Do it yourself brakes..???!!!!!

julus

The shop has not had a chance to look at the Mk 7 yet but when I told them about the amount of fluid I had to add, he said since the car had never leaked it is likely that the fluid is being pulled into the booster then burned. I had no idea that that could happen. It is sounding more and more like a booster failure. We shall see.

I know this is off the subject but you may be wondering why anyone would keep a car for such a long period of time ... 89 Mk 7. I know that a 12-year-old-car is about to become a continuing series of headaches but it you had ever owned a Mk 7 you would understand. When someone makes something it's equal, I will buy it. The M300 and the Lincoln LS are looking better each day but I am still looking.

wtd44

Say what? brake fluid burned? What is that all about? Are you looking at the Chrysler 300 as a replacement? I think I'm behind the power curve.

julus

That is what he said. I told him that I was not aware that brake fluid was flammable so he adjusted his comment from "burned" to "consumed". It appears that the brake fluid can be drawn from the master cylinder into the vacuum of the booster and further into the engine. What do you think. I would think that all cars with a booster have the same potential.

I would like to hear your comments regarding the 300M, the Lincoln LS and etc., but I will look and reply on the Sedan page since it is off the subject of this page. (Do you still have that 96 Concord?)

andre1969

I've never owned a Mark VII, but a guy at work used to have two of 'em. So I can understand what you're talking about ;-) He had an '87, and then a '92 (bought used in '94). He traded in the '92 on a 2000 LS, and the new car's tranny promptly failed on him!

Anyway, good luck with the Mark VII...hope it lasts you awhile longer!

bretfraz

Brake fluid can boil. That's one reason why a car will have spongy brake feel, especially if they are being used hard.

One of the differences between DOT3, DOT4, and DOT5.1 brake fluids are their boiling points. The higher the rating the less prone to boiling. Better brake fluid also prevents water attraction which reduces the boiling point of the fluid which results in failed brakes.

If you want better performing brakes one of the best things you can do is flush the system and replace with silicone brake fluid. Also replace the rubber brake hoses with steel-braided hoses. Steel-braiding does not bulge or deflect under heavy braking. And they'll last a million years.

julus

bretfriz, my brakes were hard not spongy. That is my wife's description ... the brakes have never failed on me. Don't you hate that? I suspect, especially after talking to this site and the shops mechanic, that the vacuum booster is intermittently failing. He said that the vacuum from the booster can suck the master cylinder down, even a quarts worth, passing the brake fluid into the engine. No one here has challenged that, yet. I have played with the brakes on many cars by turning off the engine and testing how long the vacuum will last before the brakes go "hard". If you have not done that, I can tell you that you have about four good licks with the brakes before that happens. If you try it, be careful that you do not lock up the steering column! There is a funny story in that but I am already under suspicion here so I will let it pass.

wtd44

Another view: Are you not suspicious of the master cylinder itself? I'd go there before I touched the booster. This problem sounds like it may get expensive. Yep, I have the '96 Concorde in my "fleet." Having teenage drivers in the family, by the way, is the biggest revenge I have suffered as the Universe repays my own youthful transgressions from the distant past. lol

andre1969

Last time I had to mess with one, it was back in '96, and the car in question was a '68 Dart. Dual master-cyl, but non-power brakes. I think it cost about $30.00 and I put it on myself. Somehow, I have a feeling that those days are long since gone ;-)

bretfraz

A friend just replaced his on a '88 T-Bird. Cost was $140 with core exchange.

Go to Wrenchead.com or carparts.com for prices.

julus

wtd44, it does appear that for the booster to draw fluid from the master cylinder, there would have to be a problem with the cylinder. I hope to have the car back today and I will let you know. I do not think a master cylinder would be a big problem as far as expense goes. Likewise, the booster.

wtd44

So what was the verdict? Inquiring minds want to know! (:^]

julus

It turns out that the 89 Mark VII does not employ a vacuum booster in it's brake assist system ... so I am told. Instead, it uses a high pressure boost system ... no vacuum. They showed me a little iron ball, about the size of a softball, which apparently holds a very high pressure over a small volume of brake fluid. How many years did Lincoln do this? And, if it did not leak, where did that quart of brake fluid go? That shop, a shop which has been in business for almost 30 years with the same people, did not have the answers and they do not want to work on it. Am I doomed to place myself prone upon the sacrificial table of the Gods of Ford? On the bright side, the car has a very loud horn.

mudflat

Maybe the fluid is leaking out of the bullet hole in the head. Groan!

