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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI
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Comments
No creaks, squeaks, or wheel shimmy here- solid as a rock.
I wonder how many people actually cross shop the SI and the GTI - judging by this forum group I doubt many do.
The SI crowd is more about price and statistics - plus they put the blinders on in regards to any flaws - it's perfect by golly because I say it is - squeaks, creaks, rattles and shaking be damned - just turn up the radio and hold the wheel tighter-no problemo here LOL. They even lambast their own to keep them in line - don't bring up any flaws fellow SI owners or you'll get blasted here.
That is very telling - is it possible they don't report all their "issues" at survey time? - just an observation - The SI really is good value for the money - but you do appear to get what you pay for - basic transport at a reasonable price (as long as the dealers continue to give them away) nothing wrong with that.
The GTI crowd on the other hand like all the features and premium quality materials with thoughtful design in a well built Euro themed package - and are willing to pay a little more for it. Survey's be damned we drive what we like. We do seem to acknowledge that nothing is perfect and report it honestly in survey's rather than put the blinders on....
Not true. Last I heard about 1 of 7, or about 14% cars sold in the US had manual transmissions.
I have also heard that VW, BMW,Honda are near the top in manaul equipped cars, each having 25% or more of their cars equipped this way.
I would love to have stayed with the A4 but I gave it up after 2 years and bought myself an Si as a beater. The GTi would not have been a beater to me since it would have cost more than what the Si cost me. And I would have to deal with the same dealership since they do sell VW and Audis as well. The 3 things I missed most in my A4 are: AWD, HID and auto dimming mirrors.
I've been told that ALL Honda manual cars make this sound. Strange since my friend who has Integras and Preludes do not know of this sound when I described to him. I guess if you are so used to the sound, it becomes second nature. I was genuinely shocked initially when I heard it. Like I said, a colleague of mine went out for lunch in my car and when I reversed, she said what's that sound? Is something wrong? So, for those of us who are not familiar w/ Honda trans. it is shocking.
I looked at my tires during lunch and I didn't see any markings on them indicating they are Pilots or Energys. All I see are the MXV4 markings. Maybe that explains why I'm complaining about my tires performance. Either that or I'm used to driving with summer tires (Dunlop SP8000)
The problem is when I pull up a picture of the car on these site. The have several colors including white, black, yellow(eck!), and maybe one other, but none of the look right.
The cars in these photos really look like 7/10 scale minivans as the sloping hood has almost the same angle as the windshield as in a real minivan. The sides of the car have no visual distinction, much less sport aspirations. There is a simple fix for this however, and that is for Honda to:
1.) offer some kind of optional body kit to spruce things up. In the UK the SIRs have a more aggresive look, http://www.honda.co.uk/new.html
2.) Make larger wheels optional for G-d's sake!
When you have 15 inchers on this thing it really does preserve the proportions of a minivan, hence if you are looking at a photo w/o reference to scale it really does look like one.
The Mini, which cost about the same as an SI has 3 wheel sizes from which to choose.
How hard is it for dealers to keep extra tires/wheels on hand in different sizes and then take the extra 10 minutes to change them out at time of sale?
I thinks maybe is has something to do with demand of Hondas in the past and their reputations as "order takers."
But I think Honda would rather keep things "SIMPLE" for themselves and their customers. Too bad that's not a good reflection on their customer base which I infer would rather not have many choices when it comes to their autos.
I agree with you on the rims and body kit. But then, I can count 2 people who would disagree.
Hondas is the "we make it simple' company. DX/LX/EX what kinda car you want?
Ok then on to option 2 - just give the customer the right wheels standard and adjust the MSRP accordingly. Doesn't the base RSX come w/ 16 inchers standard - probably for a good reason.
Options 3 - Manufacturer should test ride all wheel/tire combinations before putting car up for sale. Funny that doesn't sound like a BMW-type mistake as they are the kings of the small wheel/arch gaps.
