GTO values & anything else GTO related

parmparm Member Posts: 724
edited March 2014 in Pontiac
After searching the achieves, I couldn't find a discussion topic specifically for GTO's. So, I thought it was high-time we had one.

The 1965-67 GTO is the perfect size for my needs for a 60's convertible cruiser. It has terrific style, plenty of ooooh & ahhhhh factor, good power, can seat 4 comfortably, but is not a land yacht. Furthermore, Pontiac made a ton of these things so availability (cars & parts) is not a huge issue.

BUT, the market puts a premium on these for reasons we can all pretty much identify with. However, dealers are the worst offenders when it comes to asking prices (what a shock).

Value guides suggest that a good #2 64-67 GTO has a value in the range of $20,000 to $25,000 depending on options. However, I've seen dealers asking around $34,000 to $36,000+ for nice (non-RAM Air) '67 GTO convertibles.

Can anyone tell me if classic car dealers (and I'm talking about the good, reputable ones - there are some aren't there?) are ACTUALLY GETTING $35K +/- for a non RAM Air '67 GTO convertible?

NOTE: I tend to use #2 pricing since I've been told and have read that #1 generally refers to museum quality cars and would most likely not be daily drivers (which is what I want).

Has anyone purchased a very nice mid-60's GTO lately? If so, do you mind sharing what you paid (and for what)? Was the seller a dealer? If I offered $15,000 to $20,000 for a '67 GTO convertible that has an asking price of $35,000, would I be immediately escorted off the dealer premises by armed security personnel? ;-)

As always, am looking forward to comments from one and all.
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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I think many of these muscle car dealers do ask ridiculous prices, hoping to snag someone who doesn't know what the market it...a naive and compulsive buyer in other words. But like all pricing information, you have a bell curve of where the market really is, and then on the outside you have a few very high and a few very low sales prices.

    So even if a dealer sells an occasional overpriced GTO convertible, that doesn't set the market for then, anymore than a ridiculously low price does.

    As for making offers, I think that depends on how long the dealer has had the car. Some of thse guys are stubborn mules and will hold on to a car for 2-3 years hoping to get their price. But anyone who really has to pay the rent will deal, sure.

    It also depends very much on the quality and the authenticity of the car. Personally, people quibbling about engine numbers on mass produced cars gives me a chuckle, but I guess it means something to some people, otherwise they wouldn't be so obsessed by it. But it is irnoic that the engine number doesn't matter in $5 million dollar vintage race cars but does matter in a GM car. Weird.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Just a note on '67 Ram Airs. As I recall these are extremely rare, and they're the real McCoy: 4.33 gears, lopey idle, everything people think they want but end up hating.

    You may be thinking of (or the sellers you're talking to may be thinking of, or maybe people are just throwing around names like) the '68-up Ram Air III, which was just a '67 High Output with Ram Air. Very strong 366-hp engine (and I can tell you it put out every one of those 366 horses) but much more streetable and common than the other Ram Airs.

    The 370-hp Ram Air II (1968) and RA IV ('69-70) has the lumpy idle and you'll pay a real premium for one.

    There was also an ultra-rare Ram Air in '66 based on the Tri-Power engine.

    It would behoove you to learn the Pontiac engine ID codes so that when someone says "Ram Air" you can say "right hardware, wrong block" or something like that. There is a tremendous amount of performance history with Pontiacs in general and GTOs in particular (and a tremendous amount of BS) and the right hardware can really jack up the price. Just make sure you don't pay a premium for one of the many bogus cars out there.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    That's the downside of this matching numbers business. It encourages lots of counterfeiting, and some of the counterfeits I've seen are pretty good. You DO have to be careful. Bogus decals are now perfect, maching and restamping block numbers is getting very good...about the only thing that's still hard to duplicate is those raised casting numbers.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Today in the mail, I received my Oct/Nov/Dec 2001 CPI value guide booklet (yep, I know the data is also available online). For a 1967 GTO convertible, it shows the following values:

    Fair $11,450
    Good $17,600
    Excellent $27,275

    The RAM Air option adds another $1,750, $3,500 and $5,250 respectively.

    In CPI parlance, Excellent = #2 (condition), Good = #3 and Fair = #4

    Something tells me if I walk into a muscle car dealer showroom flashing this book, they'll just laugh and politely tell me to go pound sand.

    Anyone have any experience working with a muscle car dealer?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yes, I bought two goats from a guy who sold cars big time out of his house. I don't know how he did it (he was next to a restaurant and maybe his lot was also zoned commercial) but he later moved to a larger facility. I don't think he's still around.

