I got mistreated at the Anchorage Honda dealer - lied to, and left for the Nissan guy. So I'm biased. Anchorage has no competition anyway, so you get mistreated at pretty much all the dealers. I didn't shop Saturn. Again, ymmv. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I have to agree that the Saturn experience is generally better than anyone else. Whether or not you care for the warm and fuzzy approach is another matter. For example, I liked chatting with the Saturn Retail Assistant (whatever they call themselves) and the Service Manager took some time to talk with me about the CVT. Very nice. However, they were also calling me for months after I told them I was going to wait and see what the CVT would bring.
I've also taken my CR-V to an Acura dealer and the service has been "better". But then, Acura's overall rating isn't that much better than Honda's.
And Honda's are really inexpensive to buy and service? LOL
At Honda the motto should be "pay more and get less service".
Seriously though, Honda service is no where near Saturn service in general. Numbers prove it year after year as Saturn ranks #1 in service and Honda is way down the list. Maybe you have a good dealer but the one here in town is real bad unfortunately.
For the Honda I owned for 13 years I could count on one hand the times I had to bring it in for service. I expect the same out of my new one. So you can't miss what you don't need.
Just like the CR debate, how many people bring their vehicles in to Saturn for service? How many to Honda? This will effect the rankings.
That's no generalization about Saturn customer service. You will find almost no one who has been unhappy buying or owning a Saturn. Why do you think that is??? In all of my years of owning a Saturn, I have run across only one unhappy owner and pretty much, he got a lemon. None of us would be happy about that.
I stick to what I said, Saturn customer service is unbeatable. You can take that to the bank. But let me elaborate on that too.
I think it's great if an owner can "count on one hand the number" of service visits they've made for their Honda (Apparently, you are excluding oil changes and routine maintenance visits which ARE part of the customer service experience) But two things, all cars need maintenance at some point and all cars need service at some point.
My only contention is that Saturn has the best. I don't think that you can draw a conclusion that owners say it is better because they are there more. Honestly, if you are going to start drawing conclusions in that matter, woouldn't it reason that if you were there more that, you are NOT a happy customer and therefore you would rank them lower???
Look, the proof is out there that Saturn is number one in customer service. And I can give dozens of examples of my own experiences. But frankly, that would not be enough, neither is JD Powers or any other thing going to satisfy some folks. I can tell you though, do the research, You will find many unhappy Honda owners. I know a few myself.
Around here it's always been said, Honda's are the best cars when they are running and the worst cars when you need it fixed or warranty coverage. Frankly, I prefer a car where I am happy all the time and I have found that in Saturn.
And by the way, since we are bringing personal experience in the equation . . . I owned a 1996 SL-1 that ran as smooth and easy as a little car can. I never had to have anything other than routine maintenance until about 65K miles. At that point, the head cracked. Keep in mind, I had the standard 3 year 36K mile warranty so she was well out of warranty period. Now most of y'all know what that would normally mean. You are stuck with a very expensive service bill and still making payments. What a mess, huh? NOPE. I took that machine back to Saturn. They took one look and told me it was going to take some work to fix it but they would pick up the tab. In the mean time, they gave me a brand new Saturn SL-1 to drive around for a week. When I got mine back, they had replaced a page full of parts and she ran like she was brand new.
Move forward a year . . . My brother bought a Honda Accord used with 20K miles on it (still under warranty). A year and a half after he bought it, the transmission quit. He took it back to Honda and they balked at repairing it. They invented excuse ater excuse as to why they would not fix it. Finally after threats of legal action, Honda repaired the bugger. He was not given a rental or loaner and they kept the car two weeks. The other thing, my brother complains about is the cost of parts when he needs 'em.
These are just my experiences but they are worth noting.
I have purchased two Hondas , a '95 Civic Si and a '99 CR-V EX. Each was purchased at a different dealer. When shopping for the Civic, I encountered dealerships ranging from rude to very good. "I got one, but I can't let you drive it or even look it since I have someone else coming over to look at it later" one dealer said, as if I was just wasting his time. Or, "we don't stock that model" as the salesman walks away from me.