Why is the RSX/Celica/Cougar/Tiburon called hatchback as well when none of them look anything like the Si/GTi??
Is there a fine line bet. the wagons of Audi (avants)/BMW/Mercedes/Volvos compared to say the 5 door Golf/Focus ZX5? Why are the latter referred to as hatchbacks and not wagons?
Ok then on to option 2 - just give the customer the right wheels standard and adjust the MSRP accordingly. Doesn't the base RSX come w/ 16 inchers standard - probably for a good reason.
Options 3 - Manufacturer should test ride all wheel/tire combinations before putting car up for sale. Funny that doesn't sound like a BMW-type mistake as they are the kings of the small wheel/arch gaps.
Why should Honda put bigger wheels (which some still might complain about because they don't like the design) and charge extra when the owner can just go buy some 17 or even 18" wheels if they choose to. Then the stock 15" tires could be used as winter tires. It's not that big of a deal.
On the other hand with a GTI for $700 I can have a matched Eibach suspension package put on that will put my car way ahead of the SI in the handling department, whilst preserving the GTI's superior ride characteristics and make the car look better via a 1-1.5" drop.
Again Honda doesn't have to put them on automatically it would be an OPTION.
If Honda was really interested in saving their customers money, since they will be upgrading later anyway, they would have put on 15" steel wheels like they do on other civic models.
Also half the country doesn't really car about getting winter tires.
How many 99-00 SI's do you see with their stock rims on? Even with the few 02 SI's that have been sold alot of them already have aftermarket wheels.
And it's all really irrelevant when according to your trusty Road & Track the SI with 15" wheels out-slaloms the GTI GLX 64.1 MPH to 58.8 MPH. The GTI is in way more need of springs than the SI is of 17" wheels. Wheels can't overcome an inferior suspension. The rear beam suspension of the GTI is what most would call inferior.
When the same people who did that bumper test give the Mini a Good rating and a Best Pick, I would not worry about it. An attentive driver with a nimble Mini won't have to worry about hitting their front end into a barrier at an angle anyway.
Mike
I'd hate to see the insurance rates for the Mini now that the test is out there showing frame damage. Any frame damage, however slight, is going to slaughter the value of the car if they are trying to sell it to someone who has it properly checked out.
And Motor Trend in the 4/2002 issue had a top slalom speed of 63.0 for the SI and 65.6 for the GTI. In their What's Not(hot) category they cited "Rear-suspension woes" as one of the three items explaining further in the article that the new SLA rear suspension sans trailing arms was the culprit.
So why don't we call it a draw?
http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2002/pr120302.htm
"There was excessive damage in the front-into-flat-barrier impact (more than $800 in repairs), and the Mini Cooper sustained about $1,500 damage in the angle-barrier test. "These are disappointing test results, but they're not surprising because the bumper systems on BMWs generally don't do a very good job of resisting damage in low-speed impacts," Lund also says."
Included frame damage according to the Dateline telecast.
What I'm saying is for the $19k MSRP, it should come standard w/ 17" as the competitors are giving. Maybe 16". Definitely not 15". Come on. Get real.
People who wants rims will always get new rims. For someone like me, and I'm sure there are more who share the same view as me, if the car already comes w/ 17" rims, then I do not need to spend $1600 getting the SSR GT1 rims you mentioned.
GTI with optional 17" rims and tires for about $450
or
GTI with the standard 16" rims and tires and then goes out and buys a set of 17" rims and tires? (or any other car for that matter)
I'm personally doing the latter because the stock 15" rims on the Golf will be dedicated for snows, and the 17" rims to be purchased later is for the spring/summer.
Though for the Golf/GTI a aftermarket 16" rim and tire combo is generally cheaper than the aftermarket 17" rim and tire combo.
It it comes w/ summer times, I'll buy a set of 17" snow tires and swap the tires.
OR
I'll buy 15" steelies w/ snow tires. 17" snows or 15" steelies w/ snows cost about the same ($500).
If it came w/ 16" rims, I'll be using the set of Michelin Pilot Alpins I've lying around from my now sold A4.
But in all seriousness, no matter if it comes with 15, 16 or 17, there will be people who will still change the tires and rims. You brought up snow tires. What about people who live in moderate snow areas or no snow at all? If I can pay $500 to upgrade to 17" from 15", I would have done it and be happy with what 17" Honda is giving me.
I bought my 01 A4 in 2000. I upgraded to the sports package getting 16" rims with summer tires. I was planning on buying new rims, new tires etc. but in the end, I did not want to spend the money. I ended up buying snow tires and swapping them out every season.
So, it all depends on the individual. If you are happy with the 15" rims, that's ok. If you want to use that as your winter tires, that's fine to.
What we are saying is, Honda should have at least provide us with an option to upgrade to 17". For another $500 or so, it's much cheaper than to buy a whole new set. How much can you get for OEM 15" anyway? You can argue I can use the 15" for snow tires. I could but there are others who do not need snow tires. So, Honda is kinda in a loose loose situation since the Si is not comparable to a sporty entry level sedan where summer tires are a given these days. The best bet for them would be to offer 17" as options if they do not want to include them as stock. That way I can upgrade for a mere $500 rather than shelling out over $1500.
Or better yet. I upgrade to 17" for say $500 from Honda and I'll buy a set of OEM 15" from someone who upgraded from 15" to aftermarket wheels. OEM takeoffs shouldn't cost me more than $400 coz' who wants OEM 15" anyway?? Honda might charge $250 or so new for them but who would pay more than a $100 each.
Honda's scheme of things is offer the model-lines, and essentially no options (okay, I've seen Accord EX-L, EX trim with leather...previously), only dealer install accessories. This reduces the cost to the manufacturer, and to the consumer.
Average damage to a HONDA Civic (4 tests) $427
Average damage to a VW Golf/Jetta (4 tests) $277
Average damage to a VW New Beetle (4 tests) $52
The New Beetle is built on the same platform as the Golf/ Jetta buy the way - that's not a typo - $52
Plus the Honda Civic just made the most stolen list for the umteenth time - that's quite an accomplishment as well - congratulations - what are your insurance rates like?
Although I'm sure the new SI will cure the theft issue in future years - since the Honda dealers have to give them away -
I know - maybe the Honda dealers should just leave the keys in the SI's at night with a big STEAL ME sign on the windshield - LOL - Naw, I doubt that would work to deplete their inventories of moldy 02 SI's
The New Beetle has the worst quality reputation than any other recent VW and that's saying something. So getting it up to speed to bump anything would be an accomplishment.
The car handles equal to or better than cars that come equipped with 17's. So they are not necessary for the intended purpose of the car. Honda put that money in other areas of the car. If you want 17's you can go out and buy them. Just as if you want lowering springs, a Turbo, new exhaust, tint, Recaro seat, a 500 watt sub or whatever. But the basic car works just fine out of the factory.
Not on floor mats (optional on Si, standard on GTI). Not on side airbags (standard on GTI, optional on Si) Not on curtain airbags.(standard on GTI, not available on Si) Not on a telescoping steering column (standard on GTI, not available on Si) Not on heated seats. Not on heated mirrors. Not on HP.(Si has 20 HP less than GTI)
Where 0 where was this extra money spent? Not on reliability in my experience. Si has as many problems as my VW's ever did. Now my radio is intermittently refusing to work on my Si and the wheel shimmy and shake is getting worse. Off to the Honda repair shop I go tomorrow.
Most of us other SI owners will see where the money was spent in not having the problems Mopar is. And at 100,000 miles we will still have an essentially new car that will be just coming up on its first tuneup.
And in addition to to everything else we got with our SI we got the coolest thing of all when it comes to this room. We get to talk about the GTI which has a 1980 era suspension design, reliablity like a broken glass, poor economy, and a sucky gearbox. Thank you Honda.
On a different note, I saw the coolest GTI last night. It was black, had the Neuspeed suspension, HIDS, 18's, tint, exhaust. SWEET!!!
On a different note, I saw the coolest GTI last night. It was black, had the Neuspeed suspension, HIDS, 18's, tint, exhaust. SWEET!!!
gee35coupe - But you forgot to throw in your usual VW remark: "But it's a VW. Gonna be problem plague and reliability down the pits. Not going to stand up to 50,000 miles when my Si will still be running lke a sewing machine. Smoooooth as glass"
No matter how nice or dressed up the GTI, it'll still end up in the junkyard or fall apart as time pass. Maybe not past 50k warranty I suspect. And while it's new, aren't you afraid to be left stranded in the cold wintery months w/ one nice lowered black 18" HID fart pipe of a car you call the GTI??
And it can't be more expensive that your factory ordered 5 speed Accord? But wait, a Honda is worth the extra money coz' all the money goes into making sure the car will last 1,000,000 miles while the VW product will fail even before it leaves the showroom.
On a side note, if I were you, I'll wait for a 6 speed Accord EX Coupe though I'm sure the dealers will rape you if you get that the minute it hits the street. But I'm sure you or anony has a way to convince them that it is not worth $26k. Maybe $22k
I'm confused.
We bought a 4 cyl EX-L just for that reason. We leased it though and hopefully when the lease is up the 6 speeds will be more reasonable.
I mean really with the GTI at 7 out of 8 is there much bragging rights there?
What affects your insurance rate is theft rate, or whats the probability of it being stolen. Corvette & 911 dont make it to the top the most stolen list, but their theft rate is much much higher than the Civic.
The theft rate list is informative, so why dont people use it instead of that silly list? Well, its much harder to compile. You not only have to know how many thefts of a car model, you also have to estimate how many cars are on the road that year. But its doable, I bet some insurance institute have that kind of statistics.
Number of problems per 100 vehicles.
Coming in below the industry average at 178 problems is the Civic. Average is 147.
The GTI is 205 problems. Worse than Civic.
So if you purchased a GTI you could expect .27 problems per vehicle more than Si.
Big difference?
quote gee35 -The New Beetle has the worst quality reputation than any other recent VW and that's saying something.-end The New Beetle had BETTER quality than the Civic at 153 problems per 100 vehicles.
Even though gee35coupe and others state that reliability of the GTI is terrible compared to Honda the facts don't support this statement. GTI does have overall lower reliability than Honda cars. The difference is not significant in my opinion.
Here's the logic anony and gee35 will employ:
1. Dodge SRT-4 aka Neon
2. Mazda MazdaSpeedProtege
3. Focus SVT
4. Mini Cooper S
5. Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V
6. Hyundai Tiburon V6
7. VW GTI 1.8T
8. Honda Si
Right off the bad, Dodge and Ford will be eliminated. Reason being it is a Neon no matter how fast and how many recalls now for the Focus comes into mind. So, from the 8 we have 6 left. The Si moved up to notches to number 6 though still 6 out of 6.
Next the Tiburon and VW will be eliminated since they have questionable past and therefore questionable reliability in the future. Woohoo... Si now up another 2 notches. Number 4 though still 4 out of 4.
Let's see, we have MS Protege, Cooper S, Sentra Spec-V and Si.
Really now the race is bet. 2 4-door sedan and 2 3-door hatchback.
Essentially MS Protege vs. Sentra Spec-V
and bet. Cooper S and Si. Hm... I wonder what excuse anony and gee35 will give in order to bump up the Si?? Maybe the Cooper S MSRP of over $20k vs. the $19k for the Si? Oh silly me, the $25k of the Cooper S due to greedy salespeople vs. $15k of the Si?? Could it be the realibility of the Cooper S since it is built by BMW? Honda is known to be bulletproof in the past. So, the Si must be bulletproof too. Capable of driving past 1,000,000 miles. Or could it be the 15" rims on the Si with AS tires that they both love so much compared to the dangerous 17" shod w/ summer tires that will be threacerous to winter driving excuse they'll use to move the Si up a notch to the winner's podium. Maybe it is the good gas mileage of the Si and not needing premium wins it. Hmm... I wonder...
I know. It is the big H right in front of the Si. H means good quality, good resale, good reliability, good everything. That's it. Honda Si takes it. It is the winner!!!!
GTI finishing 7 and Si finishing 8 is nothing to brag about. It is relevant to the discussion of GTI vs. Si and I will post negative as well as positive information to provide viepoints other than my own and also since I am not closed minded and fanatical about VW or Honda.
Not only is the new car less exciting to drive and far less easy to tune than the old one, but the competition has moved forward while Honda is backpedaling.
The Si is so out of place in this group it placed last in every performance test but the slalom.
Gee35: Honda put that money in other areas of the car. What areas? The suede seats and fat steering wheel?
Best Feature:
The big-bolstered suede seats and small, fat steering wheel scream "driver's car."
Worst Feature:
Throw it into a bend and the Si flops over, the steering goes numb, and the tires squirm. The Si's behavior at the limit is very un-Honda.
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwardsResults.jsp
Look at the difference in ratings between a 98 Civic and a 98 GTI
VW also has below average customer service ... http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=635&CatID=1 target=_blank>http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=651&CatID=1
Wheel/tire size is no where on this list.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=651&CatID=1
hamproof: You were actually doing pretty good with that list till you got to the Protege, Cooper, SI, and Spec-V ... here's my reasoning on why I chose the SI ..
1. Dodge Neon .. need I say more?
2. MazdaSpeed Protege .. no sunroof, only 170HP with a turbo, $22,000 (with the extra $5,000 I can easily put a good turbo AND some 17's on my SI
3. Focus SVT .. need I say more?
4. Mini Cooper .. too small, too cute, too expensive, and yes .. quality is an issue. Edmunds is already have build quality issues with it's long-term Mini
5. Spec-V .. rear axle, interior is subpar, 2.5L in this size car is overkill and too heavy
6. Tiburon .. need I say more?
7. GTI .. again, it goes back to quality and reputation. I just don't see it in the GTI. I like the looks, I like the drive, but I don't like the unknown.
8. The SI is all that's left. Since I don't take my car to the track I don't care about it's slalom speeds or 1/4 mile. I like the looks even if nobody else does, I love the interior, and it promises to be just as reliable as any other Honda I've owned. For the $16,000 I paid this car couldn't be beat.
FYI. A 1998 VW GTI was the MK3 platform not the current MKIV. Not relevant to the current GTI.
Half of VW's lineup is on the CR "used cars to avoid" list.
CR has had to drop several categories from its reliability tables in the last decade or two because the newer cars simply didn't fail in those areas anymore.
If I bought a Hyundai, Mitsubishi, or VW tomorrow and took good care(regularly changing the oil, not abusing it, etc.) of it I have no doubt that they each wouldn't last 9-12 years at 12,000 miles a year which is all the I expect out of a car anyway.
I don't go harping about all Hondas lacking in the torque department incessently, do I?
And no I am not very impressed with Honda's powerplants like the S2000s that have a measly 153 lbs. or torque.
DO YOU CALL 153 lbs. of torque a real sports car?
And then you have to put up with its incessent engine racket all day while flogging the life out of the motor to get it into its stratosphereic power band. If you don't believe me ask C&D.
A VW TDI has 155 lbs of torque and it gets 700 miles to a tank of gas!
Anyway I see your attributes for a hot hatch are:
1.) reliability
2.) reliability
3.) erognomics/utility
4.) performance
Or at least that's the impression I'm getting.....