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Gas-Electric Hybrid Vehicles: Features you'd like to see.

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Comments

  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Run - flat tires (or would that add too much rolling resistance) standard (without the cost built into the MSRP) Rob Fruth Houston http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    Hmmm.. I'd take tire monitoring system over run-flat if I have to pick between the two. However, run-flat might reduce the weight of a spare tire thereby offsetting the cost of extra resistance on the run-flat tires. For those who want an added safety measure then the run-flat tires would definitely be the way to go.
  • crossedrealitycrossedreality Member Posts: 72
    What about run-flats with tire monitors? :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    How much more do run-flats cost over comparable but non-run-flat tires?
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I didn't see a price comparison between Run-flats, Michlen zero pressure http://www.michelin-us.com/us/eng/tire/zp/road.htm etc, as you might guess it seems to be a feature of some tires so the cost is built in. A combination of run-flats with monitors in quantity shouldn't be much and this would be good incentive for HEVs. Rob Fruth Houston
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    When was the last time you had a flat tire?

    Oh, let me think..... maybe as little as 400K miles ago.

    Use tire pressure monitors and a cell phone.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I just drove one from Seattle to Portland this afternoon. My wife was bothered by the "surging" until we were able to set the cruise control to 70 and then the engine dynamics stabilized.

    I averaged about 44 MPG, but the thing that stuck me was how often, how much time overall, the system spent using the engine to propel the car and simultaneously charge the batteries, batteries that were seemingly fully charged at the beginning of our trip.

    I suspect that had it not spent so much time needlessly charging the batteries I might have averaged more like 60MPG.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    An AWD hybrid with the IC engine driving the front wheels and the electric motor driving the rear, or vice versa. The batteries could still be recharged regeneratively via the roadbed traction.

    Speaking of recharging the batteries with the IC engine, what is the efficiency, overall, of this process? There are rather substantial losses in the charging process, and not insignificant losses in using the batteries to drive the motor.

    I don't have any problem at all seeing the extraordinary gains in storing vehicular inertia using the regenerative charging process, but I'm not sure otherwise.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Called Spocket (basically a 2+2 seater coupe, convertible to a small 2 seat pickup truck), showcased in 1999 Tokyo Motor Show. The front wheels were powered by a gasoline engine, the rear wheels by in-wheel electric motors, a permanent 4WD system.

    The latest rumor on next generation NSX is just that, except for a switch in postion. A 3.5 liter V6, sitting behind the driver, powering the rear wheels, and in-wheel electric motors powering the front wheels. The overall power is estimated to be about 400 HP. Sounds interesting, but don't know much about the specifics.

    Apparently, Nissan is also working on a similar concept for its AWD GT-R.
  • crossedrealitycrossedreality Member Posts: 72
    Now that, my friends, is a lot to break
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    A horse buggy would have very few things to break. To minimize the number of things that can go wrong, it would be advisable to go backwards.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    I suspect that the horse & buggy required far more maintenance per unit distance traveled than does the modern automobile, and emissions were an even greater problem. ;) (I wonder if the religeous groups that eschew modern technology keep buggy maintenance records)

    To return to the past is not an option.
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    well, Ford company has an idea that could be used here

    http://www.auto.com/industry/access11_20011011.htm


    let's not call it desperation just yet :)

  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Civic hybrid looks great thanks, any idea what the (US) MSRP will be ? Also where is Detroit during all this, there is lots of talk but so far thats it. Rob Fruth
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep, I like the minor improvements in styling. Should get an idea on pricing immediately after it goes on sale on Japan (sometime this month?). It would be interesting to see where the hybrid technology gets to after five years from now.

    As far as Detroit is concerned, I haven't heard about it in a while (since the new President). The policies regarding R&D for hybrid technology seem to have changed since then, and soon after I did read about GM staring at Toyota's hybrid system for its lineup, which didn't work for some reason.

    The fed funding towards getting an 80 mpg family sedan was a bit impractical I think. Perhaps too much improvement. Should have kept lower, attainable targets, like 50-60 mpg or so, and then with technology, improve upon it.

    Curious to see... what next!
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    A Hybrid that looks like a normal car, and not a refugee from clown college! That's the biggest improvement Honda has made to the hybrid to date!