The very good dealer apologised that they didn't have one available for me to look at, explaining that it was in limited availability. The salesperson then checked to see if any were available on the east coast and arranged to have a red one and a white one shipped to the dealer for me to look at. I bought the red one, for less then MSRP. I wanted to have a CD changer added after I picked it up. The salesperson suggested I don't buy the Honda branded model, but instead buy an Alpine that was both compatible with the factory stereo and much cheaper than the Honda. But due to an honest scheduling mistake by the aftermarket salesperson, the installer was unable to come to the dealership on the day I arrived to have the changer installed. They quickly made arrangements to get the unit installed that day, but I had to drive to the installers shop, which turned out to be just a mile away. Two days later I received a letter of apology from the owner of the dealership along with a refund to cover the full cost of the changer and the install.
Buying my CR-V was a very good experience too. Internet sales are pain free. The dealer called me, arranged a time for me to come in, offered me a great trade in, and handed me the keys.
I did test dive some Saturns back when we were shopping for a vehicle for my wife ( she ended up getting a Chevy s-10). The salesperson was very new (almost scared to talk to us). She seemed uncertain about how to answer any questions about the vehicles and kept referring to a clip board she carried for answers.
Based upon my own personal experience, I 'd say the one Saturn dealer I visited once was average. My first visit to a Honda dealer was no better or worse. But I have had both bad experiences and good experiences. If my first visit to a Honda dealer was bad, and if I didn't have six Honda dealers in my area to compare to, I might have a different opinion. When I went to the Saturn dealer in '94, it was the only one around. Now there are many more. If I go back to look at a VUE, I would hope my experience would be better than my first visit.
Any service visits I've made to the Honda dealers has been pleasent and trouble free. All visits have been for regular maintainance. Remember, this has been my personal experience. YMMV
I don't normally take my car to the dealer for routine service. Tune ups? IMO not apllicable on today's vehicles, I change the spark plugs myself when necessary. Radiator flush also can be done at the quickie places. I would use the dealer for warranty work and things of that sort. Luckily I have a friend who is a mechanic and he can help with certain things. On my previous Honda the majority of its trips to the dealer were in the first six months related to a rattle. Last year before I got rid of it I was having a problem that I thought was an overheating issue, turned out to be a gauge so I had the dealer do that. Had them do the timing belt (won't be necessary on my new one) and water pump. One time I had a no start problem and I had it towed to the dealer where they replaced the distributor. So I do use the dealer when necessary but not for routine maintenance.
I would say the majority of people do take their cars in for maintenance to their dealers. I don't do oil changes at my dealer, but I have done brakes as they were more than competitive.
That's where my friend really came in handy. Replaced the front pads three times I believe and the rear whatever (that car had rear drums) once. If I had taken it in to a dealer or a brake shop I'd have "needed" new everything I'm sure. I'm not sure about people going to dealers for service. Their $ so they can spend it anywhere they want.
I have all of my service done at the dealer. The prices are competitive. The staff is well-versed on the Saturn models and they get the work done just as quickly as the fly-by-night operations.
If you have a friend to do the service, that's ideal but only if they are up-to-date on how to work on the new models. A lot has changed since the days of the F-100 pickup. A computer programmer can do more for ya than a mechanic. (LOL)
An example is the transmission fluid used in the Vue and other Saturns. Every Saturn model uses a different transmission fluid and they are different than other car or truck models. The Vue has transmission fluid you won't find in any other model and according to the manufacturer, if you put the wrong fluid in, you can destroy the tranny. Another example is the electric steering. While it is around, it is NOT common and you get somebody messing with it that doesn't know what they are doing, you could have problems. I know the dealer is knowledgeable about my Vue. So me? I trust them to do the work.
Look for your best deal and get your maintenance and oil changes done when you find the necessary coupons. Well that's what I do anyway, when the oil life gets below %25!
I didn't say that electric steering was normal maintenance. I said when the Vue needs "service" such as the electric steering, I would take it to the dealer.
Yesterday the light for malfunctioning went off on my 2002cr-v after work at 3:00pm took it to the dealer,according to the owner manual you should go right away. well i did. the dealer could not work on it i had to make an appointment, i told the service shop mng. that i was getting deploy and that i was not going to be able to do it. she told me that if that car do not feel funny to use it. greetings from sunny Miami
I am hesitating about the Vue and the CR-V at this time- so much that I am likely waiting for the fall to see the 2003 Vue.
