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Gas-Electric Hybrid Vehicles: Features you'd like to see.



  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    ___I cannot read German but the Lupo 3L is not the 77 mpg automobile. The regular Lupo is. With that, the 3L will receive far less then 70 mpg and is just a 14.9 second to 60 automobile according to your information. Since the Insight with its IMA drained only loses 2 seconds, how is the Lupo supposed to gain 5 seconds or 50% in acceleration with the Insight or HCH’s pack? This is completely inept leaps of faith here no matter how much you wish it to be.

    ___As for getting one here in the states, if it’s a 0 - 60 automobile in 15 seconds w/ let’s say 50 - 60 mpg rating, and being almost as small as an Insight, why would anyone over here own one? The Prius and HCH are already almost or as capable in the fuel economy department all the while having far less emissions and much higher performance for ~ the same price. Like I said, you would be the only one to purchase this POS.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    ___I might be mistaken about the 3.0 L from above as mentioned earlier as it might very well be the 77 mpg one? That 77 mpg was in the Euro extra urban cycle which is ~ 10 % higher then EPA Highway estimates which most don’t reach here either …

    ___I found 166’s post as he is the one from Paderborn, Germany but the TDI appears to be the right Lupo?

    The Lupo is ONLY really efficient when the "ECO"-Switch is engaged. Then it has 45 hp instead of the 61 and the gears of the automatic transmission tend to change earlier.
    With 61 hp the Lupo uses around 4-5 litres per 100 kms.
    I've driven this thing because I thought it would be a nice economical run-around. But then I drove the Insight. Absolutely NO comparison.
    You'd rather walk than drive the Lupo 3L

    ___Here is the info on depleted packs …

    Motor Trend 05/04

    We tested each of these cars with its battery as depleted as we could make it and saw 0-to-60 times plunge by 1.3 and 1.5 seconds for the Hondas and by 3.3 and 4.7 seconds for the Priuses.

    Car and Driver: Yours: 0 - 60 in 10.6 seconds.

    ___After all is said and done, it will not be a 10 second car with an IMA setup.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In UK, Lupo is offered with 60 HP diesel engine with a combined fuel economy of 64 mpg (Imperial translates to 53 mpg US). This vehicle does 0-62 mph in about 17 seconds. Despite of getting good mileage, a car like it will be far from just being acceptable in the USA.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    Automakers, here's 2 more tips on features you could add to your cars.

    Feature 1 - Remote Climate Control:

    Current hybrids have Electric Heaters and Airconditioners that are powered from huge batteries. A simple software change, some internal switches, and another remote button and walah! Drivers can now start these from afar.

    Heres how it should go..

    When you click on the remote, software checks if battery has enough juice to power the components (air in summer, heater and glass/mirror defrosters in winter). If there is, it activates the components for 5 to 10 minutes max to do the job. If the driver does not open the car door by then, softwares shuts down to conserve energy.

    The advantage is it's relatively inexpensive to incorporate, plus!.... this feature will NOT waste significant energy as the engine HAVE to run continuously ANYWAY to warm up the car after it's started.

    Just think..... No more window scraping on dreary winter days, nice toasty interior as driver steps in, and warmed up batteries ready to zip!

    Feature 2 - Automatic Tire pressure system (Prius only)

    The Prius already have the computer, the Tire Pressure Monitoring system, the touch screen, the outside air temp, and the electrical juice to power an air pump, why not go all the way and just add a compressor to complete a Tire Pressure System?

    The advantage is Safety for the riding public (majority of cars out there have at least 1 underinflated tire), better for the environment and customer pocket via gas and tire savings, and more consistent real world mileage to EPA estimates (good public relations for Toyota).

    Heres how it should go...

    Via touch screen, driver sets desired tire pressure (yes, allow driver to set it higher as this is the norm for Prius drivers). On start, computer checks outside temp, tire pressure, and engine temp (to see if it has been running for a while to gauge if tires are warm or cold), and sets pressure within predictable range from driver set value. Computer can recheck/correct once after a certain number of miles to correct any errors. That's all!

