Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

inigoco

I agree with your reasoning on why the GTI didn't win that comparison, but first I'd like to comment on you. Why are you backing a car you don't even own? Especially when you've said yourself that you dislike FWD cars. What is your main purpose in backing the Si here when you don't even own either of the cars being compared here?

Anyway, back on the subject. I've read that story time and time again so I know what you're saying. With being fun to drive being the main 2 priorities, a go-kart, Jeep, or motorcycle could have won this test if only it hadn't been limited to hatchbacks. I really wish i had a scan of the whole article because the magazine shows a lot more data than the story online. They have the lap times for each car with a break-down of what the speeds and times were at various points. Plus, they have a break down of the point and how they were scored. It gives a lot more in-depth look into each vehicle and why it scored what it did. I haven't read the actual issue in a few months and I forgot to find it last night, but I'll see what I can do.

I just find it strange that you feel that the way they described the handling of the Civic is better than that of the GTI. Last I checked, a car that understeers and "eats it's outside tires for lunch" wasn't the best handler. Like it was said in the story, the Si is tuned for "safe stability" not track handling. Plus, don't you think that that little annoying problem of eating outside tires might have something to do with the Si having tires that are not up to the task? That being said, I'd say the Si and GTI are on an equal handling level. One has tires that are not made to handle the handling ability of the chassis and the other has more body roll than it needs. If it weren't for the shifter, the VW likely would have beaten out the Si, though it still would likely have been beaten by the Focus anyway.

Now, onto the next section, the performance part. You're fooling your self if you believe that the Si and GTI are closer in acceleration than was stated in the story. They even said themselves the the Si is 156 lbs. heavier than the old version and it has the same horsepower and a little more torque, so you can't expect the times to change that much and they didn't. The 0-60 times of a '99-00 Civic Si are listed as 7.9 sec on www.car-stats.com So, it's easy to assume that the new Si, being 156 lbs. heavier and only a slight gain in torque would post similar numbers.
As far as the GTI, there have been numerous tests of the GTI in all it's forms and they are all quite similar as well. The 150 HP version was tested at 7.3 sec. 0-60. The VR6 version with 174 HP and a little more weight ranges from 6.9 to 7.7. Now look at the New Beetle Turbo S which has essentially the same powertrain as the GTI except for the 6-speed tranny. The 0-60 times for that are 6.7 sec. So, again, like the Si, it's very easy to assume the actual times for both of the cars to be within a few tenths of a second of what the testers in C&D came up with. Plus, if we add in the Focus SVT, it has 170 HP, right in the middle of the Si and GTI and it's 0-60 time of 7.8 sec. is also between the Si and GTI. The reason the SVT's time is a lot closer to the Si is due to the fact that the GTI wins the torque battle quite handidly against both cars and torque is what creates acceleration.

Now for price. The C&D test assumed that the Si would be sold at MSRP, not a massivly discounted price, so they did the test giving each car an equal grounding. You, on the other hand, are giving the Si a handicap. Many others agree that at an equal price, the GTI wins out. It just seems tha buyers are not buying that the Si is worth the same as a GTI, and for good reason. What does the Si have that the GTI doesn't? By my count, only the Recaro seats. You can get Recaros for a GTI, but you have to get the 337 Edition which also includes larger brakes, a 6-speed trans, and upgraded handling. The GTI, on the other hand has heated seats, automatic up & down windows, lower-profile wheels and tires than the Si, better brakes than the Si, traction control, a 200 watt stereo w/ 8 speakers while the Si has 120 watts and 6 speakers, standard side airbags, which are an option on the Si and side-curtain airbags which aren't even offered on the Si. This is why the GTI is more expensive than the Si. It comes down to more than just handling or straight-line speed. Buyers of GTI's get a lot more for the money which is why they are willing to pay more for the GTI than the Si. Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but the case has been made and it's easy to see why buyers would choose a GTI, but it's also easy to see why buyer would choose an Si, especially with the price difference.

mikos

but, but, but.. I used to be a die hard Honda fan up until 2000. I went German and will never go back. For the sake of this discussion.. gather your buddies together. Go to the Honda dealer and have everyone drive a new Si.. then run across the street and drive a new GTI.. oh, with the VR6 and the 6SPD..

