The gearing for the old CR-V (manual) is closer to the Lo1 on a GV than the 1st gear of a Forester (manual). I'm recalling this from a very posting where a fella named Pb provided graphs for comparison. The new model is slightly higher, but still pretty low.
Here's the 5 speed model's gearing for both current and old:
My '99 is a five speed and, yes, you use 1st to get started, then shift almost immediately. I can start it in 2nd without too much difficulty, but it takes a few tries before you get accustomed to doing it. It's still easier to deal with the quick shift.
FWIW, the old AWD Civic wagon had a creeper 1st gear to use when slogging through the sticky stuff. It would be a nice addition to the CR-V.
...Demand is so high for Honda CR-Vs at Frank Ursomarso's Union Park Automotive Group dealerships in Wilmington, Delaware, that he said he sold the demonstration model his wife had been driving this week. "The success of Honda right now is beyond comprehension," said Ursomarso, who has sold Hondas since 1975 as well as Fords and other auto brands. "We sell out of them as soon as we get them." ....
OneLucky1 - You have a full diameter spacesaver spare. At least, assuming you haven't replaced it with something else. The full diameter is required for use with the AWD system. However, the tire is still a donut and not suitable for use in off-road situations.
It hasn't been crashed by an independant agency, yet.
Honda has it's own crash facility where they have tested products in the past. So far their predictions have been accurate, but it aint written in stone. Honda predicts:
5-Star NCAP frontal impact rating for driver and passenger. 5-star SINCAP side impact rating for driver and passenger. "Good" IIHS rating for front offset impact. Rear Impact: Exceed all government requirements. Rollover: Exceed all government requirements. Flat and angled barrier: Exceed all government requirements.
No doubt the CR-V is in great demand. That said, there aren't any VUE's sitting on the local lot either. Unfortunately for Saturn VUE production is no where near CR-V and there is still no CVT model. My contact at Saturn said late summer now and they will be 03 models, too late for me.
As far as I know, the last official word was that the CVT's were supposed to be out in April, though it looks like that's obviously not going to happen. The issue is said to center around sub-quality parts coming out of the supplier in Hungary.
I should have brought the article in, but some guy commenting on the Vue's 50K target sales (lower than previously reported) said (paraphrasing) that they can easily sell 80K. I hope he has his resume updated ;-).
I'm sure if they lowered the finance rates a little they would sell a lot more. I was offered 5.9% which is high as most other GM product is around 0-4%
...was interesting. Saturn seems to be confused as to where it wants to go. It talked about the Ion and how it was supposed to be off of some common platform, but they scrapped that idea (I'm sure the Saturn people will tell me how wrong I am). But what is the vestige of this previous plan? The Ion's instrument cluster in the center of the dash which was supposed to facilitate easier manufacturing (RHD vs. LHD). So now they don't get the shared platform benefits and they have a vehicle with an instrument cluster that people will hate (that's what the article said--referring to the Echo and how no one likes it's cluster).
I just can't resist. Honda has no financing deals on the CR-V and they have less than a 10 days supply of inventory. Even without deals I got 5.75% from AHFC, not bad but I think I will do a home equity and pay the car note off early.
The ION is based on the Delta platform, it will also be used in the 2004 Chevrolet Malibu. The center mounted gauge pack only helps with the cost of International manufacturing. The center gauges just have to rotated when produced for a left drive country.
I agree that financing incentives will not help sell the VUE. You have to remember the VUE is an all new model, never before offered. While the CRV is a new model of an already existing vehicle that previously sold well. Whenever a model is refreshed like the CRV, sales typically increase. Look at the Liberty, new Dodge Ram, Chevy Trailblazer, Ford Explorer, and too many others to list. Saturn's VUE will have to gain market share of it's own. I personally think that sales of close to 4000 units in conceivably it's second month are pretty darn good. I think that monthly sales of 5000 will be easily reached by Saturn by the end of this year. Granted those aren't huge numbers, but considering all the competitors in this market it's not bad.
You're going to force me to dig the article out of the trash. It talked about how the current Ion platform is not the one they originally wanted to go with or something like that. Something about the Cavalier being involved too. Bottom line, they changed at some point in the development and now they are stuck with the instrument cluster in the center, which was supposed to help with the (other original?) shared platform. I'm not going to debate the merits of the article, I didn't write it.