wtd44

You know, if all else fails...
Starting to remind you of a certain Mercedes, Julus? This is why new cars can be found in various dealerships around town. Ha! Ha!

julus

Yes, wtd44, today I took it to the Ford/Lincoln dealer and the service writer there had no idea how the brake system works on the Lincoln. He thought it had a normal vacuum booster system and was surprised to find that it is a pressure operated system. They are willing to 'practice' on my car. I will let you know what they discover and how many hundreds it sets me back at some point.

wtd44

This is beginning to sound serious, Julus! I am flabbergasted that the L-M dealership does not instantly recognize... Hey! Was the "writer" a youngster? Perhaps he is so young that his limited experience prevents his recognizing your rig's needs. I wish yiouy the best on this, remember that the Ford Corp. District Manager is just a phone call away.

julus

It appears that the entire problem was a low fluid problem. It makes no sense that a leak of that magnitude would not have been more evident. I admit, I do not raise the hood that often but I do check the ground where it is parked. I will have them do what is required to prevent the leak and then spent the remainder of the day applying another coat of wax on that wonderful car. I still say, that car has no equal. A much better car than that damned Mercedes which haunted me for a few years.

wtd44

You may get a new master cylinder yet. That fluid had to go somewhere. No air in the lines?

c5flighteng

Dear Daimler Chrysler:

Your company should start bringing some standard of integrity to it's communications and business practices.

BEFORE I bought my jeep I called your customer assistance and inquired about the BRAKE ROTOR WARPING problem being reported by 1999,2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee owners.
One of your customer assistance "specialists" told me the problem had been fixed by a TSB that had the rotor replaced with a newly designed rotor to replace the weak one which was warping as early as 3000 miles.
All I can say is thank God I didnt buy your 4 wheel drive model (It's got lots of problems too from what weve seen)
My rotors warped on my 2000 JGC at 11,000 miles.
There is no way I will buy MOPAR parts to fix my brakes because,in fact, your company hasn't redesigned the rotor!

I WAS LIED TO BY YOUR CUSTOMER ASSISTANCE AND I DON'T LIKE BEING LIED TO.

Why should I put another set of "Mopar" brake rotors on my jeep when they will fail between 3000 and 12000 miles? Why can't you build a better brake rotor?

Another thing I don't like about your company is the fact that your dealers tried to sell me replacement brake pads (just the parts) at a ridiculous price of around $300 (front and rear)
300 dollars for just brake pads is a little bit (no kidding) excessive.
I ended up installing after market rotors and pads (Stillens) which are far superior to your Mopar junk and cost a hell of a lot less. Bottom line is, I walk with my money and you lose DC.

Your company's relationship with it's customers and the public stinks.
Your probably going to end up like Firestone/ bridgestone.
DC lacks integrity, excellence, world class products and service.

You can't build and fix cars until you first fix your companies "anti customer" practices.

XXXXXXXX

also...when I spoke with your customer assistance folks and a local dealership (Vacaville Jeep, Ca) both the service adviser and your people in Auburn Hills were the rudest and snottiest customer service people I've ever seen.
I suppose this is "world class 5 star" treatment and service too!

THIS LETTER IS BEING POSTED ON THE INTERNET (EDMUNDS / JEEPS UNLIMITED) AND AT DEALERSHIP SERVICE CUSTOMER WAITING LOUNGES AND OTHER PUBLIC AREAS. I WANT AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE TO SEE HOW DC TREATS ITS CUSTOMERS.

isellhondas

Think that maybe...just maybe we have an abusive driver here who is hard on brakes?

THAT is the usual cause of warped rotors besides overtorquing the wheels.

Naw...can't be!

tboner1965

Could be. I am very abusive on brakes. Yet when I went to Brembo rotors and carbon fibre/metallic pads on the Buick, I've managed 25K miles without warping those rotors.

Couldn't say the same for the factory rotors!

So there is something to be said in favor of high quality hardware.

TB

talipo

I have trouble with a squeeking pad. I went to Auto zone, bought pads and replaced them. The front wheel was squeeking, so I had the rotor turned this helped some, but it still squueked. I pulled the disks off, took them to Autozone and they gave me some replacements.
Also, they sold me a tube of blue goop to put on the back of the pad. This helped !
I think it was the pad. ARe some brands better than others when it comes to squeeking ? Which ones ?

spokane

Use of the "blue goop" was probably the key to solving your problem. There are several brands of adhesive for this purpose that work well, including the bright blue one. For most cars, the major brands of brake shoes, which may not be the lowest cost, will usually be squeak-free when all parts are carefully cleaned, the slide-pins lubricated, and "blue goop" or it's equivalent used.

isellhondas

I guess I don't understand. I am not a timid driver but brake pads normally last me 75,000 miles or more. I can't ever remember replacing rotors.