Now, come back to this discussion.. how many of you are still laughing from the rush you got from the GTI? How many of you are feverishly scratching your head trying to figure out how the heck you're going to afford the price difference? Oh.. but you will.. Why? Because now.. there is no comparison and you can't wait to have that rush every day.. The GTI is Gran Turismo!

muffin_man

I also agree that for an equal price, the GTI wins.

I think we got our lines crossed somewhere back there. Because I agreed all along that the Si was not worth MSRP, and if I had to pay MSRP for both cars, I would have bought the GTI. (although I may not have said it in those words)

Also, I do own an Si, and I made quite a few references to my driving experience in my last post. (I even wrote exactly how much I paid and my APR) I wanted a roadster, but wasn't sure I was ready to give up the convenience of 4 seats and a trunk (in the case of the MR-2) I think the GTI is a great car, but I don't think (and this is my opinion) that it's worth $3,500+ more than I paid for my car.

This reminds me of arguments with Miatas. It could almost be described as gutless, yet it's very very pleasurable to drive. It's the best selling sports car of all time.

Cars are not composed of numbers and features, they are complete packages. That's very important to remember. The Si can give up everything you say to the GTI, and still win a comparison, because it's just a fun car.

The reason I argue for the Si, isn't even because I own one. It's because many people act as if the Si is the worst thing that Honda has ever done, and that's without even driving the car. I want to make sure that people give it a fair shake.

rickrover

That's it I HAVE to get out and test an SI - this weekend for sure. The SI wasn't out when I got my 02 GTI 1.8t so it wasn't on my compare list back then. Cost was an issue though, a few thousand dollars did make up my mind on the GTI, so did the fact that it's so inexpensive to modify. The other car that made the final two on my list was a base Mercedes C230k - back then they weren't giving discounts on the C230k, a 6 speed was $25k - $26k the way I wanted with two minor options (17" wheel package and Xenons). Now my local MB dealer is discounting the 02's $3,500! If they did that last year I'd very likely be in the MB. I AutoX'd my GTI last weekend at an SCCA event, I was suprised to see how many C230k's were there - 4 or 5, they did very well. Another car that did great were the older modified Civics by the way. My GTI is a fantastic AutoX vehicle too as are Miata's and MR2's.

I take magazine test comparisons with a grain of salt. Testing a car is one of the most subjective things anyone can do - everyone approaches it from a different persective. I'd never let a test comparison in some biased, hack magazine sway me toward a particular car. I get out there and do my own comparisons with the sales person grabbing the dash and stomping on his imaginary brake pedal for most of the test drive :-)

muffin_man

I look forward to hearing your opinion on the Si. However, I'm sure it's going to pale in comparison to your little monster.

And my first choice for a car was an MR-2. But it's probably the most impractical car made, and it would probably have run me at least $6-7,000 more than the Si.

rickrover

I recently tested an MR2 with the sequential shift transmission - I haven't had that much fun in a long time. The MR2 is an absolute blast to drive. It would be my first choice in a heartbeat if it weren't so impractical, no luggage space whatsoever, just some cubbies behind the seats, I need an all around car with a hatch and rear seat.

I plan to head out to the Honda dealer this afternoon for an SI test drive.

jsg5

I've now test driven both the 2003 Si and GTI, and I have to say, I'm leaning toward leaving Honda after owning them for 20 years. The VW is clearly faster, at least in the around town type driving I'm likely to do, and the GTI's interior is simple and classy compared to the Civic's busyness. I can't stand that metallicized plastic console over the shifter, and for me the driving position was not that comfortable- the steering wheel requires you to extend your arms too much.
Having said all that I'm still leery of the VWs. The Civic is a good car, and I've had great reliability with all my Hondas. How's VWs recent record? I know their past is not so hot, but things seem to be improved. Appreciate any feedback.

anonymousposts

If you are going to compare the SI which is $19,000 to a $21,000 GTI why not compare the GTI to a $23,000 RSX.