Has anyone compared all the features in both the Vue and the CR-V? The CR has 4 disc brakes, back seat that move for and half and also flip forward. Can fit bikes standing up (don't think the Vue can), lift glass to reach in for little things, much space under the floor. All this is well priced too. Engine-wise the large 4 sits between the Vue's V6 and the 4 and still get either man or auto (auto has a better fuel mileage which is unseen so far).
In other words, feature wise, I find the CR-V much ahead of the Vue. I did like the ride in the Vue better, but except for that, the CR-V 2002 was impressive.
Can anyone tell me why I should go for the Vue over the CR-V? What are your vue on this? (no pound (sp?) intended).
The VUE seems to be a nice vehicle and I think it is more distinctively styled than the CRV, but there isn't whole lot more going for it.
If you are interested in placing a bike in the back standing up, I believe the only other SUV that can do that would be the Aztek. The Aztek isn't styled all that well, but neither is the CRV. I think you will find it to be a better alternative than both the CRV or the VUE, especially price wise. You should really check it out.
Duke - The CR-V will hold 2 small mountain bikes standing in the back, with the wheels attached. There's a picture of this in the CR-V brochure. However, many owners have found that their larger bikes will not fit this way. You can easily fit several if you get one of those racks which hooks onto the front forks (front wheels removed). I suspect you could do the same with the VUE.
Reasons to pick the VUE?
If you park in tight spaces, the plastics sides will come in handy. Your circumstances may vary, but most folks find the service at Saturn dealerhips to be much better than Hondas. The VUE can tow a good deal more than the CR-V.
I haven't done the options and prices game lately, so you probably have better insight on that front.
Personally, I'd go with the CR-V, but the VUE is a good alternative depending on your needs.
Being semi-proficient in statistics I must sy the the CRV did win every category with significance. The only other vehicle that can be argued as not being significantly different is the escape/tribute, but as you can see it is a combined stat for both vehicles.
Well, it looks like they got more than 2000 votes. That's a reasonable statistical sample, but not as big as I would like to see. The CR-V's closest competitor was the Escape/Tribute with only 25 fewer votes. I'd say it was pretty close.
They didn't publish it, but I'd like to know how the Forester and VUE did in this particular survey.
Funny, I am finishing a marketing class this morning, and we basically came to the same conclusion. Only about 42% of households have PC's. Most of those have Internet access, but it still becomes a smaller sample.
Every time Saturn (or Nissan) come out with a new vehicle, it is the one that will topple Honda. We are still waiting. I don't doubt the Vue as a vehicle, but I do doubt the long-term prospects for it in comparison to the CR-V. I have traded for more than a handful of old Saturns and Civics, and I can tell you that you can really tell the difference at 70,000 miles
Just a point of clarification - Dindak has it right. The issue is not whether it is a smaller sample. Rather, it is whether the sample is both representative and random. Random means that every owner would have the same likelihood of being polled and if you confine your polling only to those on the internet then not all owners have the same probability of being polled.
Also, internet polls have the shortcoming that responses are generated only by people who are aware of them and choose to go out of their way to respond. Whether they are representative cannot be established.
tidester : It's been a while since I graduated from university but I know a internet poll can not have statistical significance. Thanx for clarifying it.
millsk1 : Our office administrator has a 95 SL1 with almost 200K kms on it. Went for a ride with her a few weeks ago and it still runs great. Saturn never aimed to topple CR-V in year one. In fact, Saturn's production levels for the VUE in year one were set very low. I don't really like the Saturn S-series cars, but I do like the VUE. Seems quite solid to me.
Coming from a Honda, I can honestly say I am impressed with the solid feel of our new AWD V6 Vue. It's been a great rig so far and we have had zero problems. While we liked the CR-V also, the treatment we got from the Saturn dealer sealed the deal. It was the most relaxing car purchase I have ever had.
In Illinois the Chicago Tribune ran an internet poll to aprove the design on the forthcoming Illinois Quarter. One featured a design submitted by a suburban Chicago school kid. I read that the school the kid had his classmates vote for his design as a computer class assignment.