No, just to provide a realistic viewpoint. You know like pointing out that the Vue is not cheaper than the CR-V (in the US, certain models, YMMV).
No car rules. They all have problems. I'm an equal opportunity (to use your word) basher. No different than many here or there or wherever. I will say that (IMO) the Saturn loyalists seem pretty grounded to reality unlike some I run across. People do like their Saturns. A woman I work with had one totalled (I forgot to ask her how the panels held up-obviously it was a bad accident) and she went right out and bought another.
GM_Litogation is correct about establishing itself as a new vehicle in an already established market. When you already have a strong reputation, it isn't hard to sell an improved model. OTOH, the Saturn folks have to swim upstream for their piece of the pie.
It can be done though. The Hyundai Santa Fe is carving out quite a niche for itself. They are selling roughly half as many units as the Escape, but they have 1/5th the number of dealerships. I think their sales just about tie those of the Toyota Rav4. It took a little while for Hyundai to build that kind of presence in the market. It's possible that the VUE could do the same.
You are referring to the article in the May issue of Automobile. The article was rehashing fairly old news. GM's original plan was to use the Delta platform for its compact US cars -- the Ion, the Cavalier, the Sunfire, if it is made, and the Solstice, if it is made and its small European car, the Astra. These plans were made before Fiat started getting into mounds of trouble. Things have changed, and Fiat is in trouble.
GM has a put which Fiat can exercise and force GM to buy all of its shares in, I believe two years. GM no longer wants to buy all of Fiats shares (it currently owns 50% of Fiat). In order to assist Fiat turn things around, GM has opted to use the next generation Fiat small car platform in Europe.
The Automobile article is very poorly researched, however. I have read in other sources that the Delta platform will be used in South America and in India, Thailand, and GM's Japanese partners (which by the way, use rhd).
I do not think, as Automobile suggests, the center mount guages in the Ion were designed to facilitate rhd/lhd conversions. The Ion was never itended to sell in Europe. I also note that when people criticize the Ion's center mount, they always bring up the Echo but conveniently foget about the Mini Cooper, which also has center mount, and is considered the hot niche car of the year.
Finally, what on Earth could any of GM's global business plans mean to the Saturn VUE, except maybe a cheap shot?
carguy : "realistic viewpoint".. LOL. Haven't seen you criticize anything on your CR-V yet.
logic1 : Lots of cheap shots around this thread. Not sure why. Center stack is cool on the Mini but a stupid idea for Saturn. Too funny.
varmit : I think the VUE will carve out a decent market share, probably a 3rd or 4th best seller eventually. It will never top Escape and CR-V but that's ok.
dindak: Go to the CR-V board and scroll back (quite a few posts, lots of activity there) and see my rant about the CEL problem I had. I don't pull any punches related to my vehicle either. And I believe I was just paraphrasing the article and it's comment about the center pod. But I will editorialize and say to your comment that the Mini is a niche vehicle and therefore can be a little quirky. The Ion is supposed to be a mainstream vehicle so "quirks" like a center instrument pod won't be as well received, IMO. Motorweek (shown in my area yesterday) did a piece on the NYC auto show and showed the Ion-quad coupe (or whatever it is called).
logic1: I believe the article I read was from the Chicago Tribune (don't get Automobile mag). It may have been a version of that article. Was just trying to make conversation, wasn't really trying to get a cheap shot in as someone implied. I have to wonder if people don't have a chip on their shoulder to be so sensitive.
As I said I am an equal opportunity basher, go see my comments about the Honda Element.
You use the term "bash". I use the term "talking". I try to offer my input and yes (hold on to your hat) my opinion. May I suggest that if you don't like my posts don't read them.
I had a problem with my '02 CR-V. The CEL came on after ~1600 miles. Doing some research I found that it was related to a computer glitch. The dealer pulled a code that would normally have told them to replace the O2 sensor, but Honda told them not to replace it, just reset the CEL. Honda is working on a modification to the computer that will be available in May. Was I happy that I had a problem one month into ownership? No way. But as I have said here, ad nauseum, all vehicles have problems.
Maybe you should buy the Vue and then you will have a vested interest and will try and correct incorrect statements about your vehicle, bring up articles that you feel are relevant, etc. Just like I am doing. It seems the one Vue owner who did post here has left, we could use some representation from that side.