When I was eighteen years old, things were different!

andre1969

The longest I've ever had front brake pads last was 39,000 miles, on my Intrepid. My '89 Gran Fury, by comparison, seems to go through them about every 20K miles. On drum brake cars, I'm usually lucky to get 10-15K miles on the front shoes, and 15-20K on the rear. Although the Gran Fury surprised me here...in the 41K miles I've had it, it hasn't needed back brakes yet. The Intrepid's still doing better in that respect though...50,000 miles now on the rear brake pads, although they'll probably need replacing by 60K. How do you guys get 75K and more out of 'em, though?

It is pretty easy to warp rotors nowadays though...they're built very thin and to tight tolerances. If you over-tighten your lug nuts, say, after rotating your tires, or having a rim off for some other reason, it's easy to warp them.

tboner1965

I've been know to AutoX it on occasion. And I'd like to get it on a road course to see how it does.

The Buick just does a lot of stop and go driving and at nearly 4000#, it takes a bit to stop it.

It will probably need new pads at 40K, but the rotors are currently pristine.

So perhaps I'm not the typical AutoZone customer, but then I don't buy AutoZone lifetime brakepads.

TB

spokane

Your brake life numbers look to be pretty normal to me except for the "10K - 15K" on front shoes. With your other reference points, I would have thought you would get close to 20K on front shoes.

I can confirm Isellhonda's report in that I know of a Honda Civic, used in a normal mix of city/highway traffic, that still had serviceable pads and shoes at 125 K-miles.

andre1969

The cars that I'd only get 10-15K out of the front brake shoes were my '69 Dart GT, with 9" drums, and my '68 Dart 270, with 10" drums. Both of 'em had non-power brakes, but I don't think that would have anything to do with it, would it? One thing, though, it would take a lot more effort on my part to stop the '68, which has a 318. The '69 only had a 225 Slant Six. So maybe the V-8's added weight, plus all the additional torque, might have taken its toll on the front shoes? I don't know what the '69's excuse for going through them so quickly was, though!

spokane

I agree that non-power system did not hurt your brake shoe life. My remark was very general; your figures may be typical for the Darts. Or ..... possibly the GT label provided you with an aggressive "GT" mindset whenever you drove these cars....

blkmgk

whats the nornmal lifespan of a set of rotors on a ls400?

bburton1

On my 80 accord-had to replace the pads every 25-30K, on my 97 I4, first set of pads lasted 110K and could have lasted another 15K. Used to get 50K on the rear shoes of the 80 accord-looks like I might get at least 200K on the rear shoes of my 97 accord.

I do travel frequently to LA and if I lived in that town, I doubt I would get over 40K on front pads-always on the brakes. So where and how you drive has lots to do with brake pad life.

Have had rotors warped on 2 occasions by a jerk with a impact wrench-never never never let anyone get near a honda with disc brakes with an impact wrench-even with a torque stick-your will get warped rotors. 80 foot pounds and no more-less if you bought alloy wheels.

wtd44

I thought these were treated as "magic."

isellhondas

Work just fine provided the right "stick" is used.

jgmilberg

I still prefer to use a torque "click" wrench to do the job properly. You just have to make sure the wrench is set to the proper torque setting. I make the guys at the tire shop look up the spec and show me on the wrench that it is set correctly. They hate me for it, but screw 'em, they won't replace my rotors if they get warped from them cutting corners, and besides that is part of their job.

andre1969

Is there anything more complicated about the rear disk-brake setup versus the front disk-brake setup on a typical car? The reason I'm wondering is that a friend of mine recently had new brakes put on the back of his '95 Grand Marquis, and his mechanic mentioned in conversation that the back brakes were more complicated, and required special tools, as opposed to the C-clamp that you need to do the front brakes. Any truth to this?

wlbrown9

I would like to add my experience with Jeep GC rotors. Bought a '99 GC Laredo. Warped at 5,000 miles. Replaced under warranty. Warped again at about 20,000... 5 star dealership recommend $75 turning to try and fix. Ended up trading for an identical '00 GC Laredo (had a number of other problems with the '99.. p/window motors, rear end, etc.).