    I hung around him and his friends a lot in the early days and generally made a pest of myself because he was doing what I wanted to do (and what I did on a much smaller scale later on). He was an interesting case and in fact I wrote a paper on him for a business class.

    My impression is that car nuts make lousy businesspeople and that successful dealers aren't neccesarily gearheads, but I'm probably oversimplifying. I do know that if you're just a gearhead with no real head for business, selling collectible cars can be a rugged way to make a living.

    This business won't always make sense, and why should it? The basic premise is shakey: you're dealing with people's dreams and fantasies.

    Just to complicate things, dealers can get buried in a car because of some emotional response they had to it when they first saw the car, and if they like driving it there may be no real incentive to sell at market value. And I suspect a small businessperson who's immune to the lure of collectible cars can have a temporary cash flow problem and turn into a motivated seller.

    BTW I'm not sure what CPI is referring to by "Ram Air". A '67 RA is so rare that a real one would have to be worth far more than the additional dollars you quote. I think what they're actually referring to is the HO (High Output) option with the "068" cam and hi-perf exhaust manifolds. It's one of the all-time great street engines--I had one in a '67, and had a '69 Judge with the very similar RA III.

    It also points out one real problem with valuation: these cars aren't commodities. A cookie-cutter value guide may get you close, especially with the more ordinary versions, but after that I think you need the discernment that only real knowledge gives you.

    If you get into the wild and woolly world of GTOs you need to be prepared. I'd recommend "Pontiac GTO 1964-70" by Brooklands, lots of tests. "The Big 'Little GTO' Book" by Motorbooks International is a surprisingly good history despite the title. "GTO: A Source Book" published by Bookman Dan is a collection of GTO advertising material, good for knowing which options were available in which years.

    All of these books will have minor mistakes but they're ten times better than the gee whiz coffee table books that have every musclecar able to leap tall buildings at a single bound. They're high on testosterone but low on facts.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Price Guides are only guides. You have to evaluate each car one at a time.

    If you read carefully CPIs definition of "Excellent", it becomes apparent that you could not bring a car to that state of perfection for $27,000 ("near perfect" it says").

    I appraise cars quite often, and I rarely, RARELY, see anything I'd call excellent by CPIs definition. I see nice cars but when you look closely, many many of the painful details have not been addressed. For one thing, to me a #2 with a $27K pricetag would have to be a frame-off, not a steam cleaned frame with undercoating brushed over it. And a #2 paint job would have no orange peel, runs, scratches or nicks. And the doors would fit great and the instrument bezels would not have little marks on them and the underside of the top wouldn't be sun bleached and all the windows seals would be new.

    There's an old saying that "God is in the details", and I think conditions #2 and #1 are in the details as well.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Thanks for the book recommendations. I have several Mustang and Thunderbird reference books and thus consider myself to know a thing or two about these Ford products. But I've never gotten "into" GTO's to the point where I thought it'd be worth it (ie., getting GTO books). However, I think its time to further my education on GTO's.

    When I first started looking at mid-60's cars, I didn't want to spend more than $10K. Then, I decided I wanted a convertible which threw me into another stratosphere.

    After narrowing it down to the models and quality of restoration I'd prefer (not a museum piece, but a condition/quality level that made me happy to look at and one that didn't rattle/shake itself silly), it has become painfully obvious that I have to appreciably expand my budget.

    When I'm financially able to take the plunge (unfortunately, it'll be later than sooner), I can get a classic car loan from my local credit union with a 10-year amortization, but at 10% to 12% APR. That's why its important for me to get:

    A) a car for which demand will remain strong and,
    B) a good-quality, "finished" car (one I won't have to put a bunch of money into)

    After all, ten years is a long time and market appreciation needs to exceed physical depreciation over that period. Don't know if any "affordable" classic will appreciate at 10%-12% per year, but a nicely restored example should hopefully be worth as much 5-10 years from now as it is today - assuming I wouldn't drive the wheels off of it AND assuming the economy doesn't go totally down the tubes in the interim.

    Anyone's crystal ball tell them differently? . . .
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    In a real recession, collectible car values often go down in value, but on a $5,000-6,000 car this "hit" isn't usually too much. People ditch their toys when times get tough, except for those whom recession does not touch, the ultra-rich. So a very rare Bugatti or Ferrari will keep most of its value, but a mass-produced car like a '57 chevy convertible will "rationalize" its values and could drop 30% or more, I would predict. Again, the really really rare cars won't be bothered too much because there are always more buyers than sellers. But you can count those cars on two hands in the domestic category. A collectible car will rarely if ever outperform even a conservative equity investment.