I would love a VUE, but unfortunately my wife wants a CVT model which is not available and we can't afford the V6. I think she would try a 5-speed if the sport package was available in Canada, but since it's not I think we are likely going to pass on the VUE for this next lease.
I think we will be getting an Alero at the end of the month as we are getting $1000 CR to buy one. Has the same Ecotec engine and we can probably get by with out an SUV for another 3 years. That said, we will likely get a CVT VUE in 3 years if nothing better comes along as we should have 2 kidlets by then.
"a cement wall" You seemed to have invented it. You still haven't acknowledged that the Vue cost more than the CR-V (US, certain models). I admit when I am wrong, humility is a good thing.
Since the one Vue owner only wants to talk about the Vue in it's own forum I guess the CR-V vs. Vue debate is over. Maybe it can be started again once the Vue has comparable models available (AWD AT 4 cyl., etc.)
I will post here as often and about anything I want. You know the theory about reverse psychology, well you should have used it.
I have been more than gracious in this thread, yet my head gets bitten off. Enough of that.
You should move somewhere else where you can complain when people tell the truth, debunk other people's blatantly false statements, etc.
And for anyone who cares (apparently no one is interested in talking about the CR-V vs. the Vue), the CR-V costs less than the Vue. Look it up for yourself.
Is there any other factor, besides price, that can be compared on these two vehicles? The prices are close; you can option them up or down. Who gives a flying fig about which is cheaper in what configuration?
I will be more than happy to discuss CRV's and Vues with sensible folks that have something to contribute in an intelligent well-thought-out AND CONSIDERATE manner. Sometimes, you just have to agree to disagree and move on. If you can't move on, then you'll be left talking to yourself.
Maynard is right. There's plenty left to talk about with these two fine models without getting into a fire fight over every little thing. Let's do it.
I think we need to talk less about what we're talking about and just talk about it.
Onelucky7 - Any good stories/experiences with your VUE? Maybe a rousing tale of off-road bravado will find us a topic to discuss. How about the largest item you've fit into your VUE. The longest trip? The worst weather? The folks on the Forester board were just talking about the stinkiest thing they've left in their Soobs (hey, it was entertaining). How about that?
That would be a good name for a band. Finally saw a VUE in person. Nicely proportioned. Slightly aggressive looking. Bigger looking than I thought it would be (those Ads making it look REALLY small don't help).
I don't have much to add other than that (what, no flame bait?)
Well, as a matter of fact, I have taken my Vue off-road a couple of times. . . . just fields and mud mostly. . . nothing too hazardous.
I went to the new owners workshop this evening. It was very informative.
I think one of the most unique and nifty features that I have found useful for putting long items like rakes or boards in the Vue, is that front folding flat seat.
The piece around the gear shift with the P R D L 2 emblem in it was peeling on the edge. I took it in today and they replaced that piece in a few minutes. I was there anyway for the new owner's workshop which was definitely worth the time. They have the mechanics and service staff give the workshop. They take a Vue off the lot and "walk through" the vehicle from top to bottom stressing some good-to-know points. It's more than just "how to check the oil". They show you all the ins and outs and some helpful hints individual to the Vue. They also have dinner for you and they give away door prizes. It lasts about an hour and a half. VERY HELPFUL, even if you know something about cars.
I also want to relay a quick story of a recent experience with Saturn . . . I got a phone call yesterday from Spring Hill. The lady on the other end told me they had received the letter I sent (After I bought my Saturn, I had such a good experience, that I sent a letter to the President in Spring Hill). She told me that they were pleased that I had such a wonderful experience and they wanted me to know that they would share my compliments with the local dealership and the salesman would receive a "pat on the back" type of award. We had a very pleasant conversation. An I have actually sent two letters to Spring Hill, the first one talking about my great experience buying the Vue (That's the one she called about)and the second making suggestions for later Vue models (or telling them my likes and dislikes). In both instances, they have sent me an extensive response via email from a live person rather than a form letter. And the first one, they called me about.
One thing that no other company can beat is the way that Saturn goes above and beyond to please it's customers. These examples above were no exception. And I could give a few more if you need them.
Might pay to nose around the JDPower site. Saturn dealers rate way up there (often around #1). Honda tends to be below average in their US satisfaction surveys. Your local experience may vary.
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....to be greeted with a trail of rose petals and champagne. It's a car dealer. I know Saturn scores well but IMO it's all part of the "experience". Saturn buyers aren't going to rank their dealers low. While Honda shoppers don't care. I can always take my Honda to an Acura dealer if I really want high class treatment.
Comments
Sorry about the poor picture quallity. We've been after this particular owner to get a decent digicam.
Here's the 5 speed model's gearing for both current and old:
Gear: new/old
1st: 3.533/3.500
2nd: 1.880/1.956
3rd: 1.212/1.344
4th: .0921/1.071
5th: .0738/.812
Reverse: 3.583/3.461
The two models in automatic trim:
1st: 2.684/2.722
2nd: 1.535/1.516
3rd: 0.974/1.079
4th: 0.638/0.711
Reverse: 2.000/1.955
My '99 is a five speed and, yes, you use 1st to get started, then shift almost immediately. I can start it in 2nd without too much difficulty, but it takes a few tries before you get accustomed to doing it. It's still easier to deal with the quick shift.
FWIW, the old AWD Civic wagon had a creeper 1st gear to use when slogging through the sticky stuff. It would be a nice addition to the CR-V.
...Demand is so high for Honda CR-Vs at Frank Ursomarso's Union Park Automotive Group dealerships in Wilmington, Delaware, that he said he sold the demonstration model his wife had been driving this week.
"The success of Honda right now is beyond comprehension," said Ursomarso, who has sold Hondas since 1975 as well as Fords and other auto brands. "We sell out of them as soon as we get them." ....
Honda has it's own crash facility where they have tested products in the past. So far their predictions have been accurate, but it aint written in stone. Honda predicts:
5-Star NCAP frontal impact rating for driver and passenger.
5-star SINCAP side impact rating for driver and passenger.
"Good" IIHS rating for front offset impact.
Rear Impact: Exceed all government requirements.
Rollover: Exceed all government requirements.
Flat and angled barrier: Exceed all government requirements.
I just can't resist. Honda has no financing deals on the CR-V and they have less than a 10 days supply of inventory. Even without deals I got 5.75% from AHFC, not bad but I think I will do a home equity and pay the car note off early.
I agree that financing incentives will not help sell the VUE. You have to remember the VUE is an all new model, never before offered. While the CRV is a new model of an already existing vehicle that previously sold well. Whenever a model is refreshed like the CRV, sales typically increase. Look at the Liberty, new Dodge Ram, Chevy Trailblazer, Ford Explorer, and too many others to list. Saturn's VUE will have to gain market share of it's own. I personally think that sales of close to 4000 units in conceivably it's second month are pretty darn good. I think that monthly sales of 5000 will be easily reached by Saturn by the end of this year. Granted those aren't huge numbers, but considering all the competitors in this market it's not bad.
Honda rules!
No car rules. They all have problems. I'm an equal opportunity (to use your word) basher. No different than many here or there or wherever. I will say that (IMO) the Saturn loyalists seem pretty grounded to reality unlike some I run across. People do like their Saturns. A woman I work with had one totalled (I forgot to ask her how the panels held up-obviously it was a bad accident) and she went right out and bought another.
Saturn rules (at least this week).
It can be done though. The Hyundai Santa Fe is carving out quite a niche for itself. They are selling roughly half as many units as the Escape, but they have 1/5th the number of dealerships. I think their sales just about tie those of the Toyota Rav4. It took a little while for Hyundai to build that kind of presence in the market. It's possible that the VUE could do the same.
GM has a put which Fiat can exercise and force GM to buy all of its shares in, I believe two years. GM no longer wants to buy all of Fiats shares (it currently owns 50% of Fiat). In order to assist Fiat turn things around, GM has opted to use the next generation Fiat small car platform in Europe.
The Automobile article is very poorly researched, however. I have read in other sources that the Delta platform will be used in South America and in India, Thailand, and GM's Japanese partners (which by the way, use rhd).
I do not think, as Automobile suggests, the center mount guages in the Ion were designed to facilitate rhd/lhd conversions. The Ion was never itended to sell in Europe. I also note that when people criticize the Ion's center mount, they always bring up the Echo but conveniently foget about the Mini Cooper, which also has center mount, and is considered the hot niche car of the year.