Onto the Vue, Saturnfans reports in recent NHTA tests the Vue earned five stars for three crash categories, 4 stars for passenger side impact, and three stars for roll over, While everyone would want a better roll over mark, the reality of SUV design suggests they will never hit car territory in that category. It sounds as though Saturn paid a lot of attention to safety in the Vue and came out with a great score.
Good news for the VUE. Sounds like the VUE and CR-V are going to be very close competitors over the next few years in terms of performance and safety. I also see the VUE will have a 2WD V6 configuration next year which will be excellent for us not wanting AWD.
NHTSA link to the press release re most recent crash test results (including the VUE results). Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Dindak: Honda and Saturn are really providing some exciting choices in this segment. Saturn announced that for '03 owing to the success of this year's Sports Edition package, it will have an Active Expression Edition package. The yellow may be a little loud for me, but everything else else offered with the package look pretty good.
Well I guess you have something against Saturn and love Hondas judging by your post. I was not aware the best automotive journalists worked for Forbes Magazine. People buy different vehicles for different reasons. A V6 Vue can tow and go offroading somewhat neither which a CR-V can do. Honda also has this thing with producing BORING cars. At least the Vue is attractive at least to my eyes. This is one reason I won't find myself in a Honda car for quite a while. Also if we all cared so much about resale value we would all be driving civics and accords and life would be dull..see my point?
This guy is clearly in the minority as mostly every review I have read has been positive w.r.t. the VUE. Motor Week named it the best small SUV over CR-V.
I think the Forbes guy is used to reviewing cars 3 X the price and was mad because they made him review a vehicle for the common man. The nerve!
And Saturn is the pits vis a vis Honda. Saturn appeals to undiscerning types.
And Saturn is a LT loser for GM. They - GM - will never recoup their investment on that mess. The Vue is virtually universally recognized as, if not the worst in its class, then barely middling. Motorweek is interesting, but they obviously have bizarre picks.
The CR-V easily wins the overwhelming number of professional evaluations.
Your comments are totally inaccurate to say the least. While I don't dispute the CRV is the class leader, the VUE is an extremely strong competitor and I'd challenge you to list the articles that "universally recognize the VUE as the"worst in class". I have not seen one.
You have probably never even sat in a VUE and you are clearly a classic Honda snob. You'd be better off posting in the Honda forum where even the people there would find your comments absurd.
btw, I can hardly be responsible for the intemperate responses of others. I believe consumer surveys back up my statement, i.e., that Saturns sell less on the attributes of their vehicles - or lack thereof - then on the "buying experience". It is an understatement to say that no Saturn is anywhere near the leader in its class.
I'm not sure what you are reading but the verdict on the VUE by C&D is a "a good first attempt" and I see no where in the article where they call it the "worst in class" as you claim. Go back to the Honda CR-V form and spread your misinformation there. Your post are clearly biased and completely inaccurate to put it mildly.
As a previous Honda owner, I will tell you that the our new AWD Vue has been problem free and wonderful. While the CR-V was nice also, we preferred the Vue and are very happy. I suspect you have never driven or even sat in a Vue. Your comments are out of line and your reference to one magazine article hardly back up your claims since the Car & Driver review is no where near as negative as you claim.
Maybe, but I'm often surprised by what people are cross-shopping at Edmunds.
Be fun to bribe the site coders to figure out what models people are looking at when they use the Vehicle Comparision Tool. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
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Steve
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I've also taken my CR-V to an Acura dealer and the service has been "better". But then, Acura's overall rating isn't that much better than Honda's.
At Honda the motto should be "pay more and get less service".
Seriously though, Honda service is no where near Saturn service in general. Numbers prove it year after year as Saturn ranks #1 in service and Honda is way down the list. Maybe you have a good dealer but the one here in town is real bad unfortunately.
Just like the CR debate, how many people bring their vehicles in to Saturn for service? How many to Honda? This will effect the rankings.
I don't think I made the statment you quoted.
Wow!! News to me.
I stick to what I said, Saturn customer service is unbeatable. You can take that to the bank. But let me elaborate on that too.
I think it's great if an owner can "count on one hand the number" of service visits they've made for their Honda (Apparently, you are excluding oil changes and routine maintenance visits which ARE part of the customer service experience) But two things, all cars need maintenance at some point and all cars need service at some point.