    Personally, I don't think an 80 mpg sedan is unattainable, but even if it were, it's a good place to put the number. If you put it at a goal you know you can reach, there's no challenge, and no pressure to innovate. If you put the number just out of your reach, you have to do a little outside-the-box thinking, and that's where innovation and improvement come. The day before JFK made his speech, if you had asked scientists if we could put a man on the moon in 10 years, they'd have laughed you out of their office and went back to putting monkeys in orbit. John Kennedy threw down the gauntlet, and they had to push to meet the goal. Same with the 80 mpg car. Is it impossible? I don't know. I think not. However, it's pushing scientists to work harder to make better cars. We may never have gotten to the moon is Kennedy had given us a "realistic" date like 25 years, rather than an impossible one. Wether carmakers succeed or fail at an 80 mpg family car, they will do better than they would have with a 50 or 60 mpg goal.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Biggest improvement heck they (Honda) only make one other hybrid, I would hope the second model (Civic HEV) would be a improvement (agree it looks like any other Civic) & IMO we should shoot for at least 100 MPG heck the Insight (a small family car) is EPA rated 61/68 and some in the Yahoo Insight group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-insight/messages/ say they get 80 MPG and have been for a couple years now. Rob Fruth Houston
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    was backed by Federal funding and NASA had no profit requirement. The auto industry does not enjoy such luxuries. The existing hybrids are being sold at a loss so I wouldn't expect a lot of new offerings until there is reason to anticipate reasonable ROI.
  • abbanatabbanat Member Posts: 57
    The 80 mpg car project is part of the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicle (PNGV) which does in fact, receive substantial federal funding. However, your point about profit is correct, but then again, the federal doesn't have ownership of the vehicles as they do the space program. Also, there is no mandate to actually produce the vehicles commercially. It's essentially a pilot project to see how feasible it is to design and produce such a car.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It was a challenge, and more importantly, of competitive nature. At that time, putting a man on moon was out of need. Hybrid technology on automabiles is not a need at this very moment. Sure, one could save 60% on fuel costs by using one of these hybrids (and much better if 80 mpg were attainable), but people still don't care for gas mileage, as much they do for initial cost.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    But the point I was trying to make is that Kennedy was trying to challenge America to do what couldn't be done. That's why we need the 80 MPG goal instead of, say 50. Everybody and their dog knows we'll get to 50, but 80 is a lot harder. More of a challenge. Set the goal at 50, and if we succeed, we've got 50 mpg cars. Whoopee. Set the goal at 80, and we fail at 70 or 75, and we're still better off failing to meet the challenge then succeeding at an easy task.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    "climb the mountain" merely because it is there and they've been challenged - they must have a resonable expectation that they will profit from the investment. High mileage alone is not sufficient to assure profitable marketability. the existing hybrids achieve very good mileage but they are hardly runaway sales successes and they are not profitable at their current prices.
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    Also, the car makers have to add more features to existing cars to entice customers. More features mean more weight. More weight means less fuel efficient. However, there are some technology out there that can offset some loss in fuel economy such as fully electronic brakes instead of hydraulic. Until the price of aluminum drops then cars/trucks are stuck with heavy steel structures.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But you have to realize that Kennedy's challenge didn't include sending man to Mars. It is not that we will never make it to Mars (atleast my belief), but there is a time when that would be feasible. The approach would not be to plan for sending man to Pluto, but the next possible step. However, it might still be possible to design a 100-mpg vehicle today, but remember, one of us will have to pay to get it.

    One step at a time is the right approach IMO. It is nice to set high goals, and work towards getting there. But how high?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda has showcased a concept using its gasoline-hybrid expertise at 2001 Tokyo Motor Show. To me, it looks like an evolution of the Spocket concept car they had showcased in 1999 Tokyo Motor, with AWD configuration using two in-wheel electric motors (mounted on the rear wheels in the Spocket), and gasoline engine supplying power to the front wheels. The Dual Note is a performance car, that utilizes mid-mounted 3.5 liter DOHC iVTEC V6 powering the rear wheels and supplements it with two in-wheel electric motors powering the front wheels. The power output is rated at 300 kW (400 HP), a top speed of 300 km/h (186 mph), and fuel consumption of 5.6 km/liter (42 mpg). The car has all the bells and whistles, including Vehicle Stability Assist (RL, TL/CL Type-S) and ATTS (Prelude SH) to transfer torque to outer wheels during cornering.

    From Insight/Prius to Dual Note in just a few years! What's next?
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    sounds like an Acura CL replacement :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    400 HP, AWD, ultra hi-tech drivetrain with all the bells and whistles of a possible supercar for $30-35K? Well, I wouldn't mind dreaming for one! ;)
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    I am sure that Honda won't mind selling at a loss to loyal customers :)
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    The new CEO of Ford (William Clay Ford, Jr) has a reputation for being unusually eco-friendly for an auto maven which I believe means the Escape hybrid is on track and none too soon for me ! Rob http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth/ Fruth
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    I thought Ford was going to put a hybrid in the Explorer.... maybe they should put a hybrid in the Taurus as well since some Taurus have flexible fuel system..... might as well go mainstream all the way.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Heard the hybrid Explorer was off, then read about the Ford-EPA pressurized liquid hybrid but with a new CEO at Ford who knows what might happen. Rob Fruth
    - snip -
    Ford Motor Co. said last week it has signed an exclusive agreement with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to develop a new kind of high-mileage "hybrid" engine for trucks and sport utility vehicles. Instead of electric batteries, the Ford-EPA system uses a pressurized liquid to store energy. Hydraulic motors and pumps recover energy from the engine and brakes, then use the pressure from the tanks to help power the vehicle.
    Ford said the system was still in the laboratory, but could offer some advantages over conventional hybrids electrics. The tanks needed to store pressurized liquid may be lighter and cheaper than hybrid batteries and possibly more efficient.
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    that sounds like their system is still in the early stages... almost reminds me of GM. Just bring it on like Toyota and Honda.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Why can't Ford let their technology evolve? Or are they going to launch a 'perfected hybrid' drivetrain for good?
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    1st glad to see all the activity in the is it time to buy a hybrid topic (turbo diesel = mechanical nightmare IMO although with low sulfer diesel who knows & it may be needed and work well) I try to keep an open mind (may not do a very good job of it sometimes) 2nd I agree about Ford & hybrid technology, they (Fo Mo Co) should do the best they can but improvements are bound to happen, get something to market ASAP (no built in obsolllance if possible) Rob Fruth http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    For everyone who was/is afraid a hybrid might mean poor performance - snip -