    All this presumes that you've bought a desirable car to begin with, a popular make in a coupe or convertible form. If it's a 4-door Studebaker that you paid a lot of money for, you're going to eat it in a recession.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,628
    I was curious about prices on GTOs, they seem to be all over the place. I checked autotrader.com, someone has a 67 convertible, burgandy/white interior, Rally IIs, redlines (didn't indicate tri-power, Ram Air or matching numbers), 'no expense spared' restoration on rust free car; loaded from the factory (air, headrests, power windows, steering, brakes), drum roll please.......$59.5k. Wow, talk about someone trying to recoup restoration costs. Most nice convertibles seem in the $25-35k range (there's an especially nice silver one for $30k).
    Along with 'counterfeiting' cars like this, how common is it to take a factory stripped car (or low option) and get NOS parts to make it a high-optioned restored car? The loaded or rare optioned cars seem to get much more $.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yeah, loading up a GTO with options is (or was) a quick way to improve its appeal. Very few buyers are looking for a stripper street racer. They want bells and whistles, and an AC unit or tilt wheel out of a LeMans will bolt right in.

    "Nice" is a relative term. The last collection of GTOs I saw was at a Good Guys car show about eight years ago. Most of the goats these guys were proudly showing ran the gamut from hacked up to clapped out. That $60k convertible may be a genuinely "no excuses" car with every detail sweated. At least I hope it is.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Some people will pay good money for a "GTO clone" (tempest upgrade) or GTO "upgrade", and really, if the options added are very desirable, I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as the car is not presented an authentic. A well-done clone or upgrade has good value and will retain that value, if well done.

    If a person has done an over the top restoration of a highly desirable car, they may get funny money for it, but still, to do a resto like that must cost $50K unless you do everything yourself and are highly skilled. Actually, in California, a very high class shop could easily run up a $100K bill to do a muscle car to perfection....way, way beyond what the factory ever dreamed off in quality.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Yeah it's not like the GTO has a heavy duty frame or reinforced rockers or anything else structural that would set it apart from a Tempest.

    Lots of GTO owners have replaced the four barrel with Tri-Power and the automatic with four speed. This makes the most sense with the early goats using the Carter AFB and two-speed automatic. The purists will give you a hard time and I bought into this myself until I ran across an ultra-purist skulking around in his back yard converting his mint '66 to a four speed.

    I have another musclecar dealer story. A guy from Chicago came out to California to buy a few cars. I sold him my '67 HO for something like $1400 so I could buy a '69 Judge for $1600. He took the HO back to Chicago and I heard he was trying to sell it for $10k. (I hope he put a better paint job on it than the Miracle job it had.)

    Before he left he "helped" someone install a Tri-Power set-up by dropping a nut down one of the carbs, so I guess he was more of the businessman type than a gearhead.

    BTW I sold the Judge a few years later and had a heck of a time unloading it for what I paid for it, even though it was documented. The problem? A column-shift automatic. This would have been in the mid-'80s.

    The guy who bought it from me tried to turn around and sell it for a quick profit and couldn't. I saw his ad in the local Trader and called him. Both of us were nuts to sell it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Yeah, an automatic GTO with a bench seat is not what most people want. The options on American muscle cars have an enormous effect on value, which is why price guides are tricky to read. Many the man went down in flames trying for a "quick profit" in a market he did not fully understand.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Well, actually it had a column shift automatic AND buckets. Column shift was standard with automatic but that Judge was the only automatic goat I've ever seen without the optional console shifter. Maybe someone forgot to check an option box?

    Also weird was the white vinyl top that really didn't fit with the street racer Judge image. Makes you wonder who ordered the car--maybe a manager who just came over from a Buick store?

    Rounding out the weirdness were the yellow-on-blue California plates. 1969-model year California cars got the last of the black plates. That means this Judge was registered very late in '69. At the time we thought maybe a dealer had kept it on the showroom floor to draw traffic through the '69 model year. Now I'm thinking my Judge was as hard to sell new as it was as a $1600 used car.

    The standard GTO can be pretty flabby but a GTO like that Judge with an optional engine and heavy-duty suspension was a real performance car. Handling was good considering the size, ride was firm but not harsh, decent braking from the front discs, quiet and refined when that's what you wanted but very quick at the strip. Mine had almost 100k miles and it would still do very low 15s in the mid 90s. And that heavy-duty Turbo 400 would bang off shifts when you opened it up but shift like a normal Turbo when you were just cruising.

