Anybody have any thoughts on the upcoming Nissan and Honda pickups???

jcmdie

You indicated earlier that you are an open mined individual that takes an approach that there are more than one way to skin a cat. Example: evaluating a product as a whole, ignoring its manufacturing origin or economical impact. OK, lets try following thru a little here. Quad shows that chevy accomplishes more horsepower and better fuel economy by using more morte cubes and less parts. You cry "foul". Where is the open mind? Where is the evaluation of the product based on its merits?

The reason the Japanese are going to take a long time getting a bite on the full size truck market is they think as if it has to fit thier market. The American truck buyer is looking for something that has a roomy interior, simple operation (less moving parts), plenty of power (who cares how its obtained), reasonable economy, and a reasonable price tag (that includes parts).

The average Joe doesn't care if he has OHV or OHC or is running a flathead in line 8. He wants seat of the pants power when he punches it. Period. Chevy accomplishes this. Damn I hate sticking up for Chevy products.

chevytruck_fan

plutonius-Boeing does that stuff in Moses Lake, that is one of the airports that we fly to to practice instrument approaches. I started my instrument in late september. Where are you training?

thats what I'm trying to get through, you can't just just compare only on cubes, if the 4.8 was a SOHC engine like the 4.7 and had less power then the 4.7 then it would make sense. But if you look at it the 5.3 has similiar gas milege to the 4.7 and similiar power levels. Theres no reason to be down on a engine that uses more cubes when it has almost the same milege (isn't the silverado epa rated the same city one higher highway?).

lol jcmdie, I appreciate you helping in this discussion on behalf of the Silverado folks I know it is hard for you lol

tavgrad

jcmdie, that's bold. I think toyota's are over-rated too, but praising Chevrolet?

Quad's comments:
"4 valves per cylinder gives higher specific output everywhere. But they make them smaller. This leaves them in a higher state of tune, and a higher state of stress for the same power. The pertinent questions with a multi cam, 4 valve per cylinder engine are:
-Do you get more power per buck than the same power through less complexity but more cubic inches?"
Quad, I know that. That's why the Corvette (and the Viper-V10 OHV)is still the bang for the buck compared to the other supercars. Remember that Vette model that had the Lotus designed and engineered 32V DOHC V8 back in the early 90's? The price of that one was double of the regular Vette.
GM is working on Multivale DOHC designs for the next generation cars and trucks. Look at Cadillac (not that gussied up Tahoe). All of their cars did away with the OHV design and stuffed the Northstar (damn good engine) under the hood of ALL of their cars. Someone tell us why.
This topic, as all of the other topics that got axed, is becoming a "Chevy vs. Toyota" topic. Neither brands are in the title, yet, Chevrolet fans come in here and already call these "not even out yet" pickups inferior and incomparable to a Chevy. We have already stated that the Japanese have a way to go before stomping with the big dogs, but that does not invite Chevy vs. Toyota war to brew up here.

quadrunner500

Fair and balanced reporting! LOL!

tavgrad

...to people who want to discuss about this and for people to who might be actually interested in buying one. Yet they come here and see Chevy people arguing about "gutless" Toyotas and Nissans. I can't speak for all others, but pickups are not just meant as workhorses anymore. There are sport trucks (Explorer SPORT trac?)that do not require any 7.0L engine. FUN over function.
Sport Trucks are an alternative to the SUV's for the, as Quad put it, the trendy 25-35 crowd.

Isn't there a "THE BIG TRUCK BASH" Topic? What the hell are you guys talking about in there that has to come over here?

quadrunner500

Back in post #188 when Pluto made the comparison between a Toyota and Chevy, you thanked him for it in #189, and then asked the Chevy fans, "what's keeping them from doing it?"

Now what's up with that?
If you set the bait,
you're not entitiled to a one sided de-bait. Somebody call a whaa..ahm..bulance!

tavgrad

Quad, I'm saying it is unfair that we are once again arguing about Chevy Vs. Toyota IN THIS TOPIC! I'm much at fault as you, CTF and the others who completely changed the subject. I'd expect the bite, why else would I wiggle the worm? Despite the fact that GM may supply honda with an engine, that gives no introduction for Chevy fans to come comparing....