    DaimlerChrysler is, however, developing a system that really does deliver better than V8 performance in a V6-powered Dodge Durango sport-utility. The company demonstrated such a vehicle to us in a series of drag races: the 175-horsepower 3.9-liter V6 Durango vaulted off the line and left the 250-horsepower 5.9 liter V8-powered version. This is because it got a significant boost from a 73-horsepower electric motor. Gas mileage is also up: The hybrid V6 gets 18.6 miles per gallon, compared with the V8's 15.5 mpg, , a 20-percent improvement. - snip -
    http://www.newcartestdrive.com/
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    that this Durango is not designed for those who would take it off-road or do some heavy-duty towing... still... it might fill the bill for some consumers


    here's the direct link

    http://www.nctd.com/sneakpreviews/03durango_sp.cfm

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Here is another chance to look at the latest hybrid concept from Honda. It is powerful (400 HP net power), it has a very high top speed (186 mph) and is frugal at fuel consumption (42.5 mpg). The layout is AWD with each of the front wheels powered by electric motor, the rear wheels powered by mid-mounted 3.5 liter V6 with IMA. Pretty decent description of features in the concept in the following link...


    http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/auto/DUALNOTE


    It has 2+2 seating with four doors.

  • chevytruck_fanchevytruck_fan Member Posts: 432
    maybe they could have hybrids where you could choose just to run on real fuel, so when you want performance etc you could just run on fuel.
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    That's definitely one of the best concept cars that I want to be a reality soon.... even in trickled down form...
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    heres a thought...

    why not recover the energy lost from the up and down movement of the suspensions? after all, bouncing up and down 2 tons of steel even on say only 3 or 4 inches when multiplied with gears could probably generate enough force to spin generators to high speed (the generators could be designed to produce electricity on both up and down movements, and each suspension should have one).

    think of it: every time you break/accelerate, hit a pothole, change lane, turn, or get gusted sideways by winds. Each of this will generate suspension movements which can produce continuous freebee sources of electricity (...you could even ask your kids to jump up and down when your car is out of juice)

    the worse/best part would be since the longer travelling suspensions would clearly have the advantage, SUV owners would finally have their day. The advantages for SUVs would be many:

    Longer suspensions, heavier bodies generating more force, more lean on turns, more dives and squats on stop and go, more often blown by winds, and more often used in rough terrain.
    Yeah... drive in rough terrain when possible could be an SUV ad slogan.

    Best of all, you could probably control the damping action of your shocks by shifting the "gear ratios" that multiplies the spin of the generators.
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    interesting thought, but I guess it might be hard to isolate that lost energy and convert it than the ones from braking energy....
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    well.. I am a little disappointed from this article

    http://edmunds.yellowbrix.com/pages/edmunds/Story.nsp?story_id=26084526&ID=edmunds


    The Civic hybrid is getting ONLY 50mpg combined driving... that RAV-4 sure is expensive even with an incentive break...


    Mini-vans hybrids... that would be very nice for many folks.... eventually...

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    50 mpg combined is Honda's claim, although they have tested to get it upto 69.4 mpg based on earlier news items. I'll not be surprised to see it getting 55-60 mpg EPA ratings.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    50 MPG is pretty shabby, hope it turns out to be 55-60. (My plain ole two year old gas Civic gets 40 MPG on the highway @ 70 MPH) New hybrid should do better than 50. If the Civic does get 50 MPG wonder what the Pilot will get, 35 ? http://hondanews.com/Forms/honda/concepts/index.html
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    The Pilot is *not* a hybrid, when I read it would use a "advanced V-6 powertrain" assumed (you know what they say about assuming) something other than basically the same engine from the WWII era. 35 MPG would be something.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Advanced V6 may mean the first of the new generation of Honda V6, i.e. a 3.5 liter DOHC iVTEC V6. Or it could just be the same engine as that in the Odyssey or MDX to start with.

    The latter would allow it to get about the same gas mileage as MDX (17/23), assuming that it weighs no more (MDX and Odyssey are both 4350 lb. vehicles).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    JDM website has it now...

    http://www.honda.co.jp/CIVICHYBRID

    Projected price tag is under $20K for the sedan in USA!
  • cyranno99cyranno99 Member Posts: 419
    that would make it very competitive with the Toyota Prius...

    I'll wait for the real world fuel economy numbers... long-term tests....
This discussion has been closed.