems that you 're braking on some turns and not before the turn. In other words you 're braking late and this causes you to brake some into the turn which is another NO-NO. Should be a little smoother and brake earlier. You have to sacrifice some speed in order to get faster times. Sometimes you fastest times are when you think you went slow! You didn't look bad at all though and the car seems to be rotating ok. It also seems well planted to the ground on the tight turns. The video is a little choppy (I got plenty of power & 256MB RAM so I don't think it's my PC) but not too bad.
    It's very hard to tell because 2/3 to 3/4 of the course is not very visible and the placement of the cones are very hard to make out when he doesn't zoom in on you.
    You definitely need to improve on that sweeper coming down towards the right of where the camera was. Too wide and a little sloppy :) should be hugging the inside cones there. Some turns you did go wide where it's needed and you had to. That's good. Some others you took a little wide when you didn't have to. In any case part of my critisism could be off because I wasn't there and it's hard to critisize when you 're viewing everything from the same angle. The best position is when you 're working the course right in the middle somewhere. I usually see everyone's line a lot better when I 'm working.
    Someone found a video of my brother racing his Type-R on someone's web site earlier in the season. I 'll try and find it again and post the link. I beat his best time by .4 sec. that day so just imagine me going through it a little faster :)
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I send an e-mail to my brother to see if he still has the link. I think may have downloaded it at work..

    Now this is the way you should be braking.. as hard as you can before a turn and then accelerate just before and all the way through it.


    image


    Now I remember this event. I was probably doing 45mph and then there was a sharp right angle turn where you had to slow down a lot. I had the shocks set pretty soft there because the rest of the course was very very tight with a couple of slaloms (this is not the airport) and with firm settings, the car is slow to respond to really quick transitions that the slalom demands. I probably also have more stopping power with the aftermarket brakes than a regular Teg, because you can see the car coming up a lot in the rear..

    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    Yep, that's pretty much the main thing I can actually recognize: braking IN turns rather than before them. Other than that, sweet race!
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, I didn't think you'd take me that seriously... As you point out, it's really hard to analyze a taped autocross run except for the area that is right in front of the camera... and I gave you plenty of material to work with there :-D But in any case, you get a passing grade on your analysis because you caught nearly everything I had already identified -- nice job. Now let's see one of your runs so we can see if you're as good as you say you are ;-) Autocrossing looks so much easier when you're not the one doing the driving...
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I could show you one of my runs but I don't have a single video of me and a whole run. My friend who is a professional video editor has made 2 auto-x videos with music from this year & last year's season. They 're great. I 'm in each video about 1/2 dozen times but only for 1-2 seconds at a time. He has all kinds of cars in the video and it's really great with special effects and stuff.. He has also taped me 3-wheeling a few times but they 're really short ones. I wish I had a whole video of myself with a complete run. Even if I did, I probably wouldn't know how to make it into an mpeg :)
    I guess I didn't read the humor in your request so I critisized! :) Thanks for giving me a passing grade though. That means a lot to me :)
    I can't find that link to my brother's auto-x video on the web. It's frustrating..
    BTW, if I had a video of myself you probably wouldn't be able to see my line much because I go so fast :) Many people I have asked to watch me and tell me what I do wrong, couldn't tell me most of the time because I went through the course so fast.. no bs..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • executive31866executive31866 Member Posts: 2
    Well, I can clearly see that the RSX, is really not worth the buy. I currently own a BMW, and would love to trade it in for a new Acura. Any suggestions? I have heard both the positive and the negative, and mind you the cons far out weigh the pros. Leave me some of your own personal experiences with the Acura you like. It would be greatly appreciated.

    Have a Healthy Holiday Season!
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    those people were no pros and probably couldn't tell half the time where I messed up..

    Anyway, my brother finally send me the link to his auto-x video.

    http://www.hondahookup.com/videos.htm


    Pgdn to the Honda/Acura videos and it's the one that says "white TypeR-time trials". This person has no idea what auto-x is because he repeats "time trials" with another car further down.. We have no clue who took the video. Probably one of the spectators.

    The course was a short one, 34-39sec (notice the announcer saying the car before did a 47, must 've been a Yugo) and not very challenging. Unfortunately we can only see my brother through less than 3/4 of the course because the guy filming was standing behind a crowd of people and at a very bad spot. It is very possibel that someone has video taped me throughout a whole run. We get many spectators when we race at the Mall. Usually 200-300, dozens of them with camcorders. Many times when I go through the finish line I see people taping me. Maybe one of these is up on the web somewhere. If you ever see a red DSP GSR auto-xing on the web, it could be me :)