The honda and nissan pickups are not for chevy fans at all, but for people who want something different...I'm here because I'm interested in buying a smaller sport pickup to toss around for PLAY. If must spark interest in you as well. Why else would you be here?

chevytruck_fan

oh come on tavgrad what do you expect, every time we started talking about nissans or hondas something would come up and lead to chevrolet and toyota thats just the way it goes

the universe rotates around GM didn't you know that lol

I think we are here because we don't have any other America vs japan topics, so we infiltrated this one.

tavgrad

Call it Chevy versus the future.

chevytruck_fan

how about weak little truck wannabies from the orient try to compete in a market they have no business being in, that would be a good one

quadrunner500

We all have opinions.

Here's a concept of the Honda based on MDX. Enjoy.

tavgrad

Oooooh, nice comeback...

CTF, your Archie Bunker's showing...

plutonious

Tell me SPECIFICALLY how the Tacoma is weak compared to a Ranger or S-10.

Or SPECIFICALLY how a Tundra is weak compared to similar Ford or Chevy trucks.

If Toyotas trucks from the orient (again, they're made in the US) have no business being here, what business do Mexican-made trucks (Dodge Ram) have here?

I'll tell you what business these trucks have being here - the same business "import" cars have being here. If it wasn't for imports, the Big 3 would still me making that garbage they did not so long ago. Lack of competetion in the marketplace has that effect, you know.

I seriously wonder how good a pilot you are going to make. Flying is all about taking in large amounts of information, interpreting it and acting accordingly. You have serious problems in that department, my friend. If your posts are any indication of your skills in these areas, you are going to be a menace as a pilot (if you even make it that far).

BTW, I know a couple of FAA flight examiners I would love to recommend to you for your check-rides!

chevytruck_fan

plutonious you stepped over the line, don't imply that I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm stupid or that I am not a good pilot, don't make personal attacks on someone you do not know at all, especially when your are basing your though on a stupid online message board that is meant for fun. And just because you don't agree with my take on the auto industry don't bash me or say that I am not going to become a pilot or I would be a meance pilot. you have gone way too far. You have absolutely no idea of what kind of person I am in real life, all you know about me is I drive a chevy truck and hate toyotas.

lol quad that isn't a serious concept vehicle is it? Shure hope that isn't hondas answer.

tavgrad

easy pluto.....we don't want to go personal.

All "import" pickups sold here are built here, at least 85% of them, and sold here only as North American market only products. the Honda pickups will also be built here.

True, Japanese pickups don't have the huge top end engines, but that doesn't make them weak. The big 3 has had experience for decades making these huge HD trucks. Toyota learned from the Big 3's mistakes. Honda/NIssan is right now learning from Toyota's mistakes.

They are comparable to handle the job for the everyday driver, which is 80% of us.

chevytruck_fan

out of all the foreign pickups I would say toyota is the most likeable, US plant for a long time (ex GM plant, hhmm maybe that is why I don't take such offense to them lol) with UAW workers.

plutonious

CTF, you've made comments on "the kind of people who drive Toyotas" and so forth. At any rate, I think your hating Toyotas is based on flawed logic and reasoning. I would rather have an American made Toyota than a Mexican made Dodge, personally.

tavgrad

what kind is that?

chevytruck_fan

people that don't need a work truck, like the a car feeling in a truck and put "refinement" as the most important attribute.

quadrunner500

Anybody remember if this was a unibody?

SS396

rsholland

jcmdie- I was trying to limit the comparison to strictly engines—specifically OHV vs. DOHC. That's why I intentionally disregarded the rest of the vehicle. There had been much discussion of the merits of both engine concepts—hence my comments...

Bob

tavgrad

Quad, no.-some cars still had body on frame back then. It wasn't up until the 80's when cars started going unibody-fiberglass-and ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH-front wheel drive.

My old man had a '72 EL Camino SS...Red w black stripes on hood...black interior...Fast...good looking...til it wrapped around a telephone pole.

tavgrad

#220 of 223 by chevytruck_fan Nov 14, 2001 (12:51 pm)
people that don't need a work truck, like the a car feeling in a truck and put "refinement" as the most important attribute.

I qualify -but I don't drive a toyota.

Refinement is very important. Who wants to drive down the road and a tire is loosening? The radio dials popping off? Transmission drops?
Smooth ride? On the STREET, I don't want to shake. On the rocks, well, that's different.
What qualifies as a work truck? Something bare stripped, has no style and is filthy of rust? Park bench as a seat? Not on a $30K + truck.

chevytruck_fan

I consdiered refinement, like people that complain GM engines are too rough, what ever that means I have no idea.

I consider quality the stuff you listed at the bottom.

Well one thing that really makes me mad is people that complain when a truck rides to hard,its meant to haul a load for crying out loud.

GM was one of the last to go to unibody vehilces, the Chevelle as far as I know was a car with a frame.

El Camino's are sweet, I like the 1970 SS 454, that would be a nice cruiser lol

tavgrad

Well, then, CTF, that is when you look at the Explorer Sport Trac or the upcoming Subaru STX, Brat, and get angry then.

plutonious

I drive a Tacoma TRD, arguably one of the roughest riding trucks around. I don't care about the rought ride. I bought the truck for its stellar off-road performance (#1 fourwheeling truck 4 years running now), reliability, durability and overall quality. If I wanted a carlike, refined ride, I would have been better off with a Z-71 or 2WD Silverado, a truck praised for its carlike ride. So your statements about Toyota guys wanting carlike trucks certainly don't apply to me, and many others.

While I don't mind the rough ride, I do expect a smooth engine and transmission. I feel sorry for you if your Chevy runs as rough as the 2002 Chevy Malibu with the 3.1L V6 I drove the other week. What a piece, expecially when compared to ANY Camry, 4 or 6cyl. I guess you have lower expectations of your vehicles than me, that's all. What's wrong with demanding quality when you're buying a 30K truck?

I get the impression that you probably like older trucks because of their true truck character, simplicity, etc. and dislike the more expensive, complicated and refined machines being offered now. I don't consider a plush, leather-clad Tahoe with some fancy AWD system any more "truck-like" than a 4Runner or Sequoia. Or a Tacoma anymore carlike than an S-10.

If you want to talk about carlike trucks and SUVs, consider these: GMC Denali, Cadillac Escalade, any leather-clad $30K plus GMC truck with power heated seats, cupholders, etc.

In reality, GMC produces more "carlike" yuppie truck and SUV vehicles than Toyota.

Again, you are blinded by your misconceptions.

eagle63

Pluto's right. all auto makers have made their trucks/suv's more "carlike," but GM/chevy jumped on that bandwagon long before most did. S10's and Silverado's are far more carlike than rangers or F150's. -and I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. I'd much rather have that than the bone-jarring ride of the Ram. (pre-2002 ram)

-PLuto -
I love the ride of the Tacoma TRD. It is firm, no doubt, but still comfortable. The Tundra, on the other hand, is a little too soft for my liking.

chevytruck_fan

Polk Survey for loyalty,category winners so far this year-

Toyota Tacoma-Compact pickup-19.7%

Chevrolet C/K-Full size pickup-37.4%

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=37144

rsholland

CTF, that link doesn't have anything about that survey...

Bob

navy4

Call me crazy (my wife does, daily) but where are the rear facing jump seats in the bed?

Looks an awful lot like the Subaru Brat to me.

tavgrad

Take a good look, Navy4....

Add on to eagle's #228 post...Not only that, Chevy and GM pickups have a far lower step-in height, even in 4x4 form, than Toyota's (Ford's and Dodges's too.) Look at it, and you can see. Let's not even talk about ground clearance.

jcmdie

I'll take my "bone jarring ride" of my pre-2002 Ram over the cushy ride of the competition because it handles weight in the bed and trailering better than the competition. That is my opinion based on riding with 2,000# in the bed. The competion tends to wallow around a bit more than the pre-2002 Ram.

tavgrad

Teeth-chattering body fat jiggling rides add character to the truck...

jim4444

Its a simple question, or you arent man enough to answer it, but I'll put it in caps for you, maybe you can read it better that way.

IF DOHC IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD, WHY HAVENT THE BIG 3 GONE WITH A DOHC SETUP? THEY HAVE BUILT MORE FULL SIZE TRUCKS THAN ANYONE.

plutonious

In reference to your post #229, consider this:

Toyota owners generally keep their vehicles for the long haul, unlike the GMC folks who are constantly trading in their vehicles every few years. So the Toyota folks aren't going to be buying as many Toyotas as the GMC folks buy GMCs over time. That may account for the loyalty ratings you published.

If you don't believe me, look at any big city's classified ads for trucks. Average year for Toyota sold is usually early 90s with lots of miles. Average Chevy is usually no older than 3 years or so.

Besides, what's loyalty got to do with how good a truck is?

plutonious

Somebody else mentioned that the Lincoln Blackwood/Navigator or something-other now utilizes a DOHC engine. So yes, the Big 3 are now starting to use DOHC.

Answer this for me. Everybody here keeps shredding the Tundra for it's DOHC engine, supposedly no good on a truck, but good on cars. Why, then, don't the Big 3 offer more cars with DOHC?

The fact is the Big 3 just don't make many DOHC engines, for cars or trucks. Maybe that's why the Big 3's cars aren't as popular as the so-called imports.

chevytruck_fan

pluto, wrong again, I'll have to search the net for the article, but foreign owners expect to keep their cars 3 years, domestic owners 5 years.

tavgrad

Pluto, the Navigator and Blackwood has the 5.4 32V DOHC Engine.

Actually, some of GMs cars and SUV's have DOHC multivalve engines. The New Trailblazer, Olds Bravada, and GMC Envoy have an all new Atlas (?) 4.2L DOHC 24V inline-6. This engine produces more horsepower than the 4.3 it replaces, and has the capacity to tow up to 6500#. This engine will be in the hoods of the upcoming and long overdue redesigns of the GM compact pickups. And Cadillac cars ALL have the Northstar (32V, DOHC).

Chrysler and Ford has started this configuration in the early 80's and has filled some cars with them. GM started in the 90's. Ford's trucks all have OHC.

And jim4444,
I said earlier that would cost more money to make, and cost a lot more to fix, and the price would be higher to us. Okay, since "full sized trucks" are meant to be work trucks initially, why spend the extra funds and put more sofisticated engines in there?
They have cranked out more full size pickups here in the states, right? Imagine mass produced worktrucks and fleet trucks with DOHC engines in it. It'll cost more. Something like the Navigator is not designed to be a workhorse, so a more sofisticated engine can go in there-price justified.
And GM does not have any OHC V8's-other than the Northstars. They are working on it, however.

And I did not say that DOHC setups are the best thing. A far smaller engine with DOHC multivalve engines can rev harder and higher than a huge pushrod engine. I agree with that, but OHC configurations are slowly replacing the antiquated pushrods. Putting a Multivalve 5.3 Chevy Engine versus a 5.3 pushrod...Imagine the power...the COST.

That was my answer but in a little further deatil...if that isn't the answer you are looking for, go threaten someone else.

chevytruck_fan

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=912

there is the loyalty article

plutonious

The article said nothing about how long people keep their vehicles. I'm basing my conclusions on what I've seen in the real world with classified ads, dealerships with "pre-owned" cars, used car lots, etc. It seems like there's always a couple million Big 3 trucks for sale, and only a handful Toyotas. Now, I know there's more Big 3 trucks out there, but the difference seems disproportionate.

This is speculation on my part, but I would say FAR MORE people lease Big 3 vehicles or trade them in after a short period than Toyotas. Why do they feel it's necessary to get a new vehicle every 2 or 3 years?

I've owned all kinds of vehicles, and without a doubt, the Toyotas commanded the highest resale prices and were easy sellers. The domestics I had were slow to sell, and the resale pretty crappy when compared to Toyota. In the classifieds, 1998 Tacoma TRDs (what I have) are going around $17500 to 19K. I wonder what a 1998 S-10 goes for, and how many are for sale? After putting something like "Toyota truck for sale, one owner, well maintained, like new - best offer takes!" my cars always sell in one week. Not so with my domestics.

So, I personally don't see the significance loyalty ratings have when talking about quality. If more people go back and buy GMCs again more quickly than Toyota, that just tells me they go through their vehicles faster.

chevytruck_fan

you don't see the significance, oh man talk about blind hatred for GM you want admit good anything about GM, if your truck sucks and breaks down all the time are you going to buy from the same mfg or the exact same truck next time, no your not.

autotrader.com
Tundra (used 00-2002)for sale within 200 miles of Seattle washington 75
Silverado (1/2 ton 00-2002) 231

GM sells what 650,000 a year tundra about 100,000, lets say probably 400,000 are 1/2tons, so 4x tundra sales, that would be 300.
So that would mean, (I know this area is probably a little differnt, every region is differnt but we can get a general idea) that the Silverado is owned for about the same time(since seattle probably has more toyota sales then the country average) a toyota tundra is.

no that was the loyalty survey, I'm trying to find the expected to own time survey.