Finally, what on Earth could any of GM's global business plans mean to the Saturn VUE, except maybe a cheap shot?
logic1 : Lots of cheap shots around this thread. Not sure why. Center stack is cool on the Mini but a stupid idea for Saturn. Too funny.
varmit : I think the VUE will carve out a decent market share, probably a 3rd or 4th best seller eventually. It will never top Escape and CR-V but that's ok.
logic1: I believe the article I read was from the Chicago Tribune (don't get Automobile mag). It may have been a version of that article. Was just trying to make conversation, wasn't really trying to get a cheap shot in as someone implied. I have to wonder if people don't have a chip on their shoulder to be so sensitive.
As I said I am an equal opportunity basher, go see my comments about the Honda Element.
"I'm an equal opportunity basher" - Not here you aren't, you strictly bash Saturn
I had a problem with my '02 CR-V. The CEL came on after ~1600 miles. Doing some research I found that it was related to a computer glitch. The dealer pulled a code that would normally have told them to replace the O2 sensor, but Honda told them not to replace it, just reset the CEL. Honda is working on a modification to the computer that will be available in May. Was I happy that I had a problem one month into ownership? No way. But as I have said here, ad nauseum, all vehicles have problems.
Whatever.
Back to the VUE and CRV.
I think we will be getting an Alero at the end of the month as we are getting $1000 CR to buy one. Has the same Ecotec engine and we can probably get by with out an SUV for another 3 years. That said, we will likely get a CVT VUE in 3 years if nothing better comes along as we should have 2 kidlets by then.
Geez, hope the crust stays dry.
It's not worth the effort or time and it's not fun to discuss opinions with a cement wall.
If you want to read what owners are saying about their Vues, go to the Vue board.
Since the one Vue owner only wants to talk about the Vue in it's own forum I guess the CR-V vs. Vue debate is over. Maybe it can be started again once the Vue has comparable models available (AWD AT 4 cyl., etc.)
I have been more than gracious in this thread, yet my head gets bitten off. Enough of that.
You should move somewhere else where you can complain when people tell the truth, debunk other people's blatantly false statements, etc.
And for anyone who cares (apparently no one is interested in talking about the CR-V vs. the Vue), the CR-V costs less than the Vue. Look it up for yourself.
Can't compare identical packages (as they don't exist) so you can't say one is cheaper than the other. Unfortunately you don't understand that.
Let's say Honda's are cheaper , better and you win.
The prices are close; you can option them up or down. Who gives a flying fig about which is cheaper in what configuration?
Maynard is right. There's plenty left to talk about with these two fine models without getting into a fire fight over every little thing. Let's do it.
Where would you like to begin?
Onelucky7 - Any good stories/experiences with your VUE? Maybe a rousing tale of off-road bravado will find us a topic to discuss. How about the largest item you've fit into your VUE. The longest trip? The worst weather? The folks on the Forester board were just talking about the stinkiest thing they've left in their Soobs (hey, it was entertaining).
I don't have much to add other than that (what, no flame bait?)
Oh, never mind. Inside joke
I went to the new owners workshop this evening. It was very informative.
I think one of the most unique and nifty features that I have found useful for putting long items like rakes or boards in the Vue, is that front folding flat seat.
I also want to relay a quick story of a recent experience with Saturn . . . I got a phone call yesterday from Spring Hill. The lady on the other end told me they had received the letter I sent (After I bought my Saturn, I had such a good experience, that I sent a letter to the President in Spring Hill). She told me that they were pleased that I had such a wonderful experience and they wanted me to know that they would share my compliments with the local dealership and the salesman would receive a "pat on the back" type of award. We had a very pleasant conversation. An I have actually sent two letters to Spring Hill, the first one talking about my great experience buying the Vue (That's the one she called about)and the second making suggestions for later Vue models (or telling them my likes and dislikes). In both instances, they have sent me an extensive response via email from a live person rather than a form letter. And the first one, they called me about.
One thing that no other company can beat is the way that Saturn goes above and beyond to please it's customers. These examples above were no exception. And I could give a few more if you need them.
A generalization to say the least.
I'm very happy with my dealer. Good service isn't exclusive to Saturn. But with Saturn you pay for it.
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