Buy what you like. You can make arguments either way for either vehicle. The SI has a better tranny but the GTI faster. The GTI has better brakes but the SI handles better. For me, at $16,000 the SI was an unbeatable deal especially when taking into account VW's iffy reliability.

jsg5

Not sure where you found the Si for 16K, but I'm in South Fla. and the best price I have so far is at the dealer invoice- 17,800. I was quoted 18,300 for the GTI so there's not much difference in money. Have not yet looked at the RSX, but I doubt it will be in the price range of either. A lot really comes down to personal preference- I prefer the VW, others may not. But it is the reliabilty issue that gives me pause.

anonymousposts

I guess the price depends on where you are because here in GA I got my first one for $16,300 including tint and when I totalled that one I got the next one for $16,900 including fog lights, splash guards, and mats. The GTI is a nice car, don't get me wrong. In July when I bought my SI I had a chance to buy a 01 GTI VR6 GLX w/ 17k for $15,500 (kinda says something about it's resale value huh?) but VW's reliability scared me away.

jfigueroa1

You can buy a civic si in south florida for around 16,700 at braman honda or rick honda.
Greetings from sunny Miami.

gotenks243

"In July when I bought my SI I had a chance to buy a 01 GTI VR6 GLX w/ 17k for $15,500 (kinda says something about it's resale value huh?) but VW's reliability scared me away. "

Going to KBB.com and looking at how much used GTIs would be worth, a GLX like you describe is worth $16.8k private party value in "fair" condition. In "good" it would be $18.1k. To get an '01 model year down to $15.5k it took a GLS in "fair" condition. Edmunds Used TMV prices were slightly lower, but still, that price you were offered almost seems like an anomaly. VW resale value is generally regarded very highly.

If resale value was really a concern for anyone, I don't think the '02 Si has good resale in its future. If you have to give it away (well below invoice) to get people to buy a new one...

And on the subject of reliability, while Honda may be the benchmark, besides window regulator issues, VW has been making strides in recent years, as have many other car manufacturers. So, basically, I don't see why it scared you away that much.

Mike

muffin_man

I'm with you, after driving the MR2 I was very sold, but I had promised myself never to buy anything the first time I went to a dealership.

nippononly

NHTSA website for either VW Jetta or new beetle for the last three years or so. We wil have to wait to see if they are really making the strides you refer to. In the meantime, I would go with the Honda for reliability. As far as resale, since they can't give them away new, I think SI's will become to the normal Honda low-depreciation rule. Lease one instead, and leave the problem of resale to the dealer.

anonymousposts

gotenks: If you do trade in value on kbb.com you will see that a GLX in good condition is worth 15,900. This particular one was clean but the guy had springs on it and an exhaust. That probably drove the value down a bit. If I go and option a new GLX the price is $25,000 MSRP .. that's a drop of almost $10,000 in a little over a year. That's not good in my book. Compare that to my 2000 SI which had a MSRP of $17,500 and now almost 3 years and 33,000 miles later kbb puts it at $11,300 trade. That's only a loss of $6,000 with twice the miles and twice the age as the VW.

My 2002 SI may not hold crazy value like the 99-00's but it should hold it just as well as a Prelude, which they had a problem selling too. A nice clean Prelude will still get good money because they are rare just like the 02 SI's are going to be. Honda's problem isn't that the SI is bad I just think they tried to sell too many of them. They shoulda taken a clue from Ford and Mazda when it comes to projected sales. Ford brought 5000 SVT's here and Mazda is bringing 2000 MS3's .. that's a more reasonable number. With the economy kinda in the gutter right now it's hard to justify a $19,500 small hatchback .. now if more people knew you could buy them for around $17,000 it might be different.

VW"s reliability scares me away because I work for a car dealer and see them come in every day with various problems and our buyers will tell you to stay away from VW products. Plus, like I said, the 01 I was looking at had the sorry 2/24 warranty which only gives you 2 years of coverage for the thing that goes wrong on VW's the most .. electricals.

gotenks243

Actually, those resale values work out pretty closely. Basing it with the MSRP of the GTI between $23-24k (they probably went for under sticker when new though, I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether or not the Si went under sticker either), the GTI retained in the mid-60s, percentage-wise, of its value. The Si did the same.

With the '02 Si apparantly not being as desirable as its predecessors though, is there really going to be a strong enough demand for it to keep its resale value up? The Prelude's resale value is impressive, about equal to the GTI's (about $23k-ish MSRP down to $15.5k trade-in for an '01 17k), but I still have my doubts about the '02 Si. Only time will tell, of course.

Mike

anonymousposts

But the difference is that the GTI only held 60% of it's value after 1 year while the SI retained approx 65% of it's value after 2 years and twice the mileage.

moparbad

The 99-00 Si was only available for two years and was always scarce. You are comparing value, and supply/demand with quality and desireability and performance. This is a poor comparision is not really fair. Try comparing the limited edition GTI 337 MSRP $22,335 with the Si. Used 337's sell for more than MSRP new. How is that for retained value? Not a fair comparision is it? The 99-00 Si was a car that was actually popular compared to the current Si which is unpopular and difficult for dealers to get rid of.

anonymousposts

Setting the 99/00 SI aside and a Civic LX 5-speed (far from rare, it is the most popular Civic model) still holds aprox 58% of it's value over the same 2 year 33,000 mile time period as the SI. Still better than 1 year of depreciation for the VW. And I have seen some very clean 00 SI's still get around $17,000, which is how much it cost when new, so the 337 doesn't impress me yet. Especially when they only sold 1500 337's vs. 30,000 SI's over a two year period.

nippononly

Hondas are ridiculously good in terms of depreciation - almost nothing out there can beat them. One COULD conceivably ask whether this depreciation rate relative to the rest of the market is truly deserved nowadays...

gotenks243

Well, the KBB trade in on a 2000 GTI GLX with 33k in Good is still $14,180. Assuming a $24k sticker, that's about 59%, so that's about even too. They do say that most of the depreciation comes in the first year, don't they?

(BTW, sorry for my earlier mistake...I'm normally thorough but didn't catch that I was comparing an '00 to an '01).

Mike

inigoco

Check out this link from a report done here on Edmunds regarding resale values and automakers. http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/70532/article.html

This report lists VW as the industry leader in True Cost of Ownership. The winner is chosen by using a set of variables that take into account the true cost of ownership such as fuel, repairs, derpiciation and others. These values are averaged and compared to the others in the industry. Well, the VW Passat came out on top in its class and VW as a company won out over all other non-luxury brands. The new generation VW's have very high resale values provided they are treated well. If you abuse a car, don't expect to get your money's worth out of it. GTI's and other lower volumes models like the GLI Jettas and Beetle Turbo S's will also likely have even higher resale values due to the fact that they are special models that are not as mass-produced as the others.

In response to earlier posts on resale value and sales prices. The person who saw the '01 GTI for $15,500 or whatever it was. That is a very cheap price and there was likely something major wrong with the car or it had been totalled and rebuilt. The values you find on KBB.com mean different things. You can't compare the trade-in value of $15,900 to the selling price of $15,300 and say that the springs and such brought the value down. The trade-in value is the value you should expect to get from the dealer if you want to trade-in your car. They will not give you what it is worth or else they wouldn't be able to sell the car for a profit. This is why there is also a section for Private Party values. These values give you what you should be looking for pricewise for a vehicle with the options and mileage specified. This price shows what a dealer or private seller would sell the car for. This is what your vehicle is actually worth, not the trade-in value. The Private Party value is the much more accurate value for a vehicle and it is also what the deprication of the vehicle will be based on.

anonymousposts

A GLX actually goes for closer to $26,000 new so that brings the % down to around 55%. $11,000 worth of depreciation in 2 years is ridiculous if you ask me. Granted that the percentage is based off of MSRP but according to you all the VW is so hot that people pay close to MSRP.

8u6hfd

that's because there's a narrow margin between MSRP and invoice

gotenks243

'00 GTI GLX MSRP was something like $23,145 including destination. I think '01 was $23,450. An '02 24v VR6 (gains 26hp, 6spd, ESP over previous models) optioned out with the GLX equipment is still $25,220. That isn't quite $26k.

Mike

inigoco

"And I have seen some very clean 00 SI's still get around $17,000, which is how much it cost when new, so the 337 doesn't impress me yet. Especially when they only sold 1500 337's vs. 30,000 SI's over a two year period."

The reason VW only sold only 1500 337's was not because of lack of demand. They had only planned on bringing over that many to the US in the first place. It was made as a limited edition model. VW actually raised the number available to about 1750 if I recall due to the hot demand of the vehicle. The comparison to the Si in this sense doesn't compare. It's better to compare the sales of the GTI to the Si since they are the actual competitors. Comparing the 337 to a rarer Si version, like an SiR would be more correct.

anonymousposts

I was comparing the GTI to the SI and then someone said not to compare the 2 because the SI was too rare and that I should compare the SI to the 337 .. but now I shouldn't compare the SI to the 337 .. you guys need to make your mind up.

devoz

Just signed up for 15990, delivered, w/out side impact air bags. Also got an offer of 16500 with side impact air bags from a different dealer.

I was about to push on the Ford guys to lower their SVT price, hopefully to around 18G, (loaded), but 15990 for the Civic SI? Can't pass that up, and don't want to.

A little silver beauty is heading for my driveway in the next few days.

rickrover

Congrats on the SI - I still have to get out and test one -

hamproof

I think you meant the price before all of that, right?

devoz

Sorry for being unclear, thats the price with destination charges. Not with tax, title, registration, etc.

My feeling is that 15990 isn't the lowest you can get. The dealership was happy to sell the car and really rushed/worked to do it. Me? I am happy with the 16G price point.

How low will they go? My guess is 15K is definitely in the realm.

By the way, I think it was muffin_man who indicated that the SI was going for much lower than invoice, so my MANY MANY THANKS to you! I wasn't willing to pay 17.5+ for the SI, didn't seem like enough car.

devoz

anonymousposts

I'm with you devoz .. I didn' think the SI was a good $19,500 car or $18,000 car but for $16,000 it can't be beat. $16,000 would barely get you a more pedestrian Civic EX.

rickrover

I saw an ad in my local paper for a $15,900 SI.

I'm amazed that Honda is willing to take that kind of hit on one. I still haven't test driven one - can't wait to though - $6,000+ less than my GTI, unreal.

hamproof

Weekend paper in Detroit shows $16k before dest. Hopefully when one gets to the dealership, you can get dest. thrown in as well for $16k.

One thing I see is also all the 02 SI does not have the side airbags. Strange. For another $200+, it is a cheap option.

inigoco

Back onto the comparison topic. The Si shouldn't be compared to the 337 GTI because of rarity. Yes, the Si is a slightly rarer car than the GTI, but it's not as rare as the 337 GTI. Plus, even with the rarity of the Si, Honda still can't sell them at the MSRP, they have to lower the price by $3000-$4000 in order to compete. The 337 GTI on the other hand, was able to sell the entire stock at MSRP or even above in some cases. This is why the Si should be compared to the regular GTI. The number of cars sold shouldn't be much of an issue when buying a car, at least in my opinion. I don't look at how popular a vehicle is in order to decide on it, I let the car sell itself. If you test drive both cars and the Si steals your heart especially with a price less than MSRP, then buy it. If you decide on the GTI and it's price seems good compared to the features included, then buy it. It's all up to the buyer. I know I would never buy a car just because everyone else had one or said it was great. I'd have to see for myself.

anonymousposts

VW only sold 1500 337's. If Honda had only tried to sell 1500 SI's then they would already be gone at above MSRP. They underestimated the popularity of the 99-00 SI and that probably made them overestimate the demand for the 02 SI. 15,000 is a low production number but it's far from rare when you consider they are only making 5000 SVT's and 2000 MazdaSpeed 3's. I'll bet that there will be far fewer 2003 SI's brought over here.

rickrover

The 337 isn't much more than a trim package on a regular GTI, the only major mechanical differences are the 6 speed which doesn't make it any faster (also in the Turbo S Beetle), slightly larger brakes (from it's cousin Audi TT)and some very minor suspension tweaks(again from the TT). The engine is the normal tried and true 1.8 liter 20 valve turbo.

Now VW is about to bring a really different and rare Golf over here - the R32, it's been released in Europe and selling like hotcakes over there. The R32 is GTI with a 240 HP 3.2 liter VR6, dual exhaust, 6 speed, ALL WHEEL DRIVE (4Motion), 18" wheels, Bi-Xenon's, deeply bolsterd Konig sport seats, aggressive suspension, huge brakes - total performance in the WRX and Lancer EVO realm. It is also heavy on the luxury, Alacantra (suede) seat inserts, auto climate control, rain sensing wipers, headlight washers, Navigation system, etc. No word on how many of these little monsters VW will import to the U.S. I'd suspect no more than 1,500 due to the fact that they will cost around $30k+. R is to VW what M is to BMW and AMG is to Mercedes - all out European performance. Apparently VW is going to have R versions of many of it's models in the future.

It will be interesting to see if VW can pull off selling out it's allocation of the R32 at over $30k a pop - basically the price of 2 SI's.

VW sold every 02 W8 Passat they brought over here at close to $40k each - again 1,500.

gsgman69

"VW sold every 02 W8 Passat they brought over here at close to $40k each - again 1,500."

I beg to differ on this point. I was at the VW dealer in Austin, TX(Hewlitt) today and saw a W8 4motion discounted from 37,500 to 34,900.............

rickrover

The 2 VW dealers I'm familiar with sold their allotment awhile back. My sales person said they were sold out around the country as far as she knew. It sounds like some parts of the country still have a few left. She said VW is coming out with a sport model W8 in 03 with 1" wheels, sport suspension and 6 speed manual transmission - I'll be taking one of those for a test spin.

inigoco

The 337 is more than just a cosmetic upgrade. It includes the upgrades rickover mentioned, 6-speed, larger brakes and a better, lowered suspension. But it also includes 18" BBS wheels, a revised air dam, side skirts, rear spoiler and Recaro seats as well. There are a few other additions to the interior that are simply for show and exclusivity and don't need to be mentioned.

VW actually created this model to commererate the 25th anniversary of the GTI in Europe, they brought it here due to the demand of buyers wanting to buy the car here. So, VW originally decided to bring 1500 over in order to satisfy those buyers. the demand was much higher than they expected and the actual number brought over was raised to 1750 due to the demand. It's likely VW could have easily sold many more of the 337 edition GTI's had they cjosen to, but the number sold was kept low so that the model would be a collectors item since it does commererate an important event.

The R32 on the other hand, is not really as different as you may believe. In Europe the Golf is available with the VR6 and a 4-door version. Here it's only available as a 2-door in the GTI. 4-motion is also an available option over there as well on the Golfs, though it's only available here on the Passat. The R32 is pretty much to the Golf what the 337 is to the GTI, not a huge difference, just upgrades where needed. The likelyhood of the R32 making it to our shores is slim, but could happen I suppose. it all depends on whether or not people would be willing to pay about $30K or more for a Golf. I say it's possible since people were willing to pay $22K and more for a 337 edition with no 4-motion and the 1.8T. If the R32 does make it here, it will likely be a very low volume car much like the 337 with output in the area of that of the 337. If you want to read up more on the R32 check out www.vwvortex.com and click on the link to the R32 test drive on the front page. That should give you all the info you need.

How does this all compare to the Si again. Well, as stated in an earlier post, if the Si were limited to only 1500 units they would have sold every one of them at MSRP or maybe more. This may be true, but it's not the case. This is again why the Si and 337 should not be compared. The Si was created to be to Honda what the GTI is to VW, the highest end version of their sport-compact car. Each is made to compete with the other and the number of units called for is usually about the same as well. The Si was originally stated to sell about 12,000-18,000 units, but has fallen below that target and thus Honda was forced to sell the Si's for about $3,000-$4,000 less than MSRP in order to get rid of their inventory. The GTI on the other hand, also likely has about the same sales target per year and must usually sell within that number since VW has not had to lower the price of their GTI's as much if at all in order to seel the projected number of units.

Now, if Honda were to come out with the Civic SiR as they may do in a year or two. They will likely expect to sell far fewer versions, maybe closer to the 1750 that the 337 sold. They may likely sell that number since the SiR is expected to come with the 200HP version of the 2.0L found in the RSX Type-S as well as a 6-speed and a better wheel and tire fitment in addition to other upgrades probably not unlike the 337 GTI. This is where the true comparison lies. It is not correct to compare the Si to the 337 juast because of the sales numbers, you have to look at what the car was originally meant to compete against in the first place.

anonymousposts

The current SI will not hold it's value at a crazy level like the 99-00 SI's but it will be on average with every other car in it's class and still probably better than most. I'm kinda glad that they didn't sell like hotcakes because it allowed me to get one for $16,300. There is not a better new car out there for $16,300.

Why not compare the 337 to the RSX-S if it's not meant to compete with the SI (I will agree there though because the 337 is in the low-to-mid 20's while a SI tops out at $19,700. A RSX-S can be had for somewhere around $22,000. That seems like a more fair comparison anyhow.

rickrover

I could see how an RSX could be considered more of a direct competitor to the GTI or 337 as long as you factor in what an SI is actually selling for. The RSX is a Civic in Japan after all.

I saw a black SI in traffic today and followed it for awhile - I like the rear styling, very European IMO. The fact that the SI is so rarely seen on the roads is a big plus as well and that price just can't be beat - it is a bargain.

Now for the R32 - Here is a news flash from Autoweek, I saw this today:

 Volkswagen chairman Bernd Pischetsrieder confirmed to AutoWeek the performance-oriented R32 Golf is indeed coming to the U.S. market. We last reported a decision on whether to sell the car stateside was dependent on whether it could meet U.S. crash standards.

Apparently, the car passed the tests because now Pischetsrieder is saying the R32 will arrive within the next year as a 2004 model.

The R32’s launch date depends upon how quickly the car can be adapted to meet U.S. certification standards, he says.

Expect 5000 to 10,000 R32s priced somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000 to be earmarked for the United States, although Pischetsrieder left the door open for more if demand exists. Technical changes from the 237-hp European R32 will be limited only to those required under U.S. standards.

5,000 to 10,000!!! starting at $25k!!! Sign me up!!! Seriously - I dropped my GTI off at my dealer for service today, I'm writing a deposit check for an R32 when I pick it up.

I know VW sells a VR6 4Motion Golf in Europe - I've seen and sat in one. The R32 is VW's answer to the WRX and Lancer EVO VII. Knowing the VW performance tuning scene like I do - I can't wait to see the performance goodies that will be available for the R32. I want a 300 HP all wheel drive hatchback - the R32 appears to be my ticket.

Check this out - The VW R32 German website:

http://www.vw-online.de/golf/popup_r32_flash.htm

The sound of that 3.2 VR6 is awesome - download the movie as well

seguy

I was at my local honda dealer that had 10 on their lot. This is especially amazing since this in Colorado Springs. My salesperson that I've done business with before told me they've only sold 2. They were all priced between $16.5K-$19K. Most in the $16K range. One or two had aftermarket wheels/tint/etc to jack the price up. Well driving impressions were that it felt heavier than it's size(ala GTI). The things I liked were the seats and shifter, but other than that, my GTI feels better overall. The power was very dissappointing. I test drove a 2 door EX and it accelerated the same, just not as settled as the Si's handling manners. Still not a bad car for $16.5K, but for another $2K, you can get a GTI with comparable equipment.

muffin_man

devoz - congratulations on your car, I'm glad I was of help. As you know, there is nothing out there that touches this car for $16k. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do mine.

hamproof - the side airbags are a rare option for whatever reason, and apparently the cars either have them or they don't (ie - not a dealer install). I initially wanted side airbags, but despite being a $250 option, the dealer wouldn't give me one of the Si's w/ airbags for less than $900 more than the $15980 that I paid.

seguy - it's hard to get a good gauge of power on short test drives of (relatively) high reving cars.

I agree with inigoco, Si vs. GTI, and R vs. 337. However, I think the R is definitely the superior car to the 337.

devoz

Hi,

I have taken delivery of my SI, its solid, peppy, refined, basically, I am one happy car owner, just want to jump in the car and drive around!

Only minor issue is that there is "shaking" going on at a couple of different speeds. You can feel it in the wheel, in your feet, and sometimes in your seat ;-).

The dealership thinks this is due to the car sitting on the lot for a while without

being moved, (tires have little flat spots in them). I felt this shaking in another SI I test drove up around 75MPH. Mine shakes slightly at 45 and from 60-70, (I think at least 2 wheels/tires have issues).

The dealership says that they have spent some time trying to figure it out, and have even put the wheels/tires on a really good balancing machine at a different dealership that can even apply load to the wheel/tires (Hunter GSP-9700), but this didn't fix the problem.

I wasn't there to witness any of this, nor do I know if there are any special requirements for the wheels that come with the SI, nor can I pretend to be expert at this topic.

The dealer is now going to replace all four tires with brandy new ones. Hopefully this will fix the problem and I can move on.

Either way the dealership is motivating the repair, e.g. they are doing whatever has to be done to ensure that I am happy, and to be honest, its all a minor annoyance at best.

For a tutorial on wheel/tire balancing!, see

  http://www.gadgetonline.com/vibration.htm

anyway, after putting my SL2 at 160Kplus miles to rest, I am enjoying my next 8 year ride very much so far.

devoz

seguy

it wasn't any faster than the ex coupe. (The SI I drove already had 1100 miles on it, so I figured bringing it to redline a few times wouldn't hurt any. You're right, I normally don't take new cars to redline unless its strictly a demo.) And much slower than my GTI, remember I'm at 6000 ft, so that would explain the discrepancy between my 1.8T and the 2.0. But the weight difference between the SI and EX pretty much neutralized any power differences amongst the two. The SI is definitely a more solid and substantial car than the EX. Too bad they don't bring the 5-door over. Still a nice car for $16.5, but I myself would prefer to get a GTI for $18.5, or even the Hyundai GT. Although the style on the Hyundai takes a lot of getting used to. Maybe the redesign will help it in the future. Best wishes to any choice that you decide for yourself.

inigoco

OK, so say we compare the 337 GTI to the RSX Type-S or the Civic SiR since they will be pretty similar from what I've heard. The 337 is at least as fast as the Type-S, has upgraded brakes and and suspension over the reg. GTI, the RSX uses the same components. Type-S comes with uninspiring 16" wheels, the 337 comes with beautiful 18" BBS wheels. Both do come with a 6-speed transmission. The GTI has the 1.8T, so upgrading is cheap and effective. Still seems like the 337 at a similar price to the Type-S still wins. At least in my opinion. I really don't like the look of the new RSX. I did like the Integras more, especially the GSR's and Type-R's, but the RSX just isn't the same. Again, personal opinions are what will sell the car and I'm not sold on the Type-S, others may be though.

inigoco

I actually also live in Colorado Springs and I've been meaning to get out to test drive an Si so i can have a more accurate idea of what they are like. I have a feeling the altitude will make a difference to me as it was a factor in my getting rid of an '01 GTI VR6 for the '02 GTI 1.8T I currently own. Forced induction is a godsend when you live over 6000 ft so I expect the Si to feel pretty lazy compared to the GTI, but so do most naturally aspirated vehicles at this altitude. Just thought I'd add that in since there was another person from Colo Spgs posting on this thread.

anonymousposts

I've driven several Civic EX's and the power is no where near the SI nor is the engine as smooth. If you can't make a SI faster than a Civic EX then you don't know how to drive. And it would actually take another $4,000 to get a GTI if you go by www.carsdirect.com prices.

devoz: My tires had a slight vibration when I got my SI and it went away after about 2,000 miles. It sucked but now it's smooth riding at all speeds. Having shuttled alot of cars to and from different locations where I work I've seen that happen to any car that sits for a few weeks or more.

inigoco: Calling the RSX-S wheels uninspiring is a matter of preference. I happen to like them. You may get 18" wheels on the 337 but the car was $25,000+ and since they only sold 1500 and according to people in here they all sold at MSRP. So that means that the 337 is a few grand more than the RSX-S and it has less power out of a turbo engine. Take that $3,000 and get a turbo for the RSX-S and you won't even notice a Jet.. I mean Golf.

muffin_man

I think the RSX-S is definitely the superior performance car. And the Civic type-R (With 220 horsepower) would be even more so. I think the 337 is a nicely dressed up GTI, and it definitely takes the GTI out of the Si's league, but I don't think it then becomes comparable with the RSX-S or Si-R. Especially for the prices it was going for.