My only contention is that Saturn has the best. I don't think that you can draw a conclusion that owners say it is better because they are there more. Honestly, if you are going to start drawing conclusions in that matter, woouldn't it reason that if you were there more that, you are NOT a happy customer and therefore you would rank them lower???
Look, the proof is out there that Saturn is number one in customer service. And I can give dozens of examples of my own experiences. But frankly, that would not be enough, neither is JD Powers or any other thing going to satisfy some folks. I can tell you though, do the research, You will find many unhappy Honda owners. I know a few myself.
Around here it's always been said, Honda's are the best cars when they are running and the worst cars when you need it fixed or warranty coverage.
Frankly, I prefer a car where I am happy all the time and I have found that in Saturn.
And by the way, since we are bringing personal experience in the equation . . . I owned a 1996 SL-1 that ran as smooth and easy as a little car can. I never had to have anything other than routine maintenance until about 65K miles. At that point, the head cracked. Keep in mind, I had the standard 3 year 36K mile warranty so she was well out of warranty period. Now most of y'all know what that would normally mean. You are stuck with a very expensive service bill and still making payments. What a mess, huh? NOPE. I took that machine back to Saturn. They took one look and told me it was going to take some work to fix it but they would pick up the tab. In the mean time, they gave me a brand new Saturn SL-1 to drive around for a week. When I got mine back, they had replaced a page full of parts and she ran like she was brand new.
Move forward a year . . . My brother bought a Honda Accord used with 20K miles on it (still under warranty). A year and a half after he bought it, the transmission quit. He took it back to Honda and they balked at repairing it. They invented excuse ater excuse as to why they would not fix it. Finally after threats of legal action, Honda repaired the bugger. He was not given a rental or loaner and they kept the car two weeks. The other thing, my brother complains about is the cost of parts when he needs 'em.
These are just my experiences but they are worth noting.
The very good dealer apologised that they didn't have one available for me to look at, explaining that it was in limited availability. The salesperson then checked to see if any were available on the east coast and arranged to have a red one and a white one shipped to the dealer for me to look at. I bought the red one, for less then MSRP. I wanted to have a CD changer added after I picked it up. The salesperson suggested I don't buy the Honda branded model, but instead buy an Alpine that was both compatible with the factory stereo and much cheaper than the Honda. But due to an honest scheduling mistake by the aftermarket salesperson, the installer was unable to come to the dealership on the day I arrived to have the changer installed. They quickly made arrangements to get the unit installed that day, but I had to drive to the installers shop, which turned out to be just a mile away. Two days later I received a letter of apology from the owner of the dealership along with a refund to cover the full cost of the changer and the install.
Buying my CR-V was a very good experience too. Internet sales are pain free. The dealer called me, arranged a time for me to come in, offered me a great trade in, and handed me the keys.
I did test dive some Saturns back when we were shopping for a vehicle for my wife ( she ended up getting a Chevy s-10). The salesperson was very new (almost scared to talk to us). She seemed uncertain about how to answer any questions about the vehicles and kept referring to a clip board she carried for answers.
Based upon my own personal experience, I 'd say the one Saturn dealer I visited once was average. My first visit to a Honda dealer was no better or worse. But I have had both bad experiences and good experiences.
If my first visit to a Honda dealer was bad, and if I didn't have six Honda dealers in my area to compare to, I might have a different opinion. When I went to the Saturn dealer in '94, it was the only one around. Now there are many more. If I go back to look at a VUE, I would hope my experience would be better than my first visit.
If you have a friend to do the service, that's ideal but only if they are up-to-date on how to work on the new models. A lot has changed since the days of the F-100 pickup. A computer programmer can do more for ya than a mechanic. (LOL)
An example is the transmission fluid used in the Vue and other Saturns. Every Saturn model uses a different transmission fluid and they are different than other car or truck models. The Vue has transmission fluid you won't find in any other model and according to the manufacturer, if you put the wrong fluid in, you can destroy the tranny. Another example is the electric steering. While it is around, it is NOT common and you get somebody messing with it that doesn't know what they are doing, you could have problems. I know the dealer is knowledgeable about my Vue. So me? I trust them to do the work.