'00 rotors warped at 14,000 miles. 5 star dealership refused to replace under warranty even with evidence of previous warpage, etc. Replaced with 24/24000 warranted rotors from Autozone, list about $90, though they gave me a better deal to make up for giving me the incorrect rotor the first time.

About 6 weeks later I get the survey from DC on the service I had performed. Slammed the dealer and DC (included the case I entered with DC about the brakes and heard very little except from the same peon at the dealership). No satisfaction even though I got to talk to the same peon/service manager when he got the bad results. Reminds me I need to [non-permissible content removed] at DC about the lack of response on the case I entered with them!

Bill (doubt I will ever buy another vehicle touched by DC)

alcan

Yes, but not by much. If the rear calipers incorporate the parking brake mechanism (some don't, they have separate parking brake shoes) then the caliper has a jack screw which forces the piston outward to clamp the pads against the rotor when the parking brake's applied. The only significant difference when changing pads is that the caliper piston has to be rotated clockwise as it's forced inward, to wind it back down the jack screw. Specialty tools for that are available at pretty much any auto parts/tools place.

edwardh5

My 94 4 cyl Camry has the same front pads and rotors at 90,000 miles.

oldharry

I use a click type torque wrench, and do not use "torque sticks" . I like to turn all the nuts down snug with a spinner knob on the socket then tighten all in the proper pattern about half tight before torqing any one to spec. A torque stick on an impact wrench by tightening one all the way before the rest are snug can result in uneven tightening. Also I clean the corrosion off the back of the wheel and the hub before reinstalling the wheels.

Harry

gsleve

does wonders inhibiting further corrosion

wtd44

I have come to think that Raybestos is about as good a replacement pad or shoe as is available for brake jobs. I've got two vehicles approaching the need. What do you think? Any brand and quality recommendations?

gsleve

at Autozone I've never had any squeaking its only brand I use on I've done many many cars, they are about $35.00 last just as long if not longer than OEM's

lmacmil

Most American cars use a "drum in hat" parking brake (actually a miniature drum brake that uses the rotor "hat" section as the drum). That doesn't really complicate pad replacement. On my Explorer,the rear outer pad is held to the caliper with pretty stiff springs. This makes removal more difficult as compared to front calipers where the pads just slide off. I actually had to remove caliper and clamp it in a vice to get one side loose. Not sure if the Grand Marq design is similar.

julus

A few days ago I described a problem with the brakes on my 89 Mark VII LSC. My description was so bad, based upon third hand information, that I mislead several of you who offered help. The problem turned out to be a simple leak of brake fluid from a valve attached to the ABS portion of the master cylinder. It took several days of searching to find a shop which had the knowledge to diagnose and fix the problem. The local Ford (in business since 1914) service manager did not understand the system employed on the Mark VII and I was not willing to allow them to experiment using my credit card. I followed my own advice and asked around at several parts houses until the same shop name kept coming up. This was the type of job which could have easily invited abuse, but I feel that I got a fair shake. The total bill: $329.95. You cannot buy just an oil seal any more.

wtd44

Now you can sell that rig for what? Four hundred? Just joking...

rs_petty

Replaced front pads on 99 Lumina with Raybestos. At least twice the dust production and of course brake squeal as dust accumulates. Should I try a different brand of pads? Carbon Friction, NAPA, OEM? Any recommendations?

wtd44

Did you get the rotors turned? That usually helps quieten pads.

q45man

The manufacturer spends lots of engineering time determining a good compromise pad compound which will stop well cold and decently when extremely hot.
The OEM pad company may make a copy pad [physical size] to sell to aftermarket suppliers but since each company may have dozens of compounds [usually at least 6] designed for different applications on diferent OEM cars they are not usually the same or close.
Pads that dust a lot means they are wearing due to friction [GOOD] at normal temperatures pads that don't dust are usually designed to work better at hotter temps [maybe BAD for everyday cold stopping.
In a massive test of 10 different pads that fit 2001 Crown Vic Police cars the government found that many were grossly inferior to that of the plain old factory pad and over 100,000 miles the factory pads were less expensive to own!

rs_petty

wtd44: No, rotor surface was in good shape, thickness in tolerance, slight vibration on braking, but went away with new pads. I don't think I did a good job greasing the caliper pins though, so will re-do that job.

q45man: Thanks, I'll price out a set.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, you have to be careful with aftermarket brake pads. If you buy cheap, you get cheap. If you buy "racing pads" or some such, you're going to be very unhappy with cold brakes and lots of brake dust...so sometimes factory pads are just the ticket. I always buy Benz brake pads. They fit and they don't make noise.