    Add great styling inside and out, quality interior materials and a very rugged drivetrain and it was about as close to the complete package as anyone got in the '60s, at least in a large sedan.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I'm rather surprised this discussion hasn't received any more postings than it has. I thought the GTO (one of the most revered of all muscle cars - at least in terms of charisma) would have prompted much more discussion.

    Gee, I wonder if this lukewarm interest is having a corresponding effect on GTO values? Hope so.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    No, we just have short attention spans. Hey, what other cars are you thinking about?
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    After reading posts from this and other forums, I'd also consider a mid-60's (maybe early 60's as well?) Galaxie or Mercury convertible - which really shouldn't be too terribly surprising in that about a year ago I saw a '67 Mercury S55 (an option on a Montery) convertible in a local parade and thought that'd be a nice cruising car to have. I like this style which is likely due to the fact that we had '67 Mercury Colony Park station wagon when I was a kid.

    Furthermore, I also go back to my faithful love of Mustangs - either a '66 convertible or a '67 fastback (or a convertible). However, I've pretty much given up on trying to find a NICE GT that's affordable. I've seen a few '66 non-GT convertibles that have power brakes, power steering and pony interior that might not be too bad. I guess I could install the cosmetic options (rear valance with exhaust, fog lights, GT emblem, gas cap and stripe) just to satisfy my eye - though in the spirit of fair play I'd probably feel compelled to explain to everyone that it's not a "real GT" - a syndrome which would get old after awhile.

    After experiencing first hand how uncomfortable the seats are in a 64-65 Thunderbird, I've all but eliminated one from further consideration. I want a car that's comfortable to drive and not just pretty to look at - maybe when I make my 2nd million I'll think differently ;)
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,628
    I think a Merc convertible from the 60s would make a great cruiser. They're more rare than Fords or Chevies, but still easy to get drivetrain parts. They're also fairly inexpensive, relative to their rarity. I don't know much about their build quality, compared to GMs of the period (which seemed OK). All Mercuries of that time came with big engines, too, sort of like contemporary Pontiacs.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Just some random thoughts.

    You seem to be focusing on value and you might do well to look at off-brands like Mercury (or Buick or Olds) or at cars that don't have the eye candy people want (Mustang GT versus non-GT). That way you get more car for the buck--more stuff in better condition--and I think that's what most people really want in a Sunday cruiser. You just want to get in and drive, not spend endless hours correcting forty years of abuse. I speak from experience here ;-).

    On the other hand the same lack of demand that makes these cars "better values" also has them appreciate less and makes them harder to sell. You're concerned about appreciation and while very few cars are genuinely good investments, the off brands are an even worse investment than the popular cars.

    For example I had a '63 Olds Starfire convertible, Olds' performance fullsize car with 394/345-hp and automatic. It was in excellent condition, solid, quick, fun and loaded with options. That Starfire was easily equivilent to an Impala 409 Powerglide convertible and way more car than a 283 Impala convertible, but it probably cost half as much as the 283 and quarter what a 409 would sell for. Great value, but I had a heck of time selling it.

    I'd revisit your initial experience with the Mustang, the one you were reluctant to take much above fifty. A Mustang convertible (or any '60s convertible) is going to feel pretty loose compared to the Honda you're driving. The Mustang is nothing more than a compact Falcon in wolf's clothing. The intermediate and fullsize cars should feel more solid and refined.

    I wouldn't let seats keep me from buying a car. I'm pretty sure they can be modified for more comfort, either by an upholstery shop or with a quick fix. My lower back would go out every so often in my twenties and when that happened I couldn't sit in a car seat unless I put a rolled-up towel at the base of the seat back--instant lumbar support.

    Maybe there's a more modern seat that can be reupholstered in the Bird vinyl and won't stick out like a sore thumb. It's worth looking into.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    While there are a ton of factors to consider, unless you have a huge passion for one make or model, or love to tinker, I would put condition up near the top of the list, regardless of your other parameters (price, body style, color, features, etc.) If you fall in love with the hobby, you can get something rougher later on to work on as you gain experience. Nothing worse than having something sit in the garage, with the wife getting madder and madder!

    That being said, Chevy's, Pontiac's, and Ford's will be easier to sell than Olds or Mercury's. It seems Mercury from the 60's have not caught on to my knowledge, other than the Cougar and maybe the Marauder.