    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    It all depends in what you 're looking for in a car and how much you want to spend. There's nothing wrong with the RSX. It may have some glitches because it's a new model. They 'll all be fixed by next year. I 'm personally waiting for the 220hp RSX Type-R to arrive to the US because I simply want a more pure race car.
    On another note, a good friend of mine turned in his '98 Prelude SH because the lease was up and leased a 330is. He says his Prelude was a lot more fun to drive. The Bimmer is heavy and he complains about the handling all the time. He does like the straight line acceleration though which is like low 6's (0-60). He auto-x raced the Bimmer 3-4 times this past Sep-Nov. and his times dropped by a whole second than when he had the Prelude. Another inidication that the Bimmers are not up to par with the Prelude's handling although they have more power. He 's also not too happy with the gas mileage (duh, it's a 6cyl, not a 4). Why do you want to switch from BMW to Acura? Because of the price, more value for your $$? I 've been reading the RSX right now has some problems with oil consumption, which would make anyone skeptical of buying one. I don't doubt in the next 6mos most of the problems will be corrected but I think the Type-R might be worth the wait if you 're a true enthousiast. Have you looked at the CL Type-S? They 're pretty fast for having an auto tranny. The S2000 is also a very good car but not to practical. I love my GSR and will most likely buy another Acura in 1-2yrs. The only thing is my Integra has been out for 8yrs so there are no recalls and almost no service bulletins on it.. I 'm sure I won't be as lucky with a newer Acura model but for the most part they 're pretty reliable. J&D Powers & Associates had the Integra rated like 16th or 18th out of 150+ models, and the RL was even higher rated. You can't really go wrong with Acura, but the RSX you have to be careful with, at least the 1st year because it has a brand new 2L motor with high compression putting out a lot of power, etc. It's not an Accord or your every day mid-size sedan or coupe.. The '94 & '95 Integras had some problems of their own too. They all had leaky valve cover gaskets by the time they hit 10-15k mi., plus clutch problems, leaky sunroofs, etc. By late '95, early '96 everything was corrected.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, I think it's safe to say that the best way to get feedback on how well (or not) you're doing in autocross is to have someone you respect and trust sit in your passenger seat while you take a few runs. This is the format for how they do things at the Evolution schools and is incredibly helpful to have a "pro" talking to you all the way through the run. And then it's very humbling when they drive your car (never having been in it before) and matching or beating your times at that point in the day. =:-o) I've asked my buddies at autocross events to watch me and give me feedback on my runs but it's never been very helpful. They usually just say things look pretty good or OK... Even when you're working on course, you only get to see real well the particular section of the course you're stationed at. I usually volunteer to work the section that seems most challenging so I can see the various lines some of the more experienced autocrossers take. Then I make some mental notes and try to duplicate what the faster cars/drivers did. What I've also noticed in my short auto-x career is that some days you're in the groove -- everything is working just as you would like it to -- and then some day I feel like I couldn't drive my way out of a paper bag! On that video of me at my last autocross event, I never felt like I came close to driving the course the way I wanted to, and never felt like I had the car set up very well either. We only got three runs in that race and I felt like I could have improved by another second or so. Driving well and consistently is what I aspire to, and obviously have a long way to go.
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    :-) Spoken like a true cone warrior! :) I fully agree about everything and I 've had those days too, where I say to myself: "why am I driving like this?". We all have our days..
    BTW, have you noticed something about most of the Pros? They hit many cones in the majority of their runs and end up having one (maybe 2) good runs without cones that gives them 1st place or FTD or best PAX? It's because they come so close to the cones and it pays off.. most of the time.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I just discovered that I can store pics in my Yahoo briefcase/album for free. Want to see if it works..


    image

    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, really good point you make about the Pros... I've not noticed that they hit too many cones but what you say makes sense so I'm going to pay more attention next time. I've heard many folks say you're not trying hard enough if you're not hitting any cones, so I guess I need to try harder, drive faster, and start taking more chances.

    Harry & Chem (btw, Chem, what the heck is your real name and where do you live?): Best wishes to you, your family, and loved ones during this holiday season. Hard to believe that I've only been hanging out here for a little over a year. And yet this place has become one of my favorite diversions when I have a few free moments, and now I'm starting to feel like a "regular." Thanks for sharing your collective wisdom and perspective on Honda-Acura-and other motorsports topics. I'm not sure what I'd do if I ever lost access to the Internet =:-o) I hope you have a peaceful and relaxing holiday season.
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Casey & Chem!
    I 'm hoping I can relax a little but I doubt it. The wife always finds things for me to do! :)

    Have a good one
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Hope your holiday was enjoyable as mine was. Christmas is wonderful thing when you've got three kids to remind you of the holiday magic. Santa forgot to bring me something (anything) for my car though... :( Oh well, there's always Father's Day and impulsive purchases to help me out :)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    although not as relaxing, it was great watching my son opening up presents. Santa forgot me too but I don't think he (my wife or anyone else in my family) would know what to get :) I plan on getting most of the stuff I need between Jan-March. Those months are pretty slow for aftermarket vendors and I should be able to get some great deals. Probably a DC Sports 4-1 ceramic header because it's cheap and the gains are pretty good and most of all I want a Quaife LSD! That should make a significant difference in auto-x. First I gotta get motivated and fix my suspension/caster problem though..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    your Christmas was enjoyable. Yeah, I'm in the same boat in that no one in my family would know exactly what to get me unless I made the purchase for them ;). Harry, I suspect your brother would have a good idea of what to get you, no? Anyways, I'm green with envy about the Quaife LSD you're going to get -- Mmmmm, yummy! That should make a big difference. I look forward to hearing more about that! My next big purchase will probably be some custom spring rate GC coilovers. But first I need to figure out what rates to get. Definitely want higher rates in back, but don't know how high to go. Rumor has it that single-adjustable off-the-shelf Koni yellows can handle spring rates up to 600 ft/lbs. I don't think I'll be going that high, but probably somewhere in the 400-500 ft/lb range. Any thoughts on this one? Thanks and Happy New Year.
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I 'm considering 425-450F/400R. From talking to people with GCs at the auto-x events, everyone seems to agree that anything more than 400lbs/in. in the back and the ride is pretty bad. Although I wouldn't mind because my car would only be driven to & from racing events, I don't plan on keeping this car forever and would like to sell it sometime within the next 2yrs. I don't want to have a hard time selling it because it is too stiff.
    I 'm going to take some of the Pros' advice though and do the LSD first. They insist that's a must in SP classes. I 've been told that it would make a very noticeable difference and that higher spring rate coilovers may not be needed after this upgrade (look how well the ITRs do with 246lbs all around). The main problem I usually have is accelerating hard through and out of a turn due to wheel spin and loss of traction by 1 wheel. When I auto-x'd my brother's ITR during fun runs, I couldn't believe how fast I could accelerate out of a turn and keep the line I wanted. I didn't even try hard in the ITR and I beat his best time by .4sec with only 1 run! That matched my best time in my GSR that day (my brother took 1 run in my GSR and was 1/2 sec. slower than my best in the GSR) but I knew I could easily 've dropped it another 1/2 sec. had he let me take 1 more run but he didn't. He was upset and told me to get the hek out his car :) That's when I realized how helpful the LSD really is. If only our GSRs were 100-150lbs lighter and had an LSD, they 'd feel exactly like an ITR out on the course.. His ITR behaved almost exactly the way I had my GSR set up, except it felt slightly quicker especially out of the turns, and braked better, noticeably better. The sad part too, was that my brother's Kumhos were pretty shot and didn't grip as well as my fairly new Kumhos at the time. My brother even noticed it too and said my tires had way better traction. Oh what I could do with his car and some good tires.. I 'd be paxing first all the time and be consistently in the top 10. Oh well, now I gotta spend much $$ on my GSR for that.. I 've been thinking of a proposition for my brother. I want to offer him a set of brand new Kumhos for his ITR, if he 'd let me auto-x it this year (at least 10 events) or let me co-drive it whenever he goes.. How does that sound? I 'm pretty sure he 'll say no, because $450 is really nothing for him, but he lost tons of $$ in the stock market so maybe he 'll go for it :-)
    Happy New Year!
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, I find it interesting that you're considering nearly an equal spring rate between front and back. I understand that the ride will be pretty bad if the rears go beyond 400 ft/lbs, but most Atlanta area and H-T folks suggest going stiffer in the rear, say in a ratio of 2:3 or 3:4. One guy I know recently put GC coilovers on his GSR with 450 front and 600 rear. He's got a big [non-permissible content removed] rear sway and says the car is pretty neutral, but will oversteer at the limits and especially while under throttle!! Imagine that, oversteer while accelerating. In my car, if I'm too heavy on the throttle through a turn means start plowing straight ahead, do not pass go, and do not collect your $200! ;-) So, I'm thinking of something like 300 front and 400 rear, or maybe something a little stiffer. I'm not so concerned about a harsh ride given I only have a 3 mile commute to work and put something like 6k-7k miles on my car/year. I'd like to be able to get my car to oversteer on command and learn to drive it that way for autocrossing...

    Any who, I'm still jealous about your impending LSD and don't think you can go wrong with that type of investment. I'd consider doing it but I'd like to stay in STS for a while -- learning to drive on street tires will only help me in the long run and the STS competition in Atlanta is very good, so running with an open diff seems like what I'll be doing for a while. Also, I'm not ready to committ to spending the $$$ for race rubber yet. I guess you can call me a cheap skate :-D
  • wiwangwiwang Member Posts: 17
    To you GSR owners...i've heard that when the VTEC engages in the car you feel a noticeable surge in power and that you can actually hear when the switch over to VTEC occurs. Is this for real? I've driven the car in 2nd gear up to 7000 rpm just to see if it's true, but i realy dont feel that much of a difference. granted, the car does pull strong, but i dont feel any "VTEC surge" as i've heard or read elsewhere.

    My car is 2001 year and not modded in any way and has a little over 14k miles...does it only apply to modified cars with CAI and such?
  • garadosgarados Member Posts: 321
    I just got a 95 gsr and i put a custom short ram intake on the engine. Before, I could just barely hear the VTEC changeover. Now, once VTEC starts, it is very noticeable and very loud. As for the "surge" there really isn't a huge one, the vtec merely increases the torque at 5700-5800 rpm so that the torque curves stays as flat as possible.

    Now I have a question. I'm going to replace my sway bars and I was wondering if I will be able to feel a difference in handling. And also, what are the best type of brake pads? I want something that will work at all temperatures and i want to slow down quickly, but i don't have the money to get a big-brake kit. Thanks
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    I've had my GSR for two years, drove it totally stock for 1 year, and have added your basic I/H/E bolt ons since then. The car has always pulled very strong throughout the powerband. In fact peak hp on a GSR occurs somewhere around 7-7.5k rpm. All that being said, I have never felt the VTEC surge that some people talk about. The intake systems allow you to hear the secondary runners in the intake manifold open up, and so you hear a beautiful deep growl coming from the intake starting at about 5800 rpm. With my new header and exhaust I can now hear the VTEC xover at 4400 rpm under WOT. These things all sound very cool when you're driving the car hard, say at an autocross or merging onto the freeway. But I've never "felt the surge." People who say they do either have heavily modified engines (e.g., after market cams, cam gears, head work, etc.) or they are full of b.s. ;-) hope that helps.
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    see my previous post to wiwang because I what you're talking about are the secondary intake runners in the intake manifold that open at approx. 5800 rpm. As for changing your sway bars, depending on which ones you buy, you will feel significant handling improvements. Sway bars are one of the best and most cost effective handling modifications for a GSR. As for brake pads, check out Axxis, Hawk, Porterfield, and AEM pads. All make OE replacement pads for GSRs and most people have good things to say about all of them. Personally, I've used Hawk HPS and Hawk HP+ pads. I like them both. The HP+s have a higher coefficient of friction and better initial bite than the HPSs, but they are dustier than a s.o.b. The HP+s are made for street, autocross, and some track use so that's why I got them. If you're not planning to race at autocrosses or track days, the HPSs will be more than enough pad. They run about $50-55 for a set of front pads. Hawk does not make HPS or HP+ pads for the rear brakes on a GSR, so I run AEM pad back there.
  • wiwangwiwang Member Posts: 17
    Thanks for the responses! i feel much better now. =) thought my car was broken or something...
  • integraguy16integraguy16 Member Posts: 28
    I'm looking for an ITR or Prelude. Are the non-VTEC cars (GS, Si) worth it if it's an everyday car? This is my first car.
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    I'm assuming that you're a young lad (somewhere around 16 y.o.) given that this is your first car and by your username (...guy16). So, that will influence this following reply to you. Given that, I will definitely say that a non-VTEC car such as an LS or Si would be a very good choice. These cars are good, all around transportation -- easy to drive, reliable, and plenty of after market support if you're thinking about making any modifications down the road. These cars are plenty quick enough, especially for someone who does not have years and years of driving experience. Plus they won't drain your (or your parent's ;-)) wallet from their purchase price and insurance costs. Stepping into a Type R or various Prelude models with VTEC engines is a whole other ball game. Out of the box, these cars are great performers, and require more maturity and driving skills than I suspect you have at this point. Buying and insuring these cars comes with considerable costs, too. Hope that helps.
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    listen to Casey. He gave you great advice.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I have always felt and heard the secondary runners at 5800-6K RPM before I put the CAI on. Not that much in 2nd gear but more in 3d & 4th and that 's where I felt the car pulling harder.
    Once I had the AEM CAI on, I could feel & hear VTEC kick in at around 4600-4800 RPM and it got noticeably louder at 6K. I also felt more power in 4th gear with the CAI where I know it pulled harder because I reached its redline at 120mph faster than before (was racing against some racing bike with at least 750-1000cc's that thought could outhandle me on the open highway.. he outran me but I cought up on the bends every time). The car is also no longer anemic from 125mph on up after the CAI went in. It pulls stronger into the low to mid-130's and then it goes up very slowly to 140-141 where it can't go any faster. Before the CAI, it took me like almost a minute to get from 120 to 135.. or more than a mile (luckily I have some 2-3mi. streches on my long commute)!
    The ITR on the other hand is much different. You feel & hear everything and its 5th gear pulls very strongly from 118 (top of 4th) to 140 (top speed 143-145 stock). I don't know how I got into the top speeds and stuff but I guess just wanted to point out the differences before & after a CAI.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Casey,
    I know, many people say you should get higher spring rates in the rear but I 'm not looking for too much oversteer, I can induce that with the Konis. Every driver has its preferences. Oversteer for me and IMO, does not help much and can actually hurt your times if and when the tail comes around. You have to be really careful because it 'll be harder to control the car. I want to have a nice smooth transition around the turns and want the car to be more neutral than anything. I like very slight oversteer at the limits. I took a fun run as a passenger in an SM '96 Civic HB (g6 like the one I had) last summer that had 400lbs GCs all around with Illuminas. That car had a little too much oversteer for my tastes but did handle fairly well. The guy was thinking of putting 450-500lb up front to counter the oversteer because he 'd sometimes lose it and his tail would come around on some turns & sweeper. I gave him some pointers on how to auto-x better but I think in such a light car his Comptech 22mm sway actually induced too much oversteer on top of the 400lb springs because that gen Civic only had a 20mm front sway. A 19mm back there and it would 've been more neutral. I know the Civic weighs less and is slightly different but the tail was very loose. Anyway, I went down to NJ Englishtown this year to attend a North Jersey SCCA auto-x event (where I had a really bad day and did crappy - it was wet most of the day, drizzling, and was a very fast course which I 'm not used to). A '95 GSR with 450F/400R GC coilovers and yellow Konis with street tires, did extremely well and I was told he consistently paxed very high and one other time he paxed 1st! The car looked very well balanced and was dropped about 1.75-2" with I/H/E and 22mm Comptech sway and rear lower tie bar. You would think it was on R tires they it handled.
    Of course its driver was very good too but only on his 2nd season so I know he 'll improve even more. If that kid had R tires on and was in DSP or STR he would 've been close to FTD which really blew my mind since there were several National Champs there (Pat Salerno with his Boxter, Ken Frey with his CS MR2, etc) and were only about 2sec. faster.
    Another GSR that blew me away by almost 3/4 sec. at one of my local clubs had 800F & either 450 or 500R GCs with Mugen 25mm sway & Konis. It didn't seem to understeer or push at all and it even fishtailed a little here & there. This was a mainly a track car which explains the much higher spring rates up front.. but it did very well. Previously I was thinking of going with 400-450F and about 500R, but there are many cars auto-xing around here with the reverse and do very well. Then I got to thinking about selling the car and didn't want to go with extreme rear spring rates. I also know that I can have my car extremely oversteer with higher shock settings in the rear so I don't think that 'll be a problem recreating with 450F/400R rates if there's a call for more oversteer. What I know for sure is I gotta get a 22mm sway and throw out the 19mm one and then install the LSD. I think I 'll be pretty happy with that. Then I 'll see how my times are and if I 'm satisfied with them I may reconsider the coilovers or get some later. My primary concern is also not waiting 6mos to sell this car with high spring rates because most buyers/people don't auto-x or race and will be turned off or think this car has been a race car and have excess wear & tear. People tend to stay away from cars like ours..
    It actually all depends on my bonus this coming March. The company seems to be doing fairly well and if it's a good one I 'll go for the LSD asap. If the bonus is small, then the LSD will have to wait because I know it 'll cost me at least $1K with labor. Then there 's the possibility my group may get outsourced. My company has officially announced that they 're looking at proposals from 5 vendors to outsource the whole IT group and sell the data center/building where we 're all housed, so there 's much uncertainty in the air. I may end up purchasing nothing :( The job market is bad right now and thousands of people are jobless in this area. So everything is up in the air. The good news is they said they 'll let us know by the end of the month what they decided to do so I can I 'll know what to get or not get and what to do..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, sorry to hear about all the uncertainty about your job situation. The economy today is as bad as I can ever remember. I know now more people who are either currently unemployed or were recently unemployed than I ever have before. I truly hope thing work out the best for you. I'm really glad to hear you've got good sensibilities about making "discretionary" purchases and that you won't go for the big ticket items (e.g., LSD, etc.) until you sure the financial situation is in order.