    Disadvantage: Redesign on some wheel/suspension components to incorporate tire hose/passage, slight additional weight (about 5 lbs probably) for compressor and hoses. However, once incorporated into the manufacturing process only the cost of the compressor and hose would have to be added.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    The 3L = 3liters/100km = 80 mpg combined/90 highway. It has 14.7 second 0-60 acceleration.

    The regular Lupo gets about 50-60 mpg w/ 12s accel


    "I'd like to see a 90 mpg VW Lupo 3L married with a Civic Hybrid battery. ...it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel. -Troy"

    I suppose 10 seconds was overly optimistic. The Insight loses ~3 seconds (13.3->10.5), so the Lupo 3L Hybrid could conceivably drop from 14.7 to 11.9.

    Why would someone buy a Lupo 3L Hybrid? Same reason someone would buy an Insight - to get 80, 90, or even 100 mpg - and save money.

    I would buy one tomorrow.

  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    ___I wouldn’t call purchasing a POS a personal attack. The 4 items already posted are key to why no one in America would consider a Lupo.

    1. I don’t know where you are getting 90 mpg but the Euro Extra-Urban cycle is ~ 10% better then the EPA’s. There is a subtraction, not an addition.

    2. 14.7 seconds? It is at least a 17 + second car according to specs when in its special fuel economy mode. Can you find a car with that slow acceleration? Maybe a Peterbilt or Kenworth possibly but not a regular automobile?

    3. The Honda’s lose 1.3 - 1.5 seconds when their packs are dry. Even if someone were to waste the extra $3,000 - $5,000 for a Lupo w/ a VW designed IMA like setup included, it would be a 15 + second automobile.

    4. Someone’s personal experience speaks volumes about what is and isn’t a quality automobile:

    The Lupo is ONLY really efficient when the "ECO"-Switch is engaged. Then it has 45 hp instead of the 61 and the gears of the automatic transmission tend to change earlier.
    With 61 hp the Lupo uses around 4-5 litres per 100 kms.
    I've driven this thing because I thought it would be a nice economical run-around. But then I drove the Insight. Absolutely NO comparison.
    You'd rather walk than drive the Lupo 3L

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    FACTS matter more than personal opinion. Personal opinion is often wrong (like people who testdrive an Insight, then claim it can run on pure electric). Here are the FACTS:

    - VW Germany states that Lupo has an Eco mode (automatic) or no Eco mode (manual shift). The hp does not change. It's always 60 hp/45 kilowatts.

    - VW Germany states Lupo can do 14.7 seconds. It doesn't matter how it's done. It matters that it CAN be done for emergency accelerations.

    - carandriver.com states about the Insight:
    full-charge: 10.5 sec - empty-battery: 13.3 sec

    You act as though I'm pulling numbers out of my ***, but I assure you I'm not. Now stop telling me that the FACTS are wrong. These are FACTS, not opinions.

    They are not debateable.


    "The 4 items already posted are key to why no one in America would consider a Lupo."

    You say the same thing about the Accord Hybrid (no one/few will buy it). This is opinion and it's debateable, but imho you're wrong.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    P.S. OPINION: Given a 2000 pound Insight at 73 hp vs. a 2000 pound Lupo at 75 gas+electric hp, they should accelerate at exactly the same speed.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    OK - here we go...there are facts and there are experiences. People have their own experiences and do have opinions on them. Whether you agree with them or not - or had a similar experience or not - FINE. Agree to disagree and move on. Constant bickering and semantic ploys discourage people from joining in on the conversation.

    Too many horses have been beaten to death in hybrids, let's move on please.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    ___VW does not state the Lupo is a 90 mpg car anywhere let alone the fact that the Euro Extra-Urban spec is ~ 10% to generous.

    VW Germany states that Lupo has an Eco mode (automatic) or no Eco mode (manual shift). The hp does not change. It's always 60 hp/45 kilowatts.