    In the end, remember it is not really a logical act to buy an older car, so find something that gives you some emotional connection. If you love Mercury or Olds, buy that. Old cars definitely feel different to drive than a new, tightly built car. I had to relearn how to start a carburated car, and remember the carb could be 35 years old!

    Dearborn Classics sells new seat upholstery for full size 59-70 Fords, I'm sure their Thunderbird catalogue has it available too. May be able to get the fabric (Vinyl) custom cut from their supplier.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    just for the heck of it I'll rate the different years.

    '64--the first and no one really seems to care. Just too boxy and not enough sold to make an impression on the kids of that day who are buying musclecars now. I drove a '64 Tri-Power 4 speed and liked it because of its sense of immediacy--it's smaller and lighter than even the '65, let alone the last GTOs.

    '65--the one everyone seems to want, the classic world-beater GTO before cars like the Chevelle SS 396 and Road Runner diverted attention. This year also has that sense of immediacy, that feeling of having way too much power and of things happening way too quickly. It did, and they could.

    '66--beautiful car, front, rear and in side view, but larger and more refined. Best sales year, around 96k sold. Last year for Tri-Power although it's been bolted onto lots of later models. I had one with the standard 389 and automatic. Not very exciting and pinged badly.

    '67--styling refinement of the '66 but with better engine (400), no Tri-Power but a very stout four barrel HO with 366 hp optional. Much better automatic, the 3 speed Turbo 400, replaces the two speed (not Powerglide). Also I think the first year for discs, taking care of the goat's biggest problem, tiny drum brakes from the Nova. I had two, one an HO four speed with quick-ratio manual steering that was the essence of GTO-ness, the other a great cruiser with the standard engine and automatic.

    The HO still had that "too much power" feeling. I remember I downshifted from third to second a little carelessly once and the torque reaction wound up the rear suspension and skipped me into the oncoming lane. That kind of power will get your attention.

    '68--the purists don't seem to like this car. Bigger yet but still has great styling. The only '68 I drove was a standard 350-hp version with Turbo that seemed more Grand Prix than musclecar. But the road tests say that with the right options it was perhaps the best all-around musclecar ever. Not the absolute best at any one thing, but very good at many things.

    '69--a lot like the '68. The Judge I had was a very quick, versatile fun car. Judge was supposed to be a response to the Road Runner budget musclecar that was stealing sales, but it somehow got turned into a more expensive GTO. Still very smart marketing, perhaps the only '68-up goat that the average musclecar fan really cares about.

    I don't know much about the '70-72 GTOs. You hardly ever saw one and by then the market had shifted to Grand Prixes and Monte Carlos. I had a '70 Le Mans with the GTO 400/335 that could only be described as "flabby". The GTO's better suspension would have helped and these probably make very nice cruisers but demand is nil.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,628
    Was the 68 actually bigger? I can't tell, and the only source I have lists weights only (67s and 68s weigh almost the same). To my eye (jaundiced), the 68 actually looks smaller, but that's probably due to styling (rounder to me looks smaller than boxy).

    Anyone know length or wheelbase on these?

    Oh yeah, lest we forget (and it's easy to) that there actually were 73 and 74 GTOs (GTO was actually an *option* of the LeMans from 72-73 and the Ventura in 74). Sales in 73 and 74 were 4806 and 7058 respectively).

    Pontiac buyers must have had quite a chore ordering a new LeMans in 1973. That year they offered Luxury LeMans, LeMans, LeMans Sport (the later two offered with GT OR GTO options) and the new Grand Am.
    I'm glad models are a bit more condensed now.

    My cousin actually has a 73 GTO with a 3-speed on the floor. Probably a rare car, though not really worth any money. That car is huge by today's standards.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Weight for the '67 hardtop coupe was 3430 pounds, for the '68 3506 pounds. Wheelbase was actually shorter in '68, 112" compared the 115". I don't know the difference in lengths but I think the '68 was significantly longer, or at least it felt that way from the driver's seat. Both are extremely nice designs but there used to be (and may still be) a sharp drop-off in value for the '68-up GTO.

    I had something like the '74 GTO. It was a '73 Ventura, which by then was Pontiac's version of the Nova, with the 350-2v, four speed, front discs, posi and handling suspension. When I bought it in '78 it was the first car I had owned that wasn't almost completely used up by the time I latched onto it. Great handling but not much power. The problem wasn't the Pontiac 350, which was a decent engine, but the 7:1 compression ratio. I could have run that engine on kerosene.
  • alanbergalanberg Member Posts: 4
    Hello Everyone: I'm not sure if this is the correct forum, but I'll give it a shot. Can anyone tell me what the correct(original) size wheels and tires should be on a 1966 LeMans Coupe? Thanks.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    7.35 or 6.95 X 14, depending on model (hardtop and convertible get the larger size) You coupe, if a Post Coupe, probably takes the smaller size.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    The original wheel size is 14x5" for the six, 14x6" for the V8. An easy way to get a wider stock-looking wheel is to find a set of '69-up Grand Prix 14x7" plain stamped-steel wheels.

    The best wheels for a '66 are the Rally I styled steel wheels but these are probably still extremely expensive. The Rally IIs are a lot cheaper and more common but they first came out in 1967 so they're not correct for a '66 if you care about such things--lots of people do and having the wrong wheels is a quick way to rub them the wrong way.

    For '66 "GTO A Source Book" also shows a "cast-iron brake drum with intergral hub", similar to the 8 lugs popular on full size Pontiacs, that never made it to production. Also shows a mag-look wheel cover that looks sharp and the full wheel disc that was a step up from the standard soup bowl hubcaps. I don't see either a spinner or a wire wheel cover, which is really unusual for that era.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I know this is like closing the barn door after the horse got loose, but I've ordered a few GTO books from Amazon.com and wanted to hear feedback from anyone familiar with them to see if they're any good.

    Here are the titles:
    1) Pontiac GTO - The Great One
    2) GTO Red Book '64-'74
    3) Illustrated GTO Buyer's Guide

    Let me know of any other books you'd recommend. Keep in mind, I'm not a GTO owner (just a wanna be owner). Books that cater to those who love detailed schematic drawings (like what parts departments used to have on microfiche) would only scare me. My objective is more general knowledge in nature, but still fairly advanced.

    Thanks to all who reply.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Check post #6 for my recommendations. I haven't read the books you ordered, but that doesn't mean they're not worth reading. As a general rule, avoid any book that uses the word "pavement-ripping" when describing a powerful car.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Guess, I should read through this GTO forum once in awhile - seeing how I'm the one who initiated it. Been so long since I read through the posts, I forgot about your #6.

    Thanks for the book recommendations. I've made a note of them and will try to track them down if the books I ordered turn out to be disappointing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    If you want to sell your GTO, you need to name a price. Nobody wants to be the "fish" you are fishing for...lol!

    Anyway, you can post your opinion as to value if you wish and we could comment; however, selling cars on Town Hall isn't allowed so I had to regrettably delete your post. It is called 'soliciting' under the Membership Agreement.

    thank you

    Mr. Shiftright
    Host
  • tmjddstmjdds Member Posts: 22
    Is there an annual "festival" or "rally" that GTO owners and sellers get together? I am interested in buying a 67 and would like to see a whole bunch of them before I do. Looking for a convertible 400 HO with 4speed and lots of options. Red or Blue. Completely restored.

    Anyone know of any other sites that have GTO message boards?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I'm sure the clubs have boards. Do a search for GTO clubs or Pontiac clubs on search engine google.com. Our Classics board is really fun but small compared to the other boards here at Edmunds.

    So go there but also come and visit us. We need more good energy for the Classics Board.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    This site should get you started nicely:


    GTO Association of America http://www.gtoaa.org/

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    This looks kind of interesting:


    http://www.pontiacenthusiast.com/

    And here's the man himself, Jim Wangers. That's Jim on the right with his trademark toupe. Looks like Jim is carrying quite a weight handicap these days. The Judge he's leaning on looks like the one I had, only this one doesn't have a white vinyl top and a dent in the fender, but it's pretty nice anyway.

    http://www.sdweb.com/musclecars/GTO6.htm

  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I've been following eBay auctions on two very similar '67 GTO (automatics and no A/C) convertibles. Both cars were being sold by a well-known dealer in Ohio. These cars appear well put together and in #2 condition. As a matter of fact, I referenced these cars in post #1 above.

    The auctions on both cars ended at $20,000 +/-. Interestingly enough, the final bid on both cars was within $200 of each other (talk about a consistent market!) and each car seemed to draw its own unique set of bidders.

    However, $20,000 did not meet the seller's minimum reserve. So, it would appear there was no sale for either car - unless some behind-the-scenes negotiations are taking place in that the auctions ended only a few hours ago.

    I visit this dealer's website regularly and he's had these cars for about 6 months. Up until a couple of weeks ago, his asking price on these cars was around $34,000. However, these prices have been reduced down to $29,900 and $32,900. Thus, his reserve was probably closer to $30,000 than it was to $20,000. I've not personally inspected these cars, though I've been tempted to make the 90 minute drive just to look them over. Too rich for my blood though :(

    Up until these cars were put on eBay, I figured if someone walked in the door with a briefcase containing $15,000 to $20,000 in cash, that you'd be able to leave with one of these cars. However, based on these recent auction results, it looks like I would've been a little "light" and would have wound up walking home instead.

    Thought I'd offer this valuation observation and, as always, would encourage others to weigh in.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well, it is US who decides the market, not the dealer who won't sell. If the cars didn't meet reserve on Ebay, my guess is that they are not priced to market value or perhaps the buyers are reluctant to pay top dollar for a #2 car (maybe $25K if it's a beauty) because they do not trust the long distance view.

    I can tell you that of all the claimed #2 cars I appraise, the vast majority are in fact #3s. And a #3 GTO convertible automatic is about a $17K car at best, so if in fact this car (on Ebay) was between a #3 and #2 (most likely the case), then the bids were absolutely spot on.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    While, I know it wasn't your intent Mr. Shiftright, I take your GTO value comments above as a compliment! In that, they support my initial gut feeling of these cars being worth $15K-$20K.

    Guess your wisdom is starting to rub off - and I am the better for it! ;-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    My intent wasn't to be complimentary or critical, just to give an idea of current market. What I was trying to say was that the bidders were not fools....WELL...buying anything that expensive on Ebay without an inspection is a bit reckless...I mean that they are not fools about values.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I didn't take my good-natured comments in post #38 seriously. Hope you didn't either. ;-)
  • cabo_mancabo_man Member Posts: 3
    Being the owner of a 67 GTO conv.I am very biased
    as to the value of MY car.I haved owned it since 1971.Refering to #36,these cars look nice in the pics (online) but guessing at the condition from a few pics is pure speculation.If you think your car is worth XX,put a few pics online and let viewers estimate its value,I think you would find
    a similar lowering of the $ value.As I have heard
    said,nothing is worth anything until it sells.The
    babyboomer who wants MY car will give me 30K IF he really wants it bad enough.Again,my bias.
    Does anyone know the location/name of the QJ carb
    shop in Pennsylvania? I believe they are QJ only.
    I read about them in Edmunds long ago but cannot locate them again (so far). Thanks.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    In order for a car to be sold, it FIRST has to be for sale. It doesn't sound like your '67 GTO is actively being marketed and thus is not really for sale in the traditional sense. Obviously, all things are for sale if someone backs up a truck full of cash to your house. But, I don't consider that a typical (or likely), market-driven sale transaction. Others have said it and I'll reiterate that buyers establish market values NOT sellers.

    As a commercial real estate appraiser, I can tell you that time is a function of value. In other words, if you put a high price tag on a car, you'll probably wait an incredibly long time (usually years) before it sells (if ever).

    A seller could respond by saying, "I don't care how long it takes, that's my asking price and I'm in no hurry to sell". That's fine, but his car IS NOT really for sale given that criteria.

    I've not seen your GTO and I'm sure it's very nice, but based on multiple, nationally recognized, classic car valuation guides, $30,000 sounds rather high, unless its the nicest '67 GTO convertible on the planet. If so, then $30K is probably about right. On the other hand, the number of buyers are VERY FEW who want (or can afford) to have the absolutely best car. So, trying to find the guy who'll pay that price may be like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. It's there, but how long will it take to find him (and for him to find you) is the real issue.

    There's also the issue of an over-improved car and perhaps an analogy can be drawn from buying a house. Let's a say there's one vacant lot in an established residential neighborhood where the homes sell between $125,000 and $200,000 - without exception. Then, suppose someone buys that vacant lot and constructs a home that costs him $400,000 to build (including his land cost). Then, the day it's finished, he put's a "for sale" sign in the front yard. Now, what's that house worth? Not, $400,000, I guarantee you that. Did this guy make an over-improvement? You bet. Most buyers may be willing to pay somewhat of a premium for this house, but not much. So, the seller is going to take a major hit in order to sell it - unless he waits several years for the market to catch up to his asking price. Same thing with classic cars. There's only a handful of buyers who are willing to pay for the very best.

    Now, some could argue that houses are more of a commodity item whereas classic cars are less plentiful and that's true to some degree. But, spend an afternoon surfing the net and you'll find dozens of '67 GTO convertibles listed for sale. Some good, some bad. But, they all give buyers a variety of buying opportunities to pursue if they so choose. Plus, as a seller of a classic car, you're competing with cars that provide everyday transportation, because let's face it, a '67 GTO is a "want", not a "need". Believe me I know, because I REALLY want one. But, I don't need one as a course of normal, everyday life.