    On to the topic at hand -- I hear you loud and clear about going too stiff in the rear and inducing too much oversteer. I'm concerned about that too. It seems that everyone learns what type of car setup and driving style suits them best. Some folks seem perfectly content with an oversteering beast, and others (like you and me) like thing more neutral. One guy I talk to regularly takes a very hard line about springs and shock and that you should set the adjustable shocks to match the needed dampening rate of the given spring and then leave it alone. He claims that all you're doing after that is having too much or too little dampening for the spring. Then I hear folks like you talk about making adjustments on the shocks and being able subtle changes to help the car do what you want it to do. So who's right? Or is it somewhere in between? Rumor has it that off-the-shelf Koni yellows (single adjustables) are good for spring rates up to 600 ft/lbs. So, if you follow the advice of this guy I know who says set your shocks once and leave them alone, then should you set your Koni's at 50% firm if you're running 300 ft/lb springs? The other advice I have from another guy who's the only guy I know personally that has "real" race experience [he's competed in the Speedvision World Challenge, Motorola Cup, (driving a Type R in those two series) and now does the Grand Am Cup (Porsche 996, twin turbo, AWD) and Historic Sportscars Racing (in the sweetest '73 911 RS you've ever seen). He's also the same guy who's responsible for getting me started in autocrossing 20 years ago!!] says that the best way to get rotation of a car is to have the shock REBOUND setting as soft as you can. (Then again, he's used to having double adjustable Ohlin shocks on his race cars, which cost about $6000 for the set! So he's able to control the compression and rebound adjustments of the shocks independent of each other.) As you can see, there are a lot of competing view points here. And not that any of them are wrong, because they're all probably right from a certain perspective. As I've mentioned, for me I think stiffer spring rates in the rear will be better because my car's a sedan (i.e., it has 2" more in wheel base and ~100lbs more in weight). But then again, I bet if I went with basically the same spring rates front and rear to something like 400 F & R (right now I have 330F and 210R) I would see a big change. Bottom line: this one is a hard one to figure out. It could probably take me years to find the "perfect" setup for my car. But I don't have the budget to do that! :-( Maybe I'll win the Lotto some day...
  • integraguy16integraguy16 Member Posts: 28
    I found a great '94 GSR for $5991. Only 133K miles. Seems like a good car... looking into it.
  • integraguy16integraguy16 Member Posts: 28
    When (if) I get this GSR, I'm gonna do the typical I/E/H bolt-ons. What do ya'll think about 5-Zigen for exhaust and header, and AEM for the intake?
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Thanks for the good wishes.
    I tend to agree with your racetrack experienced friend, but they 're both right to some extend. I DO get much better rotation, faster cornering/turn-in, and the fastest times when I have the Konis set pretty soft in the rear. If I go up even 10% I can feel the car pushing or if I go even firmer, the rear wants to slide sideways. The last 2 scenarios hurt my times when auto-xing because the rear shocks are now resisting to compressing and either want to keep going straight (ie: pushing/understeering, yes stiffer rates can also induce understeer, something else for you to think about now, hehe, just like low tire pressures in the rear can do the same..) or if they 're too stiff they just slide right under me and I end up sideways or spending more time to straighten it out. This is why I 've always favored softer settings. They produce faster times for me. Maybe it's because I have matched my spring rates closer with softer settings. As you know I usually go with 30% (about 5 lines on the knob) in the rear. So if the Konis can handle 600lbs, then my rear springs being 220lbs/in. equal about 35% on the dial. I 'm extremely faster on the course when the rears are soft and I 'm sometimes amazed how quickly the shocks compress & rebound at softer settings which makes the car respond a lot faster to transitions & slaloms. Now like I said, if the course is predominantly sweepers, I may go a little stiffer in the rear because I know my foot will be on the gas most of the time and the higher shock rates in the back reduce body roll and keeps the car well planted on the sweepers. The problem sometimes with this is, lets say you 're on a long sweeper going left, but at the end of that sweeper you have a gate to your right (also called an "off camber" turn)and you have to let off the gas to brake a little to make that quick right transition at the end of the sweeper. Now if my rear shocks are stiffer than normal I may fishtail a little or a lot depending how fast I was coming out of that sweeper and that again may hurt my times because I have to straighten the car out or fight it to get it back to the correct line to make that gate or turn. It's a give & take thing.. Had the shocks been softer I would never worry about fishtailing and I can take my foot off the gas most of the time, even on a turn or sweeper, without worrying about the tail coming around. I would also be able to make that right transition after the sweeper at a blink of an eye w/the softer shocks. The downside would be that I would've gone through the sweeper at a little lower speed, because soft in the rear means a little more body roll in the front when pushing the car, thus less tire contact. So I experiment with shocks settings during the day runs with courses like that. If the course has 1 or 2 slaloms and many 90deg. or higher turns and several gates that require quick left/right transitions, I know exactly how to set them - soft and don't even bother messing with them. Faster courses where you get up in speed and that have long sweepers, I then go a little firmer. Softer settings only really work well for me in slower courses (like 40-45mph & under). At higher speeds you need more firmness.
    So both your friends are right and about the coilovers, you hit the nail in the head. It's very hard to figure out and everyone has different preferences and driving habits. I also try and go by Integras I see here in my local clubs and what they have on and what times the get. From watching that guy in his GSR with the 450F/400R combo there 's no doubt in my mind that it is a pretty good setup and far better than what I have now. I 've also been beaten by a '00 (or '01) GSR with the regular GC street kit, Konis & 22mm sway (& Kumho R tires of course). That's only a 350F/280R or 375/300 (something close to that). This guy also had plenty of oversteer and had to bring down the Konis in the back after I advised him to do so (he did even better and widened the gap between us so he got 1st place). So I know anything higher than what I have now will improve my times so I don't worry about it too much. I know I can gain at least 1/2 sec. from the coilovers (.75+ realistically) and hopefully another .5 from the LSD. That 'll make me very happy and ready for the divisionals.. until Mark Daddio comes along again and woops my butt :)
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    5-Zigen makes decent exhausts but their headers are not popular at all. They 're also pricey..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • garadosgarados Member Posts: 321
    I wanted to know how any car could handle more than 1 g of lateral acceleration. It doesn't make sense to me. Thanks
  • chem123chem123 Member Posts: 272
    Okay, I guess I will go down the line:

    1) Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday and was able to spend it with those they love.
    2) Harry, two more reasons for the JDM 4-1 header: heat shield on top decreases engine bay temp and metal shield on the bottom prevents header scrapage
    3) Sorry guys, my name is Thomas and I live in Dallas, TX.
    4) Welcome to the new guys integraguy16 and garados and welcome back to wiwang (geez, you're piling up the miles on your GS-R!)
    5) Harry, how do you post pictures on here?
    6) Casey and Harry, what do you guys think of the Bilsteins over Konis for autox? The people that have them say they love them, they are self-adj., are cheaper, thicker tube body, and go longer between rebuilds.
    7) Spoon rear upper strut bar in...ITR rear sway: got the parts, need the time
    8) Aren't the rear springs on ITR progressive and different stiffness than the front? I thought I heard someone say they were just the same on the F and R but I was skimming pretty fast...
    9) Harry, what have you heard about the RSX Type R coming to the US?

    10) Integraguy16,

    that's cool that you are thinking about getting a GS-R. Not too long ago (I'm 18), I was this close to getting a GS-R but it didn't fall through. As far as the mods that you have planned: drive your car (whatever car you end up with) stock for at least a month to find out what you need to get. I/H/E doesn't net you much hp gain immediately but sets you up for bigger future gains with additional mods (i.e. cams, engine management, pistons, etc.) I would personally go with stuff that makes the car handle better as it is something that you feel on the road all the time even if you are daily driving (which you will be doing exclusively for a couple of years). Join www.honda-tech.com and search the site for all of your questions and ask here as well. Don't do any impulsive buying as you will probably end up not liking it later (i.e. me buying foglights and ultra white headlight bulbs...thank God it stopped there). Actually, drive your car stock for longer than a month because there is a high probability that you will get in an accident and it would just be money down the drain. Good luck with whatever you go with.

    11) I am thinking for my setup to go with GS-R rear discs next...
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    There have been many tests conducted by Sports Compact Magazine. They 've tested cars with way over 1.0g after they modified their suspension and put better tires on (wider wheels and/or tires).
    Why doesn't it make sense? The new Z06 Vette does that stock from the factory. My car is most likely over that with the Kumho V700 autocross tires on. G forces is not everything though. That's only part of the equation. A car's agility has a lot to do with it. Look at the Type-R. It's very light & nimble and only gets .88-.90g with factory tires. Steering response, turn-in, understeer, oversteer, weight distribution, balance, chassis rigidity, many things contribute to a good handling car.
    Tires is not everything either. Heavy duty bushings, shocks, springs, sway bars, tie bars, bigger control arms, Limited Slip Diff's, lower center of gravity, etc. all help improve handling and produce higher G's.
    Again weight also plays a major role. Type-R is 2600lbs. Miata under 2400lbs and so on. The new Z06 weighs less than all the BMW 3-series! It is only 3100lbs and that is pretty good for a car with a V8. A BMW 330 weighs 3300lbs which I assume is why my friend likes his '98 Prelude SH better as far as handling goes. We all saw his times drop this year when he started auto-xing the Bimmer in Aug. He 's at least .75s slower than he was with his Prelude. He was very disappointed that a $40K car (was almost $41K with the sports package & all the options) with 245/40-17 tires cannot handle as good as his $23-24K Prelude. So now he 's looking at buying better tires for next auto-x season..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    ehh.. Thomas, nice to know your real name :)


    Yes, The Type-R's rear springs are progressive and the front are NOT. The ITR has 246lb/in. spring rates all around but the rear have two rates: 160 & 246 which makes for a better ride when driving normal on the street.


    The Bilsteins will not give you better handling than the Konis. Many auto-xers have switched from the non-adjustable Bilsteins to the Koni Sports and swear by the Konis. Besides you will not find any serious auto-xer with Bilsteins unless they 're the very expensive adjustable ones. The majority of auto-xers use Koni single adjustable (Yellows) or double adjustables. I think the whole self-adjustability thing is BS. Otherwise if they were so good and can self adjust to most spring rates why are they only $330-350 for a whole set?

    If you don't plan to race the car then the Bilsteins will probably be fine for you.


    In order to post pics you have to link them to a web site/URL. Unfortunately we cannot post pics stored on our PCs.

    You have to type:

    image

     

    Quotes included

    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Ok, I guess the Edmunds computer thought I was trying to post a pic. I 'll give you the command again but this time I 'll include brackets. Do not use the outside brackets but use everything else.