    ___From my understanding, the Eco mode is not manual/automatic difference but a switch on the dash. There is no manual on this car. In its “Eco” mode, it is worth just 45 HP. Any wonder where the 17 - 20 second to 60 mph numbers come from? You can read more in the following:

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.ht- m

    “The lasting impressions are a beastly backache from the cheap seats and maddening frustration from the mechanical compromises necessary to achieve the car's remarkable fuel economy …

    The 3L Lupo uses a 1.2-liter, turbocharged, three-cylinder diesel engine linked to an unusual transmission …

    One way to cut fuel consumption is to eliminate the weight and power drain of accessories. So the 3L Lupo had no air conditioning, no power steering, no anything. You can add such options, but there'd go your three-liter claim …

    And the car seemed low-quality for the $3,000 premium price its fuel-sipping hardware commands …
    Not only did the seats turn torturous after about 90 minutes, a cup holder came apart in the first 10 miles …

    The economy-enhancing, easy-rolling tires and lightweight suspension transmitted not just noise but a roar to the passenger compartment on cobblestones, bricks and rough asphalt …
    It's unlikely many buyers in the USA would pay a premium for such privations …

    To work its magic, the transmission seeks the highest gear ratio that the engine can handle without stalling, resulting in acceleration so sluggish it almost can't claim to be acceleration at all. It'll cruise 80 miles an hour all day. But ask it to change speeds and oh, woe …

    Switch off the "Eco" button on the dashboard. The transmission gives up its obsession with fuel economy and begins to shift like a normal gearbox. That eliminates the engine shutoff at idle. And it gets rid of the risky free-wheeling, too. Still, the transmission takes too long to shift from gear to gear, and you're still stuck with the fall-on-its-face shift personality …
    As aggravating as the car is, it keeps the promise of good fuel economy. And it simultaneously proves two things: Extraordinary fuel efficiency is possible with current technology; achieving it is neither cheap nor pleasant.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    60 HP Lupo will take you from 0 to 60 in about 16-17s. You would probably be better off in a CRX HF which had 62 HP and weighed about 1800 lb. Lupo doesn't seem to have fuel economy advantage over the CRX however (I realize the measurement of EPA estimate to Euro standards may be different), both getting into low 50s.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Sylvia the Moderator is correct, but it's extremely frustrating to post a FACT:
    - Lupo 3L is a 60 hp engine
    - VW Germany lists 14.7 second 0-60 time
    - Euro highway test shows 2.7 L/100km (88mpg)
    - Car&Driver shows 10.5 vs. 13.3 with charged vs. uncharged Insight


    ...and then have someone say, "No it doesn't." How on earth can someone dispute hard, cold, black-n-white facts?

    As an engineer, I don't understand this.

  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    How about a simple troubleshooting guide ? Heck I just bought a $ 15.00 clock radio and it devotes a few pages in the back of its manual to troubleshooting and even has a flow chart but what does the owners manual that comes with a $ 25000.00 dollar Prius offer other than see your authorized dealer ? Nothing wrong with that but there are some simple problems that can be solved without a trip back to dealer.
  • henning_ghenning_g Member Posts: 1

    I drive a Lupo 3L for 4 years and I wanna correct your "FACTS".

    The car has 3 modes! Manually shifting or automatically shifting by the computer in order to have the most efficient gear. Her you have two options ECO / Non Eco. While you have ECO Mode, the engine turns off automatically if the car stands longer than 4 seconds and starts again, if you take your foot from the brake. The maximum speed is about 100 mph, as you have just 45 hp. With Non Eco Mode the car goes up to 115 mph as it has 61 hp available - you can tune the car for $50 and it has 80 hp ;) The consumption depends on the speed you go - at 60 mph you are around 90 mpg, if you go at maximum speed its around 40-45 mpg.
    The car is able to be fueled with biodiesel!
    Acceleration : about 14 seconds from 0-60, doesn´t matter if you use the ECO mode or not. During the kickdown, the engine has the full 61 hp!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I drive a Lupo 3L for 4 years

    Welcome to the Forum. I have some questions. Is that 90 mpg the same as US gallons? How is the comfort of the Lupo. It seems like a great little runabout car. Thank You, Gary
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