    A seller who takes 5 years to sell his car for a high price will undoubtedly gloat by saying "See, I told you my car was worth $xxx!" I'd respond by saying, "Yeah, it is now." In other words, high priced cars have to wait for the market to catch up and that could take several years based on a variety of economic factors.

    Take my views for what they're worth. It's just that when I hear a seller saying a buyer will HAVE TO pay top dollar for my car, then I really have to question whether that car is actually for sale or if the seller is looking to fund his 401K (there's a big difference between the two). Remember, a car is always worth more to the seller than it is the buyer.

    Anyway, that's my two cents ;-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    The market is dictated by the bulk of verified sales, not by a few very high or very low ones. So even if one could point to a very high selling price, this does not by itself establish a new level for the car.

    Since GTOs are bought and sold in large numbers, the market as reflected by most decent price guides is pretty accurate I think. Of course, if the car is a show car and an impeccable, cost no object accurate restoration, the price guides go out the window. But this level of perfecton is so rare that you only see such a car occasionally at a national show, and a show car of this quality would never, ever be driven beyond the trailer and back.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Anyone have any experience using the Hurst Dual-Gate shifters (commonly referred to as his/her shifters) in automatic '67 to '69 GTO's?

    How well do they work and how durable are they?

    Finally, does manually shifting have any detrimental effects on the transmission's longevity?

    Surely, there's gotta be a bunch of folks out there who've used these shifters. Let's hear from one and all!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,645
    ...well, I'll confess to having done it before, and while I know it can't exactly be good for the car, I haven't destroyed a transmission yet by doing it!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I don't really know but I doubt that manually shifting a Turbo 400 is going to shorten its life. They'll last well over 100k even with routine abuse. All you're doing by shifting manually is raising the shift point from say 4400 rpm to maybe 4800. By that time the engine sounds like it's going to grenade (it's not) and most people nudge the selector.

    I never had a his and hers. The Judge had a column shift and the few times I drag raced it I just let it do its thing. Just point and shoot, as they say. It shifted at 5000 rpm, a few hundred over its horsepower peak, and that worked just fine.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,645
    ...I used to do it with my Darts, and I'm guessing that it really didn't do much harm to those old Torqueflites, either. Now Grandma's '85 LeSabre, on the other hand ;-) Well, it does have about 155K on it, and never even a hint of tranny trouble, so maybe it's tough enough, too...
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    I've been casually watching the bidding on what appears to be a nice '67 GTO convertible (red, automatic w/out A/C) listed on eBay by the same dealership I've eluded to before. This is a different (probably better) GTO than the two that didn't sell when the high bid of $20K +/- was rejected by the seller. A link to this current auction is provided below.


    The bidding has been stalled at $25,100 for a few days and there's a couple more days left.


    Any bets as to how high the bidding will go and whether or not the reserve will be met? $25,100 is probably pretty close to the market ceiling which I'm guessing is around $27K.


    I'll post the results when the auction has ended. Unfortunately, I'm relegated to a side line observer and not one of the "players" involved. :-(


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=601621822&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1013112079&indexURL=0&rd=1

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    That car looks pretty dang nice. Just a few comments. That black interior will fry you on a hot day. Rally I wheels are a rare sight on a '67, correct but rare. Most '67s have the Rally IIs if they have Rallys. They're nice but were used for years and really common.

    Shifty, a guy at my office is seriously looking for a musclecar convertible. I've told him he should have someone like a car appraiser go with him. Could you do that or do you know someone?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,628
    I've always liked them better than Rally IIs, perhaps cuz you don't see them all the time. Rally IIs, unfortunately, were thrown on just about every Pontiac (optionally or otherwise) from their '67 introduction til the early 80s.

    My dream GTO would be a 66 or 67 convertible, gold with gold interior and Rally I's. Oh yeah, with power windows, tilt and a 4 speed.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Rally Is were available through 1968. I don't think I've ever seen them on a '68 except in the Pontiac sales brochure, which tells me they were old fashioned by then. The IIs looked like the typical "mag" wheel of the time, hence their appeal. The Is are cleaner and would probably look good on a '68 but they're so strongly identified with the '65 and '66 that no one would believe they were correct.

    More than you ever wanted to know about a wheel.
This discussion has been closed.