there was an article on auto-site.com that you now have to pay for, it was canadian registration 85-88 (I think those were the dates) % still on the road, light trucks Chevrolet was at about 80%, Toyota was at about 67%, they sounds small amount was due to toyota not having any full size pickups that tend to last a little longer. maybe thats why you see more Chevrolets, they actually last. You know that can't just say longest lasting trucks on the road in their commercials, they actually have factual data that the % of chevy trucks still on the road is the highest of any make.

plutonious

I don't have any blind hatred for GM, in fact, I have relatives that work for them (though they, and most other employees, have been getting very disgruntled the last 5 years or so). But if you were to ask me who I think makes a better vehicle, I would definitely say Toyota. Sorry, but when you look at resale values, recalls, TSBs, Edmund's review of the Silverado, etc, it's obvious the quality isn't there like it is with the Toyota. The only thing GM makes better is heavy duty trucks, and that's just because Toyota doesn't make heavy duty trucks, just light trucks and compacts.

Please read Edmund's long term review of the Silverado. I challenge you to find ANY review of ANY Toyota that's as bad.

My last domestic car had so many problems it was ridiculous. Rubber seals in the air conditioning unit disintegrated, dealer fixed 2 times, still went out and then the warranty was gone. CV joints replaced under 55K miles. Power steering unit had problems, and the suspension started to crunch and groan. Honestly, my Toyotas with 200K miles drove nicer than that piece with 55K miles.

quadrunner500

Pluto, you might as well live in a fish bowl. The reason you see so few used toyotas is because they sell so few of them, only 226,210 year to date including taco and tundra. The big 3 have sold more than 10 times as many trucks this year, i.e. you're a little fish in a big pond.

As for resale value, a similarly equipped Silverado has a slightly better resale than Tundra of the same year. Don't believe? Check it out... http://www.kbb.com

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolpu.asp

bamatundra

Please try to type with both hands. You could go blind you know!

Most truck owners don't sell their trucks before they are 2 years old. Unfortunately, Quad, you are the expert in this. I don't blame you for unloading the Lemonado - but to infer that the Lemonado has as good resale is ludicrous.

Let's face it - Chev has been totally outclassed by the Tundra. It will just take time for the Chev zombies to realize this.

chevytruck_fan

bama you are so unbelievably in your own universe, could you please leave us alone so we don't have to waste time trying to explain stuff to you like your two years old because you can't understand it.

thanks

bamatundra

I'm sorry that my opinion differs from your own. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings by expressing my opinion. I will make you a deal - stop posting your opinions and I will stop posting mine.

Thanks

plutonious

Well, I guess that doesn't count the 1999 model Sierras. Even a few of the Chevy die-hards admitted this truck was garbage.

That's what sucks about buying a Chevy. If you're looking for a used one, you have to do your research because there are "bad" model years to avoid, like the 1999s. And if you buy a new one, how do you know if it's one of the "good" ones or the "bad" ones?

Yeah, yeah, blah blah. The 1999s were so bad because that was the year the new style Sierra was introduced. But howcome the Tundra, a brand-new truck from the ground up, when it was introduced, wasn't problem-plagued as well?

Excuses, excuses...

bamatundra

Is doing so because the domestic pickups are so dismally bad. If they were even close - I think that most Americans would opt for american brand pickups. I am one of these - I had a $2000 GMAC rebate waiting for me when I bought my Tundra. I chose the Tundra (And I am glad I did!).

Nissan and Honda's offerings will totally outclass the domestic pickups just as Tundra has done. I only pray that the domestic truck makers can get their act together soon, because they are losing marketshare which may be very difficult (if not impossible) to bet back.

rsholland

the pickup truck landscape could be mighty different than what it is right now. I wouldn't rule anything out. There are strong rumors that Toyota will flush out their Tundra line up with 3/4 and 1-ton models within a couple of years. Who knows what Honda and Nissan will do. And, let's not forget the Europeans; I know VW is keenly interested in the full-size pickup market too.

Bob

tavgrad

You guys need to create another Chevy versus Toyota topic and blast each other there. Leave others to talk about NISSAN and HONDA in the NISSAN and HONDA topic. Despite toyota being an innovator of japanese manufacturers challenging the big three in where they excel the best, it has not significance to the topic at hand.

European pickups: Bob, Mercedes is also peeking into the high end of it-only if the Caddy and Lincoln has any success.

VW is trying to go upscale here in the states, so it would be more of a high end luxury truck, not a stripped down version...