    [image]
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    I guess the application Edmunds has is pretty smart. You 'll have to read the "Town Hall Help" section on the left. It tells you how to do it about 1/2 way down.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    I only know of one GSR owner who has Bilsteins and he likes them a lot! Not only does he autocross (in STS class and usually wins in central/south Florida) but he does a fair amount of track days, too. He's a knowledgable guy so I value his opinion. Not that I disagree at all with what Harry said -- overall I believe the Konis are a better shock; that's why I bought them. All depends on what floats your boat...
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Casey, are you sure this person doesn't have custom built or custom valved Bilsteins? Some road racers do use the high end Bilsteins that are made to order..
    Bilstein makes good shocks and most people do like the low end Bilsteins, but for most of these people it's their first shock so they never had others to compare with. I tend to judge many things with auto-x racing in mind so I may not have given the proper answer. For street applications the Bilsteins are no doubt an excellent shock but for road racing and serious auto-x competition I 've never heard of anyone using non-adjustable $340 Bilsteins. I 'd say 70% of the racers with aftermarket shocks have Koni single or double adj., around here anyway. The other 10-20% have Illuminas, about 5-10% have more serious expensive racing shocks or custom built ones (Koni & Bilstein included and other high end Japanese imported ones).
    There was a major thread 2-3yrs ago in H-T.com. There was Bilstein fever going on back then because the webmaster/admin & owner of H-A/H-T (back then there was only H-A which later split in two forums because one of the co-owners had a major dispute..) had just bought Bilsteins "self-adjustables" and was praising them. This thread went on for a few months. Most people loved the Bilsteins with H&R OE/Sports, Prokit or Neuspeed Sports. Then 1 person switched to Konis because he was an auto-xer and thought he could do better. You should 've seen how many people put their used Bilsteins up for sale after this person reported that he favored the Koni Yellows a lot more. Then the threads Bilstein vs. Koni started and Koni was the clear winner by those that had switched anyway. I came very close to buying the Bilsteins too. I could 've had slightly used Bilsteins for around $200-225. There were several for sale daily. I 'm glad I got the Konis instead though. But that's because I need them for competition. Had I not been auto-xing I 'd probably be driving around with Bilsteins today. What influenced me the most to get the Konis, was not the people in the forums. I walked up to almost every local, divisional & national auto-x champ where I race, and asked them what shocks they used and what should I use. The answer was always Koni.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • garadosgarados Member Posts: 321
    I just installed some new sway bars for my 1995 gsr sedan and it helps so much. The car used to lean like no other, but now, it hardly leans at all until I'm going about 70 mph. Just kidding, realistically, it's about 50 mph and even then, there is hardly any roll. It was a big improvement, especially in the rear. upgrading from the 13mm to 20 mm helped alot.
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Harry, you ask a good question, and though I'm not really sure of the answer, I was under the impression my buddy had the off-the-shelf, "run of the mill" variety Bilsteins. I'll have to check with him and let you know. I also agree that the majority of serious autocross racers around here use Koni S/As or D/As. They seem to be a favorite because even your basic Koni yellows are a fantastic shock, they can be rebuilt, and you can rebuild them with custom valving. I often wonder how it would be to have double adjustable Konis, but then again I'd probably drive myself crazy trying to get the compression and rebound setting just right =:-o) Plus, I've never seen Koni D/A's for under $1000, so that would be a considerable investment - one that would unnecessary for this rookie autocrosser. :)
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Garados, Good move on the sway bars. Which kind did you get? It also sounds like you replaced both the front and rear bars, no? As I said earlier in a recent post, sway bar (or more accurately, they are supposed to be call "anti-roll bars") are one of the best, most cost-effective handling modifications you can do to our cars. BTW, unless you put big beefy sway bars on your car (something like 25mm or bigger) along with harder bushings you will never totally eliminate body roll. Having some body roll is OK (like you've got now), but the body roll with our stock suspension is way too much. And one more thing, it's nice to have another GSR sedan owner on this board, so welcome!
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    20mm isn't bad at all. I have a 19mm and it made a big difference. The front sway bar in GSRs is 24mm and doesn't have to replaced. Did you really replace your front sway bar? Sometimes auto-xers replace it for the LS/GS 22mm one because they want more oversteer but the majority of people leave it alone. On our cars it is the same one as the Type-R's.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Bilstein does make off the shelf adjustable ones too. They 're at least twice the price of the Koni yellows but I think they might be double adjustable, D/A (I like that acronym..), not sure though. Haven't been to the Bilstein web page in a long time! Maybe he 's using those. I personally wouldn't use the cheap "self adjusting" ones for road racing. My friend's GSR used to lean a lot with those and H&R Sports when auto-xing. I cannot imagine pushing 90-100mph on turns like Limerock's with those shocks on. Many people I 've come to know from auto-x that road race recommend at the minimum REVALVED Koni Yellows with at least twice the stock firmness (costs $90 each to revalve when you send them to Koni in CA, still cheaper than getting double adjustables or other true racing shocks). Of course the minimum recommended road racing spring rates (for serious competition like SCCA ITA, etc.) are at least 650lbs up front for Tegs & Civics & 550R which would explain the revalving..
    Still I 'd like to do one of those racing schools some time when I get the 400-450lb coilovers because that's just for fun and to learn.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
  • garadosgarados Member Posts: 321
    I got a "tuned set" made by Suspension Techniques. Yes, I did replace the front sway bar. Besides, I needed to replace the bushings anyway, so I just said why not. Good thing I'm not the only one with a Sedan also. Oh yeah, thanks for the welcome cjhannan.
  • garadosgarados Member Posts: 321
    I've gotten some opinions on some brake pads, but I have a question about EBC brake pads. They call them the "Green Stuff." They look pretty good for my car and they claim 30-50% more braking force, but I wanted to know other opinions about these or others that might suit my regular street driving. What I'm looking for in a pad is a shorter stopping distance with no warmup or anything like that and no or hardly any fade. Oh, dust is not an issue.
  • cjhannancjhannan Member Posts: 201
    Garados, I'd steer clear of the Green Stuff pads. They also make and pad call Red Stuff and in either case, I've never heard anyone say anything good about them. In fact, all I've heard are complaints. Mind you this comes mostly from folks who are autocrossers or who do track events. And in those cases these pads do not hold up well at all. One guy claimed he actually melted a pair of Greens while participating in a track day. Others claim EBC wear out too quickly. I'm not sure of their price, but I think that's what makes them attractive to people. I'd spend a little more and get a set of Hawks, Axxis, or Porterfields. You'll be glad you did.
This discussion has been closed.