Sometimes I have the dealer do maintenance. Sometimes I do it. Sometimes I have the local lube shop do it.
greetings from sunny Miami
Has anyone compared all the features in both the Vue and the CR-V? The CR has 4 disc brakes, back seat that move for and half and also flip forward. Can fit bikes standing up (don't think the Vue can), lift glass to reach in for little things, much space under the floor. All this is well priced too.
Engine-wise the large 4 sits between the Vue's V6 and the 4 and still get either man or auto (auto has a better fuel mileage which is unseen so far).
In other words, feature wise, I find the CR-V much ahead of the Vue. I did like the ride in the Vue better, but except for that, the CR-V 2002 was impressive.
Can anyone tell me why I should go for the Vue over the CR-V?
What are your vue on this? (no pound (sp?) intended).
If you are interested in placing a bike in the back standing up, I believe the only other SUV that can do that would be the Aztek. The Aztek isn't styled all that well, but neither is the CRV. I think you will find it to be a better alternative than both the CRV or the VUE, especially price wise. You should really check it out.
Love our AWD V6!!
Reasons to pick the VUE?
If you park in tight spaces, the plastics sides will come in handy. Your circumstances may vary, but most folks find the service at Saturn dealerhips to be much better than Hondas. The VUE can tow a good deal more than the CR-V.
I haven't done the options and prices game lately, so you probably have better insight on that front.
Personally, I'd go with the CR-V, but the VUE is a good alternative depending on your needs.
Style is in the eye of the beholder!
tidester
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Guess I don't know where you are really trying to go with that???
Just my assumption, others may differ.
-ss4
The word "distinctive" certainly applies! :-)
tidester
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They didn't publish it, but I'd like to know how the Forester and VUE did in this particular survey.
CR-V is definitely one of the best on the road IMO but internet polls have very little meaning.
Also, internet polls have the shortcoming that responses are generated only by people who are aware of them and choose to go out of their way to respond. Whether they are representative cannot be established.
tidester
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millsk1 : Our office administrator has a 95 SL1 with almost 200K kms on it. Went for a ride with her a few weeks ago and it still runs great. Saturn never aimed to topple CR-V in year one. In fact, Saturn's production levels for the VUE in year one were set very low. I don't really like the Saturn S-series cars, but I do like the VUE. Seems quite solid to me.
Onto the Vue, Saturnfans reports in recent NHTA tests the Vue earned five stars for three crash categories, 4 stars for passenger side impact, and three stars for roll over, While everyone would want a better roll over mark, the reality of SUV design suggests they will never hit car territory in that category. It sounds as though Saturn paid a lot of attention to safety in the Vue and came out with a great score.
Steve
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Dindak: Honda and Saturn are really providing some exciting choices in this segment. Saturn announced that for '03 owing to the success of this year's Sports Edition package, it will have an Active Expression Edition package. The yellow may be a little loud for me, but everything else else offered with the package look pretty good.
"How bad is the VUE? Click for the carnage."
http://www.forbes.com/2002/06/17/0617test.html
Wanna bet it has lousy resale value too?
I think the Forbes guy is used to reviewing cars 3 X the price and was mad because they made him review a vehicle for the common man. The nerve!
And Saturn is a LT loser for GM. They - GM - will never recoup their investment on that mess. The Vue is virtually universally recognized as, if not the worst in its class, then barely middling. Motorweek is interesting, but they obviously have bizarre picks.
The CR-V easily wins the overwhelming number of professional evaluations.
You have probably never even sat in a VUE and you are clearly a classic Honda snob. You'd be better off posting in the Honda forum where even the people there would find your comments absurd.
I'll kindly ask all of you to stay clear of the personal attacks.
Thanks.
tidester
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http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/5best/2002/2002_5best_trucks_honda_crv.xml?keywords=cr-v
And then there's the Vue from the bottom:
http://www.caranddriver.com/
January 2002
btw, I can hardly be responsible for the intemperate responses of others. I believe consumer surveys back up my statement, i.e., that Saturns sell less on the attributes of their vehicles - or lack thereof - then on the "buying experience". It is an understatement to say that no Saturn is anywhere near the leader in its class.
You comments are not constructive or appreciated.
Be fun to bribe the site coders to figure out what models people are looking at when they use the Vehicle Comparision Tool.
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards