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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI



  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Must have been a typo.

    That was electra_rising. Here's the post.
    electra_rising Dec 2, 2002 5:09pm

    I quoted him. But no quotation marks. My bad.
  • It's been a while since I have checked in here on this site. What happened to the main topic of this discussion? Isn't this supposed to be about GTI's and the new Civic Si? Where did M-B, WRX's, Maximas and all this other stuff come from? Seems to me from the recent posts and the majority of many others VW's reliability pales when compared to cars costing more. I've seen very few comparisons from people comparing VW's to other cars of similar price, they generally compare them to cars costing thousands more. When compared to similarly-priced vehicles, the VW's offer more features, better safety and average to above average reliability. Plus, as was mentioned on this thread a while back, Volkswagen has the highest resale value in the non-luxury class of vehicles. How can a car with questionable reliability still have high resale values? That doesn't add up. High resale values reflect high quality vehicles. Sure there are some exceptions, every manufacturer builds lemons, but they are rare. Reliability problems will cause lower sales which will cause less demand for a particular vehicle or make which in turn will affect the resale value of said vehicle or make. Obviously this is not VW's problem, they are experiencing record growth and high resale values, so where does reliability fit into this?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Compared to the SI or any Honda except the passport. There is no mainstream publication or source that would place the VW reliability above Hondas. And as far as resale you've got to be kidding. But no point going over that again. Honda sells over a 350,000 Civics a year whereas Volkswagen can't sell that many anything. 100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si.

    Not to mention the Golf has been riding on the same twist beam rear suspension since it was a Rabbit.

    But maybe that post was just trying to get something started...Nevermind.
  • Mentioned here a while back and still available to beread on Edmunds site, there is a story from ALG(Automotive Leasing Guide) regarding residual value and resale values. ALG takes into account all aspects of car ownership in figuring out what the car will actually cost you in the course of years. They come up with what they call a TCO(True Cost of Ownership) which calculates what a car will cost you to own per year including repairs, depreciation et al. From these findings they concluded that Volkswagen ended up on top. Here's a direct quote from the story,

    "According to the ALG, its Residual Value Awards honor "those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price." In other words, these are the cars that will be worth the most in three or four years, when most leases will end. In addition to naming specific cars for awards, ALG also gave awards to two manufacturers. Volkswagen of America won the "Industry Brand Residual Value Award" and Mercedes-Benz USA won the "Luxury Brand Residual Value Award."" Link to the whole story here

    Plus, VW commercials of late have also begun to claim the highest resale values in their classes, are you suggesting that VW is advertising falsely?

    Again, since that study includes repairs as well as depriciation, shouldn't VW have scored much lower since their vehicles are horribly unreliable? Show me number to the contrary. Find some info which shows VW's resale values to be much lower than other similar cars.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Benzes aren't known for relibility either. Durability yes, reliablilty no. They have thier issues.
    When looking at pure reliability surveys the Civic will come out on top. There is no extrapolating from vague awards necessary for that. It's in black and white in any pure reliablity study you consult.

    And as far as resale..I just showed you one. Since this is the GTI vs Civic forum I'm sure this has been hashed out before. Just read back.
  • Quote - "100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si." - End Quote

    So now you want to compare old vehicles, not the new ones. OK I can play that game. Go check the classifieds for an old air-cooled VW. Old Beetles and Ghias cost more to buy used now than they did when they were new, granted inflation have a part in that, but nonetheless cars hit a level where their depriciation levels off after a number of years. You compared a few cars now I'll do the same.
    On the Kelley Blue Book site a 2000 Civic Si with 50K miles and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition comes up at $12,905. selecting a 2000 GTI Turbo GLS with 50K miles as well and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition gets a value of $14,340. Even adding the options to make the Si equivilent the value went up to only $13,215 still over $1,000 lower than the GTI. And a VR6 model goes over $15,000. So all those people out there paying over $15,000 for a used Civic Si are all getting hosed. Seems they are all just brainwashed into believing that VTEC is a godsend and their Si is actually worth more than $15,000, kinda funny actually. I may start investing in Si's. I'll buy them for what they are actually worth and turn around to sell them to the highest bidder, hell if I can make a few thousand on each car, why not.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Average miles for a car is 10,000 to 12,000. I'm sure your vaunted residual awards aren't figured on 25,000 miles per year.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    The 1999 Civic SI retailed for $17,494 new in 1999 according to November 2000 R@T summary.
    According to KBB 30141 area code retail at 45,000 miles is $14,910. $2600 loss in three years and 45,000 miles. That's awesome value retention.
  • You have ALG .. I have Intellichoice. If you look at the total 5 year ownership costs the Jetta is rated better than average and the Civic is rated excellent. Over the 5 years the Jetta GL is $1700 below average while the Civic LX is $4700 below average. This factors in depreciation, maintenance, repairs, insurance, etc. It's notable that the Civic was the best overall value of the year in it's class.

    If you look at ALG it did award VW the overall award but Honda held 3 top spots and the whole site seemed to say Japanese/European good .. domestic bad. It never said VW has a huge advantage over Honda and in almost every breath that VW was mentioned in so was Honda.

    People who are paying $15,000 for an SI aren't being hosed if they can drive it for a year and then sell it for $14,000. If you look up 93-95 SI's in good condition they are still going for a pretty penny private owner .. if you can find one. Same with 91-93 GS-R's. The SI will remain in high demand because of it's easy nature to mod and it's reliability.

    A 2000 SI retailed for $17,500. A 2000 GTI 1.8T retailed for $19,995. Difference of $2500. So if the GTI is only worth $1000 more the SI has made up $1500 and lost a lower percentage of it's value.
  • And here we go again with the talk of previous Si resale values. The '99-'00 Si was a desirable car. It went for over-sticker new, as I recall. The resale of the unwanted '02-'03 Si is not going to fare quite as well. If it has to be given away to sell it new, you'll have to give it away to sell it used.

    Now, a thought that a concensus could possibly be reached on... Si= better buying car, GTI= better leasing car? Not that there aren't great leasing deals out there on the Si...there's a very enticing $199/month $0 down 48 month lease available on leftover '02s (locally at least). I'm just throwing the thought out there.

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    I drive 25,000 miles a fact I drive closer to 40K per year.

    And a 2000 model car could quite easily be (and probably is) 3 years old.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    When you look at lease values there are very few that are calculated on 25,000 miles a year.

    "* How many miles has the vehicle been driven (the average is about 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year)?"

    The most mileage I have seen on a lease special is 15,000 miles per year. But of course this IS Edmunds where people can't understand the difference between a feature and a glitch even though every Honda behaves the same.

    I guess it's a glitch Hondas require Honda specific power steering fluid. Or that all Hondas before this engine series ran in the reverse direction than most other cars. Or that Honda CD players don't display the time on the CD's. Nope not glitches. Just the way they designed em. Don't like it, don't buy it.

    Every thing is based on averages. I know there are people that drive 100,000 mile in a year. But they aren't the average.

    So you are right there is no point to debate anything with a bot. Mainly because the bot will only use facts and not personal anecdotes that can't stand up to logic.

    Even a saleswoman??? and a driver of a 1994 Lexus can use facts to debunk someone who says a GTI is reliable? Compared to a Honda? Get real.

  • gotenks: I will go along with the SI being a better car to buy and the GTI being a better car to lease. Your VW will spend so much time in the shop that you will have no problem keeping the miles down if nothing else :)

    Man there's a lotta red on that VW part of the link above ........
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    just as valid as this one



    or check any other reliability survey.

    You buy a VW you take your chances.

    Si's have ABS,and EBD, side airbags are available if you want em(the only option), cruise, keyless, and 5 star safety front and 4 star side without side airbags. So much for tin can.

    How is the GTI a stellar success if VW can't sell more cars than Hyundai anymore? They sell more Civics than they sell VW's as a whole.

    Like I said in another forum. Anecdotes mean nothing when they aren't based on fact. I can show proof that VW's are NOT reliable, the SI is not a "tin can", the SI has reasonable content at it's price point especially since it has only one option, there is a significant number of horror stories littering the web about VW's in general, in fact the Beetle is a used car "to avoid" according to CR, and the link above shows VW's reliability as lacking compared to most.

    Here's another link from the site...

    Direct comparison to Honda. Of course the latest data is 1998 but I doubt the such a large divide will be made up that quickly.

    Thank god for simple basic cars that seem to have just as many features as the awesome great VW's. I think I would rather turn on my own windshield wipers and adjust my own heat.

  • You Honduh guys crack me up - This could go on forever - you keep believing your fantasy about VW's - and I'll keep enjoying my dependable VW's this from an actual VW owner. Most all the negative stuff I read here on VW's is from non VW owners - your envy is showing.

    wow - you can get side airbags as an option on the tin can civic and honda's top line EX V6 has curtain air bags "available" a $15k GL Golf has them all standard - along with ABS, traction control etc, etc all standard and VW doesn't have to give them away at fire sale prices or make cutting edge safety items "available as the only option" - LOL - path-et-ic

    FYI - as for your resale blah, blah, blah eariler:
    "Volkswagen was ranked #1 among mass-market manufacturers for best residual value in the Automotive Lease Guide's 2002 Residual Value Awards." Do you think it's because they don't have to sell them for below invoice to move them off the lots like the ugly tin can SI's??? Or subsidize leases like Accords?

    The GTI sells on it's merits - the SI (and most other Honduh's) sells because it's so heavily discounted - resale on an SI will be a joke.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868

    Standard side airbags. Standard curtain airbags.

    Standard full size spare tire.

    Standard floor mats.

    Standard ASR and optional ESP.

    4 yr. 50,000 mile b2b warranty.

    Heated mirrors standard.

    16" wheels standard with 17" optional.

    Heated seats optional.

    Standard stereo that is much better than the Si's.

    CD player and cassette player standard.

    Armrest standard.

    Cargo hooks in the hatch area. (nice to have)

    Full carpet in hatch area instead of plastic on the sides like the Si.

    Gas struts on the hood instead of a cheap prop rod.

    Storage areas for first aid kit and 6 disc cd changer.

    Wide selection of aftermarket parts and accessories available directly from VW.

    1.8T is a Wards 10 best engine.

    There are so many extra items that make the GTI stand out in a comparision to the Si. When you own a VW you take for granted these features.

    Unfortunately, the VW dealer network is TERRIBLE. Quality of materials is excellent but the reliability of components is below average.

    My personal experience owning a VW Golf and VW Jetta was excellent as far as relibility. But the poor dealership service and the maintenance requirements made me so disgusted that I am now driving an Si.

    If the GTI were the same price as an Si I would put up with the VW aggravations and would have kept my Golf. VW needs to fix their dealer network ASAP.
  • 204meca204meca Posts: 370
    that are standard on the GTI:

    Auto down & UP both windows.
    5 yr 60K warranty (may be only as good as dealer).
    16" wheels, though most GTIs seem to have 17"
    Telescopic steering wheel.
    Both front seats can easily be raised or lowered.
    LARGE, illuminated in glove box.
    ALL switches are illuminated.
    Remote release of the hatch.
    Easy rear seat entry system for both front seats, with memory.
    Illuminated vanity mirrors.
    Lights in the rear seat passenger compartment.
    Auto door locking @ 8 mpg (not everyone likes this
    Heated seats as option (seems to be on all GTIs).
    Adjustable headrests including articulation headrests (the Sis are NOT at allcomfy).
    Lower insurance rates according to AllState
    Better EPA highway mileage @ 31 v 30 (many GTI owners report 35 mpg highway).

    Sadly, the Si is a stripper in comparison? What can't Honda give us a few simple more simple creature comforts like armrests & seat heigh adjustment (both were on the 00 EX)? No wonder I am leaning toward the GTI despite having owned 5 great Honda civics since 1985.
  • 204meca204meca Posts: 370
    why I can find 3 used 02 GTIs for sale in my small city & 6 more within 100 miles in the Atotrader, but no 02 Si anywhere? This is especially unnerving if it is true that there are fewer 2002 GTI were made. That said, there may be no used Si because many of them have not left the dealer's lots yet.

    I love the performance & features of the GTI, but a few facts like the above still make me nervous. If I finally actually get up enough courage to purhase a GTI I hope & pray that it is as reliable as yours has been (so far)!
  • "why I can find 3 used 02 GTIs for sale in my small city & 6 more within 100 miles in the Atotrader, but no 02 Si anywhere? "

    One important thing to keep in mind is that '02 GTIs have been on sale since last September at the normal model-year changeover, whereas '02 SIs didn't get to dealers until March '02-ish. Basically, the GTI has been out longer, and the propensity to sell increases as time goes on, not to mention there's more out there (should be anyway). I remember earlier this year hearing of people selling their early '02 GTIs in favor of the 337, new MINIs, and the like. There's quite a few people still trying to sell used 337s for over the original sticker too. People will always find a reason to sell anything, it's nothing to get unnerved about.

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote gee -Wheres's VW? Oh yeah at the bottom.

    You stated the list was in alphabetical order, so yes VW is going to be at the bottom.

    Your post indicates that number of vehicles sold is more important than the vehicle.

    In 2001 Volkswagen delivered a total of 865,500 Golf vehicles to its customers.

    On June 25th 2002 the 21,517,415th Golf was manufactured. Thats right, 21 million.

    In the US in November of 2002 VW sold about 30,000 cars and Honda sold 100,000.

    Since Honda sells 3 times as many vehicles does this mean they are better. If so then that must mean GM is the best because they sold 300,000 plus in November.

    Is the number of problems per 100 vehicles the most important factor in vehicle purchasing?

    Must not be since VW is experiencing record sales month after month and year after year in the US.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868

    Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout.

    2001 Sporty Segment- winner is VW GTI

    quote- Volkswagen models continue to do well in the study, with the Beetle setting the APEAL standard for compact cars every year since its introduction in 1998. The Jetta ranks highest for the third year in a row in the entry midsize car segment, and the GTI ranks most appealing in the sporty car segment.

    2001 winners in compact segment were VW Beetle and VW Golf.

    In midsize VW Jetta

    VW's are recognized for design and execution as well as being recognized for being below average in quality.

    Where is Honda in this list? Only the Odyssey is present.

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Didn't give not one bit of relavant information.
    The 2001 information you quoted is not U.S. information since VW only sold 400,000 or so total units last year here acording to my link including numbers with Audi. Who is the one with the false information?

    You are right VW is at the bottom since it begins with V. But it is at least number 23. Is that much better? I wouldn't have mentioned that.

    The nameplate Golf has been around since the Rabbit. Until this year it was the best selling car in Europe. Peugeot took care of that though. Our Rabbit was called the Golf in Europe. In fact the Golf still has the rear twist beam suspension used in the Golf/Rabbit from the 70's.

    GM sold that many total cars but they also comprise how many marques? At least 6.

    Yes Honda IS better in the U.S. than VW.

    Honda is also experiencing record sales. In fact if you would read the chart again it would show you Honda is UP 3% while VW is DOWN about the same amount. Considering the percentages though 3% of Honda's figure is much more impressive.

    Like I said in my last post... I would leave this one alone.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    Edmunds shows $0.35 mile for Si and $0.39 for GTI.

    Is all the extra equipment that is standard on the GTI worth $600 a year?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I think Daewoo also won one of those. Great company to be in there.

    VW is also present on another study...
    Consumer Reports 2003 Buyers Guide
    Worst Used Cars: Volkswagen New Beetle
    Used cars to Avoid:Jetta 4 cylinder 99-00
    New Beetle 98-00
    Passatt 98

    Notice Honda's dealerships near the top.
    Honda's dependability near the top of any survey.
    Especially JD Power long term survy.

    Even if the equipment were worth it. The peace of mind you get with Hondas outweighs heated mirrors. Available in Canadian SiR's.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    If CR told you to buy a Yugo would you buy one? The information you posted was as relevant as the information I posted. MyVWLemon WAHHH..LOL I can post links to some really mad Odysey owners also.

    How about explaining what CR or JD Power reliability ratings mean real world. For example if the Si was rated at 100 problems per 100 vehicles and GTI at 200 then one more problem would be experienced. The rating would be twice as bad for one problem. Big deal!

    GTI does offer more content than Si. It is more expensive though.

    The only thing you want to discuss is reliability. The fact is that Honda is better. Instead of discusing content or perhaps the views of automotive press the only other thing you want to harp on is sales numbers. Who cares? If I am driving a Si or GTI I care I about enjoyment of the car not if 10 other people bought the same model.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Hypotheticals in a debate. How grade school.

    First year Odysseys had issues. VW {insert model here} has issues even though the car is several years old. The Beetle is a nightmare.

    In the real world a car that has very few complaints and a history of steller performance shows that the cars with several complaints and a trail on online horror stories should be avoided. With VW products you don't have only one source that says not to buy one, there are several.

    Let's say one of the Golf "features" was a gold dispenser, it would do you no good if it didn't work when you needed it.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    Since GTI and Golf are nearly the same.

    I owned a 2001 Golf for two years. During the time I had to make two unscheduled trips to dealer for problems. The problem was broken window regulators. The window regulators were redesigned for 2003 and are being replaced free of charge by VW on all affected models that are prior to 2003. So two times in two years.

    For my 2002 Si I have 2,000 miles on it. As of next week it will have required two visits to the dealer for problems. Twice in two months.

    My personal experience so far is nothing to impress with Honda.

    The VW dealer is a real pain in the butt though. Honda dealer is very pleasant.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    I've shared my personal experience with both current Si and curren model Golf/GTI platform. You asked for real world and not hypothetical and now it is posted. Can you share real world experience? Or is it all hypothetical and just what you have read here and there?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I'm sure the average SI owner is a much happier puppy than the average GTI one. Just as with the A/C "glitch" there will be issues that some people need addressed. Especially with the SI since many of them sat for months without being sold. I'm thinking of getting a Honda Accord EX-L stick. The one I want hasn't even been built yet. I'm gonna meet the truck at the dealer. Our current Si was months old when we bought it. Although ours was perfect (both of them) I'm sure there are some which need adjustment.

    But check the VW complaint boards. Those are problems. When you factor in that they sell far fewer VW's than Hondas you have to worry about your chances of getting a good one.

    Anony is my fiance. We have had 2 2000 Si's and 2 2002 Si's. My 2000 runs great at 36K. And her first one was totalled. No return trips to the dealer for neither.
  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    but let's keep it civil. A few posts have been deleted here in the last day, because they were not within our Town Hall guidelines.

    To clarify: It's okay to criticize a vehicle or an idea, but we draw the line when it comes to bashing people/participants that don't share the same opinion... or drive the same make as you. Let's start over now on a friendlier note. Thanks!


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